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How do I replace a band member? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 25th July 2014
  #1
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spindlebox's Avatar
How do I replace a band member?

I am in a big quandry here people, and I hope you give me a chance and not call me a jerk right out of the gate.

I have been playing with a drummer since 2009, and we have done some really great things in my band together. The problem is, he has become increasingly distracted over the past year (checking phone between songs at rehearsal for instance), and has never really gotten involved with band business - even given assignments over the years, which always fall by the wayside.

From a performance standpoint, I would give him a B-. He used to rehearse at home with a metronome, but over the past 5 years, I have really not seen him improve or evolve with the rest of us. I also took a vacation 2 weeks ago and was listening to a couple previous albums of ours, and just lamented some of the slightly off time performances on the albums. He has never been 100% solid.

This is what happened to me last weekend.

I met somebody else. LOL. I own a recording studio, and this young band came in with this drummer that was simply incredible. Think TAYLOR HAWKINS / DAVE GROHL here. Yes, he really was that good. At the end of their session, he wanted to record some drum tracks, and brought in some MP3's to play along with. In a couple cases, I had to set up a metronome for him. This guy NAILED each take, almost perfectly, hardly EVER deviating from the click. He was doing incredible 16'ths at times with tom fills, and kick pedal hits (using ONE pedal by the way). Just blew my mind.

Then he told me this band was breaking up, and he was interested in working with me. He listened to my band, and was REALLY interested in working with me.

SO....that's where I am.

This guy would make my band 200% better. We're writing and just going to be starting to record new material. Rehearsing last night, and listening to my current drummer - was SUCH a let down. He has been playing 30 years, and this kid that came in is only 20. He blows my drummer away so bad, it isn't even funny.

What should I do?!
Old 25th July 2014
  #2
I think if it ultimately advances your band's music to what you actually want, go for it.
Think of it as what it could be and what it currently is.

Also, I'm a drummer too and I'd understand you. And even though it's a bummer, only a fool would let his band not advance to higher ground. If you don't hire him, then who?
Old 25th July 2014
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordae View Post
I think if it ultimately advances your band's music to what you actually want, go for it.
Think of it as what it could be and what it currently is.

Also, I'm a drummer too and I'd understand you. And even though it's a bummer, only a fool would let his band not advance to higher ground. If you don't hire him, then who?
I know man, it just doesn't make it any easier.

Did I also mention that at the last show he sat on the couches where people were walking in and nodded off? During the other band's sets? UGH.
Old 25th July 2014
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Sounds like he's not too interested anymore so he probably won't mind.

MAYBE, he might even want to stop but doesn't want to let you down or something like that, so by letting him go he might actually be grateful.

Ultimately though I personally would tell him to get lost especially if he's dragging things down and you have a real opportunity to get a good drummer.
Old 25th July 2014
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kochamara View Post
Sounds like he's not too interested anymore so he probably won't mind.

MAYBE, he might even want to stop but doesn't want to let you down or something like that, so by letting him go he might actually be grateful.

Ultimately though I personally would tell him to get lost especially if he's dragging things down and you have a real opportunity to get a good drummer.
I think he'll mind. I think he'll be pretty pissed actually.

But I know what you mean. I just need to get my head and heart in alignment. I don't hate the guy for Pete's Sake.

I need also to not be hasty. We have 2 big gigs on September 5th and 13th respectively, that we're making good money at. I'm not booking after the 13th.

We are recording this weekend, and I am going to have him record on a click. He's done it before, so since these recordings are going to be "writing tools" (at least that's how I'm selling it), it will be easier for me to do the following.

