The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Why so much hate on mainstream? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 11th March 2014
  #61
Lives for gear
 

Now, go away or I shall taunt you a second time...
Old 11th March 2014
  #62
Lives for gear
 
sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Wave View Post
I think it's funny when I mention things like artistic standards to someone desperate to be a star, and he looks back at me like a dog that has been shown a card trick. It just doesn't register. To this guy, if it gets him money and pussy, then consider it done. F#@k art.
'artistic standards' is incredibly vague and meaningless... what are 'artistic standards'? art is completely subjective...

besides, who's to say that people making pop music aren't working toward a standard, only one that they set? if they shouldn't be working toward their own standards of quality, then it's not 'art' either. because making your art conform to someone else's idea of what art should be isn't any more admirable than making your art conform to the market's standards, is it?

i'd argue it's actually a trillion times easier to make 'art' rather than to make a hit song, because there is no actual 'standard' for art. any criticism can be reasoned away with 'well, you just don't get it'. on the other hand, there is a very clearly defined standard for mainstream music: do people like it? it's either pass or fail.

Old 11th March 2014
  #63
Lives for gear
 

Well it's quite obvious some folks greatly respect commercially constructed product as much as or more than pure art for it's own sake, but not everyone has to.
Old 11th March 2014
  #64
Gear Addict
 
7Wave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
'artistic standards' is incredibly vague and meaningless... what are 'artistic standards'? art is completely subjective...

besides, who's to say that people making pop music aren't working toward a standard, only one that they set? if they shouldn't be working toward their own standards of quality, then it's not 'art' either. because making your art conform to someone else's idea of what art should be isn't any more admirable than making your art conform to the market's standards, is it?

i'd argue it's actually a trillion times easier to make 'art' rather than to make a hit song, because there is no actual 'standard' for art. any criticism can be reasoned away with 'well, you just don't get it'. on the other hand, there is a very clearly defined standard for mainstream music: do people like it? it's either pass or fail.


It's not vague at all, but has to do with one's reasons for creating something in the first place, and the originality with which one does it. I spoke of standards, not artistic merit.

I would argue that someone who sits down and writes an empty, derivative pop tune doesn't have an artistic motive so much as an economic one. And the word 'economic' here doesn't simply connote a desire for money.

As for "people making pop music and working toward a standard that they themselves set," you're overlooking the fact that its very designation as "pop" presumes that it aims for standards that *others* set.

Moreover, if "it's actually a trillion times easier to make 'art' rather than to make a hit song," then you'll have to define "easier" here. In my experience it's "easy" to make a song that sounds just like something Katy Perry would do. She turns out hits like my dog turns out ****s, and neither is really hard to do. Pop is image. Meanwhile, I've known talented people who toiled for years and made sacrifices to develop as artists and hone their craft. They did it with integrity and vision. *That* is hard.

This is also the reason why so many of the most valuable paintings in the world were made by artists who struggled financially their entire lives. They didn't just do what everybody else was doing at the time. They saw things differently, stuck to their guns, and changed art. And most of them never lived to see their own impact on the world.

"Hit songs" come in all shapes and sizes. Some hits are really original and show great musicianship. Sometimes it happens that an artist hits upon a sound that resonates with public tastes. But most "hit songs" are done after a fashion.

You'll never meet a guy who writes romance novels and calls it great art. He'll tell you he makes a living.
Old 11th March 2014
  #65
Gear Addict
 
7Wave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
Well it's quite obvious some folks greatly respect commercially constructed product as much as or more than pure art for it's own sake, but not everyone has to.
Yep.
Old 11th March 2014
  #66
Lives for gear
 
sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Wave View Post
Moreover, if "it's actually a trillion times easier to make 'art' rather than to make a hit song," then you'll have to define "easier" here. In my experience it's "easy" to make a song that sounds just like something Katy Perry would do. She turns out hits like my dog turns out ****s, and neither is really hard to do.
well my mistake, i didn't realize i was talking to someone so experienced in writing hits. what have you worked on that i would know of? probably a couple of things if you can just **** them out so easy, no?

