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Don't buy AVID products right now
Old 17th March 2014
  #61
Lives for gear
 

I like Pro Tools. Love it would almost be more accurate. At least until the last 5 years or so.

It has made me a very nice living, starting with my first encounter: Sound Designer II, a barely functional 2 track program in the early 90's. I moved on and continued upgrading and growing with the program. It has always been rock solid. My current PT system is also solid, but has not been upgraded in a few years.

As much as I love Pro Tools, I have no love for Avid. They have taken my most useful tool to the brink of destruction. And may take it over the cliff. PT will survive, I have no doubt. Someone, somewhere, will buy the IP in the worst case scenario. The only questions are who, and what it will mean for near to medium term updates and improvements and bug fixes.

For that reason, I am in a holding pattern. I currently have two studios worth of rooms set around Pro Tools. And two traveling rigs with Pro Tools. I really want to upgrade them, and I really would prefer to stick to Pro Tools.

Given Avid's financial state, I dare not make a decision until the picture is more clear. That should begin in the next couple months, if Avid actually releases any new financials or announces some sort of plan for the future, beyond the enigmatic "Avid Everywhere" that was recently unveiled. I, personally, do not see this ending well for Avid.

As I said, I expect PT and the other IP (video, etc.) will survive, but probably under new ownership. THAT is what I am waiting for, before upgrading four systems worth of gear. And what I have still works fine, but as Windows and Mac OS's move forward, my hand will be forced at some point. I only hope that I can stick with Pro Tools, whether it is still owned by Avid or has been placed elsewhere. It has been an integral part of my success and I hope it can be so in the future.
Old 17th March 2014
  #62
Gear Maniac
PT is a pro piece of software..
It doesn't work I call my dedicated Mac OS team.

If I was racing on the 500 (I really know **** about racing)
And my wheel fell off, I'm not fixing it.. Some monkey is, they
Fix I mix
Old 17th March 2014
  #63
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFlood View Post
I like Pro Tools. Love it would almost be more accurate. At least until the last 5 years or so.

It has made me a very nice living, starting with my first encounter: Sound Designer II, a barely functional 2 track program in the early 90's. I moved on and continued upgrading and growing with the program. It has always been rock solid. My current PT system is also solid, but has not been upgraded in a few years.

As much as I love Pro Tools, I have no love for Avid. They have taken my most useful tool to the brink of destruction. And may take it over the cliff. PT will survive, I have no doubt. Someone, somewhere, will buy the IP in the worst case scenario. The only questions are who, and what it will mean for near to medium term updates and improvements and bug fixes.

For that reason, I am in a holding pattern. I currently have two studios worth of rooms set around Pro Tools. And two traveling rigs with Pro Tools. I really want to upgrade them, and I really would prefer to stick to Pro Tools.

Given Avid's financial state, I dare not make a decision until the picture is more clear. That should begin in the next couple months, if Avid actually releases any new financials or announces some sort of plan for the future, beyond the enigmatic "Avid Everywhere" that was recently unveiled. I, personally, do not see this ending well for Avid.

As I said, I expect PT and the other IP (video, etc.) will survive, but probably under new ownership. THAT is what I am waiting for, before upgrading four systems worth of gear. And what I have still works fine, but as Windows and Mac OS's move forward, my hand will be forced at some point. I only hope that I can stick with Pro Tools, whether it is still owned by Avid or has been placed elsewhere. It has been an integral part of my success and I hope it can be so in the future.
Agreed, Simone will buy PT
Old 17th March 2014
  #64
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John Moran's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
I would spend 5K a year in maintenance running my Studer 2 inch machine.
You must have had one messed up machine.
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Old 17th March 2014
  #65
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
I would spend 5K a year in maintenance running my Studer 2 inch machine.
Like the man said, there must be something very wrong with that machine. I too have a 2" machine and I have a couple of 1/4" machines and they all have been working since the 80s without incident and with me spending absolutely nothing on servicing.

Quote:
OMG Not another Avid's gonna die thread!
I do tend to agree here! We have been dancing around the demise of Avid for at least five years and it just seems to struggle on somehow, despite the losses.

There also seems to be certain amount of Schadenfreude over Avid's predicament. But the uncertainty means that we, along with many others, are hanging fire with any upgrades or changes, until we have clarity. I just wish that either the management pulls its collective finger out, sheds four of the seven layers of management, closes 28 of the 29 presitge offices around the World, dumps all the lines and options and products that only serve to confuse and generally just do a simple business 101.

