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Basic Tips , Getting a LOUDER mix , without destroying it
Old 5th June 2013
  #91
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Ok , so I took your guys advice and did more tweaks to the mix .

Fixed the Sibilance problem . Went in and automated the volume at all the trouble spots......oh god took forever .

Then to help make the vocal easier to hear , I EQed cut some 3.5K out of the guitars . Then I added a little EQ to the Guitars at 2.5K and 400hz .

I believe the guitars at 3.5K were covering up the vocal .
Attached Files
Old 5th June 2013
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Morrison View Post
Here is an updated master using the new version: Left Alone V3.mp3

Max: -0.5 dBTP
RMS: -12.4 dB
I'm out of CD's so I couldn't listen in the car . But on the computer speakers I can hear the improved low end for sure . Sounds more balanced . Sounds good!

I can hear the Sibilance problem that I just fixed too .

How much compression are you using ?
Old 6th June 2013
  #93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScumBum View Post
I'm out of CD's so I couldn't listen in the car . But on the computer speakers I can hear the improved low end for sure . Sounds more balanced . Sounds good!

I can hear the Sibilance problem that I just fixed too .

How much compression are you using ?
I am using a combination of serial and parallel compression with low ratios and low GR values.
Old 6th June 2013
  #94
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Dina Mastering's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScumBum View Post
Ok , so I took your guys advice and did more tweaks to the mix.
I like it. Listening at the same level, I like this mix more than any other mix or master I've been able to hear from this thread.

Maybe there's still some slight lo-mid mud that could be cleared. Maybe a touch of spatial could help. Like subtle verb overall or barely audible delay on vocal. But I like it like this. It sounds quite natural.

CLICK: there's a click just at the begining of the mix (and the masters) I heard.
Old 6th June 2013
  #95
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Mr. Lau's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScumBum View Post
Ok , so I took your guys advice and did more tweaks to the mix .

Fixed the Sibilance problem . Went in and automated the volume at all the trouble spots......oh god took forever .

Then to help make the vocal easier to hear , I EQed cut some 3.5K out of the guitars . Then I added a little EQ to the Guitars at 2.5K and 400hz .

I believe the guitars at 3.5K were covering up the vocal .
This is the best mix so far.

Hard work didn't took that much, dude. Be proud of yourself!

IMO there is still mud, I think it's on the guitar. Why don't you try putting a low shelf below 200 or so and turn down, like, 3dB? Also you could try boosting them a little above 4 or 5 K, maybe less boost at 2.5K, the vocals use that area too. Maybe less cut at 3.5K? experiment yourself. I am writing ideas that crossed my mind, may be wrong.

I think I hear some high pitched rings since the first mix, I notice 2 of them every time approx at 2:18 and 3:20, choruses, the higher pitched word 'alone'. Or is it a cymbal? heh

How wide would you like this track to be? Right now it sounds good to me, it has certain classic rock vibe, I don't die for super stereo width, but that's just my taste.

I kind of miss the 200-250 snare loud peak hahaha J/K

Can you tell us your tracking process? Just curious.

Later I will put your latest mix thru my gear mostly for some colour.

EDIT: Here is the file. Didn't tweak it much, only put a little verb as suggested above, to experiment. OTB chain gave some colour, not much else.
Attached Files

left alone jun 5 2013.mp3 (6.54 MB, 186 views)

Old 6th June 2013
  #96
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Spede's Avatar
 

Hello, here's my quick mastering from this tune. I sort of just tweaked it until it started rocking. I could imagine most (pro) mastering engineer's might be little hesitant with such drastic tweaking.

In reality the best way to get this song really rock would be simply mixing it that way; all the stems here (apart from el guitars) couldn't hurt little more compression overall. Used the last mix as basis.