or did you just mean that it's easy to sit at a synth or computer and emulate a song that someone else has already made? in which case, yeah, it's easy to make a song that sounds kinda like a katy perry song, it's also easy to make a song that sounds kinda like a bob dylan or a pink floyd or a beatles song... because those artists already showed you how to do it.

what's actually hard is to be those people in the first place... or to live up to and/or top the standards they have set for themselves. if you were working as say katy perry's producer a year or two ago, how would you have come up with 'dark horse'? because that song doesn't sound like any of her previous songs that i know of, nor does it sound like any song on the radio that i know of... so i'm wondering where the part where it's easy and you just **** it out comes from? maybe you can explain the process there, you must know a bunch of divergent ways to ****.

Quote:
Pop is image. Meanwhile, I've known talented people who toiled for years and made sacrifices to develop as artists and hone their craft. They did it with integrity and vision. *That* is hard.
who specifically are they? i'd like to be able to evaluate their work on their own terms just as i am able to evaluate these pop stars on their own terms, because their music is available to me. i don't know of who you're talking about so as of right now i just have to take your word for it that they work harder on their craft than pop artists and producers... and at the moment i can't do that because in my experience it is usually the other way around: the musicians i know who are working the hardest either already have or else are trying to enter the mainstream/pop arena. the 'artists' i know, some of whom are terrifically talented, just kind of do whatever it is they want to do naturally at their own pace. not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not as much of an actual challenge in my opinion. maybe more of an internal struggle.
Old 11th March 2014
  #67
Lives for gear
 
sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
Well it's quite obvious some folks greatly respect commercially constructed product as much as or more than pure art for it's own sake, but not everyone has to.
i totally agree that you don't have to like that type of music at all but a little respect would be nice. it kind of doesn't matter, like i don't think any pop musician or producer really cares too much about what people on a message board like this one say about them. but it also kind of does matter, because this is a board that occasionally attracts actual industry people and there is so much disrespect on this board that it drives away talented people from contributing. i've seen it happen many times.

i know this is the moan zone and you're all moaning. but i will never stop speaking up when i see people posting the same old tired bull**** about pop music, because it happens so constantly on here, and it is SO BORING and unproductive, and also kind of sad, to see such jealousy and disrespect be the standard of communication for so many on here.
Old 11th March 2014
  #68
Lives for gear
 
Benprogfuse's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Well it makes sense why people hate mainstream music. Mainstream music appeals to a broad and common audience. Appealing to a broad and common audience is a sign of respect and tolerance.

A nice portion of society does not have respect and tolerance for different people and ideas. That is why culture is always at war with itself. Caring about others is extremely difficult for people, so applying negative labels and differentiating oneself from the masses is what people do.

Having a problem with mainstream music is a direct reflection of having problems with different cultures, ideas, people, and traditions. Going against the grain becomes a necessity for many people because it stops them from learning and progressing. Learning and progressing would disrupt their world views.
Ignorant assumption
Old 11th March 2014
  #69
Lives for gear
 
boombapdame's Avatar
Missing from this discussion is what defines mainstream: The current thought of the majority. It needs to be considered who and/or what is the majority and the only way to know is demographics and because those shift ever so often it's tricky.
Old 11th March 2014
  #70
Gear Addict
 
ThorSouthshire's Avatar
For me its about mostly one thing. The element of suprise. You don't have to invent the wheel but using the same chord progression, the same type of singer and production/sounds as the previous biggest hit doesn't really seem like passionate from the artists point of view which makes me not able to believe the music. Music is about communicating an emotion and the only emotion i get from most mainstream music is that of a friend who is telling a story they heard in the news as if it was happening to them. And that's a lie. Music needs to represent something geniune for me. I have my tastes, I have my niches, but I don't really buy the "its just a matter of taste" point of view.
Old 11th March 2014
  #71
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
i totally agree that you don't have to like that type of music at all but a little respect would be nice. it kind of doesn't matter, like i don't think any pop musician or producer really cares too much about what people on a message board like this one say about them. but it also kind of does matter, because this is a board that occasionally attracts actual industry people and there is so much disrespect on this board that it drives away talented people from contributing. i've seen it happen many times.

i know this is the moan zone and you're all moaning. but i will never stop speaking up when i see people posting the same old tired bull**** about pop music, because it happens so constantly on here, and it is SO BORING and unproductive, and also kind of sad, to see such jealousy and disrespect be the standard of communication for so many on here.
You are moaning as well.

