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Avid circles the drain
Old 24th April 2014
  #481
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
now I've not USED the S6...but I have had a play with it at a trade show, and I went to the demo they had over here.

I don't think you've used it either though. The underlying technology and interface is very much part of the Venue family, and the processing is HDX - essentially the whole system is an HDX card in a bespoke computer, with a converter/mic pre box and a control surface. The only bit that's Eucon is the control surface - and even then, it's just in the way it talks to the brain. There's a whole load of more development that's gone on there. Of course it costs more than the sum of it's parts - that's the nature of a niche product (which everything in the music industry, particularly the high end, is).
I think he was talking purely about the S6 control surface.

Quote:
Well...rigs aren't going to stop working overnight.
I still wonder what kind of mess would happen with iLok if Avid went under...

Alistair
Old 24th April 2014
  #482
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by KFunk View Post
Man for mixing no one needs HDX. No one.
If I were to do my music projects in PT I would need HDX simply for the track count... Luckily I use Cubase for my music projects.

Alistair
Old 24th April 2014
  #483
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by munnin View Post
I think Yamaha is a more viable candidate for purchasing Avid. While Yamaha does own Steinberg it could benefit from many of things found in both all pieces of Avid software as well as many of their pieces of hardware. Take for instance the S6. I think that was poorly executed. Essentially it is the Eucon stuff, which should have made configuring a mix desk less expensive, not more. Top that off with absolutely the worst customer service I've ever dealt with and you have a ship that cannot be righted. This is part of why I've held off on buying Pro-Tools. What happens if I purchase it and they end up just tanking and go bye-bye? No thanks. I'll wait until I need it for school.
Once again - NOBODY is interested in buying Avid. Some companies are keeping a weather-eye on what is happening and would be very interested in buying some of the bits (such as ProTools) but only at fire-sale prices. You don't need a Harvard MBA to work out who these companies are!

Yamaha does not buy companies or launch/buy lines that are not a perfect fit into their long-term commitment to the music business. They would of course love to see PT just go away and leave the field open for Nuendo and Cubase - but that ain't gonna happen and they are fully aware that it won't happen.

If Avid did go belly-up, there is an argument for Yamaha to buy PT, just to stop it getting into the hands of a company that would use it to dominate yet another section of the market - two companies spring to mind here, one of which has been very 'acquisitional' of late! But that is wild speculation and Yamaha is an extremely cautious company that likes to keep its powder dry.

The new CEO of Avid has stopped the sale of turnkey installations at silly, rock-bottom prices with brainless open-ended promises of updates. He has been able to score a few good installations, particularly in Eastern Europe and he is keeping a constant buzz of good PR going, despite all the difficulties.

Yes, the overall product management for PT has been abysmal lately and that has allowed Yamaha and others to make hay whilst Avid was making a total dog's breakfast of confusing cross-grades, upgrades, add-on packages and dongles that didn't work. Staff openly posted on a variety of forums about a lack of leadership and a total lack of understanding of the audio and video markets and the resultant products and woolly and unfocused product ranges only proved what they were saying.

You all can post all you like about Avid circling some drain or other, but until books are filed in the various countries, it's all just speculation and you are all just going to have to wait!
Old 24th April 2014
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
True but you don't need an airline ticket to get to Hawaii either.
But do you really want to stow away in jet wheel well to get there?
But if your needs are not being met with computer DSP your your going to need that extra kick. Some people mix @ 96K have HDX 2 plus a UAD Octo card and CPU maxes out easy.
That's a stupid analogy if I ever saw one…
But sure if you want to go there...

Why would yo choose to fly in a wheel well (you have to mean PT vanilla)?

Why not just choose another airline?
Seats are similar, but not identical.
Colors are different, the emergency exits work properly, the placement of the engines are different, and top speed is higher.
And the good news is that the first class ticket is cheaper.

The coffee is better in the Protools Airline, but they don't know how to make and serve tea.
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Old 24th April 2014
  #485
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I think he was talking purely about the S6 control surface.



I still wonder what kind of mess would happen with iLok if Avid went under...

Alistair
Yes I was confusing it with the s3l. My bad. I've seen but not used the s6.

