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Avid circles the drain
Old 27th February 2014
  #61
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Drumsound's Avatar
Just so long as Creative Labs doesn't buy Avid, I won't complain too much. The way they ****ed up cool companies is deplorable.
Old 27th February 2014
  #62
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Originally Posted by John Moran View Post
So who, from an integrated corporate standpoint, would make the most sense and have the cash and potential symbiosis to acquire Avid?

Apple? could make a lot of sense for a lot of reasons
I think the most sense it would make for Apple is to buy Avid and kill it immediately (And possibly use some of the gained technologies etc). They already have their own video and audio applications. Their core business is their own hardware and progressively more so the consumer market. Their audio and video editing apps are purely there to sell Macs.

On a personal level I would hate Apple to acquire Avid because it would mean no more Pro Tools on Windows. I really do not want a Mac (for many reasons).

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Google? would be a big jump into an area they don't have much of a presence in, yet. It would be a big challenge to Apple and they seem to like doing that.
True but I suspect these markets are just too small for them and/or not cutting edge enough, not enough far reaching social implications and all the other things that seem to make Google tick.

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Sony? lots of vertical integration possibilities but not certain they really would want this given their own finances but it could make sense
Sony could be good for Avid but as you say, they are not doing too well themselves. Also I think Sony often do similar things to Avid where they re-invent the wheel just to have control over all the technology and products they use. I suspect that way of thinking is exactly what Avid don't need right now.

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Yamaha? big music presence in a large multifaceted company already, this would cement a top position along with the other sister audio companies already there. Do they have a picture editing platform in house?
I don't think so. Yamaha could also be good for Avid. If they acquire Avid they will be the market leaders and industry standard in one shot. They would dominate the pro audio world by a large margin.

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Behringer? ummmm.... don't want to think about that, not likely anyway
The name Berhinger tends to give people a bad taste in the mouth but the Music Group also own Midas, Klark Teknik, Turbosound and Bugera. The no non-sense approach of Uli Berhinger could actually work... Maybe...

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Avid? they somehow pull it out of the fire? stranger things have happened
This would probably be the most obvious path but can Avid drastically change their business style? I believe the restriction of only being able to buy PT HD with hardware was made under the new CEO. (A decision I don't agree with and which I find symptomatic of their bad management). I am not convinced the new/current management is making all the right choices...

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Their IP and market presence does have value, of that there is no doubt. Avid could simply be taken out on the open market but it will likely be a more sophisticated acquisition than that. They can't keep burning the cash at the rate they are and survive.
Indeed. Interesting times ahead.

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What companies would see Avid as the most valuable to their own purpose?
Unfortunately in a sense it might be Apple. They can afford to buy Avid and would benefit from killing all the Avid products. That wouldn't be good for the users though...

Alistair
Old 27th February 2014
  #63
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Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I think the most sense it would make for Apple is to buy Avid and kill it immediately (And possibly use some of the gained technologies etc)
Old 27th February 2014
  #64
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Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
It isn't like they haven't done it before. Remember Redmatica less than two years ago? Killed the instant Apple acquired it.

PS: And that was a company that actually made a profit... Killing Avid products would make much more sense. They haven't generated any profits for a decade. Less competition for FCP and Logic means more Mac sales and no chance of the IP ending up in the hands of competent competitors. And the whole business structure of Avid doesn't make any sense for Apple. They are not in the service industry like Avid seem to want to be...

This is a rather normal business practise. Why do you think Facebook paid 19$ Billion for a silly little app like Whatsapp? They could copy the app in less than a month but it really isn't about the app itself. It is about market share and control of the entry portals to Internet.

I keep editing this post, sorry for that, one more thing: Again the same business tactics but from a different angle: For a company like Adobe, putting pressure on Apple by any means is a good thing. They could acquire the Avid portfolio and then stop supporting Macs. They gain market share with the Avid products and put extra pressure on Apple by reducing Mac sales. They also reduce development costs for all their cross-platform products. I don't know how realistic this is (I have no idea what the platform spread of Adobe users is) but again, this kind of thing is not unheard of in the business world.

Alistair
Old 27th February 2014
  #65
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Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
It isn't like they haven't done it before. Remember Redmatica less than two years ago? Killed the instant Apple acquired it.