You are simply unable to tolerate different (more critical) opinions than yours.

So not only are you moaning, you are also being intolerant.

If the songs in question aren't silly fluff made for pure fun / and or commerce, then the respect will naturally flow from listeners to the artist. Your attempt to intervene and demand respect for songs which are often exercises in frivolity, will actually have the opposite effect than what you are attempting to induce.

Let their opinions be, and the songs which are deserving of respect will naturally receive it.

Your self-appointed role as criticism-extinguisher is futile. In fact, when people see how desperately you are trying to demand respect from people who aren't willing to give it on their own, they will stand their ground in an even more obstinate manner.
Old 11th March 2014
  #72
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
You are moaning as well.

You are simply unable to tolerate different (more critical) opinions than yours.

So not only are you moaning, you are also being intolerant.

If the songs in question aren't silly fluff made for pure fun / and or commerce, then the respect will naturally flow from listeners to the artist. Your attempt to intervene and demand respect for songs which are often exercises in frivolity, will actually have the opposite effect than what you are attempting to induce.

Let their opinions be, and the songs which are deserving of respect will naturally receive it.

Your self-appointed role as criticism-extinguisher is futile. In fact, when people see how desperately you are trying to demand respect from people who aren't willing to give it on their own, they will stand their ground in an even more obstinate manner.
I agree with this sentiment. Everybody has a right to hate something.
Old 11th March 2014
  #73
Lives for gear
 

Dislike isn't the same as hate. There are neutral reactions too.

Not everyone has to unconditionally love everything, especially when it comes to the art of music (or movies, or novels).

Apparently, some people hate differing opinions than their own, and work hard to eradicate them.
Old 12th March 2014
  #74
Gear Guru
 
AllAboutTone's Avatar
 

I dislike Mainstream, is does not excite me, artist I record in the studio do way more for me than the stuff on mainstream, its not about the music anymore, so with that said until I hear something fresh I will live in the past.
Old 12th March 2014
  #75
Gear Addict
 
7Wave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benprogfuse View Post
Ignorant assumption
Yep.
Old 12th March 2014
  #76
Gear Addict
 
7Wave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
well my mistake, i didn't realize i was talking to someone so experienced in writing hits. what have you worked on that i would know of? probably a couple of things if you can just **** them out so easy, no?

or did you just mean that it's easy to sit at a synth or computer and emulate a song that someone else has already made?
No, I meant exactly what I said. It would not be difficult to write the kind of pop song that Katy Perry puts out. The production and sound quality of her music is good, but there is absolutely nothing challenging about the songwriting or musicianship in any of her songs. But that's neither here nor there. What the audience is paying for is the Barbie doll image and the same basic themes that never fail to appeal to 15 year old girls.

As Bill Hicks said over 20 years ago -- lamenting the bubblegum pop of that era -- stars like Katy Perry are just lucky there's so much babysitting money being passed around.
Old 12th March 2014
  #77
Gear Addict
 
7Wave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post

Your attempt to intervene and demand respect for songs which are often exercises in frivolity, will actually have the opposite effect than what you are attempting to induce.
+1
Old 12th March 2014
  #78
Lives for gear
 
Benprogfuse's Avatar
Let's just face it.. and people on here can disagree with me all they want, but there is no formula for a hit song. Most of the mainstream songs aren't hits because they are great. They are hits simply because they are popular.. meaning because they are played on the radio and people are told to like them.

-If all of the radio stations agreed to take any average/decent song and play the crap out of it every ten minutes, it would become a hit.

