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Avid circles the drain
Old 26th February 2014
  #1
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John Moran's Avatar
 

Avid circles the drain

They were delisted by NASDAQ today and trade on the Pink Sheets/Over the Counter. That is not what happens with large healthy companies.

They will likely be an acquisition target but it's going to be bumpy no matter what happens :

Restructuring efforts at Avid maker Pro Tools seem to have accelerated losses, not slowed them.

Financial site The Street reports today on the state of the company’s stock. Most troubling, yesterday Avid received a letter from NASDAQ delisting the company from the stock exchange. As of today, trading of AVID was halted on NASDAQ. (This doesn’t mean you can’t still trade AVID stock; you have to do it via the Over-the-Counter market.)

Avid, Maker of Pro Tools, Now Losing Money Faster and Delisted from NASDAQ - Create Digital Music

Why Avid (AVID) Is Falling Today - TheStreet
Old 26th February 2014
  #2
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cinealta's Avatar
 

I called it perfectly back in 2012, just 6 mos off on their burn rate:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8031510-post31.html
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Old 26th February 2014
  #3
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they should rethink making a big plastic mouse with lights and a pricetag north of $100,000.

a good first step to recovery then turnaround: fire whoever came up with that idea.
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Old 26th February 2014
  #4
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What is equally fascinating to me is that so many audio engineer types understand how all of the stock/industry/market stuff works. I have not been a fan of Avid for a very long time and try to use other DAW formats whenever possible but it seems to me that if a stock gets delisted from the NASDAQ that they were not meeting the minimum requirements. I do day trading every day the market is open and that is how I fund my killer gear purchases and this is pretty much no surprise to me. However, we must remember that other entities listed on the NASDAQ also serve a much, much broader market than Avid does so the fact that they were listed at all to begin with to me is more surprising than the fact that they are getting delisted.
Old 26th February 2014
  #5
Welp. They seemed like a for profit over for the customer type company anyways, even though there customers are where the profits are coming from.

Companies who forget that typically remember it all too late.
Old 26th February 2014
  #6
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Don't worry, Yamaha will probably buy them. It will save plugin manufacturers a lot of R and D when Protools goes VST !
Old 26th February 2014
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by targa2 View Post
Don't worry, Yamaha will probably buy them. It will save plugin manufacturers a lot of R and D when Protools goes VST !
LOL....The sad part is that may actually happen!
Old 26th February 2014
  #8
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Drumsound's Avatar
Time to get lean and mean. I wonder if they will be able to right the ship.
Old 26th February 2014
  #9
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motoxxx View Post
it seems to me that if a stock gets delisted from the NASDAQ that they were not meeting the minimum requirements.
They have failed to report earnings since Q4 2012. It is a big mess at Avid...

Alistair
Old 26th February 2014
  #10
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"Avid’s high-end video editing products and Pro Tools should be cash cows. There is value here that is obscured by terrible management."
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Old 26th February 2014
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by targa2 View Post
Don't worry, Yamaha will probably buy them
or Behringer
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Old 26th February 2014
  #12
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It's possible being more expensive then every other DAW and requiring a matching interface/dongle for so long didn't help matters.
Old 26th February 2014
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RightOnRome View Post
or Behringer
That kindles pictures akin to "the great depression" and the jumping off buildings. LOL

It would be a secure move if Yamaha did buy Protools.

Tascam bought Cakewalk and the support for Sonar X3 is better than ever!

Avid might be just about gone but Protools will live on and end up in good hands.
Old 26th February 2014
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jinksdingo View Post
That kindles pictures akin to "the great depression" and the jumping off buildings. LOL

It would be a secure move if Yamaha did buy Protools.

Tascam bought Cakewalk and the support for Sonar X3 is better than ever!

Avid might be just about gone but Protools will live on and end up in good hands.
Yamaha is tied to Steinberg/Cubase though. And they just bought Line6. It would be funny if Apple bought Avid just like Logic from emagic and make it all mac only. The video software would be a bonus.
Old 26th February 2014
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inverted314 View Post
It would be funny if Apple bought Avid just like Logic from emagic and make it all mac only. The video software would be a bonus.
Or Apple could just buy it to break it. Maybe incorporate some PT IP in Logic for audio editing and Media Composer IP for multi-camera support in Final Cut etc. Scuttle the rest (Euphonix S6 hardware, ICON), sell the converter biz to Apogee etc.
Old 26th February 2014
  #16
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Sad but not very surprising... I thought they were going into the right direction with going native.

