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Disc Makers or Oasis as mastering? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 17th August 2008
  #1
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Disc Makers or Oasis as mastering?

I have a friend who is getting his cd duplicated in the near future, and may take advantage of the lower Mastering rate Disc Makers or Oasis has for mastering services (400-500 dollars) when used with duplication. I personally would like to hear a test master from these places, but they will not do a test master, only gaurantee their work.

In a perfect plan, we would have the CD mastered by someone else, a few possibilities come into mind, but I believe budget is coming into play which is why He is strongly considering having these places master (most likely oaysis since they have a packaging he prefers)

So, anyone use and have luck with these places for mastering? How did it turn out? Any info on if they will do at least a half way decent job?

Thanks
Old 17th August 2008
  #2
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I would recommend having a outside house do it.

I had John at Massive Mastering do some work for a project and it came out perfect. He's on this site as well as a few other "pros". Check them out. Most have some good "independent" rates and like I said they're pros.

The reason I say this is to build relationships (networking) outside of the dup/replicator, as they do thousands a year... so building a relationship (networking) might be hard.
Old 18th August 2008
  #3
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I have no doubt that there are numerous mastering houses that would do a killer job, like I said, I know of a few off hand that I would turn to,

I am wondering though if anyone has real hands on experience with a finished product from these guys, not just hearsay..

thanks
Old 18th August 2008
  #4
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A client of mine had a disc duplicated and packaged by Oasis but not mastered. No quality control issues with the run to my knowledge.

I don't have any confidence in packaged mastering services. I believe that a poor mastering job can be worse than an unmastered mix. I also believe that a mastering session requires the personal involvement of the artist and producers in order to ensure that the desired aesthetic is delivered. Packaged services often do not include the option of attending sessions which I think is essential.

Good luck in any case.
Old 18th August 2008
  #5
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Yeah

my first feeling would be that a place such as that would not have quite the professional capabilities to deliver as high quality of a master, but, once again, I really am wondering if anyone has had real world experiences with their service in this regard. Who knows, maybe they do have the gear and expertise to deliver a quality job, and I don't want to short change them without having something to stand on other then my personal feelings on the matter you know, or spred the wrong impression without first hand knowledge to go from.

I don't really mind not being there, its a friends project, and while I recorded and mixed it, as long as the mastering engineer is patient with any back and forth, then there should be no issues. The last project I had mastered was done remotely, and it turned out great, with very minimal back and forth small changes and the engineer was quite accomodating.

This is not my project, but I would like to get solid information to pass on to my friend.
Old 18th August 2008
  #6
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There are guys on the board as well with insanely reasonable rates (JDG) who do excellent work, and do demos. I'd say go that route, DEFINITELY get a demo first. He'll be really sorry if he didn't.
Old 19th August 2008
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
There are guys on the board as well with insanely reasonable rates (JDG) who do excellent work, and so demos. I'd say go that route, DEFINITELY get a demo first. He'll be really sorry if he didn't.
Second that
Old 19th August 2008
  #8
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I would be surprised if the work coming out of them (DM or O ) is equal to what guys (myself included) can do to a project here at GS.

But, use your common sense. If you were an ME working in those places and were really GOOD at it, would you want to work there?

You'd be better off working as a freelance audio engineer on your own....

Let me tell you a little story...

I friend of mine who owns a duplication place in Manhattan (NYC) called me once to ask if maybe they (his duping company) could outsource mastering services to us.

They would hike the price up a bit to their new clients and after receiving the master from us, they would do the duplication.

He asked me first to explain the steps for mastering. So I did. He then asked me a question that was extremely importatnt for him to know: "what if the mixes were bad or had a few issues?". I told him that we would let the customer know and they would go back to their studio to fix them.

He said: forget it then!

I said: "wait, you still got their money, right?".

He then said: "yes, but (A) it's 50% and sometimes is less of the total balance" (B) they are gonna hold up my production line (C) I am going to need to have more tables to put jobs that are on hold and, (D) they may cancel or never even come back with those mixes, which means neither you will get the job nor will I get all my money"...

..."I just want them to come in, place an order, get their CDs duped, get them out of here and move on to the next artist job."

Until today, I haven't received one single job from him.

The moral of the story is obvious. And, I am pretty sure it can be applied to CD/DVD replicators as well.

There is a conflict of interest there. If the mixes are bad or too mediocre, or there are some errors, they have no incentive to tell you: "hey, go back fix this, and also fix that...".

At least they won't be as detail oriented as guys who post here at GearSlutz.com, per se.

It's also possible that the MEs in these places don't know any better, but most likely, they don't want to know. They will give you something that, I am sure, will be perceived as sounding better.

Any manufacturing plant that has a mastering room will only be interested in getting the whole thing done quickly. Nothing wrong with that either, but that also applies to mastering.

Now, don't get me wrong, if your mixes are great, then, it's a matter of praying that the the guy won't ruin them in the mastering.

They'll have you hear a test or whatever CD, which you now have to approve or ask to adjust. This way the entire responsibility of the sound is on YOU.

That said, anyone supplying great mixes, has most likely, worked in a good studio and at higher rates and is certainly not going to skimp with the mastering.

I know this is not the answer you were looking for to your question, but it might help you decide, I hope.

Ask yourself: Are my mixes great? Can I gamble with the sound of this project?

If you say yes to both, then go for it.
Old 19th August 2008
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post
There is a conflict of interest there.
Very good point.

The may do a good job. Maybe the critical voices here are unjustified. But it seems (to me too) that there is a fundamental conflict of interest that may or may not harm the project. Either way, the potential conflict exists, so if you decide to do mastering at a replication plant, it might be good to be cautious about that.
Old 19th August 2008
  #10
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Like I said before

Its not my decision, its a friends project. And I am not new to audio, engineering, or anything of the sort., and My mixes are decent I think.

I personally see a reason why someone with skill would work in a place like Disc Makers. Sure, if they have talent, they can go on thier own, may have gone on thier own, but working in a corporate place definetally has its percs. You do'nt have to find your clients, your pay is consistent week after week, and if its a succesfull company, should be decent enough pay to warrent staying and or benifits. You don't have to buy your own gear. I've worked in bigger post studios, and now I am on my own, both have its merrits!!

I would not want to make the mistake of pre-judging talent at a corporate place such as diskmakers just because they are not freelance, imo that is a big mistake. And I see no reason why a place like Disc Makers, who's sole purpose is to put out products like this, would not have at least the potential or means to do a good job, and or good customer service. Just playing opposite so to speak.

Like I mentioned, so far its been all a discussion on a matter of opinion more or less on whether or not they can do a good job, but no first hand experience yet. Personally if it was my project, I would save up some clams and go with 2 or 3 people I know off hand, but its not my final desicion. I will pass along this info to my friend, and it is basically the same concerns i told him before, but hopefully there may be some more info or samples posted......

His budget is lower, if he had a grand plus, it would not be an issue. Perhaps If you are a mastering house and would work for lower rates like 500 bucks, you can PM me and I can pass along that info.... Thanks
Old 20th August 2008
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Energie View Post
His budget is lower, if he had a grand plus, it would not be an issue. Perhaps If you are a mastering house and would work for lower rates like 500 bucks, you can PM me and I can pass along that info.... Thanks
[admitted conflict of interest]

Looking at the record's cost as a whole, what's $500 more matter if the difference is between a pretty good job with no damage done and a job so great you're all super excited and fully satisfied? Between cookie cutter good and custom top notch? Shopping for engineering on cost, either looking to spend a lot or a little, makes no sense to me at all.

[/conflict of interest]
Old 20th August 2008
  #12
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500 dollars more is alot to a person who also has to dish out 1600 for a short run duplication on top, and is releasing this on his own dime. He is a good friend and I did work for a reasonable rate for him, and money is still owed on that front as well, so its not like we are all rich dude or workign with high dollar projects. Some poeple are scrapping all they can to release thier work, and trying to get a decent product, with what they can... So while its easy to say, whats another 500 dollars, that in reality on top of what he needs to actually put it out is more then he can spend and get something out on time...


heck, Bob Katz is just up the street, and I understand and have said the same arguments about quality and what not, but in the end he is only able to do what he can, and wants to get it mastered, only the cheaper package deal has him interested.

I will say that Disc Makers kindly PM'd me with a nice email addressing some of the cocerns, they do seem accomodating, and passed off a gear list. just want to through that out there.
Old 20th August 2008
  #13
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I don't mean to be rude or insensitive but no one has a lot of money who makes a record, your client is no different. By mastering time it's always tight and everyone just wants it done. And yet, there is always a little more money and a little more time for a self-release if they actually care about it. It's not like the 10 staffers down in PR are starting an ad campaign on the 25th and tour on the 31th with radio promo at $2000/wk.

As I read it your artist has $500 ... so what's the question really? If you have $500, you spend $500. If you feel good about DM then go there.
Old 20th August 2008
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post
I would be surprised if the work coming out of them (DM or O ) is equal to what guys (myself included) can do to a project here at GS.

But, use your common sense. If you were an ME working in those places and were really GOOD at it, would you want to work there?