Alistair
Avid Media Composer isn't Redmatica. MC is used to cut Hollywood blockbusters that cost in the hundreds of millions to make. If Apple were to buy Avid it would make no sense killing it in favor of an app that isn't being used in arguably the most costly productions.
Old 27th February 2014
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
It isn't like they haven't done it before. Remember Redmatica less than two years ago? Killed the instant Apple acquired it.

PS: And that was a company that actually made a profit... Killing Avid products would make much more sense. They haven't generated any profits for a decade. Less competition for FCP and Logic means more Mac sales and no chance of the IP ending up in the hands of competent competitors.

Alistair
Why do you want protools to die? The feature list isn't even comparable with anything apple has (logic, garage band, fcp).

Everyone would migrate to nuendo because that the next best solution. However i would think 50% of the industry would stay on protools 11 until it was impossible to run it anymore (read 20-30 years) provided licenses would be available.

It would be a giant clusterfcuk, impacting businesses all over the world negatively. Maybe its the posts industries fault for allowing a monopoly to form but the ability to have everyone on the same platform is a big advantage.

Basically I don't think this idea is a reality.
Old 27th February 2014
  #67
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Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Avid Media Composer isn't Redmatica. MC is used to cut Hollywood blockbusters that cost in the hundreds of millions to make. If Apple were to buy Avid it would make no sense killing it in favor of an app that isn't being used in arguably the most costly productions.
in the end any of the major players (universal, sony, time warner or any other large media focused company)would want both media composer and protools available for use and would bid on avid at the same time apple does. The dumbing down and non pro pro state of most software should not get near protools.
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Old 27th February 2014
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Less competition for FCP and Logic means more Mac sales and no chance of the IP ending up in the hands of competent competitors.

Alistair
That doesn't make sense. Apple doesn't care that there's competition for FCP and Logic, nor does it scare them at all, in fact quite the opposite. FCP and Logic don't make any serious money ( probably none at all ) for Apple. They are there to make sure there is an abundance of choices on the Mac. Killing Protools would mean LESS choice of software on the mac , wich is the opposite of what Apple wants : MORE choice on the Mac. More software available ( and more "quality" software ) means more hardware sales. More hardware sales means more developers coming to the Mac platform, etc etc..
Apple could give away FCP and Logic for free, but they will never do it. It is not in their interest to kill Mac developpers.

FCP and Logic were acquired by Apple during a period when they were in a very bad situation, and developpers were stopping or slowing down development of audio-visual software on the Mac. They bought FCP from Macromedia and Logic from Emagic to make sure at least two decent production software would still be available on the Mac.
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Old 27th February 2014
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Avid Media Composer isn't Redmatica. MC is used to cut Hollywood blockbusters that cost in the hundreds of millions to make. If Apple were to buy Avid it would make no sense killing it in favor of an app that isn't being used in arguably the most costly productions.
If MC and PT is killed, they will not be used to cut Hollywood blockbusters that cost in the hundreds of millions to make for very much longer so the argument isn't very strong. If Avid were making profits, then it makes sense to keep the products (but of course we wouldn't be having this discussion then). I would say this is an emotional argument that holds no weight in the business world.

Also Apple always think they know best. Remember the disaster that the original release of FCP X was?

Alistair
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Old 27th February 2014
  #70
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Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
We had a chance to go two different ways with our video software. One way was to Avid Media Composer the other was to Adobe Premier Pro. After reading all of this let just say I am glad we decided to go with Adobe Premier Pro... nuff said!
Media Composer is the only way to go for many pros in Hollywood - I typically cut 12-14 synced cameras in a show and don't see Adobe Premiere's media management able to handle those type duties, nor would I want to approach a high budget feature film with Premiere. There's too much on-the-line with your reputation to risk Premiere or even FCPx for that matter…

With regard to codec, whatever a camera manufacturer releases, it's always the most efficient to cut in a native NLE codec like DNXHD or Prores.
Old 27th February 2014
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
Why do you want protools to die?
I don't. On the contrary! That is why Avid's behaviour is so frustrating!

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The feature list isn't even comparable with anything apple has (logic, garage band, fcp).
Yet Apple were convinced FCP X was the right product to release when they released it. That is how much they are in touch with the video editing world.

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Everyone would migrate to nuendo because that the next best solution.
Probably a large section would, yes. The question is, do Apple think that? Also it doesn't have to happen in one step. It could be a phased approach...

