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How's this mix? (Pop/rock) Condenser Microphones
Old 19th December 2010
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

How's this mix? (Pop/rock)

Hi All,

I'm trying to wrap this one up before sending it of for mastering. I re-mixed it last night. Mainly interested in how the vocals are fitting in with the rest of the tracks, but any tips would be good.

Title: "Why Did You Lie?"

Thanks a bunch!

Tom

SONG IS NOW IN POST # 40

Song is © 2010

Last edited by TCW; 23rd December 2010 at 09:02 AM.. Reason: Added 2nd mix
Old 19th December 2010
  #2
Gear Head
 

I think this sounds great, especially the drums, they are pretty far back in the mix, as I think was the goal, but great tone. I think the vocal sits a little bit too much on top of the mix, but for a pre-master I think this is ok... Once the master bus is limited (hopefully just a little) during mastering the vocal should gel better with the rest of the mix. So I would say a little common reverb on the entire mix or master bus compression, but if I was you, I'd just save that for the mastering engineer.

Nice work!
Old 19th December 2010
  #3
Lives for gear
 
john caldwell's Avatar
Sounds good overall.

1) The lead vocal falsetto Ooh's deserve more aggressive high pass. It's as though he moved close to the mic over concern for level, or perhaps it's just his resonances. Id also make those wetter than the chest voice parts. His subsequent falsetto on the open-vowel lines is fine.

2) Can't stand the special effect vocal panned far right at 2:26. I'd mute that.

Nice work.

John-
Old 19th December 2010
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
Andreas Leonhard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartofantares View Post
I think this sounds great, especially the drums, they are pretty far back in the mix, as I think was the goal, but great tone. I think the vocal sits a little bit too much on top of the mix, but for a pre-master I think this is ok... Once the master bus is limited (hopefully just a little) during mastering the vocal should gel better with the rest of the mix. So I would say a little common reverb on the entire mix or master bus compression, but if I was you, I'd just save that for the mastering engineer.

Nice work!

I agree!
Old 19th December 2010
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Thanks for the replies!

Are the vocals a little loud just in the verses or the chorus...or both?

Hey John, I turned down the verse falsetto parts and added a high pass since the last post a couple weeks ago. You still think they're too loud? Regarding that vocal effect at 2:26, I might take that out since you hate it. LOL.

I'll turn the drums up a bit and the vox down a tad and repost the results.

It's an interesting comment by heartofantares about adding verb to the whole mix. I'm not sure if the mastering engineer would do that or not. Have any of you done this successfully?

Tom
Old 20th December 2010
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
...I turned down the verse falsetto parts and added a high pass since the last post a couple weeks ago. You still think they're too loud?
Not too loud. Too woofy. Selecting a higher frequency for the HP should take care of it. As I mentioned earlier, I'd wet those brief lines down more as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
...Regarding that vocal effect at 2:26, I might take that out since you hate it. LOL...
I get your point, but I just don't hear a sound gimmick like that having a place in work like this. That's a complement to your work much more than it is a criticism of sound gimmicks.

John-
Old 20th December 2010
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
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Thanks, John! Here's a mix with the drums up, vox down a bit, higher pass filter for verse falsetto (but maybe not enough?) I must have some kind of frequency null in my studio, because the falsetto drops way down in volume through my studio monitors.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Let me know what you think of this mix. I still have to pull out that vox effect at 2:26
Attached Files

WDYL new mix.mp3 (5.43 MB, 296 views)

Old 20th December 2010
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

This sounds good.. the vocals are a tad dry. I love the ooh's i'd dampen them a little with a nice hall reverb
Old 20th December 2010
  #9
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monsieur x's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
Thanks, John! Here's a mix with the drums up, vox down a bit, higher pass filter for verse falsetto (but maybe not enough?) I must have some kind of frequency null in my studio, because the falsetto drops way down in volume through my studio monitors.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Let me know what you think of this mix. I still have to pull out that vox effect at 2:26
You still didn't get the EQ on the woOoos perfect, and I believe there is too much separation/disconnect between the panned tracks, especially the vocal overdubs.

Also, I might be crazy to say this, but this mix might be a little too "straight". Is that what the artist wants? If so, please disregard.

Regardless, I think you could find ways to give the mix more identity. . .

Best,
Old 20th December 2010
  #10
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Oh, and as a few others mentioned:

More reverb and wash on the track in general might help a bit.

The mix definitely sounds like a proper product, so please do not take what I've said the wrong way.

Cheers,
Old 20th December 2010
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monsieur x View Post
You still didn't get the EQ on the woOoos perfect, and I believe there is too much separation/disconnect between the panned tracks, especially the vocal overdubs.

Also, I might be crazy to say this, but this mix might be a little too "straight". Is that what the artist wants? If so, please disregard.

Regardless, I think you could find ways to give the mix more identity. . .

Best,
Thanks, Albert! great advice on the backing vocal panning.

The artist is me on all tracks except the drums, so I have full authority here. LOL. What could I do to "unstraighten" this mix?

Also, do you have specific approaches to adding reverb the whole mix? (i.e. reverb type, predelay, length)
Old 20th December 2010
  #12
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Hey TCW,

Happy you're getting some good ideas from this thread.

I would try setting up two reverbs. One short, and one long.

Some of the slightly "disconnected" elements will benefit from more of the short. And then I'd give everything more or less the same amount of long.

Also, I wouldn't be afraid to add a little bit of delay to everything! Just enough so when you mute it you miss it, but it never really sticks out too much.

I am being obtuse on purpose because I do not know what reverbs and delays you have, but I would try a room for the short, and a hall for the long.

And a 16th note filtered (lows cut and highs cut) delay will add some depth, add some reverb to the delay as well so it all blends!

I understand how it is to mix one's own music! And how sometimes one can kind of get a little stuck in a box, because the song to them is THE SONG! You've taken it all the way from inception to production, and perhaps the mix is somewhere that you can express yourself a little further by adding more identity to the mix itself.

Try different delays, delay times, reverb types/algorithms, reverb pre-delays and diffusions and lengths! Just get creative, be a little sloppy on purpose, surprise yourself! Add a touch of distortion to some things! Get crazy, and get lost in it! It's music and art!

I hope this post helps, albeit a bit sloppy, I'll subscribe to this thread and keep checking on it!

Best,
Old 20th December 2010
  #13
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P.S. Another idea: Also maybe setup a nice third reverb that you will compress heavily with the intention of trying to make a curtain of sound that is always there with.
Old 21st December 2010
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Thanks a million, Albert!

What's a good starting point, in your opinion, for pre delay and decay times for those reverbs being applied to all the tracks?
Old 21st December 2010
  #15
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john caldwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
Thanks, John! Here's a mix with the drums up, vox down a bit, higher pass filter for verse falsetto (but maybe not enough?) I must have some kind of frequency null in my studio, because the falsetto drops way down in volume through my studio monitors.
This is fixed as far as I am concerned. I'll guess you pulled a lot of LF energy out during those phrases.

Forgive me if this is a repeat of criticism offered some weeks ago when you first shared this track: During the chorus round line " lie-ie-ie-ie", your choice of processing might be used another way. What about using one of these 3rd verbs already discussed for that line, but LP those vocals. As it is now, those phrases have HF air added, making them feel close, yet they are recessed - which is a contradiction. I think the phrase would sound nice recessed way back, in soundstage not volume. Does this idea appeal to you?

John-
Old 22nd December 2010
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
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Interesting idea, John. For this song, I've felt that the music should help carry the chorus due to the very simple melody. Hence, the blending (reduced volume) of the vocal. Your approach might work though.

Thanks for the awesome tips!
Old 22nd December 2010
  #17
A really solid mix with good performances... I agree with the comments about getting creative with your mixing - at the moment everything feels very "static" & just a bit staid.

Quote:
The artist is me on all tracks except the drums, so I have full authority here. LOL. What could I do to "unstraighten" this mix?
A further suggestion with the reverbs & delays: Automate! Just bring up the reverb/delay/ambience/effect on a phrase here and there... the ear gets used to a sound very quickly - surprise it with something new at each turn - its amazing how these little subtleties will really bring a mix to life!

Overall, great job!
Old 23rd December 2010
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fHumble fHingaz View Post
A really solid mix with good performances... I agree with the comments about getting creative with your mixing - at the moment everything feels very "static" & just a bit staid.



A further suggestion with the reverbs & delays: Automate! Just bring up the reverb/delay/ambience/effect on a phrase here and there... the ear gets used to a sound very quickly - surprise it with something new at each turn - its amazing how these little subtleties will really bring a mix to life!

Overall, great job!
Thanks, fHingaz!

The feedback is overwhelmingly: add more dimention/verb to the whole mix and wet down the vox. I'll give it a try sometime this week and re-post.

Tom
Old 23rd December 2010
  #19
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Yeah, right...'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
Thanks, John! Here's a mix with the drums up, vox down a bit, higher pass filter for verse falsetto (but maybe not enough?) I must have some kind of frequency null in my studio, because the falsetto drops way down in volume through my studio monitors.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Let me know what you think of this mix. I still have to pull out that vox effect at 2:26
hey there.

you've already got a pretty solid mix - sorta has a crowded house vibe for me?

i really like the bv's but the main vox don't really convince me? imo they they need fattening a bit (prob a mix of eq & comp - hard to say without know what you're using?) & there are a few timing & intonation issues that need addressing. also for my taste they could be a little more forward in the mix.

i agree with albert's comment about trying delays of various types/degrees on the main vox...

also, i feel the brief instrumental interlude need in the middle section needs to be a little more interesting - maybe a simple guitar lick...?

overall though, a good job. well done...

mike
Old 23rd December 2010
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Thanks for the input, Yeah

Could you be more specific about where you're hearing intonation, timing and volume issues with the vox?

Tom
Old 23rd December 2010
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Thanks for the input, Yeah

Could you be more specific about where you're hearing intonation, timing and volume issues with the vox?

Tom
Old 24th December 2010
  #22
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Yeah, right...'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
Thanks for the input, Yeah

Could you be more specific about where you're hearing intonation, timing and volume issues with the vox?

Tom
hi again tom.

with the intonation there is, to my ear anyway, place for a bit of fine tuning at: 1:05, 1:44, 2:18, 2:41, 2:59, 3:06 & 3:16. i'm talking pretty small stuff but i think the song & production is worth going the extra yard...

by timing, i'm really meaning phrasing, which i know is a very personal issue. there are, for me at least, parts of the vox that could flow better. ok, not many, but again, i think it's worth the effort to re-visit.

i don't remember mentioning a problem with volume?

i did say though that i feel the main vox could be overall a little forward in the mix, and maybe a bit fatter...

without knowing your set-up it's impossible to be more specific.

again, i think you've done a great job with a fine song.

merry christmas, mike
Old 24th December 2010
  #23
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah, right... View Post
hi again tom.

with the intonation there is, to my ear anyway, place for a bit of fine tuning at: 1:05, 1:44, 2:18, 2:41, 2:59, 3:06 & 3:16. i'm talking pretty small stuff but i think the song & production is worth going the extra yard...

by timing, i'm really meaning phrasing, which i know is a very personal issue. there are, for me at least, parts of the vox that could flow better. ok, not many, but again, i think it's worth the effort to re-visit.

i don't remember mentioning a problem with volume?

i did say though that i feel the main vox could be overall a little forward in the mix, and maybe a bit fatter...

without knowing your set-up it's impossible to be more specific.

again, i think you've done a great job with a fine song.

merry christmas, mike
Merry Christmas and thanks for the suggestions (and the compliment)! I appreciate you taking the time and lending me your discerning ear. I've avoided autotune for this song, but maybe I'll have to fix a couple spots...

