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Avid circles the drain
Old 3rd March 2014
  #181
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jjdpro's Avatar
 

Thumbs down

That was me.. A long time Nuendo user, decided to jump in and get the HD 9 Native rig/Omni.. ^ weeks later the announce PT 10 HD ..Ok, I called my sweet water rep and Avid to see if I could get a free upgrade? I was told I had to pay 1000 bucks!!! ..I complaind and got a email form Avid's VP and he stated that I could purchase a support plan for $500.00 which would allow me to purchase the upgrade to HD 10 for $500.00..

I was so hurt.. Not that I could not afford the upgrade, but this was "Criminal" in my mind!! Being a long time Steingber Nuendo Emu-Paris user, I never dealt with this type of customer service before.

I still have the HD 9 Native..But, I went back to Nuendo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motoxxx View Post
I think they lost a lot of people when with PT 10 (or was it 9?) they allowed users to use other interfaces with PT. Once people got a taste of not being forced to use their interfaces and could choose whichever worked best for themselves, having that door slammed in their faces with the next version of PT had to tick a lot of users off.

When you combine that with other DAW platforms such as the Prsonus Studio One Pro (which we have been switching over to instead of PT) allows use of any interface and any configuration you want, a cleaner interface and drop and drag effects etc etc etc....it really makes me wonder why anyone would continue using PT. I know it is an industry standard and just because it was the FIRST and BEST BRANDED does not mean it is the best out there in my opinion.

Also factor in things like the Antelope Orion that gives more 192K I/O than any single PT box for the same money and you can see how Avid has missed really how many of their users prefer having a choice.... <political jab removed by moderator> Forcing your customers to do something they really do not want to do is never a good long term plan. As good as Apple is at simplifying GUI it would be awesome if they did buy Avid but I think that is a bit of a pipe dream.

My two cents.
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Old 3rd March 2014
  #182
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jjdpro's Avatar
 

Thank you for telling the truth about Cubase/Niuendo native high track counts. All these folks stating that you need HDX for high trash counts area delusional and have never worked on another major DAW.. And, yes..Nuendo/Cubase are very stable..

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
It is great that you can still use your old setup but for many a TDM system is not good enough. To run my music projects I would need a HDX2 system just for the track count yet I can run them absolutely fine in Cubase running natively on my PC. (As far as track count is concerned, Cubase and all other native DAWs as far as I am aware outperform any HDX system. The same applies to I/O count).

Likewise for anyone working with large sample libraries, 32 bit DAWs are just not good enough.

And as far as performance is concerned, for mixing, where low-latency isn't important, TDM also wasn't good enough any more. Any native DAW running on a powerful enough computer will outperform even a HD6 system (and that includes RTAS plugins as they are so inefficient).

Also in the world of post (and any other fast turnaround market) workflow improvements and anything that speeds up production is essential.

Alistair
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Old 3rd March 2014
  #183
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Originally Posted by jjdpro View Post
Thank you for telling the truth about Cubase/Niuendo native high track counts. All these folks stating that you need HDX for high trash counts area delusional and have never worked on another major DAW.. And, yes..Nuendo/Cubase are very stable..
I don't think anyone is saying you need HDX to work on high track counts. What we are saying is that HDX GUARANTEES you high track counts at near-zero latency. Which you can't do on a native system without the work-around of cue mixers.

No-one is saying you can't run lots of tracks on a native DAW. That's arguing the straw man.

And yes - I've worked on other DAWs.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #184
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
This is what HDX does
No it isn't. Maybe you didn't understand my explanation.

Quote:
leaving 100% of the host CPU for native plug-in processing
This is not true. Shuttling data from RAM to the DSP cards and back (or the other way round) costs CPU. The lower the latency, the more CPU it costs.

Quote:
A fully scalable system based on your I/O-Voice Count-DSP needs.
Not as scalable as any native DAW with unrestricted track and I/O count. Of course if you need the low latency to do live monitoring of large projects, HDX is a good solution.

Alistair
Old 3rd March 2014
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
This is not true. Shuttling data from RAM to the DSP cards and back (or the other way round) costs CPU.

Alistair
You're reaching now. Avid DSP systems massively reduce the hit to the CPU. What he said is effectively true. Even on a 10-year old g5 the CPU is barely touched running a full ProTools session. And there's no comparable native equivalent to the low latency when you monitor through the DSP mixer regardless of the session size or complexity.

Someone here was saying a DSP supporter needs to try a native system... how about we turn the tables and you try a real HD or HDX system? I've spent lots of time using native systems. Considering they are a fraction of the cost, I think it's more likely that a DSP user has used a native system, than the other way around. If I didn't have to worry about live recording, I would be content going native. But I do record live sources, and I don't want to deal with all the workarounds necessary to record live sources on a native system. Protools DSP means my digital mixer is built right into my DAW. If you don't see how badass that is, I'm guessing you haven't needed to do it!
Old 3rd March 2014
  #186
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jjdpro's Avatar
 

Yes.. In a lot of minds, they think Stable High track counts equates to Pro Tools HD only. That's been Avid's/Digi's marketing campaign for nearly a decade.
Native Daws with a mixer is a killer combo and solves many I/O problems within a a project or semi pro studio.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I don't think anyone is saying you need HDX to work on high track counts. What we are saying is that HDX GUARANTEES you high track counts at near-zero latency. Which you can't do on a native system without the work-around of cue mixers.

No-one is saying you can't run lots of tracks on a native DAW. That's arguing the straw man.

And yes - I've worked on other DAWs.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #187
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ddageek's Avatar
 

Anybody who wants Panasonic / Sony / Yamaha or Even Apple to buy AVID is nuts!
These companies have all had a very scitzophranic when it comes to pro Audio/ video!
From a dealer prospective and eventually a consumer point of view it would be pathatic.
Best bet either Red the Camera maker, SSL or private equity steps in and pisses a lot of people off by killing off the Lowend products and realigns It as a pro company.
Yes the Lowend semi pro market generates cash, but the support cost for that market is what kills you. With election finance what it is in the U.S. 2014 will be a good year for broadcast and 2016 will be awesome! That's where AVIDS real money is !
Old 3rd March 2014
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Of course if you need the low latency to do live monitoring of large projects, HDX is a good solution.

Alistair
And a lot of us need just that. I use Metric Halo interfaces in my studio that delivers this and a lot more - for a fraction of the price of a PT system. I know it´s not the same as having a full PT system but it sure works great. Near zero latency and a full mix at the same time is a very natural workflow for me.

Actually, it would be fun if MH bought AVID. (I know MH are way too small for that so it will never happen) But imagine a DAW in the hands of Metric Halo. Super stable and efficient and with the best support in the business.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
No new insight. A bunch of hearsay, unsupported claims, and regurgitated info that we've already been over. Meanwhile, Avid continues as a going concern, and ProTools remains the standard recording tool of the global professional music industry. I predict people hoping for an end to ProTools hegemony will once again be disappointed.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #191
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JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdpro View Post
That was me.. A long time Nuendo user, decided to jump in and get the HD 9 Native rig/Omni.. ^ weeks later the announce PT 10 HD ..Ok, I called my sweet water rep and Avid to see if I could get a free upgrade? I was told I had to pay 1000 bucks!!! ..I complaind and got a email form Avid's VP and he stated that I could purchase a support plan for $500.00 which would allow me to purchase the upgrade to HD 10 for $500.00..

I was so hurt.. Not that I could not afford the upgrade, but this was "Criminal" in my mind!! Being a long time Steingber Nuendo Emu-Paris user, I never dealt with this type of customer service before.

I still have the HD 9 Native..But, I went back to Nuendo.
yeah. They really ****ed the goat on this one. Nobody is saying that the management at avid was smart. They wernt even from the industry. They just wanted to show a fast profit for shareholders so they could get the bonuses and jump ship. Didnt work for them and they ****ed it all up. As soon as I saw the super tan muscle dude holding a hdx card I knew they were ****ed

I mean my personal story was similar. It made no sense to charge people who made large hardware purchases $1000 and give away the same in software to cptk users for $200.

They literally shaped the market AWAY from buying their hardware and the solution was to end the cptk. Its like they have no self awareness.

Doesnt change the fact that protools is good software.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #192
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brockorama's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalle789 View Post
And a lot of us need just that. I use Metric Halo interfaces in my studio that delivers this and a lot more - for a fraction of the price of a PT system. I know it´s not the same as having a full PT system but it sure works great. Near zero latency and a full mix at the same time is a very natural workflow for me.

Actually, it would be fun if MH bought AVID. (I know MH are way too small for that so it will never happen) But imagine a DAW in the hands of Metric Halo. Super stable and efficient and with the best support in the business.

Imo, Cockos and Rme would be a great combo for the future of professional audio.

2 companies with their fingers on the pulse....instead of No pulse.

Everyone and everything is replaceable. But we prop up the old dinasaurs (banks, car makers, Pro Tools) with bailouts and anything possible to reward them for being poor businessmen. And so it goes.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #193
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
You're reaching now. Avid DSP systems massively reduce the hit to the CPU. What he said is effectively true. Even on a 10-year old g5 the CPU is barely touched running a full ProTools session.
If everything is running on the DSP, yes, but look at exactly what I quoted and responded to: "leaving 100% of the host CPU for native plug-in processing"

That is incorrect once you start using native processing. There is a difference between having the whole mix engine running natively and having the mix running on the DSP and data having to be shuttled from the DSP cards to the CPU and back. This shuttling of data has an extra penalty on the CPU that doesn't exist in a purely native DAW.

Quote:
Someone here was saying a DSP supporter needs to try a native system... how about we turn the tables and you try a real HD or HDX system?
How about you don't jump to conclusions. I am working on TDM or HDX systems several times a week.

Alistair
Old 3rd March 2014
  #194
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalle789 View Post
And a lot of us need just that. I use Metric Halo interfaces in my studio that delivers this and a lot more - for a fraction of the price of a PT system. I know it´s not the same as having a full PT system but it sure works great. Near zero latency and a full mix at the same time is a very natural workflow for me.
And this kind of setup is exactly what I propose HD|Native should have been in my post on the previous page.

Alistair
Old 3rd March 2014
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
If everything is running on the DSP, yes, but look at exactly what I quoted and responded to: "leaving 100% of the host CPU for native plug-in processing"

That is incorrect once you start using native processing. There is a difference between having the whole mix engine running natively and having the mix running on the DSP and data having to be shuttled from the DSP cards to the CPU and back. This shuttling of data has an extra penalty on the CPU that doesn't exist in a purely native DAW.
It adds latency because of the round trip, but again, the CPU hit is negligible. That's a mix concern anyway and not pertinent to WHY you want DSP in the first place. Again, if all I needed to do was mix, I would (probably) be content with native.

Quote:
How about you don't jump to conclusions. I am working on TDM or HDX systems several times a week.

Alistair
Good for you. Can't imagine how you don't appreciate the difference though.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #196
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
It made no sense to charge people who made large hardware purchases $1000 and give away the same in software to cptk users for $200.
CPTK was never $200. More like $1000-$1500. Basically you paid the same price for the software whether you did it with or without TDM hardware. (And still do).

Quote:
They literally shaped the market AWAY from buying their hardware and the solution was to end the cptk. Its like they have no self awareness.
I don't see it like that. They didn't shape the market away from buying their hardware. The people that needed the TDM hardware bought the hardware and the people that wanted the software without the hardware could do that too (for a while). Now they push customers away that want to by the PT HD software but have no interest in the hardware. Basically they are blocking potential customers from buying their products. That is never good business IMO.

Also, Avid released PT 9 (that didn't need the hardware for HD) in 2010 I believe but Avid have been making a loss for over a decade. You can't blame something that happened 4 years ago for causing an effect a decade ago. This is clearly not the main cause of their financial problems.

Alistair
Old 3rd March 2014
  #197
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The main cause of their problems is that a good DSP system from Avid lasts 10 years. They are competing against themselves in a saturated market in an industry that has its own problems with growth. Avid doesn't have real competition from other DAWs; their problem is that their DSP systems are so stable and reliable that people aren't compelled to upgrade.
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Old 3rd March 2014
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
CPTK was never $200. More like $1000-$1500. Basically you paid the same price for the software whether you did it with or without TDM hardware. (And still do).



I don't see it like that. They didn't shape the market away from buying their hardware. The people that needed the TDM hardware bought the hardware and the people that wanted the software without the hardware could do that too (for a while). Now they push customers away that want to by the PT HD software but have no interest in the hardware. Basically they are blocking potential customers from buying their products. That is never good business IMO.

Also, Avid released PT 9 (that didn't need the hardware for HD) in 2010 I believe but Avid have been making a loss for over a decade. You can't blame something that happened 4 years ago for causing an effect a decade ago. This is clearly not the main cause of their financial problems.

Alistair
The upgrade from 9 to 10 for those with cptk was the same as for people who didn't have the toolkit.

The upgrade from 9 to 10 for those with actual hardware was $1000.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Imo, Cockos and Rme would be a great combo for the future of professional audio.

2 companies with their fingers on the pulse....instead of No pulse.

Everyone and everything is replaceable. But we prop up the old dinasaurs (banks, car makers, Pro Tools) with bailouts and anything possible to reward them for being poor businessmen. And so it goes.
There really is not much on the market that does what HDX does so I think it is quite irreplaceable at the moment. I would love to see more dsp assisted daw solutions.

I hate latency, hate workarounds, separate cue-mixers and saggy systems so native is and remains useless in my world. HDX is the only option and it's very much on its own in the market. There basically is no alternative to it. So I hope it will be around for a long time.
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Old 4th March 2014
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
The main cause of their problems is that a good DSP system from Avid lasts 10 years. They are competing against themselves in a saturated market in an industry that has its own problems with growth. Avid doesn't have real competition from other DAWs; their problem is that their DSP systems are so stable and reliable that people aren't compelled to upgrade.
Agreed and when many do choose to upgrade they are finding HD Native is sufficient for their needs. So Avid is competing with itself on two fronts.
Old 4th March 2014
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
There really is not much on the market that does what HDX does
Someone would step up if they died I think. Reaper is an 8mb install. PT is 2.x Gb install...they are an obese ol dinosaur imo.

You don't think UA or MH or RME could conjur up a dsp alternative?

I could be wrong. I believe there is nothing else out there because they still exist. If there is a need, someone will fill it. Or not ?
Old 4th March 2014
  #202
Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
Someone would step up if they died I think. Reaper is an 8mb install. PT is 2.x Gb install...they are an obese ol dinosaur imo.
Logic's a pretty big download too - are they a dinosaur as well?

Or do they just include a lot more content?

I'm sure Reaper is great - but it doesn't have the all round aspect/ instruments etc that PT does, let alone Logic. You're not comparing like with like.

Maybe UA or RME would develop a proper dsp assisted tracking setup. They'd need to develop their own DAW though or work closely with an existing manufacturer - the point of an HD rig is that it's integrated.
Old 4th March 2014
  #203
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdpro View Post
Yes.. In a lot of minds, they think Stable High track counts equates to Pro Tools HD only. That's been Avid's/Digi's marketing campaign for nearly a decade.
Native Daws with a mixer is a killer combo and solves many I/O problems within a a project or semi pro studio.
Pro Tools HD was never intended for semi pro or project studios though. That's the point - a high end studio shouldn't have to make basic compromises, which is what i'm trying to say.

I've worked on native rigs (and I'm happy with them for mixing on the whole) - it's tracking and working in a flexible situation with high end, demanding clients that an HD rig really shows its worth.
Old 4th March 2014
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
The main cause of their problems is that a good DSP system from Avid lasts 10 years. They are competing against themselves in a saturated market in an industry that has its own problems with growth. Avid doesn't have real competition from other DAWs; their problem is that their DSP systems are so stable and reliable that people aren't compelled to upgrade.
Quoted for truth.

Look, I'm still running all sessions I need (with high track counts, tracking in full mixes, video postpro, surround, yadayada) on an HD3 system (when did that come out? 12 years?) on a 7 years old MacPro.
I have no urge to upgrade at all.

And that's one of their main problems in the audio world. They are operating in a saturated market that is not really a growth market, with slashed revenues for everybody involved.

As for the Native vs. DSP thing, why is it so hard to see for some people that DSP solutions have certain advantages? No need to get up in arms about it. You don't need it? Good for you!
But to pretend that work-arounds like seperate mixers (TotalMix etc.), analogue front-end for low-latency cue mixing etc. are as good is just not honest!

The very cool thing about DSP systems is that you don't have to think about them! No workarounds etc.
That's one thing that is very important for me, and for others. Some of us are OK with spending a premium for this.
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Old 4th March 2014
  #205
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UnderTow's Avatar
Has anyone ever done any tracking and music mixing on Pyramix, Fairlight or Soundscape? They seem mainly aimed at post-production but maybe they can be used for music too...

Alistair
Old 4th March 2014
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator View Post
And that's one of their main problems in the audio world. They are operating in a saturated market that is not really a growth market, with slashed revenues for everybody involved.
Indeed. They are focusing entirely on a tiny saturated and shrinking part of the audio market while at the same time sabotaging any chance of being successful on the much larger and growing native market. That to me amounts to a refusal to accept reality.

Treat HDX as what it is: A tiny boutique product for a tiny saturated and shrinking market and offer a full and competitive product for the rest of the market.

Quote:
As for the Native vs. DSP thing, why is it so hard to see for some people that DSP solutions have certain advantages?
I can't speak for others but when it comes to myself I think In have made it perfectly clear that I acknowledge the advantages of TDM/HDX for certain situations but none of this will help Avid make money. They need to wake up to the reality of the real world.

Avid can keep doing their best to protect their HDX product and slowly lose more and more market share or they can just accept that the world has changed and that their products (besides HDX) are NOT technologically competitive. Technologically competitive means unlimited track count, unlimited I/O, unlimited PDC, no hardware tie-ins. DSP (actually FPGA) assisted cue mixer a la TotalMix (for those that need that). Etc etc.

Quote:
You don't need it? Good for you!
Unfortunately for Avid most people don't need it and that is bad for them.

Quote:
But to pretend that work-arounds like seperate mixers (TotalMix etc.), analogue front-end for low-latency cue mixing etc. are as good is just not honest!
No one is claiming they are as good for certain tasks (at least I am not) but they are viable solutions for the vast majority of users.

Quote:
The very cool thing about DSP systems is that you don't have to think about them! No workarounds etc.
So you never had to think about using RTAS plugins before TDM plugins? That's the thing. ALL solutions have some kind of limitation. Even HDX have track count and I/O count limitations that do not exist in native DAWs.

Anyway, anything below a HDX2 system is a no go for my music projects and I am not about to pay HDX prices for something that can be had for a fraction of the cost natively. Not to mention the extreme limitations in available AAX plugins compared to the VST world. (There are dozens of VST plugins that have no AAX counter parts). THAT in itself is a no go for the whole of Pro Tools for my music projects.

Why can't the DSP people see these things? Why assume you are always right and everything about TDM/HDX is better? It really isn't. I acknowledge the needs of TDM/HDX users. Can you guys acknowledge the needs of others?

Alistair
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Old 4th March 2014
  #207
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brockorama's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Maybe UA or RME would develop a proper dsp assisted tracking setup. They'd need to develop their own DAW though or work closely with an existing manufacturer - the point of an HD rig is that it's integrated.
I admitted not knowing all the ins and outs already.

All I am saying, is when something dies, something will replace it.

The point is the music or project you are working on. The tools are replaceable and interchangeable. If it requires integrated, and there are dollars to be made...some smart people will make it.
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Old 4th March 2014
  #208
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Avid is not going to die just yet. Talk of circling the drain is OTT by quite a margin. They have a new and competent CEO and he is setting out a new path for Avid without upsetting existing customers.

NOBODY is looking to buy Avid - and it ain't for sale.

That Avid has severe problems, is without question. That it has been loosing money is without question. That the last management gaggle was a right shower of dog-doo-doo is also without question.

I have been sounding alarm over Avid for quite some time, but it is not about to fail unless some hidden factor we know nothing about rears its ugly head. That is of course quite possible.

We just have to wait until those revised books are released.
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Old 4th March 2014
  #209
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Since when is ANY publicly traded company not for sale? Someone comes in with an offer for the shareholders, if accepted the company is sold/merged, despite what PR or some company member might be saying.

Avid just recently changed it's stockholder's rights to prevent hostile takeover and put it's board in a position to profit from a sale.
Old 4th March 2014
  #210
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Right. Like Avid is the one company that isn't for sale in the world, I guess due to their not having made money in a decade.

Anybody associated with that company would sell out in a heartbeat. It's not like it's some labor of love on someone's part... not like there hasn't been tons of turnover at all levels. It'll be sold.
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