Either that, or fail now and let someone else pick up the IP who understands the pro audio and video markets and can integrate them into existing mature product lines.
Old 17th March 2014
  #66
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John Moran's Avatar
 

The obvious problem impeding progress on an acquisition by a 3rd party is the books are, have been and continue to be a mess. No one would even look at them until the books are sorted out and then an outside forensic accounting will still need to be done again. They could go toes up before that gets done and then it gets parted out. Not much will happen before one of those two scenarios comes to pass. I have no dog in this fight, merely an interested observer of the biz but previous work on acquisitions tells me any interested parties are waiting. Why rush in to be white knight when you don't know what you are saving, if it's worth saving or can be had later at fire sale prices? Then again, Avid may just pull it out of the fire, stranger things have happened.

More popcorn while we watch and wait?
Old 19th March 2014
  #67
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moran View Post
You must have had one messed up machine.
Not really, Calibrations Mechanical, Electronic, Cleaning, replacing parts,
Capstan Motor $3200.00 a couple of years later a take up motor $1800.00, pinch rollers $800, MRL Tapes $400, Lamps, etc etc.
When you have a major breakdown you out for day or two - that is not free.
Downtime and basic averaged about 30 minutes per day that would be well over $3500.00/yr in labor alone.
These are not DAW's you don't turn them on and magic happens. They need a lot of TLC.
Old 24th March 2014
  #68
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John Moran's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
Not really, Calibrations Mechanical, Electronic, Cleaning, replacing parts,
Capstan Motor $3200.00 a couple of years later a take up motor $1800.00, pinch rollers $800, MRL Tapes $400, Lamps, etc etc.
When you have a major breakdown you out for day or two - that is not free.
Downtime and basic averaged about 30 minutes per day that would be well over $3500.00/yr in labor alone.
These are not DAW's you don't turn them on and magic happens. They need a lot of TLC.
Man, that machine was a train wreck.

I had an MTR-90II as well as 4trk MTR-12, MTR-10 1/4" TC Ctr track, two PCM 3324 synced via Adams Smith 2600/SSL computer and later the Lynx TC Modules also under the SSL and -never- had those sorts of issues. Ran that 90 for probably 20 years. Biggest issue was tape tension arm flexing if someone let a tape pack get loose but that's operator error.

Replaced the rubbers on the MTR-9o but never had a motor fail and maybe a lamp or two on the meters/buttons. The 3/4" U-matic for picture was a PITA at times but that's Umatics.

An MRL tape is a one time purchase, that comes with the territory and once the machine is set up, you make a shop tape that has tones and record pad so you don't beat the MRL up. If my second can't align a tape machine, he's not my second for very long. $3500 a year is nuts.
Old 26th March 2014
  #69
Gear Head
 
joey8989896's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacroMike View Post
This thread should be moved to the moan zone.
Thread about monopoly conglomerate gets shunned to the moan zone, dies and ends with talking about using tape back in the day when life was better.....
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Old 26th March 2014
  #70
Gear Head
 
joey8989896's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moran View Post
The obvious problem impeding progress on an acquisition by a 3rd party is the books are, have been and continue to be a mess. No one would even look at them until the books are sorted out and then an outside forensic accounting will still need to be done again. They could go toes up before that gets done and then it gets parted out. Not much will happen before one of those two scenarios comes to pass. I have no dog in this fight, merely an interested observer of the biz but previous work on acquisitions tells me any interested parties are waiting. Why rush in to be white knight when you don't know what you are saving, if it's worth saving or can be had later at fire sale prices? Then again, Avid may just pull it out of the fire, stranger things have happened.

More popcorn while we watch and wait?
thanks for this. would love to hear more. you think avid will go bankrupted and sell pro tools to a company that will take it to a new level or avid will suck the life out of it until everyone is using something else?
Old 26th March 2014
  #71
Gear Nut
 
MacroMike's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joey8989896 View Post
Thread about monopoly conglomerate gets shunned to the moan zone, dies and ends with talking about using tape back in the day when life was better.....
Hahahaha!
Old 26th March 2014
  #72
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moran View Post
Man, that machine was a train wreck.

I had an MTR-90II as well as 4trk MTR-12, MTR-10 1/4" TC Ctr track, two PCM 3324 synced via Adams Smith 2600/SSL computer and later the Lynx TC Modules also under the SSL and -never- had those sorts of issues. Ran that 90 for probably 20 years. Biggest issue was tape tension arm flexing if someone let a tape pack get loose but that's operator error.

Replaced the rubbers on the MTR-9o but never had a motor fail and maybe a lamp or two on the meters/buttons. The 3/4" U-matic for picture was a PITA at times but that's Umatics.