That is how the average consumer is. They will hear the song over and over then feel compelled to purchase or download it because that is what they think everyone else is doing and the popularity of the song just builds on itself.

-This also gets emphasized by how nostalgia comes into play with a hit song. People will be doing things with their lives or having a good time while this song is playing constantly and will from then on associate that song with the feeling or the time that the song was being played. This will happen no matter what the song is or how good it is.
Old 12th March 2014
  #79
Lives for gear
 
sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Wave View Post
No, I meant exactly what I said. It would not be difficult to write the kind of pop song that Katy Perry puts out. The production and sound quality of her music is good, but there is absolutely nothing challenging about the songwriting or musicianship in any of her songs. But that's neither here nor there. What the audience is paying for is the Barbie doll image and the same basic themes that never fail to appeal to 15 year old girls
ok, then again, if there is "absolutely nothing challenging" about writing a hit song i'd like to hear some of the hits that you've written, because i myself am having a hard time writing them. so maybe you can educate me about how it is you do it.
Old 12th March 2014
  #80
Lives for gear
 
frans's Avatar
The writing part doesn't figure much into the equation of what makes a song a hit. I'm not talking about good songwriting, but the mechanics and marketing and gated mass exposure. There is no hard connection between a hit or a good song. Sometimes they are both, but neither a brilliant song nor a ****ty song guarantees a hit. Nothing guarantees hits, remember the CD Paris Hilton did? Despite massive efforts by the machinery it sunk. But many other efforts by the machinery stuck as hits. Which has nothing to do with songwriting. One thing is guaranteed: if you're not "in the elitist club" aka deemed a worthy collaborator of the machine, then you can write what you want and the chances of the best song ever border zero.
Old 12th March 2014
  #81
Lives for gear
 
sleepingbag's Avatar
here's the bottom line for me: if you've never written a hit, what makes you think you understand the process and are qualified to tell anyone else about how it works? you don't, and you aren't. end of story.
Old 12th March 2014
  #82
Lives for gear
 
Benprogfuse's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
ok, then again, if there is "absolutely nothing challenging" about writing a hit song i'd like to hear some of the hits that you've written, because i myself am having a hard time writing them. so maybe you can educate me about how it is you do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
here's the bottom line for me: if you've never written a hit, what makes you think you understand the process and are qualified to tell anyone else about how it works? you don't, and you aren't. end of story.
I find these kind of comments and this kind of thinking irrelevant, because it is not the song that makes the song a hit.

most of the time anyway..
Old 12th March 2014
  #83
Lives for gear
 
sleepingbag's Avatar
well then what is it? maybe.... (as i've been suggesting this whole time.....) there's more to it.....?

so, care to shed a light?

help me out here: why is 'dark horse' a hit? why is 'rolling in the deep' a hit? why is 'wake me up' a hit? why is 'stay the night' a hit? why is 'happy' a hit? if it's not the song itself then there must be something very simple i'm overlooking... i mean, some of y'all clearly know, so maybe you'll tell me: what makes them hits?
Old 12th March 2014
  #84
Lives for gear
 

Oh, the magnificent power of people compelling others to change their opinions and BOW to the hit song, PRAISE the hit song, SALUTE the hit song, LOVE the hit song. Their urge for listener conformity knows no bounds, just as their insistence that others change their opinions to suit theirs knows no bounds.
Old 12th March 2014
  #85
Lives for gear
 
Benprogfuse's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
well then what is it? maybe.... (as i've been suggesting this whole time.....) there's more to it.....?

so, care to shed a light?

help me out here: why is 'dark horse' a hit? why is 'rolling in the deep' a hit? why is 'wake me up' a hit? why is 'stay the night' a hit? why is 'happy' a hit? if it's not the song itself then there must be something very simple i'm overlooking... i mean, some of y'all clearly know, so maybe you'll tell me: what makes them hits?
They are hit songs, quiet simply because the industry made them hits.

There are often exceptions and in my opinion, Adele is one of the exceptions.