Ilok? Different company isn't it though? Again, won't stop working overnight...
Old 24th April 2014
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Ilok? Different company isn't it though? Again, won't stop working overnight...
In theory no but what happens if you need to update something? Add new plugins you purchased? (Not necessarily plugins for PT). iLok have demonstrated they can break things pretty badly... Remember, iLok don't seem interested in pleasing their users too much. Their loyalty lies with the DAW/Plugin companies. If Avid are gone... who knows what will happen with our assets if we try to update stuff on our iLoks...

Alistair
Old 24th April 2014
  #487
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drBill's Avatar
It's not good enough that AVID circle the drain, right? Only bankruptcy is acceptable? And then re: PT -- it's not good enough that someone else buys it, right? It has to go into software extinction, right?

Just trying to get on the same page with you sooth-sayers. I'm sure the AVID CEO is on this thread laughing....
Old 24th April 2014
  #488
Lives for gear
 

I don't think anyone has predicted any end to Pro Tools, have they, Bill? I've been out of this thread for a while. I certainly haven't predicted that, I'm not even sure if Avid will end up bankrupt or not, really. It seems very possible.

I've just said they are a terrible company who have ran themselves into the ground with a lot of bad decisions. I remember they also lost you for a while with one of them.
Old 24th April 2014
  #489
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I didn't quote you Larry so you can relax. heh heh And PT didn't lose me, I still use it as do almost all professionals that I know. It's the semi-pro's and home users that seem to be the biggest haters, because the pro's are too busy using it to CARE. Sure, we've all got our gripes, and there's zero doubt that AVID is not exactly the mother theresa of software companies.

All I'm trying to do is find common ground, hence my questions above. The hate is beyond comprehensible to me. Just trying to figure out where it's pointed. I thought it was avid, but it seems now that AVID gone isn't good enough. We must extinguish PT as well. Then.....I suspect PT USERS will be next.

Ethnic cleansing at it's best. viva la revolucion!!
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Old 24th April 2014
  #490
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No, I know you didn't quit using it, but there was some factor about upgrading to HDX that had you riled for a while. I remember because you've always been such a fan of Pro Tools, and why not since it serves you well, and it made an impression on me that they had found a way to even piss you off.
Old 24th April 2014
  #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KFunk View Post
Man for mixing no one needs HDX. No one. The only remote rationale for HDX is tracking live musicians making music.
This is a matter of opinion based on a rash generalisation that you understand everybody's workflow.
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Old 24th April 2014
  #492
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JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
It's not good enough that AVID circle the drain, right? Only bankruptcy is acceptable? And then re: PT -- it's not good enough that someone else buys it, right? It has to go into software extinction, right?

Just trying to get on the same page with you sooth-sayers. I'm sure the AVID CEO is on this thread laughing....
They dont use it therefore they want no one to use it. Its like they are mad they spent mental capital learning cubase or logic and then realized the industry wants them to use protools and are furious about it. Instead of jumping on board and getting work done they complain.
Old 24th April 2014
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
It's the semi-pro's and home users that seem to be the biggest haters, because the pro's are too busy using it to CARE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
They dont use it therefore they want no one to use it. Its like they are mad they spent mental capital learning cubase or logic and then realized the industry wants them to use protools and are furious about it. Instead of jumping on board and getting work done they complain.
I freely admit to dropping in on this thread out of a sense of academic interest, but can I just put a word in here for all of us happy, rational and (relatively!) well-balanced home users of Cubase, Ableton, Studio One, Reason, etc. who basically and in point of fact couldn't give a toss about Avid or ProTools at all? We're not all haters or suffering from ProTools envy you know.

Mind you, speaking as a disinterested observer (in the above sense), some of the information provided and linked in this thread does tend to leave me with the overwhelming impression that Avid's management seems to leave much to be desired. Which, in turn, just makes me rather relieved that, ultimately, whatever happens won't make the slightest bit of difference to me. I do, however, feel sympathy for all those who do rely on PT for their livelihood and who may well be left cleaning up and dealing with any fallout that does occur.
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Old 25th April 2014
  #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianww View Post
I freely admit to dropping in on this thread out of a sense of academic interest, but can I just put a word in here for all of us happy, rational and (relatively!) well-balanced home users of Cubase, Ableton, Studio One, Reason, etc. who basically and in point of fact couldn't give a toss about Avid or ProTools at all? We're not all haters or suffering from ProTools envy you know.

Mind you, speaking as a disinterested observer (in the above sense), some of the information provided and linked in this thread does tend to leave me with the overwhelming impression that Avid's management seems to leave much to be desired. Which, in turn, just makes me rather relieved that, ultimately, whatever happens won't make the slightest bit of difference to me. I do, however, feel sympathy for all those who do rely on PT for their livelihood and who may well be left cleaning up and dealing with any fallout that does occur.
Well thank you for being so rational about this.
Old 25th April 2014
  #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
It's the semi-pro's and home users that seem to be the biggest haters, because the pro's are too busy using it to CARE.
In all fairness Bill, are you a Pro too busy using it to CARE?
Old 25th April 2014
  #496
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky View Post
In all fairness Bill, are you a Pro too busy using it to CARE?
I gotcha. Yeah, probably a little unfair - sorry for that if it offended, but from a casual observance around these parts, that's how it seems here sometimes. Like guys nursing a bad case of sour grapes because they don't have any business, and/or they can't afford PT. I say that's how it COMES OFF looking to me, but as you so correctly pointed out, that may not actually be the case.

Me? I care, but not so much as to put off purchases, hate the company or disparage the future of a product that's held it's own against tremendous competition for a couple decades. The pros I know are not concerned about Avid's fate, whether they are circling the drain or not. They are busy working, and once their system is installed and stabilized, they're off to the races - not speculating on the financials of a company they support like a group of rabid wall street speculators. There seems no shortage of naysayers and haters here though, so go figure. Who knows who they are.... Maybe they ARE actually pro's in disguise....
Old 25th April 2014
  #497
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianww View Post
I freely admit to dropping in on this thread out of a sense of academic interest, but can I just put a word in here for all of us happy, rational and (relatively!) well-balanced home users of Cubase, Ableton, Studio One, Reason, etc. who basically and in point of fact couldn't give a toss about Avid or ProTools at all? We're not all haters or suffering from ProTools envy you know.

Mind you, speaking as a disinterested observer (in the above sense), some of the information provided and linked in this thread does tend to leave me with the overwhelming impression that Avid's management seems to leave much to be desired. Which, in turn, just makes me rather relieved that, ultimately, whatever happens won't make the slightest bit of difference to me. I do, however, feel sympathy for all those who do rely on PT for their livelihood and who may well be left cleaning up and dealing with any fallout that does occur.
correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not one of those virtually rubbing their hands with glee on this thread either! I think you can safely assume Bill's comment wasn't aimed at you.

There's certainly an "us and them" attitude to some non-PT users - you're either with big bad Avid or one of us - but it by no means includes all home users, all non-Avid users, or anything else. Just like not everyone PC-based has to irrationally hate anything Apple (though some do).
Old 25th April 2014
  #498
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I'm sorry, you make absolutely no sense at all. You call using hardware
"A Step Backwards"? That statement alone tells me all I need to know about you..



Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I don't see what excuses I'm making, or what I'm making excuses for? I clearly have experience of what I'm talking about; you have the same I guess. Who are you to tell me my opinion is wrong? I'm not saying what's right for YOU; I'm saying why I'M not prepared to take a backward step. YOU have no leg to stand on to tell me what MY client wants!

I'm not changing what I said at all. I don't believe that a backwards step is acceptable in a professional environment. Personally I DON'T think that the whole hardware solution is as elegant a solution; again if it works for you, fine. I also haven't heard of anyone using it in years in the way you're suggesting; why would they? The TDM solution works fine, and as we both know every high end studio has a TDM rig at the current point in time.

I've worked with enough high end clients from the States in their trips over here in the past 2 years, and in the UK for 10 years prior to that, to know that it's no different there. I've never once had someone look surprised that I don't have hardware AT, or that

I know what my clients want, and what my bosses expect. If I go to the guy who signs off on my studio purchases, and say "look I want to spend this much, but it'll mean we're less flexible than before, and won't be able to do what some clients want" he'll look at me like I'm crazy. It's bad enough that I won't be able to run Waves as DSP plugins anymore. I'll need to make sure I've got decent tuning and gtr amp sim plugs in place before I approach this upgrade!

You may say I'm just making excuses; I say you're looking for arguments, or at least to be contrary. You can't seriously tell me that you think making yourself less flexible or less able to do what your client wants is a good thing in this industry? Aside from the guys who clearly have an axe to grind, there's at least as many guys who agree with me as with you.

None of which is really relevant to Avid's financial situation, other than to possibly put one reason for it across. Shall we get back on topic and ditch the little digs?
Old 25th April 2014
  #499
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdpro View Post
I'm sorry, you make absolutely no sense at all. You call using hardware
"A Step Backwards"? That statement alone tells me all I need to know about you..

Did you read all his posts? He feels that using AutoTune hardware is a step backwards compared to what he can accomplish with AT software, which is fair enough from where I'm sitting, and his complaint is that since he can't have AT software with Pro Tools HDX, that's a big reason why he doesn't want to upgrade.

His A-list clientele would indicate to me that his opinions are pretty valid.
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Old 25th April 2014
  #500
Gear Maniac
 

Why do people come into the moan zone and then complain about people that are posting complaints? Chiming in on a thread called "Avid Circles the Drain" saying pros who are busy shouldn't care about the state of Avid's business isnt very helpful. It also smells a little ironic. If someone is a pro who's too busy to be worried about it, why would they be reading this thread anyway?

Lighten up people. This IS the moan zone. People shouldn't be ridiculed and be accused of malicious intent just for coming on and moaning.

That said, if you're someone who wants Pro Tools itself to actually go away as opposed to having Avid improve or get sold or whatever, you suck
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Old 25th April 2014
  #501
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louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFunk View Post
Why do people come into the moan zone and then complain about people that are posting complaints? Chiming in on a thread called "Avid Circles the Drain" saying pros who are busy shouldn't care about the state of Avid's business isnt very helpful. It also smells a little ironic. If someone is a pro who's too busy to be worried about it, why would they be reading this thread anyway?

Lighten up people. This IS the moan zone. People shouldn't be ridiculed and be accused of malicious intent just for coming on and moaning.

That said, if you're someone who wants Pro Tools itself to actually go away as opposed to having Avid improve or get sold or whatever, you suck
Agreed. As I've said.. Protools has the potential to be great.. Just like the DeLorean did. Avid needs a complete overhaul and a reality check. I have invested way too much time to see pt dissolve.
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Old 25th April 2014
  #502
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Protools has the potential to be great.
Sorry man, but pt is ALREADY great, has been, will continue to be.... If you don't like it, use something else.
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Old 25th April 2014
  #503
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louieshowers's Avatar
 

Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Sorry man, but pt is ALREADY great, has been, will continue to be.... If you don't like it, use something else.
Nope. I will continue to use pro tools and continue to know for certainty its potential for greatness. And will continue to bash Avid until they have changed their ways. Thumbs up.. Thank you, come again.
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Old 25th April 2014
  #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Nope. I will continue to use pro tools and continue to know for certainty its potential for greatness. And will continue to bash Avid until they have changed their ways. Thumbs up.. Thank you, come again.
If you use it and it's not great for you, then why? For me and thousands of others it's ALREADY great. You can't argue that FACT. Try again....maybe better next time.
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Old 25th April 2014
  #505
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
If you use it and it's not great for you, then why? For me and thousands of others it's ALREADY great. You can't argue that FACT. Try again....maybe better next time.
Hmm.. Nope, im good thanks. As soon as the delay compensation and auto save crash bugs get handled, it will have an even greater POTENTIAL for greatness.. Its only been like 8 months since the bugs have been reported... As soon as Avid is removed from PT.. GREATNESS WILL ENSUE. thanks a bunch.
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Old 25th April 2014
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louieshowers View Post
Hmm.. Nope, im good thanks. As soon as the delay compensation and auto save crash bugs get handled, it will have an even greater POTENTIAL for greatness.. Its only been like 8 months since the bugs have been reported... As soon as Avid is removed from PT.. GREATNESS WILL ENSUE. thanks a bunch.
what autosave crash bug are you experiencing? What is missing from protools now stopping it from being "greatness".
Old 25th April 2014
  #507
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louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
what autosave crash bug are you experiencing? What is missing from protools now stopping it from being "greatness".
Answer to question 1: Pro Tools constantly crashing while saving - Avid Pro Audio Community

Link to the delay compensation bug i mentioned...http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t...mpensation+bug

Answer to question 2: A new company taking over that understands customer service and the repercussions of corporate greed.

Here´s the procontrol control 24 thread regarding the deliberate exclusion in pt 11 by avid. longest thread in forum history. http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=338894

Let the minimizing ensue! <--- (not directed at Jstorm)
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Old 26th April 2014
  #508
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well don't let that stop me from minimizing your concerns

Avid has been pretty good about letting us know ahead of time for eol. WAY better then apple. I mean lets get real. Ive been in the boat those people are in (hd expansion chassis) and I will be again (blue dcommand). Sure it will be painful but you sell the thing on and buy what works for the future. Take your losses knowing when buying digital you will lose money (hopefully you made some) on the item. They have been talking about the eol on those products for years.

I do think protools needs to go to a private company. public companies don't work for niche products and the last ceo worked me over the coals too. I get it. But thats 1 ivy league disconnected .01%er who only gave a **** about market growth and his stock options. He's gonna die from too much ribeye and creamed spinach anyway so **** him. We don't need to think about that fool anymore. Lets see what happens in the future.
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Old 26th April 2014
  #509
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
They dont use it therefore they want no one to use it. Its like they are mad they spent mental capital learning cubase or logic and then realized the industry wants them to use protools and are furious about it. Instead of jumping on board and getting work done they complain.
I think the point is that most people who would like to or did jump on board can't afford to spend $10k+ on a TDM/HDX rig. So they're tired of getting the lame crippleware version and being bilked for relatively large upgrade fees that--at best--almost catch their rig up feature-wise with their peers who are using other products. And, despite the relatively high cost of PT they still have to use it knowing AVID will only ever give them features when forced to, after waiting the longest possible time. They're sick of it man.

Another point is that lots of people using TDM/HDX rigs, even though they are pros making a living with the product, are using rigs that were paid for by the studio they work for--i.e., someone else. They don't have any skin in the game in terms of financing the rig so it's easy to make comments like "if you're a real pro you shouldn't sweat [paying for] it". I'm not speaking of anyone in particular on this thread, but that's been my experience with most working engineers I know in both music and post. They use PT TDM/HDX at the studio they work at but don't own a TDM/HDX system themselves. Either way, how many pros are making so much money they don't need to sweat a $15K outlay??


Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I do think protools needs to go to a private company. public companies don't work for niche products and the last ceo worked me over the coals too. I get it. But thats 1 ivy league disconnected .01%er who only gave a **** about market growth and his stock options. He's gonna die from too much ribeye and creamed spinach anyway so **** him. We don't need to think about that fool anymore. Lets see what happens in the future.
Lol! Amen. Good post man

Unfortunately, AVID "Everywhere" doesn't sound like a company that has comfortable-niche-player ambitions. But I really do wish Pro Tools would get split from AVID and acquired by a company that caters to pro audio but which also has a big presence in the semipro/consumer markets. Yamaha does seem like the type of company that would make a good fit to me anyway.


Quote:
Just trying to get on the same page with you sooth-sayers. I'm sure Smilies
the AVID CEO is on this thread laughing….
Yeah, big baller CEO of a company who's stock sucks so bad it got delisted from the stock exchange. It's just so hilarious to have customers who despise your business!

If dude is laughing at this thread he better not let the shareholders catch him doing it.


It like bizarro world up in here. People who criticize Avid's business model are painted as unreasonable, irrational haters. Meanwhile, their stock is in the toilet and has been for years, despite Avid releasing their next-gen products over a year ago. By any reasonable measure, Avid's business is in the sh*tter. But still people will come on here and badmouth people who are trying to give their honest opinion about why that is.
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Old 26th April 2014
  #510
Gear Head
 
louieshowers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFunk View Post
It like bizarro world up in here. People who criticize Avid's business model are painted as unreasonable, irrational haters. Meanwhile, their stock is in the toilet and has been for years, despite Avid releasing their next-gen products over a year ago. By any reasonable measure, Avid's business is in the sh*tter. But still people will come on here and badmouth people who are trying to give their honest opinion about why that is.
Amen
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