An MRL tape is a one time purchase, that comes with the territory and once the machine is set up, you make a shop tape that has tones and record pad so you don't beat the MRL up. If my second can't align a tape machine, he's not my second for very long. $3500 a year is nuts.
Sorry you have to pay people to work… downtime, set up time, alignment time.
Repair time replace bulbs, caps, My time is NOT FREE - maybe yours is.
And Wili Studer's part certainly were not fee either.
yes 1980 Studer A80II requires some TLC. It's all part of proper maintenance is professional facility
And you have a MTR 90 sorry a Studer blew those away as far sound quality.
Otari's sounds like a$$ compared too any Studer.
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Old 27th March 2014
  #73
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I've never run a professional facility...

Old 27th March 2014
  #74
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louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzomixer View Post
Yet another "I can't get Pro Tools to work, so it must be Avid's fault" thread. I see these so often on GS and the DUC. It seems that doing your research into hardware compatibility, recommended system optimisations, and reading the manual, are just not the done thing these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
OMG Not another Avid's gonna die thread!
Not another denial of Avid's problems and blaming the customer thread/battle...

Ever consider that there could in fact be a problem with this company which generates contempt in many many users??? and had been delisted from the stock exchange for not complying???? nah.. "all those people with problems are just incompetent no talent rookie fools." Give it up already.

"Nothing to see here.., (insert derogatory snarky comment)"

round and round we go...
Old 27th March 2014
  #75
WKG
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Not another denial of Avid's problems and blaming the customer thread/battle...

Ever consider that there could in fact be a problem with this company which generates contempt in many many users??? and had been delisted from the stock exchange for not complying???? nah.. "all those people with problems are just incompetent no talent rookie fools." Give it up already.

"Nothing to see here.., (insert derogatory snarky comment)"

round and round we go...
Pro Tools works fine here.

You are the only guy I have ever seen get banned from the DUC and it has been one of the most tolerant of forums in regards to public posting of product difficulty/dissatisfaction.
Old 27th March 2014
  #76
Gear Head
 
louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WKG View Post
Pro Tools works fine here.

You are the only guy I have ever seen get banned from the DUC and it has been one of the most tolerant of forums in regards to public posting of product difficulty/dissatisfaction.
Nice twist.... They never banned me...I was never notified of such ban or reason for such. I was simply blocked.. If it were the case, I find it complimentary that they banned me. Because I have never used personal attacks, foul language etc. I only voiced what the majority of Educated consumers feel about this company in such a way that they could not afford to have readers view the truth in my well written posts. I predicted their demise and coincidentally right before the news that they were delisted from the stock market I got blocked, without reason mind you!! HMM..maybe they didn't want to eat the "i told you so cake..etc" What is even more funny is the fact that many (AVID defending) users who insulted people and intentionally antagonized people were gladly accepted. I suppose you are also a fan of censorship?

I really do not care what your opinion of me is. However, the fact that you continue to justify such a pitifully operated company in the midst of their collapse makes my opinion of you rather sour.

Either way, have a great day. Nice seeing you here.
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Old 27th March 2014
  #77
WKG
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Nice twist.... They never banned me...I was never notified of such ban or reason for such. I was simply blocked.. If it were the case, I find it complimentary that they banned me. Because I have never used personal attacks, foul language etc. I only voiced what the majority of Educated consumers feel about this company in such a way that they could not afford to have readers view the truth in my well written posts. I predicted their demise and coincidentally right before the news that they were delisted from the stock market I got blocked, without reason mind you!! HMM..maybe they didn't want to eat the "i told you so..etc"

I really do not care what your opinion of me is. However, the fact that you continue to justify such a pitifully operated company in the midst of their collapse makes my opinion of you rather sour.

Either way, have a great day. Nice seeing you here.
I don't hold a personal opinion of you, I've learned that's never wise and usually not accurate based on forum postings alone.

There were a majority of educated consumers there who constantly tried to help you with your issues. Unfortunately your well written posts provided very little information do to so, despite numerous patient requests.

Point is Avid, despite whatever their corporate difficulties are right now, works for many people ranging from the hobbyist to top tier professionals on a regular and daily basis. My empathies go out to folks who have difficulties with their system no doubt but they generally can be resolved.
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Old 27th March 2014
  #78
Gear Head
 
louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WKG View Post
I don't hold a personal opinion of you, I've learned that's never wise and usually not accurate based on forum postings alone.