FYI, the vocal was a Bock 151-> Pacifica->Daking FET compressor->Empirical labs Lil freq for high pass and slight boosts at 4.5k and 12k. Effects are all ITB (DP7, UAD2, Soundtoys)

I'll post results in the coming days.

Thanks!
Tom
Old 26th December 2010
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
Andreas Leonhard's Avatar
 

Hi Tom,
overall it´s a surely a good and solid song and mix.
I like to focus you on a completely different issue.
Over the years I figured out that working "too much" on a mix and "improving" this and that is able to reduce the feeling and message of the song and prevent you to push the groove forward.
What strikes me in your mix is that it´s sound good but there is more potential....let it "explode"!!!!
I would suggest: Put "all faders down", think about all issues mentioned here in this thread and start again. Total recall doesn´t only have positive attributes. In the early days of recording all mixes were done "life" and working on this and that later was impossible. So, this method has it´s own magic. I think you know what I mean.
All the best.
Old 26th December 2010
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
scitscat's Avatar
 

Wow! Very nice stuff.

Think what some of the people were saying about the timing vocally, is sometimes you'd start right on the beat, vocally and then others a bit later, and in major productions, everything needs to be tight.

All that being said, Very Nice Work!
Old 27th December 2010
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scitscat View Post
Wow! Very nice stuff.

Think what some of the people were saying about the timing vocally, is sometimes you'd start right on the beat, vocally and then others a bit later, and in major productions, everything needs to be tight.

All that being said, Very Nice Work!
Thanks, scitscat.

I tend to sing with the feeling of the music and not exact timing, I'll have to listen to the timing of the phrases and see if things should be "moved" ;-)

Tom
Old 27th December 2010
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCW View Post
Thanks, scitscat.

I tend to sing with the feeling of the music and not exact timing, I'll have to listen to the timing of the phrases and see if things should be "moved" ;-)

Tom
Hey Tom,
Totally get that, and like the tune.
Old 27th December 2010
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Leonhard View Post
Hi Tom,
overall it´s a surely a good and solid song and mix.
I like to focus you on a completely different issue.
Over the years I figured out that working "too much" on a mix and "improving" this and that is able to reduce the feeling and message of the song and prevent you to push the groove forward.
What strikes me in your mix is that it´s sound good but there is more potential....let it "explode"!!!!
I would suggest: Put "all faders down", think about all issues mentioned here in this thread and start again. Total recall doesn´t only have positive attributes. In the early days of recording all mixes were done "life" and working on this and that later was impossible. So, this method has it´s own magic. I think you know what I mean.
All the best.
Oh man...I hear ya, but I'm going to try and fix this mix first with a couple of the ambience/timing suggestions. I agree though, picking nits for weeks is just not rock n' roll. LOL. And you can lose that emotion/connection to the song. It's like taking 25 vocal takes.

Thanks for the feedback, Andreas. And thanks for the mixing offer. I'm gonna try to handle this one in my studio...for now. I've got a bunch more tunes though, so if this one drives me insane, maybe I'll just pass the rest on to you. ;-)

Tom Woods
Old 6th February 2011
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

Well, I got distracted by some other songs, but I finally messed with this mix for a bit. I did some level adjustments, added slight 1/16 note delay and a touch of hall reverb (50ms predelay, 1.3 sec reverb, lows/highs cut) to the mix bus. Very subtle amounts here, but it definitely added a more lively feel to the mix.

I'm really curious what others think of the vocal levels throughout the song. For some reason, I'm wrestling with that.

Any suggestions are welcome!

Tom
Attached Files

Why Did You Lie - Pre Master.mp3 (5.71 MB, 160 views)

Old 6th February 2011
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
TCW's Avatar
 

I just got PM'd (by someone interested in mixing this song for me) about the mix not having enough clarity and having too much/wrong effects. Fist the mix is lacking depth/dry, now the mix is too wet and unclear.

BTW, the song still has to be mastered, so maybe some overall EQ issues can be worked out there (?)
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