My main focus was to get the low end more anchored and to keep the vocal present at all times while dealing with the esses.
Attached Files

Left_Alone_SpedeMaster.mp3 (3.14 MB, 234 views)

Old 6th June 2013
  #97
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Mr. Lau's Avatar
Good work Spede, it is not drastic as you said above, it is another approach.
Old 6th June 2013
  #98
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ScumBum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spede View Post
Hello, here's my quick mastering from this tune. I sort of just tweaked it until it started rocking. I could imagine most (pro) mastering engineer's might be little hesitant with such drastic tweaking.

In reality the best way to get this song really rock would be simply mixing it that way; all the stems here (apart from el guitars) couldn't hurt little more compression overall. Used the last mix as basis.

My main focus was to get the low end more anchored and to keep the vocal present at all times while dealing with the esses.
Yeah I can hear the low end more anchored . Those damn esses !!! Such a damn battle to tame them . I guess I need a different vocal mic .

Sounds good !
Old 6th June 2013
  #99
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ScumBum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lau View Post
This is the best mix so far.

Hard work didn't took that much, dude. Be proud of yourself!

IMO there is still mud, I think it's on the guitar. Why don't you try putting a low shelf below 200 or so and turn down, like, 3dB? Also you could try boosting them a little above 4 or 5 K, maybe less boost at 2.5K, the vocals use that area too. Maybe less cut at 3.5K? experiment yourself. I am writing ideas that crossed my mind, may be wrong.

I think I hear some high pitched rings since the first mix, I notice 2 of them every time approx at 2:18 and 3:20, choruses, the higher pitched word 'alone'. Or is it a cymbal? heh

How wide would you like this track to be? Right now it sounds good to me, it has certain classic rock vibe, I don't die for super stereo width, but that's just my taste.

I kind of miss the 200-250 snare loud peak hahaha J/K

Can you tell us your tracking process? Just curious.

Later I will put your latest mix thru my gear mostly for some colour.

EDIT: Here is the file. Didn't tweak it much, only put a little verb as suggested above, to experiment. OTB chain gave some colour, not much else.
I like the color , color is always good !

I think the reverb might be making it a little blurry sounding ? Don't know really how to describe it . In general , I usually like rock music dry sounding .

The ringing , not sure , I listened for it , but couldn't hear it . Maybe its not showing up on my speakers ?

I took a little more mud out of the guitars like you suggested . I was kinda hearing it too . Also I cut a couple dbs at 250hz on the bass guitar . Like I said earlier , those 002 converters add mud to EVERYTHING .

I think the mud in the Mix is pretty much gone .

I already paid Trakworx to Master it . Hes just waiting on me to send him the file .

Heres the "Final Mix"...........I hope......


Not sure what you'd like to know about tracking . If you have anything in mind let me know . It was just the standard process . You know , lots of Hippies hanging out , doing LSD helping my performances connect with the inner power and energy of the song then mix in some Digi Design , SM57's and a cow bell and voila......out plops Left ALone . Isn't that how all records are made ?
Attached Files

Left Alone - The Mix.mp3 (6.55 MB, 181 views)

Old 7th June 2013
  #100
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Mr. Lau's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScumBum View Post
It was just the standard process . You know , lots of Hippies hanging out , doing LSD helping my performances connect with the inner power and energy of the song then mix in some Digi Design , SM57's and a cow bell and voila......


No, dude, that is the creative process (cowbell?)

I was curious about the drum miking, the room, the guitar plugins (or miked amps?)

I think it's a band or were you (left) alone?

What was the approach to overdub the tracks? Tracking live full band performance, then tracking individual instruments?

Which instrument(s) did you play, are you the singer? The writer/composer/arranger?

You kept the drum kit relatively centered, it's OK, no problem, but since there's a lot of space in the stereo, I wonder why you didn't panned more the overheads (cymbals, toms)?

Et cetera...

https://www.box.com/s/l3ek3nqjljunaf4solby

I uploaded your last mix with my processing. Again, OTB for analog color more than too obvious processing. Trying to keep it natural, not changing your freq balance except ReaEQ pre distressor for shaping the compression action (no, ratio is not set to 'nuke' this time ), EQP1A post distressor to add more analog imperfections and 542 for the last touch; check 'silk' on low midrange. No reverb. L3 for limiting.

Straight up to -0.2 dBFS WAV, RMS... Oops didn't check, but it is around -10 or -9.

I don't have more compressors other than the 165's, 165A and Distressor. Not the kings of warmth or subtle character, but at least the Distressor is more versatile and has a wider range of sonic variations.

None of my toys were really necessary, I just love to tweak knobs
Old 7th June 2013
  #101
Until hearing Spede's master I didn't realize how dark the original mix was!

Here is my submission using the "Final Mix": Left Alone V6.mp3

Max: -0.9 dBTP
RMS: -11.0 dB
Old 8th June 2013
  #102
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ScumBum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lau View Post


No, dude, that is the creative process (cowbell?)

I was curious about the drum miking, the room, the guitar plugins (or miked amps?)

I think it's a band or were you (left) alone?

What was the approach to overdub the tracks? Tracking live full band performance, then tracking individual instruments?

Which instrument(s) did you play, are you the singer? The writer/composer/arranger?

You kept the drum kit relatively centered, it's OK, no problem, but since there's a lot of space in the stereo, I wonder why you didn't panned more the overheads (cymbals, toms)?

Et cetera...

https://www.box.com/s/l3ek3nqjljunaf4solby

I uploaded your last mix with my processing. Again, OTB for analog color more than too obvious processing. Trying to keep it natural, not changing your freq balance except ReaEQ pre distressor for shaping the compression action (no, ratio is not set to 'nuke' this time ), EQP1A post distressor to add more analog imperfections and 542 for the last touch; check 'silk' on low midrange. No reverb. L3 for limiting.

Straight up to -0.2 dBFS WAV, RMS... Oops didn't check, but it is around -10 or -9.

I don't have more compressors other than the 165's, 165A and Distressor. Not the kings of warmth or subtle character, but at least the Distressor is more versatile and has a wider range of sonic variations.

None of my toys were really necessary, I just love to tweak knobs



I'm just a one man band . I played everything and did the vocals .

The fabulous room is my garage , haha.....But Its actually a decent room . The ceiling is vaulted and goes up to 16 feet at the peak . I measured the room size one time and the cubic air space , (I think thats what its called) was just right at the lowest size a Pro Studio should be .

I record a scratch guitar and scratch vocal to a click , then record the drums to that . The gear I used is listed here https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8995703-post125.html


7 mics on drums ,

Kick
Snare Top
Snare Bottom
Rack Tom
Floor Tom
Overhead Left
Overhead Right


Then recorded guitars , Orange AD30 single channel Head , Orange 4x12 cab , SM57 . Recorded two tracks for rhythm guitar , Left and Right ,

Then recorded bass , went direct .

Then recorded vocals .

Then recorded the Solo . I used a cheap $50 Marshall practice amp and a sm57 .

Thats pretty much it . Then tried to use the LEAST amount of plugins/processing as possible .
Old 8th June 2013
  #103
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ScumBum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Morrison View Post
Until hearing Spede's master I didn't realize how dark the original mix was!

Here is my submission using the "Final Mix": Left Alone V6.mp3

Max: -0.9 dBTP
RMS: -11.0 dB
Thanks I'll download it .


So I sent the song to Trakworx to Master it . When I get it from him I'll post it here . Then it will be time to compare and see how they all sound .

It will be cool to load them all into a Pro Tools session and compare .
Old 8th June 2013
  #104
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Mr. Lau's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScumBum View Post
I'm just a one man band . I played everything and did the vocals .
I applaud you, it's hard to do everything yourself, and mixing your own material is even harder, but you are on the right way!

Is the garage treated?
Old 8th June 2013
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lau View Post
I applaud you, it's hard to do everything yourself, and mixing your own material is even harder, but you are on the right way!

Is the garage treated?
+1. I think you are doing something neat and it's important that people keep different styles of recording and producing alive so others can hear the difference.
Old 9th June 2013
  #106
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ScumBum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lau View Post
I applaud you, it's hard to do everything yourself, and mixing your own material is even harder, but you are on the right way!

Is the garage treated?
Thanks

No the garage is not treated . Just a bunch of junk everywhere like a typical garage , but maybe all that stuff is actually treatment because it eats up the sound , keeps sound from bouncing around ?

Its ALOT OF WORK trying to be a one man band . If you just sing in a band , thats just one job . Then add all the other instruments , plus engineer and mix . So that makes it 6 times the work , time and effort !
Old 9th June 2013
  #107
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ScumBum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiyn Zahav View Post
+1. I think you are doing something neat and it's important that people keep different styles of recording and producing alive so others can hear the difference.
Thanks ,

What do you see as different in my style of recording ? Is it because its a basic approach , minimal processing , no drum samples , no pitch correction ?
Old 10th June 2013
  #108
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Mr. Lau's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScumBum View Post
Thanks

No the garage is not treated
I asked this because I think the low end mud is a room issue, like there is no bass trapping.

Though it's little mud, it was always there, every one of your mixes. Please don't bash the poor Digi oo2

I give you +1000 for doing this track all by yourself. Playing all instruments and singing (and writing the song!) is not a walk in the park, and then mixing it, wow. And little processing, double wow!

I'd like to listen to more of your works.
Old 11th June 2013
  #109
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ScumBum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lau View Post
I asked this because I think the low end mud is a room issue, like there is no bass trapping.

Though it's little mud, it was always there, every one of your mixes. Please don't bash the poor Digi oo2

I give you +1000 for doing this track all by yourself. Playing all instruments and singing (and writing the song!) is not a walk in the park, and then mixing it, wow. And little processing, double wow!

I'd like to listen to more of your works.

Thanks man ! I don't have anything else finished right now of my solo project , just this song . I think I did a pretty good job , but I think the song lacks some emotion/feel/vibe . I'm gonna change my approach for my next song . I started a thread on here about my theory , which is , the takes with the best emotion are usually 1-5 , if you go crazy , like 30 takes , you'll get more technically perfect takes but they will start to loose emotion/vibe/feel . With Left ALone I went for perfection , lots of takes , looking for perfection and in the process got everything really tight , but sacrificed the emotion . Also I'm unsure about using a click , which I used with Left ALone , I'm on the fence right now about using a click . For my next song I'm going for more emotion , less perfection , gonna only use takes 1-5 , and if I don't nail it with 5 takes , gonna stop recording , practice more , and try again later .
Old 11th June 2013
  #110
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Alright guys , heres the Master that Trakworx did . It sounds great !!
Attached Files

Left Alone 16-44.mp3 (6.58 MB, 798 views)

Old 11th June 2013
  #111
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Mr. Lau's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScumBum View Post
Alright guys , heres the Master that Trakworx did . It sounds great !!
Oh, I see you didnt want the lower midrange bump ! Yeah, that's better. I always left it alone heh

More variations would be great thru the song too, IMHO
Old 6th November 2013
  #112
Gear Addict
 
Tommy Zai's Avatar
I recently wrote a little user review for MeldaProductions MMultiBandLimiter. I think it's relevant to this thread. I hope potential limiter plugin buyers find it helpful.

*Disclaimer: I'm a songwriter, producer, and educator. My writing style may read like a billboard ad, but my user review is sincere and authentic. I only appraise a product I consider extraordinary, hence the high rating. I don't work for the developer. In fact, I rarely work at all. :-) I hope you find my review useful. — Tommy Zai

MMultiBandLimiter by MeldaProduction is a brickwall limiter that pushes the limit by adding some tasty flavor. During my research, I discovered many plugins that could make music louder, but this one goes much further by increasing sound character and quality without adding a lot of unwanted goo. It not only raises the volume level, it also improves the sonic quality of a track by adding analogue-type saturation and balancing the spectrum. MMBL has a streamlined interface that features a basic page with four big knobs (drive, distortion, squash, master), a column of options (maximizers, number of bands), and an easy-to-read meter. Advanced features and micro editing are found on a secondary edit page, including one of my favorites — spectral smoothing. I wish I could trust my ears to smooth things out, but I’m a visual person. With this plugin I can see the music loudness levels and that really helps me sound design, track, mix, and master.

PROS
• Bi-level interface with a simple mode and advanced “edit” mode
• Randomization, which helps generate new parameters
• Safety limiter to prevent unwanted spikes and distortion
• MIDI learn
• Easy preset management
• Excellent developer support (communication and frequent updates)
• Lifetime FREE updates

CONS
• I couldn’t find any, but I felt compelled to write something in this space. ?

CONCLUSION
When I’m on-the-fly with sparks shooting off my fingers and smoke coming out of my ears I can quickly and easily turn those big fat knobs until I get the desired results. And, when I’m fine-tuning, I can go to the edit page and tweak to make precise adjustments. This limiter is easy to use, powerful, and sounds great! What more could I ask for? It’s priced fairly, and is a steal if purchased as part of a bundle. I highly recommend MMultiBandLimiter to any eMusician, producer, or sound designer, who is looking for a limiter that does more than make things louder. Tommy Zai gives MMultiBandLimiter two unlimited thumbs up. Thank you Melda for creating such useful tool.

Last edited by Tommy Zai; 6th November 2013 at 11:15 PM.. Reason: Grammar
Old 8th November 2013
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
awww damn...dat **** hella funny
Old 8th November 2013
  #114
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Birdland101's Avatar
Should a mix be flat?
Old 12th November 2013
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
LETS LERN how to MASTER!! - YouTube


Turn up your volume control. That's the only way to do what you want. In order to make it "loud" (you don't have control over the listener's volume knob, so nothing you do will actually change how loud they listen), you have to bring up the level in the digital domain. There's only so far you can go before the peaks reach "0". There's nothing can you do from there but destroy the peaks in order to bring up the low-level stuff. The very process of that changes the sound, there's no violating the laws of physics, end of story.
I'm all for boosting the master enough so that peaks start to crash a little bit at 3-5 dbs+. It not only makes sure your mix is right up there with the louder shat on the internet, but it also adds that little bit of extra energy to the track during the peak parts. Kind of like a blast of solar radiation will distort signals, so maybe your mix should too.

That's when you know youre really thumping, is when you hear that small tear in your speaker cone. People instinctively turn their volume dial to what ever level they like. By adding some gain to the mix, you are simulating that moment where your speaker begins to shred, but you are actually doing it a lower level, and thus savings peoples ear drums.

I know some people hate it, but I like a slightly busted signal during the climax for some songs.

If your wanting radio or t.v. play, you'll probably have to have it on level with the rest of the playing field, and want it mastered professionally, therefore keep your levels down.

Last edited by Juicebox; 13th November 2013 at 06:59 AM..
Old 12th November 2013
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdland101 View Post
Should a mix be flat?

Depends on the mix, and what you mean by flat.

Never adhere to any rules as far as flat and punchy are concerned. If it sounds good and has a good vibe flat, keep it flat, but if it needs something, try some punch. If you want to post it, i'll give it a listen.
Old 13th November 2013
  #117
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Birdland101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicebox View Post
Depends on the mix, and what you mean by flat.

Never adhere to any rules as far as flat and punchy are concerned. If it sounds good and has a good vibe flat, keep it flat, but if it needs something, try some punch. If you want to post it, i'll give it a listen.
I have no issues, I mentioned it on the mastering forum, when you hand a mix to a mastering engineer, would it be better if it was flat a flat balanced response... from bass to high freqs... then all the punch etc is done by the mastering engineer, if its flat and he decides to compress things he will have a better shot at getting it right.. just a thought...and speculation.
Old 29th November 2013
  #118
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Getting a louder mix without destroying it...

When mixing shoot for balancing the sound & creating space and less about compressing the hell out of everything. Compressors should be banned.

Your best friends are eq and reverb, your second best friend who you are allowed to hang out with only on special occasions is the compressor. The limiter is not your friend...
Old 29th November 2013
  #119
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Birdland101's Avatar
As they say compressors are for children lol
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