Once the recordings are done, I'm going to send the songs (without drums) to the new drummer and have him learn/write parts. I'm then going to have him come into the studio and record HIS parts on the drums. This will make my decision process all the more clear. It will also show me his work ethic and reliability. It will also enable me to play the results to the other band members. What I THINK will happen is, once they hear how SICK this kid is on drums - the decision process will be all the easier. For all of us.
Old 25th July 2014
  #6
Gear Nut
My band recently replaced a member who was "not into it" anymore and now the whole band is re-energized. That's also a good approach to discuss with your drummer that it's obvious to the band he looks and acts like he'd rather be somewhere else and not enjoying himself in the band anymore. When we used this approach on our member they realized it as true and made a graceful exit on their own.
Old 25th July 2014
  #7
I guess you have to differentiate between what is good for the band and your friendship with the drummer. I know it is hard to do. I have had to replace people who work with me and since most of the people who work with me are also good friends I found myself in a quandary every time I have to do it. Best of luck and let us know how it goes...
Old 25th July 2014
  #8
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Thanks pDiddy and Thomas.

Yeah, my head knows what is right, but my heart just hates it.

This just seems to be something that kind of is "MEANT" to happen - not to get all HIPPY and ETHEREAL, but it is something that has been bugging me for the past YEAR. Our last show was on July 11th (the one he fell asleep at). I talked to him (via Facebook, since after rehearsal he can't leave fast enough), and explained my concerns and was trying to get to the bottom of it. I think him and his wife are having trouble on top of it all. He asked for patience. So this is adding insult to injury, making it even tougher for me. I don't like to kick a man, a friend/associate, when he's down.

Then, just when I'm going through all of this - a band comes in with an amazing drummer who is about to become available, that also happens to really love our material.

Meant to be? I dunno, but my wheels are definitely spinning relentlessly.
Old 25th July 2014
  #9
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Also, during that Facebook conversation, he stated to me " I feel I am still playing at a pretty high level".

I don't think his idea of a HIGH LEVEL and my idea of a HIGH LEVEL are quite in sync.
Old 25th July 2014
  #10
Is it about being friends in a band or about the music?

Sounds like it's about the music and you need to replace the drummer.

You could always do the classic 'break up and form a new band' approach.
Old 25th July 2014
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuitarist View Post

You could always do the classic 'break up and form a new band' approach.
No, I need to "MAN UP" and be honest about this face to face with him. I think that approach would be cowardly on my part.

It's definitely about the music. It has to be.
Old 25th July 2014
  #12
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Sit him down and put the ginger baker movie on Netflix, and say stuff like

"man ,you should play like that" .....oh, and by the way "You're fired"

LOL, seriously I feel ya....the social intricasies of band life are like trying to dance

on a minefield at times.
Old 25th July 2014
  #13
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
Also, during that Facebook conversation, he stated to me " I feel I am still playing at a pretty high level".

I don't think his idea of a HIGH LEVEL and my idea of a HIGH LEVEL are quite in sync.
So he's delusional too?
Good luck, they always take it personally when reality strikes. He's really gonna be miffed when your band reaches the next level without him. The bright side is that he will soon find some other cause that is against him and you won't be the villain for very long.
Old 25th July 2014
  #14
Gear Head
 

I've been in almost the same predicament, only the (relatively new) singer developed a dislike for the drummer over time, who was a founding member of the band, and had been in previous bands along with the bass player.
The singer persuaded us to audition drummers and we eventually found a hot young drummer with a much better kit and much more enthusiasm. We rehearsed a lot, got really tight, worked and travelled and got along well.
But in my opinion the bass and drums never gelled again like they did when I joined the band, and that feel was what attracted me to them.

Your new young drummer might be really good with the click track, but how will he be with the bass?

We would play back recorded music and listen to it all together and comment on bum notes and off-time things. This little bit of pressure (nasty looks etc.) made us keep on top of things. Maybe your old drummer just needs a "talking to".
Old 25th July 2014
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
I think he'll mind. I think he'll be pretty pissed actually.

But I know what you mean. I just need to get my head and heart in alignment. I don't hate the guy for Pete's Sake.

I need also to not be hasty. We have 2 big gigs on September 5th and 13th respectively, that we're making good money at. I'm not booking after the 13th.

We are recording this weekend, and I am going to have him record on a click. He's done it before, so since these recordings are going to be "writing tools" (at least that's how I'm selling it), it will be easier for me to do the following.

Once the recordings are done, I'm going to send the songs (without drums) to the new drummer and have him learn/write parts. I'm then going to have him come into the studio and record HIS parts on the drums. This will make my decision process all the more clear. It will also show me his work ethic and reliability. It will also enable me to play the results to the other band members. What I THINK will happen is, once they hear how SICK this kid is on drums - the decision process will be all the easier. For all of us.
How much does the current drummer write with the band / how intricate / important to the music are the actual drum beats?

i.e. if the drums are relatively simple for most songs; and you guys typically write everything and he is just playing back beat to it; then it makes it a simple easy decision to justify getting a better performer.

But if he is a creative drummer who writes drums that compliment the music well and are key to the vibe / feel of the songs; I'd really want to make sure you're getting at least that or better with the new guy.

I would purposefully not give the new guy the old drum beats at all to see what he comes up with on his own; and maybe just have a few jam sessions to see how his creativity is.
Old 25th July 2014
  #16
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Well if that other band is breaking-up, then tell your current drummer there's an opening. Who knows, maybe it'll work-out better for everyone. I love win-win situations, nothings as good
Old 25th July 2014
  #17
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BillSimpkins's Avatar
He will probably thank you for replacing him.
Old 26th July 2014
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim Phoney View Post
I've been in almost the same predicament, only the (relatively new) singer developed a dislike for the drummer over time, who was a founding member of the band, and had been in previous bands along with the bass player.
The singer persuaded us to audition drummers and we eventually found a hot young drummer with a much better kit and much more enthusiasm. We rehearsed a lot, got really tight, worked and travelled and got along well.
But in my opinion the bass and drums never gelled again like they did when I joined the band, and that feel was what attracted me to them.

Your new young drummer might be really good with the click track, but how will he be with the bass?

We would play back recorded music and listen to it all together and comment on bum notes and off-time things. This little bit of pressure (nasty looks etc.) made us keep on top of things. Maybe your old drummer just needs a "talking to".
I just recorded this new drummer with his band, and if it wasn't for him, that band really would have sucked. He does his job - beautifully.
Old 26th July 2014
  #19
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spindlebox's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiimba View Post
How much does the current drummer write with the band / how intricate / important to the music are the actual drum beats?

i.e. if the drums are relatively simple for most songs; and you guys typically write everything and he is just playing back beat to it; then it makes it a simple easy decision to justify getting a better performer.

But if he is a creative drummer who writes drums that compliment the music well and are key to the vibe / feel of the songs; I'd really want to make sure you're getting at least that or better with the new guy.

I would purposefully not give the new guy the old drum beats at all to see what he comes up with on his own; and maybe just have a few jam sessions to see how his creativity is.
He isn't a major contributor to the songwriting process. He has basically copied what I have written for him, but has come up with some cool things on his own. We are growing however and I am not worried about losing something that has not played a major fact in that department.
Old 26th July 2014
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM View Post
Well if that other band is breaking-up, then tell your current drummer there's an opening. Who knows, maybe it'll work-out better for everyone. I love win-win situations, nothings as good
That band is breaking up.
Old 26th July 2014
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSimpkins View Post
He will probably thank you for replacing him.
I wish!
Old 26th July 2014
  #22
The only thing tougher than kicking out a long term member of a band, is quitting one.
Old 26th July 2014
  #23
Gear Nut
 

Deleted by poster: accidental double post.

Last edited by Miffytherabbit; 26th July 2014 at 06:03 AM.. Reason: Accidental double post.
Old 26th July 2014
  #24
Gear Nut
 

I think you've already made up your mind that you are going to sack your old drummer.

Before moving into sound engineering in my early twenties, I had been playing the piano from a young age, and eventually studied music at university (I've now "retired" from sound engineering and have moved back into playing & composing). I played in a couple of university bands, and oddly, in both bands, the "founder" of each undemocratically replaced the drummer without consulting the rest of us (why is it always the drummer - there does seem to be a theme? I found both drummers perfectly good at playing, but being a rather un-combative person, I accepted the "wisdom" of the founders of these groups in a rather cowardly fashion).

At the end of three years with the second band I'd played with, I had a quiet but not insignificant apathy towards the founder (he was the guitarist), but in hindsight I can see it was because we were simply very different personalities. I left the group when I began sound engineering on a full-time basis.

The remarks you've made about your old drummer aren't very complimentary or edifying. Perhaps you just don't like this person being in the group any more - which I'm pretty certain is a common phenomena between band members.
Some of the criticisms you make about the drummer have a sense of the trivial & petty - a collection of resentments which, summed together, have coalesced into dislike and a loss of respect.

It may well be the case that he silently doubts your own competence & ability - in the same way that you question his aptitude in your posts on this thread. Hypothetically, if I knew that a fellow band member was criticising my capabilities behind my back on a public forum, which was being read by hundreds of people, I don't honestly think I would want to remain in the same creative orbit as the person who had disparaged me in that kind of way. It would certainly make me feel unvalued and unable to retain any trust in the band.

Really good collaborations often come about when those working together in a group can offer genuinely constructive criticism in a positive & thoughtful manner. Then, if an individual really is falling behind with their skills, the group can work as a unit to encourage and help that person get back up to speed, which ultimately benefits all those concerned. However, I guess it isn't always possible for a group of people to work in this way, particularly if colliding egos become insurmountable obstructions.

If I were in your situation, I would let your band member down with extreme care and try and put yourself in his shoes when imagining how it is likely to affect him on an emotional level. It is necessary to contemplate the real possibility that any friendship he has towards you may be irrevocably damaged or unsalvageable. Perhaps he will feel relief.

I am sorry if this post is blunt. I've tried to imagine how I would feel, were I your band's drummer and I had been made aware of the opinions you've expressed in your posts. I felt that I should be honest, as you were seeking the opinions of others. Perhaps it was not intentional, but some of the unkind pronouncements you've made about your drummer on this forum have given an unfortunate and - most probably - an inaccurate impression that you appear to be disloyal and opportunistic. Whilst in many bands it doesn't necessarily follow that being bosom-buddies with fellow band members is an essential component, trust, in my view, is.

Subconsciously, there is a strong possibility that he "knows" that something is not right, he probably just doesn't know what is wrong. We all grow apart from people sometimes. You change, they change, and ambivalence or dislike is the long shadow that sometimes replaces friendliness, cooperation and camaraderie.

Last edited by Miffytherabbit; 26th July 2014 at 06:57 AM.. Reason: Grammar and vocabulary amendments.
Old 26th July 2014
  #25
Gear Nut
 

Taking the drummers perspective for a moment.

Maybe he feels the band has not made it "big" and its been 5 years, and somehow thinks it is was your job to take the band to success and not his at all. And it is you that has staggnated the band ....I am of course speculating here.

His idea idea of success to date may well differ from your idea of success to date....just a thought.
Old 26th July 2014
  #26
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spindlebox's Avatar
Thanks Miffy and Clothiers, you offer another perspective that I appreciate.

Even though I have not named said person or my band, so as to call attention to them, me holding back and being honest about my feelings and his actions/inactions are the only way that I can paint a true picture - however uncomplimentary it may seem. My point in posting here was to get honest opinions, and I appreciate yours - whatever you may think of me. At the end of the day, you don't know me nor I you, so I feel like I have what I need from this forum to move forward - and I appreciate everyone who contributed.

As far as clothears statement and speculation about it perhaps being MY job to make it big - if any ONE person is responsible for a group's success than that person should probably have the power to do what he or she likes. In our case, as I am the founder of the band - perhaps you are right, maybe I am the one that is stagnating the band - but I would rather stagnate the band with a superior drummer who gives more than 4 hours per week to help "sink the ship", and stays awake during nights out. Then he and I can go down together.

Best wishes
Old 26th July 2014
  #27
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
Thanks Miffy and Clothiers, you offer another perspective that I appreciate.

Even though I have not named said person or my band, so as to call attention to them, me holding back and being honest about my feelings and his actions/inactions are the only way that I can paint a true picture - however uncomplimentary it may seem. My point in posting here was to get honest opinions, and I appreciate yours - whatever you may think of me. At the end of the day, you don't know me nor I you, so I feel like I have what I need from this forum to move forward - and I appreciate everyone who contributed.

As far as clothears statement and speculation about it perhaps being MY job to make it big - if any ONE person is responsible for a group's success than that person should probably have the power to do what he or she likes. In our case, as I am the founder of the band - perhaps you are right, maybe I am the one that is stagnating the band - but I would rather stagnate the band with a superior drummer who gives more than 4 hours per week to help "sink the ship", and stays awake during nights out. Then he and I can go down together.

Best wishes
I've tried to clarify my post a bit. I feel that I should reinforce the point that perceptions aren't necessarily the same as reality. As I said in my post, I don't believe in all likelihood that you are disloyal per se, I've just tried to put myself in the boots of your drummer, and how he might react to what is a life changing event for all of you.

On reflection I can see that it makes absolute sense for you to anonymously discuss this issue in a place where other people may have faced the same dilemma. To also know that the replies you have received in light of your dilemma have been unbiased by virtue of the fact that GS members are unlikely to be in your private life must be valuable. I can imagine there is a possibility that there might not be many people you know directly with whom you could talk to about the situation for obvious reasons.

I have always had a tendency to empathise with those in situations who might be referred to as the under-dog. Your candour initially struck me as uncaring, but the moment struck me a few minutes ago that I had not put myself in your shoes. It is clear to me now that you were impaled on the horns of a really difficult dilemma.

One of the reasons I have always composed alone and worked alone is that it enables me to avoid potentially upsetting situations, such as the one you have described. The down side to this is that I miss out on the joy of collaborating. I'm glad that you have been able to come to a decision, and I wish you the best of luck with your band and every success.

Miffyrabbit.
Old 26th July 2014
  #28
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Thank you Miffy, I really appreciate that - but I also did appreciate your earlier perspective.

I have always been the person in bands - even from 20 years ago, that has assumed a leadership role, so it is always up to me to come to these conclusions on my own and falls to me to have to execute the actions.

I had to fire a drummer 20 years ago too - totally nice guy, but he just didn't have the skill set we needed - it really held us back. It fell to me, and I felt awful. I have been thinking of that situation a lot over the last couple of days.

But this is why I have kept my current drummer's name and my band name out of this - I knew I was going to have to be brutally honest and try to paint a clear picture. I didn't have the internet 20 years ago to help gain different perspectives and experience, so I value the input of everyone here. I do not expect everyone to agree with me, or even to like what I'm doing. But at the end of the day, I feel as a leader I have to at least consider opportunities that come our way - and weigh any problems that the band is having, and try to fix them in the best way for everyone. My band is not a democracy, and everyone knew that coming in. However, I try and make decisions based on everyone's input. After all, what good would it be to have people dragged along kicking and screaming?

That having been said, this is honestly one of the toughest things I have had to face with this band. But this is NOT something I have been thinking about over just this week. Another member of the band and I were just talking tonight about everything that has happened over the past year, and pointed out that we both have had legitimate gripes for at least the past 12-18 months.

Again, thank you for your candor and valuable experience. I do enjoy working with others, however, and I think it is worth even the largest disputes with collaborators to bring out the best in yourself - as long as it remains a civil dispute! :D

Cheers,
Spindlebox
Old 26th July 2014
  #29
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
Thank you Miffy, I really appreciate that - but I also did appreciate your earlier perspective.

I have always been the person in bands - even from 20 years ago, that has assumed a leadership role, so it is always up to me to come to these conclusions on my own and falls to me to have to execute the actions.

I had to fire a drummer 20 years ago too - totally nice guy, but he just didn't have the skill set we needed - it really held us back. It fell to me, and I felt awful. I have been thinking of that situation a lot over the last couple of days.

But this is why I have kept my current drummer's name and my band name out of this - I knew I was going to have to be brutally honest and try to paint a clear picture. I didn't have the internet 20 years ago to help gain different perspectives and experience, so I value the input of everyone here. I do not expect everyone to agree with me, or even to like what I'm doing. But at the end of the day, I feel as a leader I have to at least consider opportunities that come our way - and weigh any problems that the band is having, and try to fix them in the best way for everyone. My band is not a democracy, and everyone knew that coming in. However, I try and make decisions based on everyone's input. After all, what good would it be to have people dragged along kicking and screaming?

That having been said, this is honestly one of the toughest things I have had to face with this band. But this is NOT something I have been thinking about over just this week. Another member of the band and I were just talking tonight about everything that has happened over the past year, and pointed out that we both have had legitimate gripes for at least the past 12-18 months.

Again, thank you for your candor and valuable experience. I do enjoy working with others, however, and I think it is worth even the largest disputes with collaborators to bring out the best in yourself - as long as it remains a civil dispute! :D

Cheers,
Spindlebox
Hello again Spindlebox

Thanks so much for your reply. It's rare indeed to encounter people like yourself who are so open-minded and who have the courage to put something out there and accept criticism without complaint, but with appreciation. The more I've reflected on your situation the more I can see that you are considering the band as a whole and the admirable desire to retain a high standard in the musicianship of the band and its overall integrity.

I was trained as a pianist before moving into sound engineering - a career I had to give up in 2008 due, to use an old-fashioned term, a nervous breakdown. I decided to go back to what I loved - playing and writing music. It is has been a bit of a hike, but it proves that clouds do have silver linings. Whilst I only make a peppercorn income now, I'm happier than I've been for many years. I engineered for 14 years, so I was both figuratively and literally looking in and listening to the personal and musical interactions and the unfolding interplay that occurred between groups and bands. Sound engineers often inhabit an odd dimension that is neither truly on one side of the glass or the other. I guess a lot of sound engineers, unlike producers, tend to be beta rather than alpha males. This is one reason I'm not cut out to lead.

I guess the things that people find interesting in other people or groups are opposite to what they are themselves. I couldn't imagine leading a group for a moment - I think it takes a lot of confidence, but I know for certain that all groups & bands need a leader. I haven't come across a band that doesn't have one. From observation, the real fireworks occur when two people in a band are leaders! I imagine that guiding a band as its leader is both enervating and onerous - I know that being a solo musician I miss out on that magic which you must be so familiar with and which is unique to a group of musicians sitting down together - the moment when creative synchronicity between like minded people occurs and it is electrifying. It is thrilling to observe and hear, so it must be truly exhilarating for a band playing together when those events happen.

It's interesting how some people naturally want to guide, and others are happy to be guided. Letting go of band members - and having to bring that about is something that few people would be able to do, I imagine and I don't envy the situation you face. The more I think of it, the more I know deep down that drummers are a "special case" - as you described it, when you get a brilliant drummer, they usually are, literally brilliant. I've noticed over the years that whilst it's a generalisation, they tend to either be average or just brilliant. You don't tend to hear crappy drummers in bands. I have heard crappy guitarists, keyboard players and vocalists. I'm not sure I'm articulating myself very well, but it's either "Yep, they can keep things going" or "Jesus!!! That is mind-blowing!"

I think quite a lot of non-musicians often don't grasp the maypole effect of drummers. They are the often the source around which everyone and every other sound orbits. I can see why the prospect of having a fabulous drummer could be so pivotal for your band and yourself. It is really sad that your old drummer has sonically "sagged", perhaps this will reenergise him, with luck, and fate might bring new possibilities for him too. I've found for myself, as I mentioned above, that good things coming off the back of adversity is not as unlikely as it sounds.

It seems a bit tangential, but people often say when their partnership or marriage ends that their relationship was a failure, simply because it has ended. I've always thought that this is an odd way of thinking, because in many, many cases, whilst they were together for the majority of their time they were happy - so it can't have been a failure. It was a successful situation, often until very late in the game. Is it possible that the situation was like that with your drummer, metaphorically, because you mentioned you did'nt start having serious issues up until what feels like relatively recently (18 months?) So the road you've all travelled on musically hasn't failed, it's a been a success for nearly all of the drive. But now it's time to go in different directions with new possibilities for all of you. Do you think that might be a possibility? I know what I'm trying to express, but I've probably not done it very well!

Bestest,

Miffyrabbit
Old 26th July 2014
  #30
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AllAboutTone's Avatar
 

I think I read the normal actions of a drummer. Mine is texting while we are playing a song...........
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