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Another Full Sail Thread. But it's Good.
Old 13th June 2006
  #1
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Another Full Sail Thread. But it's Good.

EDIT:

The thread was nice while it lasted, but I'm pulling out.
Old 13th June 2006
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

in session recording, just to give you a heads up, they talk alot more about mic placement. TALK ABOUT mic placement. as far as actuall PERFORMING mic placement....you have a lab where you reamp a guitar from tape to an amp. the instructor opens up a case of mics and tells you to grab whatever mic you want and put it wherever you want. he offers little suggestion here and there as to what to try out. then you all go into the control room and listen to each mic to hear how it sounds. you then have a similar lab but its micing up a drum set and recording someone playing. after that there is a mini recording session that involves a single or maybe two people being recorded(for me it was some guy singing and playing acoustic guitar and harmonica). then you have a session with a band. then an additional lab for overdubs to finish the song. and thats all i remember. minus of course the time we miked a stereo so we could learn signal flow. this was in dec. of 2004. i cant imagine the course changing too much from now. i wouldve liked to have more time recording compared to mixing.
Old 13th June 2006
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RobR - PM'd
Old 13th June 2006
  #4
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Gone.
Old 13th June 2006
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Correct me if I'm wrong, but given the pace of these courses, and given how these labs actually function (not just their descriptions); how is anyone expected to
learn from this?

Given your attitude, it's easy to see how you haven't.
Old 13th June 2006
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Personally, I don't agree with the curriculum.
i agree with you. im glad i went, dont regret it at all. its how i got my job. but there shouldve been a much larger emphasis on recording compare to mixing. its gonna be some time till i start mixing something professionally. i coworker went to berklee and i here things like, "had an assignment where i had to record a song and not use anything digital", or "record a song using only sm57s." why didnt i have assignment like these? assignments that force you to think differently. dont get me wrong i am so thankfull i got through this in a year and didnt have to take 4 years out to go to college. but the school needs to refocus its curriculum. ive heard a lot of people bash the teachers but all the ones i had were amazing and i learned so much from them. on a few occasions ive seen the teacher repeatedly tell the back row to shut up.
Old 13th June 2006
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
You feel that you had a positive experience, and I respect that.
My answer to negative comments (about anything) are, most always,
"well, with an attitude like that, no wonder". I am not insulted.
I am happy that someone put a mirror in front of my face. It's a good thing.
Yes, I had a very positive experience there. It's not perfect, but it was what it was.

About the mirror comment, we all need that sometimes. I catch myself being "the guy I hate" all the time. It seems that everytime I knock someone for being a certain way, I end up doing the same **** down the road. Never fails.


Quote:
Personally, I don't agree with the curriculum.
I feel that someone has to put their foot down. I have no problem with
questioning what I have experienced. Seriously, what you get out of learning, is what you put into learning.

But, how can I learn when there is a back row, constantly mumbling throughout a lecture, without be reprimanded, for the entirety of my lectures?
I went through the same $hit. Bunch of "hip hop kiddies" cutting up in the back row. It's really annoying, but you gotta shift your focus. You can either focus on the assholes in the back row, or focus on the class and the lesson being tought. It's your choice, just as much as it is their choice to cut up in the back row.

It's my understanding the entire course went under a complete "renovation" not long after I graduated. I have no idea what they are doing now. When I went we were recording and learning about mics 4-5 months in I believe. Don't remember exactly. I did drink a lot while I was there. I used to come in class wearing the "Randy cologne"....

Quote:
How can I learn much, when everything has to be slowed for students
that, simply, need to go back to high school? Look, I have no prejudices
against someone's qualifications. But, let me be stern, if you're not up to speed, then you need go back and start again at your own pace.
Well that's part of class and you have to learn that not everyone thinks like you do. How would you feel if you were in a surgery class and the doctors were getting pissed at you because you didn't know what the defeition of prophylactic surgery was? Or because you weren't familiar with scrubs...etc. It's not because you are dumb, it's just that you haven't learned yet. Some people take longer to learn things than other people, and everyone learns in a different way. I like to play with things, and physically do the process. I find it much harder to learn how to do something just by reading it in a book. I need to experience it for myself. That's where I got the nickname "buttons". I pressed them....a lot. That's what the school is for...for me to learn, so I figured I'd rather f*k up something there than in a studio later....

Quote:
How can I not question a school that devotes 90% of the recording classes (yes there are other classes to be dealt with) to mixing/DAW situations?
Would you be more likely (once granted the kind of trust) to ask an intern to set up microphones for a session, or ask them to mix a session? The fact that there is a hefty emphasis on Protools is great. Everybody needs a PTO, no?
But, seriously, what is point A in recording engineering? Why no focus
on the most important aspect of capturing sound (aside from what the sound is, of course)?
Well, when I was there it was pretty balanced overall of everything. Mixing on the big boards, recording, overdubbing, DAW editing and Pro-Tools, DP, MIDI, DMX-R100 usage, etc etc. I don't know what they are doing now though...maybe they changed it to reflect the current trends in the industry? A lot of big console studios down these days....

Quote:
And, since the majority of the recording arts curriculum is devoted to mock mixing situations, why no instructions on the utter basics of mixing? Y'know, like,
don't layer a bunch of stereo tracks on top of each other, it will sound like crap.
Anything.
They can't teach you everything at once I guess. I learned a lot when I went there, as I'd never been in a studio before that. I also learned a lot after I left in "real" studios. It all "clicked" about 8 months later. There is a reason for everything, and you might not get it right now, but you'll get it later.


Quote:
Why the abdundance of students that, simply, should have been discouraged from attending? Students who obviously have no interest in this. Why
are they in my class? This comes with any school, I understand. I, mostly, could care less about the classmates. Focus on myself. Unfortunately, this abundance of students is getting in my way.
$$$

Quote:
Most importantly, what about recording? Randy, you paid for "recording" arts.
How much did you learn about "recording"?

A lot, like I said. I learned a lot about gear, recording, etc etc. They don't teach "techniques" for the most part though. You have to learn some things on your own, and some other things outside of the school. They did teach some "tricks" in labs to those of us who seemed to be there for real Engineering, but overall it's not part of the course to teach you how to record every instrument in existence. You still have 2 months left right? Advanced Recording is quite an involved class...you'll learn a lot more there if you pay attention.

Did you make buddies with the lab instructors? I did...and I learned a lot more than I paid for...

Good luck with the rest of your school, and remember, the education never ends.
Old 13th June 2006
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
I don't have a problem with fast paced learning. I do, however, have a problem with not being allowed a chance to retain that information. Or practice what I have learned.
Like I said, it will all sink in later. Your learning a lot more than you think you are.


Quote:
Also, when I initially toured the school, an elaborate (and expensive) dubbing stage was showed off. Turns out, despite what I was told, it is not part of the curriculum.

Did you go because you want to be a re-recording mixer, or because you want to be a music engineer?

If the latter, buck up and stop whining about everything. Go learn what you can, then put it to use when you graduate.

I gotta tell you, if you feel this way about what you've experienced so far, there is no way in hell I'd want you assisting me in my studio, or any studio for that matter. You would become a "problem" really quick.
Old 13th June 2006
  #9
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Mic placement is something you learn with experience. You learn it from watching other engineers while you are assisting. When you graduate you should be comfortable/confident assisting not engineering. Engineering takes years to develope I just think it's alittle nieve to think that when you graduate you can call yourself an engineer. If this is a life career you are planning to make out of all this then don't worry about so much cause you got lots of time to pick these things up. Right now you are learning the 'studio language' so when an engineer asks you to do something you understand him in his language.

Hope that helps. Good luck.
Poly
Old 13th June 2006
  #10
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well, to each his own I guess. I find it intensly hard to believe they wouldn't let you record something there....

The course changed some when I left, but I don't think they would take recording out of the program...that's absurd.

If you have such a problem with your education, why don't you bring it up to Bill Smith? Have you even talked to him about it? He's a very reasonable guy, and want's his students to have an education. He's pretty passionate about that place actually. Trust me, I spent quite a bit of time with him "behind the scenes" when I interned for the audio department. I know what really goes on up there..and they love teaching. It's just that some people don't like learning...
Old 13th June 2006
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Furthermore, I'm in Orlando.
Who and what am I going to record? There's Sam Rivers. That's it, nada else.
I was with you until this. Check your ears. This is not LA, but there are a decent amount of bands here that are worth recording. Especially by a fullsail student trying to learn.

I am around the city each month talking to the producers that are doing it for a living. I hit showcases up and see those same guys there, and they end up tracking these bands. They work with labels also

That statement just sounded prettty snobbish to me. I will assume that I am wrong and misread. Maybe you are just into a certain style of music or something. But if you want to record for a living, at first you better be prepped to track about anyone until you can prove yourself. There are plenty of bands here that would be just fine for this type of scenario.
Old 13th June 2006
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab
I was with you until this. Check your ears. This is not LA, but there are a decent amount of bands here that are worth recording. Especially by a fullsail student trying to learn.

I am around the city each month talking to the producers that are doing it for a living. I hit showcases up and see those same guys there, and they end up tracking these bands. They work with labels also

That statement just sounded prettty snobbish to me. I will assume that I am wrong and misread. Maybe you are just into a certain style of music or something. But if you want to record for a living, at first you better be prepped to track about anyone until you can prove yourself. There are plenty of bands here that would be just fine for this type of scenario.




There are a lot of great bands/artists in Orlando, of all types...
Old 13th June 2006
  #13
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You mean to tell me 10 months in and you haven't recorded a single instrument?

Is that what your saying?
Old 13th June 2006
  #14
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If you haven't done the band recording sessions, then you will.

You'll set up and mic an entire band, record the basic tracks, then do overdubs in another lab. Then you'll get to mix the song on your own in Pro-Tools. You will also have mixing classes on the analog consoles with other music from previous recordings.

After you graduate if you still feel you got ripped off, then you need to talk to someone. You can always "re-take" a class and try to get more experience if you want. I forget the rules, but if you really feel you didn't do well in a class, just fail it and they will let you re-take it. Might wanna see about that though, cuz I don't exactly remember the rules.

I do know for sure that you will get time doing actual recording...not just mic'ing a boom box. The mic'ing a boom box and stuff like that are the baby steps in getting to know signal flow and understanding mic pre's, consoles, etc etc. It's for people like me at the time who had never recorded anything professionally in their life.

Again...take a chill pill.
Old 13th June 2006
  #15
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Yes, I don't remember exactly what month it was, but we did mic a FULL BAND, complete with drums, guitars, and BASS!!. We even did VOCALS!!

Sierously, the lab instructors did guide us on technique, and proper placement. I told you...it will happen. They changed the course after I left so I don't know when it will happen...probably in your next class.

Now stop being a smart ass
dfegad
Old 13th June 2006
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Regardless, at this point, I'm simply nagging, specificly, nagging you.
Thus, I'll discontinue being such a nuisance and will put this to rest for the evening.

You're not nagging me at all, I just think you need a reality check. Your asking for a Ferrari when your handed the parts to a BMW 325i.

heh


Full Sail isn't going to spend 3 months recording various bands with you. You get a few sessions to learn the "jist" of it, then your sent on you way. The course, when I was there, like I said, was well balanced. You get a taste of everything, and enough info from each class to be comfortable interning/assisting in a studio, no matter how big it may be.
Old 13th June 2006
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
I can understand that they can't have us recording bands all day.
But at least one lecture on microphone placement would be nice.

Well, I had one of those way before 10 months....and before I got into the studio to record...
Old 13th June 2006
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR

The art of mic'ing is my achilles' heel. It is the true reason why I went
to Full Sail. After working on various projects, in multiple locations, last spring; I thought to myself, while observing the engineers, "my god, I do not know anything about what microphones to use, and where to put them".


I hope that's not the only reason you went to Full Sail. If it is, I'm going to be laughing for a week....non-stop.

Learning what mics to use on what instruments is something you learn over time, not in a "class" at Full Sail. I do remember some class, whether it was a lab or classroom, that taught the most "common" uses for the "most common" mics. I'm not sure if they still teach that though, as it seems the course has changed a lot.

So you have been working in studios and why did you go to Full Sail?


If I had known about this site long ago it would have been nice....
Old 13th June 2006
  #19
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dude, I think you know deep down that you wasted your money, or better yet your parents money..

I have been comming to gearslutz / prosoundweb / homerecording.com / and tape-op for a couple of years now. I have been recording anyone I can get my hands on for a few years now, including myself.. I have tried differant mics, then sold-em and bought more... It's a process dude... Recording schools weren't even around when all the "greats" learned to record. I think if you need a recording school to teach you things then your just lazy to begin with and lack the adventurous soul that it takes to be an artist... One thing you will find if you study "real" recording engineers like "Alex Newport" "Andy Wallace" and "Steve Albini" is that THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO DO THINGS... There are many roads to take that will get you to "great sounding albums"...

Not to mention that Full Sail charges you toonnnssss of money in tuition.. you could buy a neve console for the price of that school..

I know more about recording and how to get a "decent" sound than anyone of those full sail students... I would go head to head anyday with those silly basterds...

Trust your instincts,, you got ripped off!!
Old 13th June 2006
  #20
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Then you did the right thing.

And I can attest to the "service" that Full Sail provides. I absolutly believe that anyone who leaves the school unhappy either didn't apply themselves enough/take the school sierous enough, or they knew more than they needed and shouldn't have attended the school in the first place. It's one of those "no excuses" type of places. When you leave, you'll have no excuse for a lack of BASIC recording knowledge, and possible more than that if you apply yourself properly.

It's all about you bro...the knowledge is there, you just have to seek it out.

Like I said, if anything, go talk to Bill Smith. Tell him I sent you (Randy Wright). He'll remember me pretty well I'd imagine. I'm sure he will make sure your happy, I'm positive of it. If your not, then your asking too much....
Old 13th June 2006
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nano_606
I know more about recording and how to get a "decent" sound than anyone of those full sail students... I would go head to head anyday with those silly basterds...


Really? I'm down...name the time and place.
Old 13th June 2006
  #22
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wow,, nevermind. You are just the right person for a recording school. There is a sucker born every minute... Good luck with your "education". fuuck
Old 13th June 2006
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyphony
When you graduate you should be comfortable/confident assisting not engineering. Engineering takes years to develope I just think it's alittle nieve to think that when you graduate you can call yourself an engineer.
Although I strongly believe that it is foolish and ignorant to approach a respected studio and expect to be a First Assistant / First Engineer as soon as you graduate from one of these recording schools, I want to set the record straight in regards to your comments above.

I personally know at least 17 Graduates out of 55 (from 2003-2004) from an Audio Engineering Program in Ontario Canada, that I would honestly and truthfully refer to as "Professional Audio Engineers". If you doubt my opinion, I can produce a list of credits, but I personally would rather not as name dropping is not very tasteful IMHO.

I wish to say that there are great schools out there that really care and give a serious education for those who are passionate. Real world experience can't be beat, but there is something to be said about a school that stresses real world training.

If there is one thing I have learned from this world, that if I could pass onto every person who can understand me... it is the following :

"ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING"

Thanks for giving me a few minutes to share my thoughts.

Sincerely,
Scott Harloff
(OIART Graduate 2003-2004)
Old 13th June 2006
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley-OIART
I personally know at least 17 Graduates out of 55 (from 2003-2004) from an Audio Engineering Program in Ontario Canada, that I would honestly and truthfully refer to as "Professional Audio Engineers".
Well of course people learn things. Of course they are going to come out knowing more than they came in, but "Professional Audio Engineers"???? I don't think so, the word "professional" means you "do it for a living". Do you honestly say that it's worth the $50,000 - $70,000 tuition???? Come on you guys are delusional! Now if it was around $10,000 I might not be so hard on them.

RobR ---Did you honestly learn $70,000 worth of recording knowledge?? don't play yourself dude, they haven't even shown you how to mic anything up. When you started this thread you was critical now your defending them??

I can ganrantee if it was YOU paying that price and not YOUR PARENTS you would look at it in a differant way..
Old 13th June 2006
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If you take what you learn and go home and practice it and study it everyday you should be fine. If you go to labs and d1ck around and act like you aren't learning and hold that negative attitude I'd be suprised you learn/retain anything they teach you. I know that I was mic'ing instruments in RMC months before session, and I took the opportunity then to talk to those instructors about mic placement. How much time have you taken outside of class to go and talk to teachers if you feel you aren't learning enough? You need to realize that a big part of the education is the opportunity to talk with your teachers, who happen (for the most part) to be experts in their fields.