Do you really think "Happy" is that great of a song? Really?? It is simple, doesn't push any buttons, is super redundant, somewhat catchy, but not much, and is performed by an already established artist/producer. The label pushed for this song, put a lot of money into an advertising campaign for it. Even had a promotion stunt where they made a 24 hour music video for it and that was advertised all over the place including news stations.

the answer is simply that the labels pushed these songs and the stations are overplaying them.

Can you honestly say that you heard any of the mentioned songs on your own accord and decided that you liked them without them being brought to your attention by another medium telling you that they were supposed to be good/popular/or hits ?
Old 12th March 2014
  #86
Lives for gear
I think an example is important. I dislike a portion of the mainstream because it seems that the promoters of it have no ethics. Please try to convince me that the promoters of Katy Perry, for example, are not aware that their target audience is 11 to 15 year olds. Then in 2008 her song " I Kissed A Girl " goes # 1. Were talking about promoting a sexual agenda to little kids who have no concept of the sexual functions they were biologically equipped with from birth , much less the alternative. Gee , if I didn't know any better, I would think someone was trying their hand at social engineering.

Man….I gotta cut the stupid pills in half from now on.
Old 13th March 2014
  #87
Lives for gear
 
sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
Oh, the magnificent power of people compelling others to change their opinions and BOW to the hit song, PRAISE the hit song, SALUTE the hit song, LOVE the hit song. Their urge for listener conformity knows no bounds, just as their insistence that others change their opinions to suit theirs knows no bounds.
again, i don't give a **** if you personally like any of these songs, they're pop songs, 99% of pop songs are going to be disliked by most people.

BUT when someone on here tells me he can make a pop song easily because they're nothing special musically, to me it is the same thing as someone who's played the guitar for a couple of days telling me that because he can easily play e.g. 'day tripper' that he could have written it. it's frankly dumb if you think about it for even like a second and shows a blatant misunderstanding of the process.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benprogfuse View Post
Do you really think "Happy" is that great of a song? Really??
you want my personal opinion? i like 'happy', it's catchy, i like the way the song sounds, i also particularly like how pharrell kind of sounds like he's winnie the pooh when he's singing, which makes me want to sing along. it's hookier than anything i've ever written and likely anything that anyone on this forum has ever written, it's more direct an expression of a common feeling than anything i've ever written, it's a supremely relatable and danceable song; all of those are achievements in my opinion. it puts me in a good mood when i hear it. i enjoy that.

is it very complex or groundbreaking musically? no. neither are most songs.
is it making some statement about something supposedly important? no. neither are most songs.
are these things supposed to negate everything (or even anything) that i do like about it? it's a song. i respect the craft. i know that it's hard to write a simple song that is good because i've tried many times. some people talk like it's very easy, and to those people as i've said a couple of times: let me hear your work! because it must be really ****ing good -- and none of y'all have links to your stuff
Old 13th March 2014
  #88
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
i respect the craft.
And you want to impose that on any dissenters to your "respect all top 40 hits regardless" routine.

You just keep hammering away...
Old 13th March 2014
  #89
Lives for gear
 
sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldon2975 View Post
And you want to impose that on any dissenters to your "respect all top 40 hits regardless" routine.

You just keep hammering away...

i respect just about anyone making top 40 music much much more than i respect a lot of people on this board, it's true.
Old 13th March 2014
  #90
Lives for gear
 
Benprogfuse's Avatar
Quote:
it's catchy, it's hookier than anything i've ever written and likely anything that anyone on this forum has ever written, it's more direct an expression of a common feeling than anything i've ever written, it's a supremely relatable and danceable; all of those are achievements in my opinion. it puts me in a good mood when i hear it. i enjoy that.

is it very complex or groundbreaking? no. neither are most.
is it making some statement about something supposedly important? no. neither are most.
are these things supposed to negate everything (or even anything) that i do like about it?
The same thing could be said of the Matthew McConaughey movie that everyone's raving about... you know, Ghosts of Girlfriend's Past
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump