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Avid circles the drain
Old 8th April 2014
  #361
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Old 8th April 2014
  #362
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Originally Posted by Brock Mixwell View Post
The coffee is clearly superior with Resolve!
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Old 8th April 2014
  #363
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Originally Posted by Brock Mixwell View Post
The fact that Avid was able to get itself in its current financial situation in spite of an absence of any actual competition in the pro market is what is most disturbing...
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Old 8th April 2014
  #364
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jjdpro's Avatar
 

You don't think when Apple purchased Emagic ( Logic) as developed Final Cut Pro and sold them for peanuts, did not do damage to Avid?

Folks were and are still making movies with Both Apps. Then there's Adobe.

The two (above) companies have systematically ate at both ends of $$ financial pie of this market segment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
The fact that Avid was able to get itself in its current financial situation in spite of an absence of any actual competition in the pro market is what is most disturbing...
Old 9th April 2014
  #365
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kennybro's Avatar
I just spent the last few days at NAB and from their dog n pony, youd think they healthy as Adobe. Guess not. All smoke n mirrors, I guess.
Old 9th April 2014
  #366
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doom64's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdpro View Post
You don't think when Apple purchased Emagic ( Logic) as developed Final Cut Pro and sold them for peanuts, did not do damage to Avid?

Folks were and are still making movies with Both Apps. Then there's Adobe.

The two (above) companies have systematically ate at both ends of $$ financial pie of this market segment.
I don't know where the +1 button is so this will have to do. You are spot on...Avid HAS had competition and that competition outdid them. Avid was doing great until Adobe Premiere, FInal Cut Pro and then Canopus Edius/Stormedit came onto the market. FCP especially taught Avid a lesson about user friendly GUIs and how LISTENING TO CUSTOMERS should be numero uno!

Just like studios who failed to adapt to changing marketplaces didn't survive Avid has only themselves to blame for resting on their laurels. It took them forever to add features that other NLE programs had for years. If not for being the first kid on the block and people being comfortable with its functionality they'd be out of business already.
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Old 9th April 2014
  #367
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Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
The fact that Avid was able to get itself in its current financial situation in spite of an absence of any actual competition in the pro market is what is most disturbing...
Avid has plenty of competition in the semi-pro market. Logic selling at what may well be a loss is big competition (you wouldn't be seeing this were it still cross platform!).

In the pro market, the main competition for hdx is HD Tdm. It's a big upgrade fee, and tracking rooms simply don't "need" hdx at this point. Multi-purpose rooms do benefit.

The slow uptake of aax dsp isn't helping. Eg because I do a lot of pop, I need the option to run Autotune in real time. The oy way to do this with decent latency is using Tdm. Until there's a dsp solution - I can't really justify upgrading my core rig, even though I've bought one new interface and am about to buy another.
Old 9th April 2014
  #368
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gainreduction's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
The slow uptake of aax dsp isn't helping. Eg because I do a lot of pop, I need the option to run Autotune in real time. The oy way to do this with decent latency is using Tdm. Until there's a dsp solution - I can't really justify upgrading my core rig, even though I've bought one new interface and am about to buy another.
I have worked with loads of popartists for as long as auto-tune has existed and never once had the request to run auto-tune live in real time. The rare times I can feel it coming I am usually very clear upfront that "I don't do auto-tune" and that we will work until you sound great for real and won't need it anyway.

You will be fine without it.

And happier.

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Old 9th April 2014
  #369
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
because I do a lot of pop, I need the option to run Autotune in real time. The oy way to do this with decent latency is using Tdm.
If you're just talking about a tracking issue, buy one of THESE. Cheap and effective for tracking with tuning - just split out to this and route to their monitor mix. Well under $200 USD. Works for me.



You can go higher end if you want something with more control. Star Trek inspired interface is a plus. About $900USD

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Old 9th April 2014
  #370
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3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
The slow uptake of aax dsp isn't helping. Eg because I do a lot of pop, I need the option to run Autotune in real time. The oy way to do this with decent latency is using Tdm. Until there's a dsp solution - I can't really justify upgrading my core rig, even though I've bought one new interface and am about to buy another.
Not to get off topic but you can get around this by using the hardware version. I don't use it so I don't really know the difference but many people I know that use it extensively, buy the hardware box and route it into the monitor mix so that they can hear it in real time, but then they fine tune it with the plug in. That's the way I would go with that particular plug in if I needed to use it constantly.
Old 9th April 2014
  #371
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
"I don't do auto-tune" and that we will work until you sound great for real and won't need it anyway.

You will be fine without it.

And happier.

PsychoMonkey doesn't have that option. You must be working with indie and self funded acts. When you are working with signed artists that choice does not usually fall to the engineer, you do what is asked or you stop getting asked to do anything.
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Old 9th April 2014
  #372
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gainreduction's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
PsychoMonkey doesn't have that option. You must be working with indie and self funded acts. When you are working with signed artists that choice does not usually fall to the engineer, you do what is asked or you stop getting asked to do anything.
In my case I'm the producer/writer (aswell as engineer) so I make the calls Obviously, if engineering someone else's production you do what you're asked.

Still, I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would want to monitor through AT while tracking. off topic, I know. Sorry bout that.

Back to Avid.
Old 9th April 2014
  #373
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louieshowers's Avatar
 

YAWN...Back on topic....This company has no ability to show its customers that they are listening and actually have a pulse. They have made decision after decision in their own best interests and were so slow to adapt to today's market.

This corporate garbage language "Avid Everywhere" is just as bad as any bureaucratic operation buzz word (eg...********* Everywhere!! lol). This company reminds me of the IRS!! When will they hire people to really communicate and dig in to the needs of the majority of audio engineers, bedroom engineers and the ability to plug and play without having to have a degree in computer programming to record music with protools on many systems?
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Old 10th April 2014
  #374
Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
If you're just talking about a tracking issue, buy one of THESE. Cheap and effective for tracking with tuning - just split out to this and route to their monitor mix. Well under $200 USD. Works for me.



You can go higher end if you want something with more control. Star Trek inspired interface is a plus. About $900USD

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
Not to get off topic but you can get around this by using the hardware version. I don't use it so I don't really know the difference but many people I know that use it extensively, buy the hardware box and route it into the monitor mix so that they can hear it in real time, but then they fine tune it with the plug in. That's the way I would go with that particular plug in if I needed to use it constantly.
Both good suggestions as workarounds in a situation where I have no other option. Both a backwards step in terms of workflow, not great for clients who expect it to be a simple one click operation, not good for flicking between sessions and so on.

If I upgrade to HDX, I expect it to be a move forward. These workarounds just aren't acceptable in a high end environment.
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Old 10th April 2014
  #375
Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
I have worked with loads of popartists for as long as auto-tune has existed and never once had the request to run auto-tune live in real time. The rare times I can feel it coming I am usually very clear upfront that "I don't do auto-tune" and that we will work until you sound great for real and won't need it anyway.

You will be fine without it.

And happier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
PsychoMonkey doesn't have that option. You must be working with indie and self funded acts. When you are working with signed artists that choice does not usually fall to the engineer, you do what is asked or you stop getting asked to do anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
In my case I'm the producer/writer (aswell as engineer) so I make the calls Obviously, if engineering someone else's production you do what you're asked.

Still, I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would want to monitor through AT while tracking. off topic, I know. Sorry bout that.

Back to Avid.
Bambamboom gets it....it's not a question of my taste (I rarely track that way for my own stuff, and even when I'm in charge of the tracking session of a major pop artist, I wouldn't do it that way unless the artist is used to it).

But simply put, it's asked for by a lot of pop artists and producers. I have all our label's local artists come through my studio, and a lot of the internationally signed (eg household names) in as well. If I can't do what they're used too...it doesn't look good for me or my bosses.
Old 10th April 2014
  #376
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drBill's Avatar
After NAB, Avid may just have pulled the rabbit out of the proverbial hat. Some truly groundbreaking stuff going on there. Vision for the future. Now....if they can pull it off...
Old 10th April 2014
  #377
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doom64's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
If I upgrade to HDX, I expect it to be a move forward. These workarounds just aren't acceptable in a high end environment.
+1! You are a smart man. Only upgrade when there will be a return on investment, not because some magazine tells you to do it. If an old hammer works perfectly fine and you're getting paid to pound nails why buy a new hammer?
Old 10th April 2014
  #378
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
+1! You are a smart man. Only upgrade when there will be a return on investment, not because some magazine tells you to do it. If an old hammer works perfectly fine and you're getting paid to pound nails why buy a new hammer?
Ha! many would argue about the "smart" fact...but pragmatic, certainly.
Old 10th April 2014
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
After NAB, Avid may just have pulled the rabbit out of the proverbial hat. Some truly groundbreaking stuff going on there. Vision for the future. Now....if they can pull it off...
LOL

Steinberg VST connect.......
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Old 10th April 2014
  #380
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
After NAB, Avid may just have pulled the rabbit out of the proverbial hat. Some truly groundbreaking stuff going on there. Vision for the future. Now....if they can pull it off...
It was a decent sales pitch, for sure. Some OK distance-working interconnectivity stuff. My guess; it'll be business as usual in regard to customer awareness going forward.