You'd be better off working as a freelance audio engineer on your own....

Let me tell you a little story...

I friend of mine who owns a duplication place in Manhattan (NYC) called me once to ask if maybe they (his duping company) could outsource mastering services to us.

They would hike the price up a bit to their new clients and after receiving the master from us, they would do the duplication.

He asked me first to explain the steps for mastering. So I did. He then asked me a question that was extremely importatnt for him to know: "what if the mixes were bad or had a few issues?". I told him that we would let the customer know and they would go back to their studio to fix them.

He said: forget it then!

I said: "wait, you still got their money, right?".

He then said: "yes, but (A) it's 50% and sometimes is less of the total balance" (B) they are gonna hold up my production line (C) I am going to need to have more tables to put jobs that are on hold and, (D) they may cancel or never even come back with those mixes, which means neither you will get the job nor will I get all my money"...

..."I just want them to come in, place an order, get their CDs duped, get them out of here and move on to the next artist job."

Until today, I haven't received one single job from him.

The moral of the story is obvious. And, I am pretty sure it can be applied to CD/DVD replicators as well.

There is a conflict of interest there. If the mixes are bad or too mediocre, or there are some errors, they have no incentive to tell you: "hey, go back fix this, and also fix that...".

At least they won't be as detail oriented as guys who post here at GearSlutz.com, per se.

It's also possible that the MEs in these places don't know any better, but most likely, they don't want to know. They will give you something that, I am sure, will be perceived as sounding better.

Any manufacturing plant that has a mastering room will only be interested in getting the whole thing done quickly. Nothing wrong with that either, but that also applies to mastering.

Now, don't get me wrong, if your mixes are great, then, it's a matter of praying that the the guy won't ruin them in the mastering.

They'll have you hear a test or whatever CD, which you now have to approve or ask to adjust. This way the entire responsibility of the sound is on YOU.

That said, anyone supplying great mixes, has most likely, worked in a good studio and at higher rates and is certainly not going to skimp with the mastering.

I know this is not the answer you were looking for to your question, but it might help you decide, I hope.

Ask yourself: Are my mixes great? Can I gamble with the sound of this project?

If you say yes to both, then go for it.
That was kinda my point to the "OP"... I had some work done by a ME that's on this site quite regularly (JOHN) and some work done from a dude in California and Ima tell you it was a good experience.

On the work I sent to my man in Cali, he gave me great feedback on what needed to be looked at so I could get the best possible product on his end of the job. Great back and forth on the phone and I feel the start of a good working relationship.

I get some things duplicated by "DM" and "O" for artists I work with and know a few that do as well... and on that end its a good move, but I would really try and stay outside to do your mastering... if just for the REAL experience in dealing with guys (or gals) in the same field as you. BUILD RELATIONSHIPS!
Old 20th August 2008
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
I don't mean to be rude or insensitive but no one has a lot of money who makes a record, your client is no different. By mastering time it's always tight and everyone just wants it done.

And yet, there is always a little more money and a little more time for a self-release if they actually care about it. It's not like the 10 staffers down in PR are starting an ad campaign on the 25th and tour on the 31th with radio promo at $2000/wk.

As I read it your artist has $500 ... so what's the question really? If you have $500, you spend $500. If you feel good about DM then go there.
The question was if anyone had a finished product mastered by one of these kats and could relay thier impressions. that was the question I guess I was looking for basically, not whether or not it was the best option or if i could find someone else for that rate, which is what has taken up the majority of this topic and highlighted my concerns I passed on from the start.

I know of a few mastering houses that usually charge twice what he can spend as of now, and I know I would be able to find others that would work for a lesser rate if it were ultimetally up to me. I got a few responces of studios in PM's who offered thier rates, and I really appreciate that! I will pass along all of this info for sure and keep contact info on hand. But I wasn't too worried about finding someone who would work for his budget, rather if a DM or O has done a good finished product for someone and I could relay either the good or bad experience, since my friend is leaning towards this way for now.

In some ways, if DM or O have a gaurantee, then its not too much of a gamble, I mean I know what I would like to hear in the end personally, and know what a crappy master sounds like, and also what a good sounding product will be like. Its just that I would hate to waste everyones time if it didn't work out to our satisfaction you know, and that I think is the reason for my question, to not waste time on anyones end. Thats one thing that is nice about a test master you know, while it does not represent the entire cd as a whole, it gives a good idea about what the ME will at least initially do to the overall sound.

I do appreciate all of the insight and time into posting, and I agree with most of it. Thank you for your insight
Old 20th August 2008
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post
I would be surprised if the work coming out of them (DM or O ) is equal to what guys (myself included) can do to a project here at GS.

But, use your common sense. If you were an ME working in those places and were really GOOD at it, would you want to work there?

You'd be better off working as a freelance audio engineer on your own....

.
Wow, you sure are assuming alot here aren't you?

Don't worry, I'm fine with my life choice and confident in my ability and the engineers around me, too. I and the other 7 engineers here have plenty of work to do since clients keep returning to us because they are happy with what we do.

But, yea, common sense will tell you that someone doing it over 40 hours a week for a professional salary at a company can't be any good at what they do. Cuz companies like paying people who aren't any good at what they do.
Old 20th August 2008
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelliott View Post
[ Don't worry, I'm fine with my life choice and confident in my ability and the engineers around me, too. I and the other 7 engineers here have plenty of work to do since clients keep returning to us because they are happy with what we do.
I am happy for your (DM or O) living style, but I know a few of your "clients" who the second time around, opted to go with a serious mastering house and sorry, but I am also not at liberty to name them....

Quote:
But, yea, common sense will tell you that someone doing it over 40 hours a week for a professional salary at a company can't be any good at what they do. Cuz companies like paying people who aren't any good at what they do.
Please, don't get me started with sarcasm. I realize that I have hurt your feelings with my view. I am sorry.

That said, DM or O CD/DVD manufacturing companies are managed and owned by people who know nothing about good sound. That leaves you and the others to set the benchmark which as I said, and I will say it differently now: You can't hold a candle to the guys who regularly post here at GS (myself included)...
Old 20th August 2008
  #18
That's a bit harsh, I think. I don't mean to invalidate your opinion, but in my view, there may be a conflict of interest in some places, but there doesn't have to be. There are good places that are operated by pressing plants.

One of my local competitors is operated by a company with their main business in replication brokering and (although I'd like it to be otherwise), they do good work. Whether every "attached" project is handled with the same care, I don't know, but what I heard from was solid work.

I'm just saying, good MEs are good MEs, wherever they work. And unless corporate policy gets in the way, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do a great job. Colouring it all black and white doesn't seem right to me here. As I said, the customer - in any scenario - should be cautious about their project and make sure they're not rushed; that the prime concern, quality, isn't compromised because of auxilliary motives. That's as far as I would take it, anything else, in my opinion, is over-generalising.
Old 20th August 2008
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering View Post
That's a bit harsh, I think. I don't mean to undermine your opinion, but in my view, there may be a conflict of interest in some places, but there doesn't have to be. There are good places that are operated by pressing plants.

One of my local competitors is operated by a company with their main business in replication brokering and (although I'd like it to be otherwise), they do good work. Whether every "attached" project is handled with the same care, I don't know, but what I heard from was solid work.

I'm just saying, good MEs are good MEs, wherever they work. And unless corporate policy gets in the way, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do a great job. Colouring it all black and white doesn't seem right to me here. As I said, the customer - in any scenario - should be cautious about their project and make sure they're not rushed; that the prime concern, quality, isn't compromised because of auxilliary motives. That's as far as I would take it, anything else, in my opinion, is over-generalising.
Robin, I am not disagreeing with you here. But, I am being specific (DM and O)....I've heard all kinds of good and bad reviews about these guys and my guess is, those who had mediocre mixes, paid the price *big time* for not going to an honest ME who would say: "I can't take your money"...

EDIT: I am also talking about someone who could tell the client: "If you could fix this or fix that, there would be a lot more benefit from the mastering, etc...
Old 20th August 2008
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Robin, I am not disagreeing with you here. But, I am being specific (DM and O)....I've heard all kinds of good and bad reviews about these guys and my guess is, those who had mediocre mixes, paid the price *big time* for not going to an honest ME who would say: "I can't take your money"...

EDIT: I am also talking about someone who could tell the client: "If you could fix this or fix that, there would be a lot more benefit from the mastering, etc...
Since we deal with independents, to assume that this doesn't happen is astounding.

Keep attacking me and my company. Maybe that'll be enough to have you removed from the boards. - Now I'm not honest? Sad
Old 20th August 2008
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelliott View Post
Since we deal with independents, to assume that this doesn't happen is astounding.
Is that so? You tell people: "I can't take your money"?....

Quote:
Keep attacking me and my company. Maybe that'll be enough to have you removed from the boards. - Now I'm not honest? Sad
I am being honest, you don't get removed for that. I am entitled to an opinion (some people here have been mastering for 25 years and even longer!) so, if you don't like it, just ignore it...
Old 20th August 2008
  #22
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Unfortunately we have had to tell people that without a remix/recording it's virtually useless to have their project mastered. Did it less than an hour ago. We've had plenty of people leave and plenty go back and remix. In fact, we offer a free service for potential clients to send in their mixes for feedback. That's why I can't see how you can "honestly" say you're just being honest. You don't really know the facts to be honest about.

"just ignore it" - consider it done
Old 20th August 2008
  #23
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If I may

since I started this topic, let me interject before it gets to far off hand

I believe DM have the potential to do a good job, and per my conversation, initiated by the ME at DM, I feel confident that he knows how to handle customers and projects professionaly, and ask the right questions.

I also know there are many other quality ME's out there that will work for similiar budget structures and will end up with a good product.

I think it would be hard to say or speculate who would do a better job, unless there was a flat out comparrison per project, and even then, it may be a matter of personal preference. So I think saying this place will do it better then that place, is more or less speculation at this point.

You know checking out ME's websites, there are alot who also do duplication, so I think the conflict of interest theory would have to apply to everyone who masters and also duplicates if valid.

I will pass off all of this info and help my buddy make a good choice
Old 20th August 2008
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelliott View Post
Unfortunately we have had to tell people that without a remix/recording it's virtually useless to have their project mastered. Did it less than an hour ago. We've had plenty of people leave and plenty go back and remix. In fact, we offer a free service for potential clients to send in their mixes for feedback. That's why I can't see how you can "honestly" say you're just being honest. You don't really know the facts to be honest about.

"just ignore it" - consider it done
Again, I know of people who went for mastering with other MEs after doing that business with DM or O. They actually realized that they didn't like what you (or your colleagues) did, but because they had already approved the ref master, they couldn't do anything about it. If you don't think that can be possible, I totally understand your position. In all honesty, it can happen to all of us. But IMHO, I doubt that you could get paid to turn down jobs....
Old 20th August 2008
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Energie View Post
I believe DM have the potential to do a good job, and per my conversation, initiated by the ME at DM, I feel confident that he knows how to handle customers and projects professionaly, and ask the right questions.

I also know there are many other quality ME's out there that will work for similiar budget structures and will end up with a good product.

I think it would be hard to say or speculate who would do a better job, unless there was a flat out comparrison per project, and even then, it may be a matter of personal preference. So I think saying this place will do it better then that place, is more or less speculation at this point.
Agreed. It was a speculative question to be fair to the posts that ensued.

Good luck with it.


My only nagging doubt of any ME who works there is this, "why not work on your own?" If you're starting out and growing your skills then what's the upgrade path for your name? If you're really good you'll never need to work there in the first place, you'll make all the $500 not part of it, then charge more later on. They don't put names on the work for a reason, you're hiring a company not an individual.
Old 20th August 2008
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Energie View Post
The question was if anyone had a finished product mastered by one of these kats and could relay thier impressions. that was the question I guess I was looking for basically, not whether or not it was the best option or if i could find someone else for that rate....
Not that I want to add more wood to the fire, but since your thread started on 08/17/08, there has not been one single user to post what you want to read. You should take that by itself as a sign...Also IMO, this mastering forum maybe not the right one to start a frenzy of hearsay...
Old 20th August 2008
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Again, I know of people who went for mastering with other MEs after doing that business with DM or O.
How many tracks/albums are mastered per year at DM? (Or O but you are attacking someone from DM here). What are the chances that, in this field which is all about taste and perception, a few people are not happy with the results? I would say that the chances are 100% and that would go for any mastering house.

Alistair
Old 20th August 2008
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
How many tracks/albums are mastered per year at DM?
Don't ask questions that can be answered only by an employee of DM mastering...

Quote:
What are the chances that, in this field which is all about taste and perception, a few people are not happy with the results? I would say that the chances are 100% and that would go for any mastering house.
Before you get deeper into it, read this.

BTW, you don't help DM mastering make their case by attacking me...
Old 20th August 2008
  #29
kjg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
How many tracks/albums are mastered per year at DM? (Or O but you are attacking someone from DM here). What are the chances that, in this field which is all about taste and perception, a few people are not happy with the results? I would say that the chances are 100% and that would go for any mastering house.

Alistair
Absolutely, chances are 100%. It certainly is no reason to be bad-mouthing anybody's business. tutt
Old 20th August 2008
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Don't ask questions that can be answered only by an employee of DM mastering...
Read between the lines. The question does not need to be answered.

Quote:
Before you get deeper into it, read this.
It is on the internet. It must be fact! heh

Quote:
BTW, you don't help DM mastering make their case by attacking me...
Attacking you? Don't turn round too fast but there is someone behind you!

Alistair
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