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However i would think 50% of the industry would stay on protools 11 until it was impossible to run it anymore (read 20-30 years) provided licenses would be available.
(Or the next OS X update ). (PS: Even if everything still worked, 5 or 6 years from now the applications, running on outdated hardware and unsupported in new OSes, might not be able to compete with alternatives running on modern computers and OSes).

What makes you think that licenses would be available? Would iLok still support the existing licenses? How would license transfers work? Etc...

Also there would be no more plugin development. (Instantly).

And also, many people feel that PT 11 isn't really ready for prime time. (It doesn't matter whether this is true or not. It is about the perception of exisiting and potential customers).

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It would be a giant clusterfcuk, impacting businesses all over the world negatively.
Why do you think Apple would care about that? Again, this is just and emotional view of things and is irrelevant for many business decision makers. (Unfortunately).

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Maybe its the posts industries fault for allowing a monopoly to form but the ability to have everyone on the same platform is a big advantage.
Why do you think Apple would care about that? Apple (or anyone) wouldn't buy Avid to help the film industry. That doesn't figure in their bottom line. Just like they don't care about the impact of killing Redmatica or ditching the Windows platform when they acquired Emagic etc...

I agree with your feelings but they have nothing to do with business. What I describe certainly isn't how I would do business but I am not the CEO of a large multinational media application corporation.

Alistair
Old 27th February 2014
  #72
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I don't think your viewpoint on this has anything to do with business. While apple could spend 200 million on avid and still pick up lunch I jut don't see them doing it. Sony on the other hand would be in a much better position to take advantage of what avid is selling.
Old 27th February 2014
  #73
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The comparisons with Redmatica are absurd. They bought it to incorporate it in EXS 24, not to "kill it". Redmatica is a tiny one-man company that develops a small audio utility for automating sample creation process. They bought it so that they can use the technology in Exs24 without having to write it from scratch. Maybe a hundred people in the world noticed Redmatica's disappearance and were bothered by it..
Old 27th February 2014
  #74
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Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
The comparisons with Redmatica are absurd. They bought it to incorporate it in EXS 24, not to "kill it". Redmatica is a tiny one-man company that develops a small audio utility for automating sample creation process. They bought it so that they can use the technology in Exs24 without having to write it from scratch. Maybe a hundred people in the world noticed Redmatica's disappearance and were bothered by it..
That is besides the point. The point is that Apple do not care about the effect they have by killing a product. This kind of thing is unfortunately normal business practice.

Avid have a lot of IP Apple could be interested in but the products generate a loss and have been doing so for a decade or more. A lot has to do with the huge management structure of Avid and the many world wide offices. It might be possible to make Avid profitable by reducing management overhead etc but maybe it isn't or maybe it would just cost too much to restructure the company to make it worth doing.

Or PT and MC might just end up on the App Store with minimal support and no hardware products at all (SO no more Unity, no more control surfaces etc) I don't think that is what people want either.

Alistair
Old 27th February 2014
  #75
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One consideration with Apple is that they are and have always been focused on the the consumer market rather than the biz/professional folks. Now that may sound strange around these parts but if you know Jobs history and approach that has always been the case and it's embedded in their corporate dna. Beyond that, they make a lot more from phones and tablets than from computers these days. The word "computer" was dropped from their name a long time ago. Would Avid fold in to the high end Mac Pro environ, marketing and support? Could/would they support this in the Apple stores? Not likely, it would be thru the value added resellers if it were to happen. Why would Apple even want the headache of dealing with it is a valid question. I don't see buying it to kill it as valid. I could see them buying the high end market in picture post and audio tho'. That's what's for sale, well, not yet but it's a high probability.

I did miss Adobe in the original list and that's possible but they don't do much in hardware manufacturing afaik. That aspect may give them pause and hardware is a big part of Avid.

I think Yamaha is a real possibility, they don't have much in the picture-post edit world and this would get them there in a hurry. The audio side of Avid would fold in nicely with the rest of their large product line and Yamaha does make some real nice stuff when they want to. They also have hardware manufacturing facilities out the wazoo.

It's going to be interesting to watch what happens. I have no clue and it's all speculation at this point.
Old 27th February 2014
  #76
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Panasonic could be a candidate for buying Avid.. AFAIK it's the only big japanese company that doesn't own some DAW makers ( Yamaha/Steinberg, Roland/Cakewalk, Sony/Vegas )..
Old 27th February 2014
  #77
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
Panasonic could be a candidate for buying Avid.. AFAIK it's the only big japanese company that doesn't own some DAW makers ( Yamaha/Steinberg, Roland/Cakewalk, Sony/Vegas )..
Roland don't own Cakewalk any more but other than that, Panasonic is an interesting idea...

Alistair
Old 27th February 2014
  #78
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some one will probably buy Avid in the next 18 months if they don't "pull their socks up"
Old 27th February 2014
  #79
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Old 27th February 2014
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
Panasonic could be a candidate for buying Avid.. AFAIK it's the only big japanese company that doesn't own some DAW makers ( Yamaha/Steinberg, Roland/Cakewalk, Sony/Vegas )..
I like that, it's a good possibility for someone off the radar to step in and Panasonic was not something that occurred to me at all. They did do Ramsa.

Goldstar, the Korean consumer electronics company could be another one but the fit is kind of odd.

Who are the European likely contenders? Haven't even touched on them except for Behringer. Philips? Siemens? Magix? (wouldn't that shake things up, but probably not big enough)

Hard to figure who would come out of left field on this. I think it's going to be something that integrates to existing infrastructure rather than a whole new ballgame for whatever company it is.
Old 27th February 2014
  #81
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Originally Posted by Bobby Baird View Post
This is karma for forcing every plugin creator to stop what their doing, and commit time and money to a whole new plugin propitiatory format. The audacity of this company. Our company is going to hell in hand bang, but we want you guys to commit resources to rewrite all of these plugins to our liking that can only be used on our program.
+1. "Avid's way or the highway" like one of my old colleagues once said. Many chose the highway. Their narcissistic attitude and the inability to do a simple offline bounce made me drop them like a bad habit.

RTAS - AAX Wrappers: Who Gets To Choose How Your Pro Tools System

It's that pretentious attitude that caused Avid to give themselves the aax. Pun gleefully intended. It's time for them to come off their high horse and COMPETE. Give me and many others a good reason to go back to Pro Tools.
Old 27th February 2014
  #82
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What about blackmagic? That would be another interesting fit.
Old 27th February 2014
  #83
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Don't forget about Adobe!
yes... rent your software.
Old 27th February 2014
  #84
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Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post

Sony could be good for Avid
Didn't they eat up sonic foundry's lineup?
Old 27th February 2014
  #85
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Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
If MC and PT is killed, they will not be used to cut Hollywood blockbusters that cost in the hundreds of millions to make for very much longer so the argument isn't very strong.
That tautology doesn't prove the argument weak. The argument is that there's a strong user base for the software in an industry that blows 100's of millions on a single project. That's very different from cutting some crappy lifestyle show on a budget.

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Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
If Avid were making profits, then it makes sense to keep the products (but of course we wouldn't be having this discussion then). I would say this is an emotional argument that holds no weight in the business world.
Why would Apple buy a company that's operating at a loss with no way of saving it? Just to kill it? Seems like a waste of money to me. Just let it die and that's that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Also Apple always think they know best. Remember the disaster that the original release of FCP X was?

Alistair
Yeah, and perhaps they learned from that. Or perhaps they saw no way out of whatever that software was other than a complete rewrite. Who knows. I know they do as they choose, but my point was simply that comparing it to Redmatica is silly, and that if it chooses to buy Avid I think it'll be maintained at least for the foreseeable future.

And speaking of FCP X, I don't think they'd risk pissing off editors twice; first with FCPX and then by buying and killing MC. I'm willing to bet many would take a close look at Adobe at that point, if only for the reason that it'd likely give better future support and development and less seemingly erratic behavior.

But whatever, neither you nor I know why Avid is operating at a loss, whether it's because of high r&d costs in hardware, on the PT side, or on the video side. If we knew we'd be better equipped to make an educated guess.
Old 27th February 2014
  #86
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Huh. Everyone is talking nicely now! I guess it was my participation that was the problem.
Old 27th February 2014
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
That tautology doesn't prove the argument weak. The argument is that there's a strong user base for the software in an industry that blows 100's of millions on a single project. That's very different from cutting some crappy lifestyle show on a budget.



Why would Apple buy a company that's operating at a loss with no way of saving it? Just to kill it? Seems like a waste of money to me. Just let it die and that's that.



Yeah, and perhaps they learned from that. Or perhaps they saw no way out of whatever that software was other than a complete rewrite. Who knows. I know they do as they choose, but my point was simply that comparing it to Redmatica is silly, and that if it chooses to buy Avid I think it'll be maintained at least for the foreseeable future.

And speaking of FCP X, I don't think they'd risk pissing off editors twice; first with FCPX and then by buying and killing MC. I'm willing to bet many would take a close look at Adobe at that point, if only for the reason that it'd likely give better future support and development and less seemingly erratic behavior.

But whatever, neither you nor I know why Avid is operating at a loss, whether it's because of high r&d costs in hardware, on the PT side, or on the video side. If we knew we'd be better equipped to make an educated guess.
If MC is so great why wouldn't they just turn that into FC11 lol
Old 27th February 2014
  #88
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Originally Posted by Inverted314 View Post
If MC is so great why wouldn't they just turn that into FC11 lol
Same difference.
Old 27th February 2014
  #89
Avid may change hands, but Media Composer & Pro Tools will endure in some form...
Old 27th February 2014
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
That tautology doesn't prove the argument weak.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear but the point is that if Avid die or get killed or whatever, Hollywood will find another solution. Hollywood isn't dependent on Avid despite what some might like to think.

Quote:
The argument is that there's a strong user base for the software in an industry that blows 100's of millions on a single project. That's very different from cutting some crappy lifestyle show on a budget.
That is a tiny niche market within an already small niche market (compared to overall DAW or video editing markets).

I am not sure how accurate the following list is but it seems to be a market with a grand total of 19 films over the whole history of film making. (I'm taking 100's of millions to mean $200 million or more). That in no way amounts to a strong user base. And even if it did, Avid still manages to make a loss year after year for the last decade...

I'm sure there are a orders of magnitude more MC sets out there being used to cut crappy lifestyle or reality shows than Hollywood blockbusters.

It is really bad business to want to be the king of a tiny dieing market (I'm referring more to the high-end studio market here) rather than have a relatively smaller percentage of a healthy growing market. If Avid are using the same kind of flawed logic it is no wonder the company is doing so badly.

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Why would Apple buy a company that's operating at a loss with no way of saving it? Just to kill it? Seems like a waste of money to me. Just let it die and that's that.
I'm sure there are ways to save Avid but it might be more advantageous for Apple to kill it. Especially if they don't want Avid to end up in the hands of competent competitors that could make it work. Again, this is rather common practice in the business world. Are you really not aware of that this is happening all the time? And of course I am not saying this is what will happen but it is not such an outlandish idea as some people make it out to be.

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Yeah, and perhaps they learned from that. Or perhaps they saw no way out of whatever that software was other than a complete rewrite.
They might have learned... then again, they came out with the new Mac Pro. (Which btw is aimed at the FCP market so Apple seem intent on pushing that product further and killing MC is one obvious way to do that).

The rewrite wasn't the problem really. It was the implementation and basically putting out a product that wasn't ready. They could have developed it further before releasing it. It isn't as though Apple are strapped for cash and couldn't afford to develop FCP a few months longer. It was a really bad decision to release as it was when they did and that did much more damage to them than waiting a couple of months would have.

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Who knows. I know they do as they choose, but my point was simply that comparing it to Redmatica is silly, and that if it chooses to buy Avid I think it'll be maintained at least for the foreseeable future.
It isn't silly. It is just an example of Apple killing a product immediately after acquiring the company that makes it. And that was a profit making product not a loss making product! Sorry you can't see that. I'm sure there must be other examples.

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And speaking of FCP X, I don't think they'd risk pissing off editors twice; first with FCPX and then by buying and killing MC. I'm willing to bet many would take a close look at Adobe at that point, if only for the reason that it'd likely give better future support and development and less seemingly erratic behavior.
I have less faith in Apple than you do it seems.

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But whatever, neither you nor I know why Avid is operating at a loss, whether it's because of high r&d costs in hardware, on the PT side, or on the video side. If we knew we'd be better equipped to make an educated guess.
We know they are making a loss in both divisions. We know they have a very heavy management structure. We know they have multiple offices all over the world. We know how they are marketing and selling their products (at least I do on the PT side of things). We know they chose already old technology for their new flagship HDX systems. We know they fired the entire Sibelius development team. (Immediately hired by Steinberg). The list goes on and on. I don't know about you but I have management experience in a multinational corporation and based on that experience everything indicates that Avid are making bad mistake after bad mistake.(Well anyone can conclude that based on their results for the last decade...)

Alistair
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