Too bad I was planning to buy some Avid HW this year, now it´ll be something else, Apollo16 or such...
Old 26th February 2014
  #17
Avid carries no debt, but operates at a loss. Media Composer & Pro Tools are the defacto industry apps -- there's serious value there. Avid should strip down to the basics, then sell to Apple, everybody wins...
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Old 26th February 2014
  #18
Old 26th February 2014
  #19
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Avid trys to appeal to the 1 man band guys with the affordable mbox, but then jumps to systems that are way overpriced for the small studio's.
All of the 002 and 003 guys that would have upgraded to a 004 are left out of the plan...and look at new interfaces that come bundled with another DAW.
Avid Marketing plan is a big disconnect to most Digi-Design Guys.
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Old 26th February 2014
  #20
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moran View Post
They were delisted by NASDAQ today and trade on the Pink Sheets/Over the Counter. That is not what happens with large healthy companies.

They will likely be an acquisition target but it's going to be bumpy no matter what happens :

Restructuring efforts at Avid maker Pro Tools seem to have accelerated losses, not slowed them.

Financial site The Street reports today on the state of the company’s stock. Most troubling, yesterday Avid received a letter from NASDAQ delisting the company from the stock exchange. As of today, trading of AVID was halted on NASDAQ. (This doesn’t mean you can’t still trade AVID stock; you have to do it via the Over-the-Counter market.)

The really significant issues here are cash flow and earnings – and losing NASDAQ trading will only exacerbate the problem. TheStreet Ratings Team cites issues in this quarter versus same quarter last year including:

Accelerated losses: -$7.55 million to -$17.39 million (year over year)

Negative cash flow: -$1.38 million “net operating cash flow,” a stunning year-over-year 1167.44% drop.

Avid, Maker of Pro Tools, Now Losing Money Faster and Delisted from NASDAQ - Create Digital Music

Why Avid (AVID) Is Falling Today - TheStreet
this is sad news to me... but i felt like pt11 was a fail... i still dont use it to this day and i own both pt 11 and pt 11 hd lol... im basically still using the program made by "digidesign"... i feel like pt 10 is almost a perfect daw minus the fact it only operates at 32bits...

I bought an HD native system last august that im still paying for actually... only because i use pro tools every day and actually make money from it... so it pays for itself... as a consumer, no way in hell would i be able to afford that... they should rethink their business model because it would be a pain to c pro tools change hands once again and support for certain products drop... id be pissed if they dropped hd native or did something drastic...

but yeah they basically havent made money because pt11 took a long time to even become usable, mainly because of key plugin spport... reminds me when apple made FCPx, everyone hated it, people are just now switching over to fcpx... btw im still using FCP7 even though i have x (x sucks)... just cuz its 64 bit dont mean you forget what made your product likeable and so widely used... i think avid forgot the foundation of what pro tools was and thats why it failed as pro tools 11 and we see such a huge loss... sad... just keep me informed
Old 26th February 2014
  #21
We had a chance to go two different ways with our video software. One way was to Avid Media Composer the other was to Adobe Premier Pro. After reading all of this let just say I am glad we decided to go with Adobe Premier Pro... nuff said!
Old 26th February 2014
  #22
When I first got into mastering I purchased the Sound Designer II setup from Digidesign. Less than six weeks later Digi pulled the plug on Sound Designer II and left me with a very large investment (for me) and no future software updates. I called Digi and asked if there was some way I could return my hardware and software and get ProTools since it was only six weeks since I purchased the setup. Digi said there was no "upgrade path to ProTools" and that I was basically stuck with what I had. I vowed never to purchase anything from Digi or Avid again and have stuck to that decision ever since. That was 19 years ago.
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Old 26th February 2014
  #23
mixmixmix
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AVID is finally paying a full price for their greed and nearsightedness. Nobody feels sorry for them. The karma is back....
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Old 26th February 2014
  #24
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I have been off the avid ship for personal work since 09. Treat us like open wallets and we will spend elsewhere I've been noticing the shift for years it seems the only people who didn't see the writing on the wall was a avid. I would love to see apple buy them as a logic pro x guy
Old 26th February 2014
  #25
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I think they lost a lot of people when with PT 10 (or was it 9?) they allowed users to use other interfaces with PT. Once people got a taste of not being forced to use their interfaces and could choose whichever worked best for themselves, having that door slammed in their faces with the next version of PT had to tick a lot of users off.