Although they rolled out some ideas, they still need a corporate culture sea change, and I didn't get that from talking with pitchers. They could have used a more Black Magic Design approach; hands-on displays with reps everywhere fielding questions, instead of their "we are the show; you are the audience" approach.
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Old 10th April 2014
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
It was a decent sales pitch, for sure. Some OK distance-working interconnectivity stuff. My guess; it'll be business as usual in regard to customer awareness going forward.

Although they rolled out some ideas, they still need a corporate culture sea change, and I didn't get that from talking with pitchers. They could have used a more Black Magic Design approach; hands-on displays with reps everywhere fielding questions, instead of their "we are the show; you are the audience" approach.
Luckily for Black magic design - every single seat of media composer already owns a seat of resolve (either the paid version or the free version - it doesn't really matter) so all the operators are fully familiar with the software.
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Old 10th April 2014
  #382
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I understand how many with an optimist's view feel but it's a financial game at this point in time. We know from statements that Avid will have only half it's cash reserves left after it finally produces financials and makes adjustments. So it's cash reserves go from a last stated 48 million down to around 24 million. It's overseas operations have a heavy debt load percentage (no one knows exactly until finacials are stated but I thought I saw 700% somewhere) so between that and Avid's delisting from the NASDEQ I doubt anyone is going to be lending them huge sums of money. We also know more money is going out than into Avid from it's statements showing decreased cash reserves. The big question then becomes what progress can Avid really make with 24 million dollars? I'm sure software changes like encrypted cloud storage, DRM, and subscription of it's video software (rental), are not going to be using up too much of that 24 million however are those changes going to change a negative outflow of reserves to an inflow? My best guess is no. As for some of the other Avid proposals, they simply do not have the money to compete with others with deep pockets offering the same existing services. This looks more about dressing the company up for best sale price to me.

By the way I'm not a "glass is half full" or a "glass is half empty" kind of guy. As an Engineer I think the glass is twice the size that it needs to be.
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Old 10th April 2014
  #383
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kennybro's Avatar
I'm usually an optimist, but their situation looks dismal at this point. Too much negative PR currently floating about, piled on top of too much competition with better ideas, cheaper price points, superior service attitudes and excellent customer confidence levels. Add to that their own financial woes, and it's a deal buster.

I finally abandoned Media Composer a year ago after using various versions since '94, and I used Protools for the past few years before recently switching back to other audio programs. Outdated and maddening functionality drove me right out of that. Can't complain too much on the video side. MC served me quite very well for 20 years.
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Old 14th April 2014
  #384
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jjdpro's Avatar
 

What are you talking about? Backward solution.. ?? This is as standard as tracking with an outboard pre-amp and compressor…

And, you don't need HDX for realtime plugin tracking. Both TDM & HD Native works fine for those operations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Both good suggestions as workarounds in a situation where I have no other option. Both a backwards step in terms of workflow, not great for clients who expect it to be a simple one click operation, not good for flicking between sessions and so on.

If I upgrade to HDX, I expect it to be a move forward. These workarounds just aren't acceptable in a high end environment.
Old 14th April 2014
  #385
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdpro View Post
What are you talking about? Backward solution.. ??
They are a step back in workflow compared to having a plugin directly in the session. That's obvious no?

Quote:
And, you don't need HDX for realtime plugin tracking. Both TDM & HD Native works fine for those operations.
Yes AT on TDM works. Wasn't that the point psycho was making?

PS: Although Native can work very well for many situations, not knowing what psycho's sessions look like, I wouldn't draw any conclusions on whether native would work for him or not.

Alistair
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Old 14th April 2014
  #386
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
They are a step back in workflow compared to having a plugin directly in the session. That's obvious no?



Yes AT on TDM works. Wasn't that the point psycho was making?

PS: Although Native can work very well for many situations, not knowing what psycho's sessions look like, I wouldn't draw any conclusions on whether native would work for him or not.

Alistair
Thanks Alistair - exactly my point. I'm not quite sure how tracking with hardware AT is industry standard either...I don't think I've ever seen the box used!

As for native solutions...I've come to the conclusion over the past year or so that I've not yet used a software monitoring system that I think is good enough for recording vocals - I notice a latency even at low buffer sizes. A software cue mixer is tight enough, but then you lose the option of plugin processing.

