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How do I replace a band member? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 26th July 2014
  #31
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Jazz Noise's Avatar
In terms of playing, is it possible you're more forgiving of your practice than his? When you take out your phone, is it <only because reason you think is valid> vs. him dicking around.

Record one of your next gigs on a H4. Do you all make far less mistakes than the drummer? Is this a group culture thing or is it really the drummer? You need to be objective. To be properly diplomatic I'd do that, get the drummer to acknowledge it and set a time period for him to get his playing back together. If he doesn't, make the swap. Nothing personnel, he's the one who decided not to put in the energy and the rest of the band can't be expected to suffer for that.
Old 26th July 2014
  #32
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spindlebox's Avatar
Miffy,

It is interesting because I too am a sound engineer. I own a recording studio that I built with my own hands in my renovated cellar - I opened it to the public 3½ years ago and business is good! So this is exactly how I found this new drummer. Like you, and as a result of my vocation of course, I have seen and recorded many many drummers. I record the bands live here too and all great recordings start with a tight solid foundation of drums. Without the drums, you really don't have anything. So drums make a HUGE difference. Always. Like you said, there are drummers who keep time, and there are the occasional drummer that totally just makes people's jaws drop. That's what I want for my group. It is something I have always wanted, but they are rare - and rarely available.

That's why I almost think this situation is divine providence of sorts. LOL.

I have always found myself in a leadership position - from bands to being self employed. I am just one of those people that creates opportunities for himself and those around me. I don't wait for things to happen, and if I really want something, I either 1) figure out how to get it on my own, or 2) approach other people that can help me with my plans. I make it happen. I am extremely driven and I have tried to learn patience, empathy and diplomacy over the years - but people like me sometimes are like black holes, drawing people into the whirlwind and you either survive or you get crushed. I'm not saying it's bad or it's good - but that it is what it is. But again, I have hurt people in the past, especially when younger, so I do want to make sure that I'm doing this for the right reasons and then go about it in a manner and air of respect and humility - with my hat in hand.

You're right about the success part. I don't think what we've done has been unsuccessful by any means and I am proud of what we have done together when looking at the big picture. But there comes the time when you must continually reach for more, to challenge yourself and your cohorts, or you will never personally or professionally get better. I am willing to make the tough decisions when it comes to myself, my bandmates and our music. It means the world to me. I don't have delusions of grandeur - thinking we are going to be the next Beatles, or even "make it" in this day and age - whatever that constitutes. But I do know that I have certain personal aspirations when it comes to myself and my art, and when I find the opportunity to better it for most everyone involved - it is something I have to very strongly consider. I would be a fool not to, and from a leadership perspective, I feel I owe it to everyone involved.

It is definitely not easy being the leader, but every successful band has one. And ONLY one. (Though I sometimes yearn to sit in the backseat sometimes and do as I'm told.) I started this band and everyone involved knows that it is "my" band. I did this on purpose, so I would not have to brook any dissent in the "ranks". I have a vision, and I have learned to trust everyone I am involved with. I have found that bands that do not have a structure like this - inevitably wind up on a VH1 "Behind the Music" segment that is less than flattering. LOL. I do however, respect and trust them all enough that I rarely have to pull rank.

Like on this decision, as we are all going to be strongly affected by it, we have to all be in agreement. My only worry is my guitarist. He and my drummer have a history together, and though they don't hang out outside of the band, I have to consider that. I just can't see, though, after my guitarist hears this new drummer - with his own 30-year something history of participating in "the struggle", how he won't see the light.
Old 26th July 2014
  #33
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spindlebox's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz Noise View Post
In terms of playing, is it possible you're more forgiving of your practice than his? When you take out your phone, is it <only because reason you think is valid> vs. him dicking around.

Record one of your next gigs on a H4. Do you all make far less mistakes than the drummer? Is this a group culture thing or is it really the drummer? You need to be objective. To be properly diplomatic I'd do that, get the drummer to acknowledge it and set a time period for him to get his playing back together. If he doesn't, make the swap. Nothing personnel, he's the one who decided not to put in the energy and the rest of the band can't be expected to suffer for that.
No, none of us are perfect (I don't know anyone that is), but I have been told by some members (I play bass), that my timing is even better than his. Whether other musicians acknowledge it or not, the drums and bass are KEY to a successful & strong band. They are the unsung heroes of the band. Without that, you don't really have anything.

As I stated in my earlier post, I am a recording engineer, and mixing engineer - and I know what a good rhythm section can do for a band. Not only mine, but many many band that come through here. It just really makes or breaks a band. As part of that rhythm section, I will admit I am both biased, and I yearn for a partner that will challenge me and make me even better.

I had a drummer like this once and he went on to play with Paula Cole and is now a key member of the Blue Man Group. He made me a better bass player.

And I DO NOT take out my phone during rehearsal. I just don't. I'm there to work. I find myself looking over my shoulder waiting for him to put his phone down and start the next song. I'm sorry, but that is annoying.

We have plenty of video of us playing live. One thing I do know - a farty or missed note is one thing during a performance, but a complete breakdown of the rhythm section is near disastrous. I never know if he's going to drop a stick during a key moment, or just completely break down. It has happened more times than I care to remember - and it hurts.

As people, we all get along really good - until recently really. I am being objective about this and weighing all options. It is something that has been bothering me for a while, and I should mention that talking to him about it rarely results in a calm conversation, especially from his standpoint. And then he gets back on his phone to play Songpop or whatever else he's doing.
Old 26th July 2014
  #34
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OP, my approach to this type of dilemma would be first dependent on what type of band was involved. A cover band and an original band are different. IMO the most important overall aspect to an originals band is writing great songs. Therefore:

Factor___________________% of importance to success
Great original songs_________99.99 %
Musicianship of Drummer_____00.01 %

A cover band conversely is primarily dependent on showmanship and musicianship. Therefore if four people are members of the band:

Factor____________________% of importance to success
Musicianship of members_____75 %
Musicianship of Drummer_____25% %

Obviously I'm exaggerating, but there is a difference regarding what type of band is being discussed.

But there's another factor here that's perhaps more important; Personal/work relation issues are just as important and just as valid for reasons to fire as musicianship. I've had to be on the side to fire band members and it's rarely about musicianship.
Old 26th July 2014
  #35
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spindlebox's Avatar
Ric, you can't be serious. Are you telling me that in an original band, where everyone is expected to write their parts, that you think THE DRUMMER's musicianship is only 1% important? Either you have a VERY low regard for drums and low respect for drummers in general, or you are not very good at writing music and have NO IDEA what is involved.

How do you expect that 99.99% of great original songs to be written? Do you not consider drums a part of the music?

For the record, we are a completely original band, and I have always worked with original bands. Every single band I've ever been in, the drums have played a huge part in our songwriting process - sometimes even a cool groove or jam can develop around the drumbeat itself.

I'm sorry, but your post is just silly.
Old 26th July 2014
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
Ric, you can't be serious. Are you telling me that in an original band, where everyone is expected to write their parts, that you think THE DRUMMER's musicianship is only 1% important? Either you have a VERY low regard for drums and low respect for drummers in general, or you are not very good at writing music and have NO IDEA what is involved.

How do you expect that 99.99% of great original songs to be written? Do you not consider drums a part of the music?

For the record, we are a completely original band, and I have always worked with original bands. Every single band I've ever been in, the drums have played a huge part in our songwriting process - sometimes even a cool groove or jam can develop around the drumbeat itself.

I'm sorry, but your post is just silly.
You missed the part where I wrote I was obviously exaggerating but my point stands and I ask the same of you: Are you kidding me?

Great songs are what makes a band. Great melody.

You say every single band you've been in the drums have played a huge part in your songwriting process. My experience is exactly the opposite, a drummer has never been a part of songwriting, but good luck to you.
Old 26th July 2014
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicTone View Post

Great songs are what makes a band. Great melody.
The songs are part of it, but a bad drummer or bass player will kill the groove and feel of every song the band plays. We've all heard sucky covers bands that murder every song they touch.....
Old 26th July 2014
  #38
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spindlebox's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicTone View Post
You missed the part where I wrote I was obviously exaggerating but my point stands and I ask the same of you: Are you kidding me?

Great songs are what makes a band. Great melody.

You say every single band you've been in the drums have played a huge part in your songwriting process. My experience is exactly the opposite, a drummer has never been a part of songwriting, but good luck to you.
Old 26th July 2014
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuitarist View Post
The songs are part of it, but a bad drummer or bass player will kill the groove and feel of every song the band plays. We've all heard sucky covers bands that murder every song they touch.....
Obviously that's true X one million. This conversation however has transitioned to the hypothesis of the OP original band necessitating a talented drummer in order to write great original songs.
Old 26th July 2014
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
Quite frankly you'd be making a mistake to fire a drummer that has extremely small impact on the relative success of your band.

Go ahead, ruin five years of friendship for nothing. Feel free to report back in a year from now on how it went.
Old 26th July 2014
  #41
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spindlebox's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicTone View Post
Quite frankly you'd be making a mistake to fire a drummer that has extremely small impact on the relative success of your band.

