The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
I had an interesting discussion yeterday... 500 Series EQ\'s
Old 4th September 2011
  #1
I had an interesting discussion yeterday...

I was talking to a person who works in management for a local TV station . He was telling me about the changes that are happening in local TV. None of the changes he mentioned seem good for the long term. Layoffs, salary reductions and self production (meaning that the talent is also the videographer and the the audio engineer and the lighting person). He was also mentioning, as others in the business have told me, that more and more "engineers" are being replaced by operators who know how to punch buttons and enter data via their keyboards but have nary a clue as to what is going on behind the front panels. The reason for this is a monetary one because the operators are paid about 1/3 to 1/2 as much as the engineers they are replacing.

The one thing he said that was most upsetting to me was they now have to be very careful when interviewing interns or giving tours to young television hopefuls. They cannot paint a bright future for them nor can they tell them what it is really like. Unfortunately these young hopefuls are being given mixed signals by their colleges and professionals in the business. The colleges want and need them as students so they are painting a really bright future for them but there are less and less jobs for them to fill and the broadcast media folks are telling them that there is not a bright future but cannot tell them exactly what is really happening behind the scenes. With all the mixed signals being given out it is amazing that anyone can have a clear picture of where the profession is heading.

I really feel for the young college student who is looking at his or her life after college. They want to succeed and make it in their chosen profession but their chances of even getting a job in their field is diminishing by the day.

I am really glad I am NOT starting out.
Old 4th September 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Player1's Avatar
 

Player1

Like many industries in the world right now things are changing. The TV/Audio production world has been changing for the last 5+ years. The news guys have to seek out the new models or create them to survive. This is another chapter that's not been written yet. While things are not going to ever be like they use to, there is new paradigm developing and there are new exciting shifts that are happening. For myself having been in a post house for years and watching it go out of business I decided to expand my audio business and now have a business that creates media for business. That can range from audio, video, stills, graphics, etc to enhance all marketing efforts for businesses. We're really getting traction with the new venture and it's a lot of fun. We will continue to adapt and develop the business to the model we want to represent. Things are changing significantly, but there are new opportunities too! As always, if your not moving forward your dying.
Old 4th September 2011
  #3
Deleted User
Guest
Optimism

Looking up from the bottom of the ladder, I can confirm that the future is definitely daunting. I'm pursuing an education in production, but the college I am studying in absolutely do not try to paint some rosy picture for careers. They ensure that we are aware it's a dog eat dog industry, and that you are going to have to work your fingers to the bone to get somewhere. There's no certainties, but I am excited to see where I can get in the next 5 years.
Old 4th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 
BIGBANGBUZZ's Avatar
 

The Industry is becoming like McDonalds..
There is so many Kids coming out of media courses who have basic FCP knowledge
It's driven the $$ rate of an editor down by a lot.

People who stand out from the crowd, will still demand and get the big $$$
Old 4th September 2011
  #5
Gear Nut
 
Fred Story's Avatar
 

Mark Northam wrote a piece in Film Music Magazine that addresses a similar problem as it relates to the promises being made to music students seeking careers as Media Composers.

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=8191
Old 4th September 2011
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Jesse Peterson's Avatar
 

I think that personal client relationship are most important right now. Buy them dinner, take them to the ball game. Love their projects as much as they do and over deliver. Give them an experience that is worth more than what is on the invoice and they will tell their friends and be back. I think that the dumbing down of all involved only makes it easier to shine if that is what you want to do.