I can be somewhat empathetic towards your situation because at first I was feeling that I wasn't learning enough. Then I realized that I came into Full Sail with a pretty strong understanding of gear already (except for the Amek's and Studer's), and that for them to teach me all I was expecting in 12 months would have been impossible. This being because most of my classmates lacked that basic familiarity that I already possessed. Once you look back on it after you graduate you will see how much you actually learned, which is a lot more than you probably think.

For now just try to make the most of it. Stay after class or meet in office hours to talk with your instructors. Give them your projects and get some constructive criticism. A lot of instructors will allow you extra lab time if you ask them, I highly suggest you take advantage of it...

If you still feel you havent learned anything I guess you could schedule a meeting with Gary Jones and ask for your money back. heh
Old 13th June 2006
  #26
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The signal-to-noise ratio is very high in this thread.
Old 13th June 2006
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nano_606
... "Professional Audio Engineers"???? I don't think so, the word "professional" means you "do it for a living".
tutt Since you do not know any of these people, let alone what they are doing with they're lives, I would be careful about judging they're ongoing careers. They don't need your approval, they're work and resume's speak for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nano_606
Do you honestly say that it's worth the $50,000 - $70,000 tuition???? Come on you guys are delusional!
Tuition at the course of my choosing was, if you must know, approximately half that of Fullsail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nano_606
The signal-to-noise ratio is very high in this thread.
I get the feeling you were trying to be snide, but actually you are impling that this thread is full of good discussion with your comment. I'm inclined to agree.


Keep this thread tasteful boys / girls, and please discuss this topic with some civility.

Warm Regards,
Scott
Old 13th June 2006
  #28
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OMG! I just read this entire thread and am now fit to be tied. Yes, I'm now batsh*t crazy!

djui, you must be a zen buddhist to have the patience you've demonstrated in this thread. WOW!

RobR, the most valuable lesson to be learned at recording skool has gone right over the top of your head: the Big Future (and money) is in owning the skoolio, not the studio. You dropped 40 grand and ten months later you have little confidence in yourself in how to mic a speaker. Step back and look closely at this reality.

You could have made 2-4 records with the help of seasoned pros. Made some connections with musicians, engineers, owners of some good sounding spaces, mixers, etc.

The worst part though will be if you're here in six months starting threads like "Help me spend 50 grand on gear!!".
Old 13th June 2006
  #29
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Rob, you stated on your own that you began this thread in the spirit of angst and frusturation. I believe that putting passion and heart into something is essential, but it's very likely you've let your passions walk, nay, RUN all over your intentions.

I agree with you that there are holes in the curriculum. GAPING holes, for that matter. Many times I find myself taking notes on the same thing 5 and 6 times in a row. 3 times in a row I would consider positive reinforcement of an idea, but 5 and 6 times is a bit ridiculous. However, there's no point in uncontrolled ranting.

If I understand your points and goals correctly, you wanted other members of this website to give you questions you could use to stump our instructors. Really, is that fair to the instructors? You said that many of the education staff members are truly sincere and wish to impart their knowledge and experience to us. Why do you wish to abuse them? These people sit in a classroom four to eight hours a day talking to us. Do you want to spend four to eight hours a day talking to a group of fifty to a hundred fairly young people, of which only two-thirds (at most) are actually paying attention and giving you the respect you deserve as their teacher, elder, and most likely better? It's a known fact that teaching is mostly a thankless job which an individual takes because they wish to give knowledge to others.

That last part being made clear, I know it's probably not entirely the case with FS teachers. I have a hard time believing that someone who was dedicated enough to become an engineer would suddenly devote so much of their time to teaching simply because they enjoy it. Keep in mind that just because I, or you, have a hard time believing something doesn't make it untrue. I can vouch for several instructors as being true teachers at heart, and the others I didn't get to know well enough on a personal basis, I'm not ruling them out.

To summarize everything up until this point, what you were intending to do is selfish and abusive. Your intentions held merit, but your methods are wrong on many levels.

Now this thread has become just another game of forum Pong.