Go ahead, ruin five years of friendship for nothing. Feel free to report back in a year from now on how it went.
I guess what you're NOT getting, is how incredibly misguided and wrong you are, and the fact that I don't even REMOTELY agree with you is the main point in my side of this conversation.

By your logic, Queen's "We Will Rock You" with Roger Taylor's rhythm part, that sends people stomping in sports stadiums YEARS after it was written was not an important part of the song - in THAT original band.

Point served, proven and now I'm moving on.
Old 26th July 2014
  #42
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spindlebox's Avatar
http://www.reverbnation.com/audiocav...eprived-sample

Here is a sample of this drummer in action. It is hard to believe he is only 20.

Last edited by spindlebox; 27th July 2014 at 12:10 AM.. Reason: Broken link!! It works now.
Old 27th July 2014
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
I guess what you're NOT getting, is how incredibly misguided and wrong you are, and the fact that I don't even REMOTELY agree with you is the main point in my side of this conversation.

By your logic, Queen's "We Will Rock You" with Roger Taylor's rhythm part, that sends people stomping in sports stadiums YEARS after it was written was not an important part of the song - in THAT original band.

Point served, proven and now I'm moving on.
What you're not getting is my intent to you was positive for you and yet what I got back from you was negative toward me.

Really, give a report back in a year from now on how it went.
Old 27th July 2014
  #44
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
I have been told by some members (I play bass), that my timing is even better than his...

I yearn for a partner that will challenge me and make me even better...

I'm there to work. I find myself looking over my shoulder waiting for him to put his phone down and start the next song. I'm sorry, but that is annoying.

I never know if he's going to drop a stick during a key moment, or just completely break down. It has happened more times than I care to remember - and it hurts.....

It is something that has been bothering me for a while, and I should mention that talking to him about it rarely results in a calm conversation, especially from his standpoint.
Sounds like he's gone then.

What I would do in your situation is let the new guy learn, and have a run through, of a few songs, just bass and drums, to see if you do actually gel.
Then, if all goes well. I would explain the delicacy of the situation to him and ask him to come in for a second practice (plus jam) including the guitarist.

It is a sad fact that when the drummer loses it, half the time it seems as if the bass did. Must be frustrating for you. But it sounds like your drive and ambition is about to solve the problem. Good luck!
Old 27th July 2014
  #45
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spindlebox's Avatar
Sim,

Yes, I actually have a plan similar to that. We have 2 fairly large (and well paid) shows on the 5th and 13th of September, respectively - and I hope to have all of these decisions made by Mid-September. I am not going to be hasty. I actually had a chat with my current drummer a couple days ago, and I will see what happens with both his performance and attitude. I indicated to him my observations in a nice, diplomatic & friendly manner. We will see if he heeds any of my statements - especially the one where I said I needed my collaborators to be in it 100% along with me.

Meanwhile, I have a couple projects lined up with the new guy, mostly some new material to see what he comes up with, what his work ethic is like, his reliability, and enthusiasm - at the very least, I plan on keeping him handy for studio work!
Old 27th July 2014
  #46
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kafka's Avatar
A good band with a good drummer is a good band. A good band with a great drummer is a great band. Don't play in a good band. Play in a great band. Get a great drummer.

Sometimes life is really that simple.
Old 27th July 2014
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka View Post
A good band with a good drummer is a good band. A good band with a great drummer is a great band. Don't play in a good band. Play in a great band. Get a great drummer.

Sometimes life is really that simple.
It ain't that simple. Sometimes chemistry is chemistry regardless of an individual player's ability level (we are presuming competence at the very least obviously). Daryl Jones plays bass with the Stones. He is, at least by some people's estimation, one of the greatest bass-players in the world. Yet the Stones have always sounded lifeless and sterile with him. There's zero chemistry and no feel (for that band) and the groove is, well... there is no groove. With Wyman, (allegedly an inferior player technically), they had one of the greatest grooves of any band.
Old 27th July 2014
  #48
Here's something to think about: you currently don't know what the new drummers level of commitment/loyalty will be a few months down the road. If he's that good, what if in 4 months another, possibly better band makes him an offer. He's 20 something and you can bet he will leave you high and dry if the opportunity presents itself and it probably will. Then you have no drummer. I'd tell your current drummer he needs to work with a mentor to improve and stick with him. Much less risk if you go that route.
Old 27th July 2014
  #49
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kafka's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
It ain't that simple. Sometimes chemistry is chemistry regardless of an individual player's ability level (we are presuming competence at the very least obviously). Daryl Jones plays bass with the Stones. He is, at least by some people's estimation, one of the greatest bass-players in the world. Yet the Stones have always sounded lifeless and sterile with him. There's zero chemistry and no feel (for that band) and the groove is, well... there is no groove. With Wyman, (allegedly an inferior player technically), they had one of the greatest grooves of any band.
We're talking about drummers, not bass players. The drummer is too key to everyone to let slide. If the drummer isn't working, the band isn't working.

The OP says there's no chemistry or trust with the old drummer, so it's time for him to move on.
Old 27th July 2014
  #50
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brockorama's Avatar
 

The drums are such an integral part of every great riff ever written.

The drummer's level always dictates the level of the band in my experience.

If I care enough to look up from my beer to see what you are doing, it is probably because of the drummer.
Old 27th July 2014
  #51
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spindlebox's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
the drums are such an integral part of every great riff ever written.

The drummer's level always dictates the level of the band in my experience.

If i care enough to look up from my beer to see what you are doing, it is probably because of the drummer.
exactly!
Old 27th July 2014
  #52
Like the man said "A great Drummer can make an average band Very Good[or possibly great]

"An even greater Drummer can make a good band Incredible"

In live music especially,acoustic drums and obviously the drummer is way way more important for the music[regardless of genre-if acoustic drums are the percussion instrument] than almost anything else.

I'm a guitar player.

Like others have said,if music-playing,recording your own is what your really in this for,for me the answer is if you can go on the road,get along,you need this new guy.


Edit:I didn't read till the last post-Brockorama possibly put it more eloquently
Old 27th July 2014
  #53
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spindlebox's Avatar
Well, we just recorded 3 songs with the old drummer, on a click today. From a technical standpoint, he did OK. The first song was really rough. I just kept thinking about what the new drummer could do.

But what my plan is, I'm going to send the prospective drummer these songs after the rest of the band finishes our overdubs - and I'm going to see what he comes up with. He's also going to get the original demos so he can hear what I "had in mind" for the drums - and then he can interpret from there.

This will allow for me to gauge his creativity, work ethic and seriousness.

I'm then going to have him come in and record his drums on a copied version of the project.

I think I should be able to make up my mind at that point without any hesitation - either one way or the other.

But I felt guilty, I will have to admit, that I was even considering it during the day, with my drummer here. He was in a great mood and we had a good afternoon. But I have to think about what these songs and our band could be. When it comes down to brass tacks, my drummer just does not have the skill set that I have always wanted. This new kid does. You only have to listen to the sample I posted in post #43 to hear what I'm talking about.

It is a hard enough industry as it is, and if I have an opportunity to make us stand out and be better than ever before - I have to give it serious consideration. But I'm not going to be hasty.

Thanks everyone.
Old 28th July 2014
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
You only have to listen to the sample I posted in post #43 to hear what I'm talking about.
Link no worky!
Old 28th July 2014
  #55
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spindlebox's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
Link no worky!
FIXED!! Sorry
Old 28th July 2014
  #56
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kafka's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
FIXED!! Sorry
Sounds interesting. Not a good piece, though.
Old 28th July 2014
  #57
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glenn Taylor's Avatar
 

Someone earlier said "is it about friends or the music". I say maybe both. Some bands are great even though they hate each other or have some rub between members. Some bands are great or greater because they have strong friendships. Life is short if the new guy is a shot in the arm and the old guy has lost the dream. Move on gracefully.
Old 28th July 2014
  #58
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JoeyM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
That band is breaking up.
Right, so trade drummers.

Back to square one: why do people involve themselves in bands? Many reasons.

* If it's to entertain people, and that person in question does a good job, then don't fix what's not broke.

* If it's for personal entertainment then replace the bad drummer.

* If both are true, that is, you can't stand each other but audiences love the lineup, congratulations, you're Kieth Richards and Mick Jagger - don't listen to me, just send a pair of tickets!

But yeah, trade drummers. Why not?

Let us know how this plays out, I'd like to see what transpires

-UPDATE- after the fact I read the post right before mine (glenn Taylor) and he makes more sense that me. I should have read them all instead of replying to someone quoting me
Old 28th July 2014
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindlebox View Post
FIXED!! Sorry
I just listened. He's not very good. Sorry. No feel. Out of time with who he's playing with very badly in parts. And part-wise it's like he's playing a different song. Very bad.
Old 29th July 2014
  #60
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spindlebox's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
I just listened. He's not very good. Sorry. No feel. Out of time with who he's playing with very badly in parts. And part-wise it's like he's playing a different song. Very bad.
HAHAHAH!

Well, the guitarist is supposed to be playing with the drummer, but that didn't happen. If I would have taken the guitar out, you would have not noticed any timing issues.

It's the drummer that makes the tempo. NOT the other way around.

I guess I like ****ty drummers then? No problem. I'll take it.
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