If you are just starting out, you're not going to make any money, just forget about that part. Get your self in front of the gear however you can and work because you love it. Everything you do, from student films to little promos or the demo for your friends band.. each thing you touch should be the best thing you've ever done. The paying clients will show up when you are ready and they'll find you.
Old 4th September 2011
  #7
Lives for gear
 

There are going to be (are) a lot of newbies passing through the biz pretty quickly nowadays. Way many somewhat qualified willing people, they get some low-paying work, that low-paying work leads to more low-paying work (if they are lucky), and then they aren't so young anymore and have to make a decision. The same thing is happening in the restaurant/chef business--some work for low-paid entry level folks, and then very few get to progress farther than that. I think this is why we see so many indie productions happening now--people are frustrated and want to do something with their passion and what they've learned, and they also see that being one of the "creatives" (if you make it) is far more lucrative than being a techie. (If only because the "creatives" will be doing the techies' work too....)

phil p
Old 4th September 2011
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Peterson View Post
I think that personal client relationship are most important right now. Buy them dinner, take them to the ball game. Love their projects as much as they do and over deliver. Give them an experience that is worth more than what is on the invoice and they will tell their friends and be back. I think that the dumbing down of all involved only makes it easier to shine if that is what you want to do.

If you are just starting out, you're not going to make any money, just forget about that part. Get your self in front of the gear however you can and work because you love it. Everything you do, from student films to little promos or the demo for your friends band.. each thing you touch should be the best thing you've ever done. The paying clients will show up when you are ready and they'll find you.
I've been doing that for years and telling my interns to do the same thing. It works and works well. The problem today is that many people are looking for cheaper and cheaper ways to do everything since budgets have been slashed and slashed again. Even if you provide superior service some people will have to go elsewhere if you cannot do what they want for the price they can afford.

It is not helping the people who do audio post for a living when so many people are looking for work, some of them just to carve a notch on their resumes', and they are willing to work for slave wages just to get their foot in the door.
Old 4th September 2011
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Story View Post
Mark Northam wrote a piece in Film Music Magazine that addresses a similar problem as it relates to the promises being made to music students seeking careers as Media Composers.

College Film Scoring Programs: Selling The Dream vs. Disclosing Reality :: Film Music Magazine
A couple of points. These were taken from the article noted in Fred Story's reply

What can these schools do as they turn out hundreds of composer graduates each year into a completely saturated marketplace where only a few stand a reasonable chance of making a living after graduation doing what they were trained to do?

* 1) Invite current working composers into the classroom and encourage them to speak candidly about the state of the art, craft and business

* 2) Disclose to prospective students the realities of the workplace, and emphasize how the school prepares the students to succeed in the challenging environment

* 3)A composing education should be as much about the art and craft as it is about the business. Film composing programs need to stop treating business courses as an optional subject and mainstream these courses as a significant part of a student’s education. It’s great to be able to write music well, but without the business chops to create and build a career, those talents can easily go to waste.





I worked at a major Conservatory of Music for 26 years and would like to post my thoughts on what Mr. Mark Northam has written.

1. Most professors DON'T want outside composers coming in as they are afraid that the visiting composers will really "tell it like it is" and they don't want students questioning what they are teaching. I know in one instance where a professor told a student he could not compose any thing tonal for one year and it almost ended the young person's composition career with the conflicts it caused. Luckily the young person went on to Julliard, finished up his PhD and is now a composer with lots of commissioned work coming in.

2 Professors don't want to disclose what a mess it is for a composer in the "real world" as they are afraid the student will notice that he or she is spending over $50,000 a year for schooling only to graduate and then land a low pay job, and consider themselves lucky if they are earning over $20,000 per year. It really makes no sense if you really look at what is taking place in academia today.

3. When I worked at the conservatory a lot of administrators got together to suggest what Mark Northam was suggesting and when we did the majority of the faculty got very upset that we would even suggest they teach a "trade" to the musicians. After all the music they were teaching was on a much higher plain. Learning how to work with an agent and to be able to read and understand a contract were something "they could pickup after they left college" . The faculty IMHO had lost all sense of reality and what it was like in the "real world" since most of them had been in academia their whole lives and had never had to look for work.

This type of attitude is major problem today...entrenched faculty with lots of tenure making decisions based on what they think is going on in the real world and not what is really going on. If the Conservatory I worked for went under tomorrow I dare say 90% of the faculty would not know how to really earn a living and would probably starve to death before they figured it out.