With many sessions, the cue mixer option would be fine; but like I said, workflow-wise it's a backwards step. At the moment, I'm not paying a shed load of cash just to then have to make compromises.
Old 15th April 2014
  #387
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jjdpro's Avatar
 

Really? They have been out since 1999

1) TASCAM TA-1VP Vocal Processor with Antares Auto-Tune | Musician's Friend

2) ANTARES AVP1

My main work for the last 15 years has been in Gospel music productions. Working with many of the top US artist with multi platinum projects. They have been and continue to use these hardware devices for tracking for years.

These devices are also used in R & B and Hip Hop/Pop sessions as well. Ala T-Pain ( auto tune vocals) sound…



Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Thanks Alistair - exactly my point. I'm not quite sure how tracking with hardware AT is industry standard either...I don't think I've ever seen the box used!

As for native solutions...I've come to the conclusion over the past year or so that I've not yet used a software monitoring system that I think is good enough for recording vocals - I notice a latency even at low buffer sizes. A software cue mixer is tight enough, but then you lose the option of plugin processing.

With many sessions, the cue mixer option would be fine; but like I said, workflow-wise it's a backwards step. At the moment, I'm not paying a shed load of cash just to then have to make compromises.
Old 15th April 2014
  #388
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ddageek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdpro View Post
Really? They have been out since 1999

1) TASCAM TA-1VP Vocal Processor with Antares Auto-Tune | Musician's Friend

2) ANTARES AVP1

My main work for the last 15 years has been in Gospel music productions. Working with many of the top US artist with multi platinum projects. They have been and continue to use these hardware devices for tracking for years.

These devices are also used in R & B and Hip Hop/Pop sessions as well. Ala T-Pain ( auto tune vocals) sound…
Most top Artist won't stand for outboard auto tune.
Many projects get passed around and the auto tune settings have to be part of the session.

Just because YOUR clients don't demand it, in no way makes it SOP at the top.
Monkey is talking about the projects at the top of the food chain, the ones everybody wants to be a part of, but this mentality trickles down the food chain.
Part of it is this simple you can spend time selling your way or you can spend some money adopt the standard way of working and not only spend less time selling but watch less work go somewhere else.
I know of at least one simple animation show guest star job that walked all over a mid size market till a PTHD studio said " sure that's how we do it everyday!"

Oh a Dirty secret that 99% of the pro native guys forget, any low latency mixing is done on a DSP Chip! Even my old Raydat had a Chip for this!
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Old 15th April 2014
  #389
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jjdpro's Avatar
 

You obviously don't won't in R & B or Hip Hop.? There was period form 2000-2009 where artist ask for it .. Just for the effect. What genre are you speaking of?

I know of at least one simple animation show guest star job that walked all over a mid size market till a PTHD studio said " sure that's how we do it everyday!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
Most top Artist won't stand for outboard auto tune.
Many projects get passed around and the auto tune settings have to be part of the session.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post

Please clarify.

It's simple..We use an SSL mixer with our Pro Tools HD Native.. Zero latency.


Just because YOUR clients don't demand it, in no way makes it SOP at the top.
Monkey is talking about the projects at the top of the food chain, the ones everybody wants to be a part of, but this mentality trickles down the food chain.
Part of it is this simple you can spend time selling your way or you can spend some money adopt the standard way of working and not only spend less time selling but watch less work go somewhere else.
I know of at least one simple animation show guest star job that walked all over a mid size market till a PTHD studio said " sure that's how we do it everyday!"

Oh a Dirty secret that 99% of the pro native guys forget, any low latency mixing is done on a DSP Chip! Even my old Raydat had a Chip for this!
Old 15th April 2014
  #390
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ddageek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdpro View Post
You obviously don't won't in R & B or Hip Hop.? There was period form 2000-2009 where artist ask for it .. Just for the effect. What genre are you speaking of?

[I]I know of at least one simple animation show guest star job that walked all over a mid size market till a PTHD studio said " sure that's how we do it everyday!
I have worked in every genre,
This isn't 2000-2009 ! Even then everybody preferred the plugin on a TDM Rig for control and recall!
I have never heard of anybody say "I would rather the hardware auto tune"
I have never heard " I'll take the Native studio over TDM".

At some point some new plug will come out that is not compatible with HDX or sessions will be dominated by the new Avid plugin format and guys will have to either go HD native or HDX, Just like they did when HD replaced TDM.

Avid isn't a bunch of saints, they should have found away of at least supported the old Blue interfaces via some " legacy port" like they did with the old systems.
They could have supported the old control surfaces.

BUT the stock tanking and somebody who understands what AVID is about buying it !
Because most of the stuff people hate about AVID has done was because of Wall Street !
But people have to remember its a video company first and always will be!
Also the guys who have been around long enough look at it this way, A new HDX rig and 12 core is still less than they paid for their Studer, and costs less and requires less downtime!
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