When you combine that with other DAW platforms such as the Prsonus Studio One Pro (which we have been switching over to instead of PT) allows use of any interface and any configuration you want, a cleaner interface and drop and drag effects etc etc etc....it really makes me wonder why anyone would continue using PT. I know it is an industry standard and just because it was the FIRST and BEST BRANDED does not mean it is the best out there in my opinion.

Also factor in things like the Antelope Orion that gives more 192K I/O than any single PT box for the same money and you can see how Avid has missed really how many of their users prefer having a choice.... <political jab removed by moderator> Forcing your customers to do something they really do not want to do is never a good long term plan. As good as Apple is at simplifying GUI it would be awesome if they did buy Avid but I think that is a bit of a pipe dream.

My two cents.
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Old 26th February 2014
  #26
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I think Pro Tools is a great DAW. I use it because it was the first one I learned, and i'm just quick at it. with that said, it needs someone to make like 5 fixes and it would be near perfect.

maybe this mean someone can finally release an AAX wrapper.

Still not using PT11 (mainly because of UAD dragging their feet)
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Old 26th February 2014
  #27
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I've been enjoying Logic 10 for $199 and the ability to use any interface I want. And with an iPad and Logic Remote I can turn it into a control surface/DAW combo with capability that would cost thousands if it had Avid's name on it.
Old 26th February 2014
  #28
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We could do this all day, Avid made so many mistakes it's impossible to count. I can't think of many other companies that have infuriated so many of their customers and potential customers.

Here are some of my "biggest Avid fails":

1) They completely bungled the lucrative prosumer/hobbyist market. I often get derided on here from more high end users that this isn't important, but there are a dozen titles that all presumably make money and Pro Tools wasn't one of them. Plain and simply, they allowed themselves to be outclassed by virtually all their competition and out priced. For years I've been badmouthing Avid and their pointless parsing of "tracks", which made them look like fools and only showed that they didn't understand modern day DAWs and what customers in the prosumer/hobbyist market expected.

2) They always had a bizarre product lineup. You've all seen it on here, people couldn't just buy the damn product they had to research it. That's always a bad idea, if you can not make the customer think a lot about purchasing your product, that's probably a good thing. The best example I can think of are those stupid Complete Production Toolkits, which always cost more than they were worth, and at some point there was an upgrade path to HD (but without having HD hardware) and at some point there wasn't. This is just a quick example, but Avid always had a more complicated lineup than was necessary.

3) They didn't listen to what the customer wanted. A good example is the offline bounce. No reason not to have it in there, you'd see apologists for it all the time, but regardless, at least a certain amount of people wanted and asked for it, only to be told (not really "told") by Avid that Avid knew what was best, and presumably some of them found it pleasant to buy other software.

4) Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. No one was crying out for a new plug in format. I think people were pretty stunned to think that on top of everything else, Avid would senselessly create a whole new proprietary format for no actual workflow advantage.

5) Incredibly poor customer service, at least some of the time. My first experience with Avid was buying a copy of Pro Tools while enrolled in an audio production degree at a university. Digidesign made clear that there was, and I quote, a "special upgrade path" should I want to move to the full non-academic software. Which one day I did, and I never could find that "special upgrade path" so I called them to see what I was missing. It turns out there was no such thing, no matter what their website and all the other websites that sold their products said, they simply had never gotten around to doing it.

Not only that, they were rude and dismissive on the phone, and the whole thing just reeked of complete incompetence. I hung up and simply moved to another DAW. Over a year later they finally did the right thing and simply moved everyone's license to the full version, but I was past caring.

I think the industry will be better off with Pro Tools in a reduced market position. You just can't let one tool dominate an entire industry for so long, this is the result.
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Old 26th February 2014
  #29
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#3 You do know that TDM was only a real time solution, there was no way to create a offline bounce with the old code? It just was not possible. Wishing that it was didn't make it any more possible. Also The libraries used to build the code didn't exist in 64bit so a 64bit engine in TDM was impossible.

#4 RTAS was made on very old code that it wasn't possible to rebuild into a 64bit format. Should they have chosen to use VST instead, perhaps but that is not the AVID way.

So of your five fails only three have any merit what so ever.
I don't mind you bashing AVID a bit, they clearly deserve it at the moment. I choose to not use PT when ever possible. But using ill informed arguments just make your argumentative position weaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Mal View Post
We could do this all day, Avid made so many mistakes it's impossible to count. I can't think of many other companies that have infuriated so many of their customers and potential customers.

Here are some of my "biggest Avid fails":

1) They completely bungled the lucrative prosumer/hobbyist market. I often get derided on here from more high end users that this isn't important, but there are a dozen titles that all presumably make money and Pro Tools wasn't one of them. Plain and simply, they allowed themselves to be outclassed by virtually all their competition and out priced. For years I've been badmouthing Avid and their pointless parsing of "tracks", which made them look like fools and only showed that they didn't understand modern day DAWs and what customers in the prosumer/hobbyist market expected.

2) They always had a bizarre product lineup. You've all seen it on here, people couldn't just buy the damn product they had to research it. That's always a bad idea, if you can not make the customer think a lot about purchasing your product, that's probably a good thing. The best example I can think of are those stupid Complete Production Toolkits, which always cost more than they were worth, and at some point there was an upgrade path to HD (but without having HD hardware) and at some point there wasn't. This is just a quick example, but Avid always had a more complicated lineup than was necessary.

3) They didn't listen to what the customer wanted. A good example is the offline bounce. No reason not to have it in there, you'd see apologists for it all the time, but regardless, at least a certain amount of people wanted and asked for it, only to be told (not really "told") by Avid that Avid knew what was best, and presumably some of them found it pleasant to buy other software.

4) Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. No one was crying out for a new plug in format. I think people were pretty stunned to think that on top of everything else, Avid would senselessly create a whole new proprietary format for no actual workflow advantage.

5) Incredibly poor customer service, at least some of the time. My first experience with Avid was buying a copy of Pro Tools while enrolled in an audio production degree at a university. Digidesign made clear that there was, and I quote, a "special upgrade path" should I want to move to the full non-academic software. Which one day I did, and I never could find that "special upgrade path" so I called them to see what I was missing. It turns out there was no such thing, no matter what their website and all the other websites that sold their products said, they simply had never gotten around to doing it.

Not only that, they were rude and dismissive on the phone, and the whole thing just reeked of complete incompetence. I hung up and simply moved to another DAW. Over a year later they finally did the right thing and simply moved everyone's license to the full version, but I was past caring.

I think the industry will be better off with Pro Tools in a reduced market position. You just can't let one tool dominate an entire industry for so long, this is the result.
Old 26th February 2014
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG View Post
#3 You do know that TDM was only a real time solution, there was no way to create a offline bounce with the old code? It just was not possible. Wishing that it was didn't make it any more possible. The libraries used to build the code didn't exist in 64bit so a 64bit engine in TDM was impossible.

#4 RTAS was made on very old code that it wasn't possible to rebuild into a 64bit format. Should they have chosen to use VST instead, perhaps but that is not the AVID way.

So of your five fails only three have any merit what so ever.
I don't mind you bashing AVID a bit, they clearly deserve it at the moment. I choose to not use PT when ever possible. But using ill informed arguments just make your argumentative position weaker.
Well, TDM wasn't the only solution, was it? Could not offline bounce have been implemented in the native software, the LE stuff, the M-Powered? Sure it could have. You would find complaining about the native software having something that the TDM software couldn't offer, either way, it would illustrate how Avid found themselves in a bad place where their chosen platform had outlived itself and yet they couldn't (or wouldn't) compete with that on the native side of things.

Frankly, a bad position for a company to be in. Regardless, though, people on the native side (users of all the other software) had access to offline bounce, leaving Avid with the choice of either accommodating what their competitors had to offer, which they could have done and did not, or letting their native software be in a stronger position than the TDM stuff in some way.

Which they never did... as we can see with them parsing tracks and not implementing simple features that their customer base had asked for in order to support what was fast becoming an obsolete and unnecessary technology for a vast majority of people who use DAW software.

So, no, I am not going to say that Pro Tools could not have offered offline bounce earlier due to the technical limitations of TDM, they could have if they wanted to, for at least a lot of their customer base. Instead they did not, hoping that the name "Pro Tools" would cover up the fact that their product was overpriced out outcompeted by their native competition.

Most of what I have said would apply to the old code of RTS also, but your point about it "not being the Avid way" would only hold water if the Avid way was in fact successful, which, you may be noticing, it is not.
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