There were a majority of educated consumers there who constantly tried to help you with your issues. Unfortunately your well written posts provided very little information do to so, despite numerous patient requests.

Point is Avid, despite whatever their corporate difficulties are right now, works for many people ranging from the hobbyist to top tier professionals on a regular and daily basis. My empathies go out to folks who have difficulties with their system no doubt but they generally can be resolved.
I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you. However, I don't think you truly understand my issues, nor my goals. Please let me explain so you don't dismiss my ideas as ones deriving from a meaningless babbler..

Protools 10 works fine here too! (for the most part) After almost a year of toil, modifications to my system and wasted time troubleshooting, recovering data, and waiting for a gui bug to be fixed for 6 months while certain users blamed the customers and not the programmers along the way..this was all on the "other" "tolerable" forum. My problem as I have said and MANY MANY MANY others have, is with the customer relations, pricing, unreliable non-versatile premature software releases, using paying customers as beta testers and deliberate obsolescence of products, all for Avid's profit, at the expense of the customer.

I have been using protools for over ten years and my opinion of it is well earned at this point. Protools had the potential to be great, but AVID executives have deliberately sucked the life out of it and got rich doing so.

If you can't agree with me on these gripes, I totally understand. But please respect that I and many others have legitimate reasons to feel dissatisfied.

Thanks and have a nice day.

-Lou
Old 28th March 2014
  #79
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
majority of Educated consumers feel about this company
Gotta love internet trolls who claim to have their finger on the pulse of "educated consumers." What a ridiculous claim.
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Old 28th March 2014
  #80
Gear Head
 
louieshowers's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
Gotta love internet trolls who claim to have their finger on the pulse of "educated consumers." What a ridiculous claim.
The truth hurts doesn't it.. Tell me how Avid has delivered as whole to their customers. Show me that you have a "pulse" in your brain and provide a logical counter argument before calling names. Unless of course you are another Avid damage controller, if that's the case, go buy a life jacket and some swimmies. I'm all ears.
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Old 28th March 2014
  #81
Lives for gear
I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of the industry standard DAW.
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Old 28th March 2014
  #82
Gear Head
 
louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of the industry standard DAW.
boy you really showed me..since i have been using protools exclusively for 10 plus years..

Shall i go crank up my monitors and see whose are louder..i don't get it??

I picture this huge titanic size ship sinking and all of the crew are yelling ¨this ship is unsinkable...it´s the industry standard!!!¨¨¨bubble bubble bubble...

gotta go mix a tune...peace
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Old 29th March 2014
  #83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of the industry standard DAW.
Made me spill my coffee.
Old 30th March 2014
  #84
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Not another denial of Avid's problems and blaming the customer thread/battle...

Ever consider that there could in fact be a problem with this company which generates contempt in many many users??? and had been delisted from the stock exchange for not complying???? nah.. "all those people with problems are just incompetent no talent rookie fools." Give it up already.

"Nothing to see here.., (insert derogatory snarky comment)"

round and round we go...
If you think a company with a million registered ProTools users is going to go up in smoke and vanish - you need to do reality check.
There have been threads about's this demise for over decade and it hasn't happened yet and it's not going to happen tomorrow either.
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Old 30th March 2014
  #85
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KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Protools 10 works fine here too! (for the most part) After almost a year of toil, modifications to my system and wasted time troubleshooting, recovering data, and waiting for a gui bug to be fixed for 6 months
I have been using protools for over ten years and my opinion of it is well earned at this point. Protools had the potential to be great, but AVID executives have deliberately sucked the life out of it and got rich doing so.

-Lou
Wow that is really sad honestly, almost a year, no kiddin That is the ****s no doubt?' Wonder what happened? Cause I am just a simple musician and I simply downloaded 10 installed it and went about recording and mixing just like 9.8.7.6.5. Never did notice a GUI bug ? Then for 11, I waited for the Ilok debacle to subside, then downloaded and I did have to remove and reinstall my Waves plugs to work, cause a Waves one was causing a failed launch. But it has been smooth since then. As for your prediction of course any business can fail but I notice that when I go to the DUC or Avid it appears to still be there. Lets hope you are way mistaken
Old 30th March 2014
  #86
Gear Head
 
louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
If you think a company with a million registered ProTools users is going to go up in smoke and vanish - you need to do reality check.
There have been threads about's this demise for over decade and it hasn't happened yet and it's not going to happen tomorrow either.
If you don't think Avid is susceptible to failure at this very point in time, it begs to question what realm of reality you are living in. I actually just want them to be more realistic. i do not want them to fail. I just feel like they need to be called out on certain aspects of their customer relations approach.
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Old 30th March 2014
  #87
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louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Wow that is really sad honestly, almost a year, no kiddin That is the ****s no doubt?' Wonder what happened? Cause I am just a simple musician and I simply downloaded 10 installed it and went about recording and mixing just like 9.8.7.6.5. Never did notice a GUI bug ? Then for 11, I waited for the Ilok debacle to subside, then downloaded and I did have to remove and reinstall my Waves plugs to work, cause a Waves one was causing a failed launch. But it has been smooth since then. As for your prediction of course any business can fail but I notice that when I go to the DUC or Avid it appears to still be there. Lets hope you are way mistaken
For some, the GUI issue causing Protools 10 to freeze for a few seconds at a time, did not affect their machines. Between waiting for new releases and some system modifications, Protools 10 is pretty stable here. I do have this crash on exit bug that noone seems to be able to pin down. It only started happening after a certain release. It never happened from the early days.
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Old 31st March 2014
  #88
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
I just feel like they need to be called out on certain aspects of their customer relations approach.
How about a specific example instead of blanket statement. I own 15 Avid interfaces 3 have gone back for repairs since 2002. (2 of 3 were under warranty)
The out of warranty repair was $250.00 The longest wait was 3 days.
I use to own 4 Apogee interfaces 4 failures over 8 years. 3 of the 4 I owned failed one failed twice. Longest repair was 3 months. 2 of repairs I had to pay a rush repair fee that still took 5 days the other rush repair took a month then they sent me back someone else's interface.
Avid is the ONLY company that gives you credit back on hardware upgrade exchanges as well.
I also own 2 Venue consoles 24/7/365 tech support overnight rush repairs.
I can give lots more specific customer service examples
Avid support & service probably is the among best and most professional in the business.
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Old 31st March 2014
  #89
Gear Head
 
louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
How about a specific example instead of blanket statement. (SNIP)
Avid support & service probably is the among best and most professional in the business.
That last statement is astounding!!! I HAVE broken down specific examples as to why their customer relations approach is terrible, and I don't have the time to do it again. Have you not read the countless complaints from pissed off customers all over the internet?

But upon your request, I will tell you my experience with the repair department since you have mentioned how great they are. I had an Mbox some years ago that had a free spinning preamp mic/line input gain knob..it wasn't functioning, must have snapped internally or something, not sure.. I sent it out for repair through a retail music store (with a full description of an obvious simple problem) and waited literally 3 months to have it returned to me with an inspection sticker indicating that it passed quality control and was repaired !! Before I left the vendor where i picked up the "repaired" unit, I opened the box to try it out. Presto! SAME EXACT ISSUE> FREE SPINNING KNOB.

I do not want to elaborate in detail with my other issues so here's a quick list:

Bug ridden software
Overpriced everything $$$
paid customer support (with the exception of one free ticket per thousands invested $)
Intentional limitations of software functionality (locked features) $$$$
CPTK debacle - Hose job $$$$
Intentionally not supporting Control 24/ pro control on PT 11 $$$
Discontinuing RTAS (while creating artificial panic and need for AAX) $$$
Using paying customers as Beta testers $$$
Taking upwards of 6 months to rectify bugs (ex. GUI freeze issue Pt 10)
Releasing new versions before stabilizing old releases. $$$

I invite you to justify and minimize my list. I do not expect you or any Avid defender to admit any room for improvement. But if you at least respected my points as being valid, that would be a start I guess.
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Old 31st March 2014
  #90
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
Pro tools is cheap compared to it's predecessors $100K for a Studer 24 track plus install.
$1M for a top on the line Synclavier.
I think Avid prices are a deal.
I make 6 figure income off a $40K Pro Tools rig. So I can't comment on a $250.00 Mbox that is broken.
RTAS - All of my plug-ins cost me ZERO to upgrade to AAX except McDSP & Sonnox.

CPTK - we upgraded a couple of those to Pro tools HD 11 for $600.00 again very cheap to to do.

I have no real show stopping issues that prevent me from doing my job.
But I have no doubt that Avid treats high end customers different from MBox users. It's like buyer a Mercedes compared to Ford a high end car owner is going to get a different level of service.
FWIW I thinks Avid's hardware upgrade is excellent compared anyone else in the computer industry. Plus Avid gear second hand value stays high for many years.
I'll give the Pro Control / Control 24 thing thing OTH I believe Avid offers a hardware exchange to C24 Avid | Trade Your Control|24 or Third-Party Mixer for C|24 and Save
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