"I think that Full Sail has a sub standard curriculum, seeing as its a "recording" program, and all we've recorded is boomboxes next to a power supply"

"I think you're not putting enough effort into it."

"I think you're wrong"

"I think I'm right"

a random "Full Sail sucks!"

ping.
pong.
ping.
pong.

splat.


I put a fair amount of research into Full Sail before I signed on. Had I done a little more, I would have thought longer and harder on it only to come to the same conclusion.

Yes, Rob, we have a fair amount of idiots in our class. We know that. Done deal. Discussion over. Don't forget all the times my patience has run out and I have literally kicked you to get you to shut up. I know you're a smart guy. This has become more and more apparent as time goes on (especially through your posts on other threads, including ones I have started), but you do your fair share of attention grabbing and idiocy. Get off your high horse. Out of respect for you and your reputation on this forum, I have held this sort of thing on the backburner, and I will continue to do so. All I'm going to say is that you should watch what you say and consider your audience carefully. There is at least one person on this forum that knows you personally and beyond your online persona.

Moving on.

The program here could do with more concentration on the process of capturing a sound. We get one month of recording, and even if it is a really good month (which I hear it is), I believe the program should be extended or revised to include more. We've been given the information required to understand how a microphone and gear in general actually works, on a slightly more than basic level. This is good, knowing how something works is important. Showing the mathematics of how a hammer is used and the force required to insert a nail into a piece of wood, and how that force is dispersed through the material, is not enough to send someone out to build a house. Not even a birdhouse. It takes practice to learn how to hammer properly without injuring yourself or bending the nail and ruining your piece of wood. If that piece of wood is high quality, carved cypress or a rare wood, then the consequences are even higher when you screw up. We (who have paid attention) know how a microphone works, and given time could use them semi-properly. We could definitely use a little more hands-on time with things like that.

HOWEVER, this presents a huge logistical problem. Where will Full Sail find decently professional musicians to come in and be recorded for these classes? For free?
You can't. To hire session musicians, even high school students, would be expensive and difficult. It would require a staff of musicians with the time to put aside from their professional work to do these sessions. Good luck finding enough people who are willing to put that time into it for a small price. If Full Sail hired these people, tuition would go through the roof. Right now, we don't pay that much more for an AS degree from FS than we would for the same degree from another school. The difference is that we do it in half the time, and that gives the illusion of being expensive (taken from the perspective of price for product). Imagine if we were also paying for session musicians.

Okay, so what if we had students take turns playing the instruments? Well, that means we assume that the students have a margin of musical skill. Not everyone here can play guitar well, and even fewer can actually get something rhythmic out of a full drum kit. There are some great musicians in the student body, but they need their turn to record and not play.

I think that Full Sail has done the best they can with the assets they have available (as far as recording time goes).


Many of us are frusturated with the same issues. There are problems, and we don't have the benefit of an in-house orchestra or even quartets. I fail to see what good all the bitching does. I wanted to know about Full Sail's reputation outside of Full Sail, and I got that information. Yes, the "Full Sail Graduates" thread also turned into a game of pong, that doesn't make it right. Rob, you are directly trying to abuse our teachers, and this will yield no results. Your teacher could be your best friend and most important asset in changing things at this school if you present him/her with well organized and thought out ideas; attempting to one up, confuse, and baffle them, will only make them your enemy. Pay more attention to the way people interact. There's that old metaphor "you catch more bees with honey than whatever that not-sweet-substance they always use in this metaphor is" (I forgot, anyone remember that one? ).

And Nano, if the signal to noise ratio is high, wouldn't that mean the noise floor is low? I'm glad you think that we're engaged in a worthwhile discussion here, and that those involved are intelligent, well-to-do people.
Old 13th June 2006
  #30
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Haha, I spent so long writing and rewriting my other reply that I hadn't noticed someone had already caught the signal to noise thing. Woops.


Look, guys, looking back on that post, I may have been a bit rude towards Rob. He's got some valid points, even if his attitude isn't the most productive. Rob, I apologize if I offended you in any way, but I felt you needed the call down.


This business relies on the attitudes and dispositions of those within it, and I don't see how we're going to make any progress by bickering. I'm guilty of it, I admit. We're going down a nasty road here if we keep up the personal vendettas.
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