All good thoughts from Mr. Mark Northam but they have been thought about for eons but have also been poo pooed for the same amount of time by faculty members who don't want their collective boats rocked. Safe and secure is what they are after and bringing someone in from the "real world" can have negative infulences on their students.

FWIW and YMMV
Old 5th September 2011
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Peterson View Post
I think that personal client relationship are most important right now. Buy them dinner, take them to the ball game. Love their projects as much as they do and over deliver. Give them an experience that is worth more than what is on the invoice and they will tell their friends and be back. I think that the dumbing down of all involved only makes it easier to shine if that is what you want to do.

If you are just starting out, you're not going to make any money, just forget about that part. Get your self in front of the gear however you can and work because you love it. Everything you do, from student films to little promos or the demo for your friends band.. each thing you touch should be the best thing you've ever done. The paying clients will show up when you are ready and they'll find you.
Very well said. Couldn't agree more...
Old 5th September 2011
  #11
Lives for gear
 
ggegan's Avatar
When I first got into the business, a dub stage crew consisted of 3 mixers, a recordist, 2 loaders, a projectionist, an engineer and a runner. A typical editorial crew had several editors, 2 or 3 assistants and a couple of apprentices. The number of people on crews these days is less than half that and assistants and apprentices are endangered species.

What troubles me most is the lack of apprentices and assistants, because that means that training new personel is often done by academics rather than coming from practical experience working under veterans. I can definitely say that this has made my life more difficult in recent years. I spend way too much time having to explain really basic concepts to people who are not properly trained for the jobs they are doing. It isn't that they don't have potential or aren't trying, but they never had the opportunity to be mentored by a professional in real world situations.
Old 5th September 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Spinning on Gary's comment:
I worry that the knowledge of old, and by old I mean stuff like timecode, framerates , video reference and wordclock, is almost considered as unnecessary today.
Even stuff like video codecs and picture aspect ratios seems to be the knowledge of the very few these days.

Sure as long as you sit on your PT system editing along it all just works right? *right*

But as soon as a few systems need to be set up together all the new folks are totally lost. And I have at numerous times received stuff to master to cinema where neither the producer or the audio post folks have a clue what framerates the picture is running, "Does it matter, it looks sync here on my PT monitor?"
And there are no new service engineers either. Just some of the old folks who will soon be as commonplace as the dinosaurs.

Here in Sweden I haven't seen a assistant since the nineties...
We do try to let in some unpaid interns at least.
Old 5th September 2011
  #13
Lives for gear
 
hociman's Avatar
 

Lightbulb true...true...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG View Post
Spinning on Gary's comment:
I worry that the knowledge of old, and by old I mean stuff like timecode, framerates , video reference and wordclock, is almost considered as unnecessary today.
Even stuff like video codecs and picture aspect ratios seems to be the knowledge of the very few these days.

Sure as long as you sit on your PT system editing along it all just works right? *right*

But as soon as a few systems need to be set up together all the new folks are totally lost. And I have at numerous times received stuff to master to cinema where neither the producer or the audio post folks have a clue what framerates the picture is running, "Does it matter, it looks sync here on my PT monitor?"
Some of this might have to do with a person's education (or lack thereof). I don't mean what kind of degree they have. I mean what was included or excluded from the curriculum. I think some of it is also related to said person's willingness (or lack thereof) to do some reading and become acquainted with these concepts. Yes, getting your hands on things and actually doing the work is a good experience, but you can pickup on some of this from reading. At the very least, the intern or assistant should ask these kinds of questions when the opportunity presents itself.
Old 6th September 2011
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hociman View Post
Some of this might have to do with a person's education (or lack thereof). I don't mean what kind of degree they have. I mean what was included or excluded from the curriculum. I think some of it is also related to said person's willingness (or lack thereof) to do some reading and become acquainted with these concepts. Yes, getting your hands on things and actually doing the work is a good experience, but you can pickup on some of this from reading. At the very least, the intern or assistant should ask these kinds of questions when the opportunity presents itself.
tell that to the 20% unemployed, underemployed, and given up looking.
Old 6th September 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
 
hociman's Avatar
 

Question ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
tell that to the 20% unemployed, underemployed, and given up looking.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Please elaborate.
Old 6th September 2011
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I was talking to a person who works in management for a local TV station . He was telling me about the changes that are happening in local TV. None of the changes he mentioned seem good for the long term. Layoffs, salary reductions and self production (meaning that the talent is also the videographer and the the audio engineer and the lighting person). He was also mentioning, as others in the business have told me, that more and more "engineers" are being replaced by operators who know how to punch buttons and enter data via their keyboards but have nary a clue as to what is going on behind the front panels. The reason for this is a monetary one because the operators are paid about 1/3 to 1/2 as much as the engineers they are replacing.

The one thing he said that was most upsetting to me was they now have to be very careful when interviewing interns or giving tours to young television hopefuls. They cannot paint a bright future for them nor can they tell them what it is really like. Unfortunately these young hopefuls are being given mixed signals by their colleges and professionals in the business. The colleges want and need them as students so they are painting a really bright future for them but there are less and less jobs for them to fill and the broadcast media folks are telling them that there is not a bright future but cannot tell them exactly what is really happening behind the scenes. With all the mixed signals being given out it is amazing that anyone can have a clear picture of where the profession is heading.

I really feel for the young college student who is looking at his or her life after college. They want to succeed and make it in their chosen profession but their chances of even getting a job in their field is diminishing by the day.

I am really glad I am NOT starting out.
jobs are tough for every graduate
population is growing faster than jobs
older people hanging on longer cause they cant retire yet

engineering is good
you will get a job - even the bad students
but
then at 40 you will get dumped
and replaced by the next freshout
so while you have a good job you better save save save
cause you are looking at 25-30 more years of mcd shifts
and by then no social security just your savings
Old 6th September 2011
  #17
We hire interns to work with our video production side of the business. One of the requirements is to be proficient with Final Cut Pro. Most of the interns say they are "proficient" but in reality nothing could be further from the truth. They may have played with it or they may have used it for a "class project" but they are far from proficient with it. I had one student who we interviewed. He had a whole list of "video credits" and a good demo DVD and seemed like a good candidate for the job.

I normally give potential interns a quick test to see if they really know what they are doing. I asked the potential intern to take a small video off our server and to re-edit it to take out the announcer's flubs and to then take the result and make it into a DVD which I would view.

His first problem was "what's a server???" his second problem "how do I access the server" his third problem "how do I edit this" and his forth problem how do I burn a DVD of this. Before I asked the student to perform these tasks I carefully explained how our system is setup and what the server was labeled on the network and what the short clip was labeled. I also gave the potential client a fresh new DVD in a case for him to use. Since he failed at even the most basic tasks I asked him how it was that he had all these credits. He said he was really a "director" and had always had someone else doing the technical junk (his words not mine) but he needed additional money so he thought he would come in apply for the job and take a couple of weeks to learn FCP. He said I never said anything about taking a "test" which was true. I guess he never heard of a pop quiz.

This is not an isolated case and we get people all the time who have good demo reels, lists of credits for videos they have worked on and still cannot do simple things with FCP. Why would they say they can do things when they cannot???

I think we need to go back to the master/apprentice way of doing things and get the students out of the classrooms and into someplace where they can learn at the knee of someone who really knows what they are doing and they can be subjected to things like deadlines, crappy incoming materials and demanding clients. College is GREAT for getting down the fundamentals but not so great for making someone into a video editor who can go out and get an entry level job.

MTCW and FWIW
Old 7th September 2011
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG View Post
Spinning on Gary's comment:
I worry that the knowledge of old, and by old I mean stuff like timecode, framerates , video reference and wordclock, is almost considered as unnecessary today.
Even stuff like video codecs and picture aspect ratios seems to be the knowledge of the very few these days.
I can't tell you how ecstatic I was to get a video/OMF with a 2-pop at the proper level and spotted correctly on a quick foley project I just wrapped. The fact that I actually GOT that excited is kind of a sad state of affairs.
Top Mentioned Products
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump