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Full Sail Graduates Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 2nd June 2006
  #61
Gear Head
 
chezero's Avatar
 

Some people have lot's of money, and idiot or not, they can do whatever they want with it.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #62
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestral
I wouldn't pay $40K for a degree, unless it was an MBA (who would make that back easily in less than a year). Anyone that does is an idiot, pure and simple.

I don´t know about your curriculum, but I´m willing to bet my guitar you don´t have the curriculum many of fullsail alumni have.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #63
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Kestral's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chezero
Some people have lot's of money, and idiot or not, they can do whatever they want with it.
That would make the rich idiots.

Quote:
I don´t know about your curriculum, but I´m willing to bet my guitar you don´t have the curriculum many of fullsail alumni have.
Does the average Full Sail graduate have my "curriculum"?

Nominations for national awards for producing
Nominations for international awards for producing
Credits on major label albums

???

Notice I said average. There's the 1% that's done well. The other 99% are flipping burgers or washing my car.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #64
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestral
That would make the rich idiots.


Does the average Full Sail graduate have my "curriculum"?

Nominations for national awards for producing
Nominations for international awards for producing
Credits on major label albums

???

Notice I said average. There's the 1% that's done well. The other 99% are flipping burgers or washing my car.
Well those that have done well got their foot in the door thanks to fullsail and obviously don´t regret what they spent there, and were definetly not stupid. And it´s not 1% i would say closer to 80% get major opportunities after graduating. What they do with them is not fullsail´s problem or fault.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #65
Gear Addict
 

I didn't know much about fullsail. But my attitude and prejudgemental attitude towards it comes from having 100% of the people that graduated from there either completely ruin a job for me, or just completely **** the bed during a session...

Someday I really really hope to meet someone from fullsail that is just completely awesome.. I WANT that to happen. it hasn't yet...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
I personaly know 2 fullsail graduates who won grammys for engineering. Let me know if one of the fullsail pissers in this forum won one. And then we will talk.

I´m a fullsail graduate myself, haven´t won crap but i´m personaly annoyed buy the anti fullsail **** said around here.

Everything is people skills my friend, that is not learned at fullsail or anywhere else but home.

Fullsail prepares you to be an awesome assistant. Thats all. I know you understand that. If you are a good guy, you will do well with or without the education. The ones who piss over education are a bunch of loosers so don´t listen to them : )
Old 2nd June 2006
  #66
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knerd
I didn't know much about fullsail. But my attitude and prejudgemental attitude towards it comes from having 100% of the people that graduated from there either completely ruin a job for me, or just completely **** the bed during a session...

Someday I really really hope to meet someone from fullsail that is just completely awesome.. I WANT that to happen. it hasn't yet...

Ok, look this is what happens.

1.- some of the graduates lie about their abilities just to get the job.

2.- if you are studio owner/manager you should know that a kid that´s right out of school, whichever it may be is not prepared to be given the hot seat right away. I would put the blame on you more than anyone else for your bad experiences.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #67
Gear Addict
 

hah

I can tell you are from fullsail :-)

and dude, I wasn't even talking about a hot seat.. the seat wasn't even close to being hot..



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
Ok, look this is what happens.

1.- some of the graduates lie about their abilities just to get the job.

2.- if you are studio owner/manager you should know that a kid that´s right out of school, whichever it may be is not prepared to be given the hot seat right away. I would put the blame on you more than anyone else for your bad experiences.
Old 2nd June 2006
  #68
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knerd
I can tell you are from fullsail :-)

and dude, I wasn't even talking about a hot seat.. the seat wasn't even close to being hot..
yeah, i´m from fullsail.. and screwed up many times.. or are you mr. perfect now ?? don´t go blaming a school for your not so great events. it´s your responsability for hiring dumbasses , the school has nothing to do with that !!
Old 3rd June 2006
  #69
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djui5's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knerd
I didn't know much about fullsail. But my attitude and prejudgemental attitude towards it comes from having 100% of the people that graduated from there either completely ruin a job for me, or just completely **** the bed during a session...

Sounds to me like you need to change your screening process huh?
Old 5th June 2006
  #70
Gear Addict
 

Full Sail is what it is.

If you got common sense on your shoulders, then relax.
You're what matters, not your education. Your education only matters to you.
Old 5th June 2006
  #71
Gear Addict
 

I'm sometimes befuddled by the fact that no one ever mentions graduates from
the recording program at Columbia College. SAE for that matter, as well.
I can list about fifty-sixty persons I know that have done nothing with their masters, doctorate, bachelor of arts, and etc..

These are days of new. In the least, Full Sail has the capability of demonstrating to the younger generation that buying $2,000 worth of gear at Guitar Center will not make you a recording engineer.

Think about it. Do young people, today, really have the same kind of incentive to intern at a studio and study electronics books? Marketing, is, and, forever will be, a mind-shaping tool. Imagine that the majority of young folks out there are convinced that they can have a career recording music the second they buy a Roland VS 880, or whatever. Is it really so wrong that there is a school out there that forces kids to learn about signal flow and soldering patch bays?

As for the "making beats" crowd. Ignorance is a wonderful thing.
Personally, I've used sequencers and .wav editing for years. I could blow these
cats out of the water with that. But it doesn't make me a recording/mixing/mastering engineer. It also doesn't make me a musician.
Hopefully, they'll figure it out. Otherwise, why nit-pick at kids who are involved
in another world? They're about hustling and making money. If they're not about quality recording engineering, why even bring them up for discussion?

It really comes down to, and always will come down to personality and
functionality in an immediate "job culture". There is a girl in my class who absolutely schooled me when we were working on an SSL console.
Two weeks ago, while working at a live music festival; I sweated my rear end off (while wearing earplugs, mind you), while she (after finally showing up) goofed around, sat around, danced around, and, effectively, did nothing.
Simultaneously, there were about ten other guys/gals who worked as hard as myself. Yet, they had a personality that meshed much better with some of the people we working under. Thus, in this situation, I would not be surprised
if they would be the first to get a call for more work.

I worked as a bartender for a year and a half. That means I should be able to walk in anywhere at get a job as a bartender, right? Wrong. Say I walk into
a sports bar wearing one of my infamous polyster button down shirts.
Do you seriously think I'd get hired?

Furthermore, if you were looking for an intern, and my personal resume fell on your lap; would you be more concerned about my education or my years of managerial experience in the retail, construction and fine dining markets?

I gurantee that the answer to this question will vary from employer to employer.

Regardless, I'm sick and tired of defending this school. There is a heck and whole lot I don't like about this place. Personally, it doesn't matter, because what the school lacks, I get from other resources. What I value more is the fact that I'm surrounded by people that I absolutely do not fit in with. Moving out of my little social circle of the Empty Bottle, Hungry Brain and Myopic Books for a year has given me a cherished lesson that I would have never expected. It also taught me all the fundamentals that I skipped thanks to being part of the modern "digital revolution". Certainly my friend's old 1/4 inch Tascam Portastudio doesn't count
as studio knowledge.

As for the price. Sure, there's a lot you could do with $40,000; but where are you going to get that money without going to school? Seriously, I've been over this in other threads. When you apply for a FAFSA, are you going to write "$40,000 for recording gear" in the school field?

Full Sail is a much smarter financial desicion than, say, the $15,000 worth of credit card debt I spent years paying off thanks to a record buying habit (worthwile) and
all the worthless shoddy modern "recording gear" I had bought as a teenager.

A Full Sail staff member will be the first person to tell these kids not to buy Behringer gear and Rode NT-1's. They'll also be the first to tell you about crappy
ADC/DAC, and Protools LE workarounds. Do you think the guy at Sam Ash gave me this information when I was a scrappy 18 year old (mind you, there was no LE when I was 18)? At least when these students, inevitably, run up their credit cards, they'll be thinking "well, I could get a Phoenix Preamp and a Benchmark Convertor and Big Ben to work around an M-Audio Whatever and build a room in my mother's basement that can serve as well isolated control/dead room for my vanity projects". As opposed to, "I'll buy an HD core card, and I'm all set".

More importantly, they'll egg the students on about internships, and the quality of
following the correct motions. Now, of course, there are those who won't listen to reason. There is a student who, for months, has been talking about building
a studio in a place that already has a bad market. He is talking serious money, and showing a "to buy" list that is smothered in crappy (albeit expensive) gear.
To make matters worse, I literally witnessed him not grasping the difference between printing effects and reverb. Yes, I said he couldn't grasp the difference between the act of recording a wet track and a time based effect. That's like not understanding the difference between driving a car and an apple. So, yes, there are students who won't accept reality. But this is not the school's fault. I witnessed a staff member work out his terminology confusion. I also witnessed many staff members do their best to disuade him from blowing his cash. What else can someone do from there?

They can do a good job of showing students the road. Should Full Sail be expected to carry the student on their back and do the walking for them?
Old 5th June 2006
  #72
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Harley-OIART's Avatar
 

Before Jose BLASTS me for saying this, let me just go on the record as saying that I agree students make what they want of ANY education. A good student will flourish and become great regardless of where they attended class.

but I digress....

Quote:
In the least, Full Sail has the capability of demonstrating to the younger generation that buying $2,000 worth of gear at Guitar Center will not make you a recording engineer.
I know many who can demonstrate that for far less $40K =)

Quote:
A Full Sail staff member will be the first person to tell these kids not to buy Behringer gear and Rode NT-1's.
With proper technique, and advanced understanding of signal flow / how the transients will respond to the ****e electronics (and transducers)... What exactly is the problem with purchasing some behringer gear or other cheap crap to make a recording? Remeber the saying "Sh*t in... Sh*t out". A good performance captured with great engineering and ****ty gear will still sound better in many cases than a ****ty performance with great gear and poor technique (lame signal : noise ratios, far from nominal levels, poor placement) you get the idea.

Quote:
More importantly, they'll egg the students on about internships, and the quality of following the correct motions.
Well although this is important, this is also a great example of how the school is run more like a business than a top-notch education facility. They are passing the buck on to local, and international studios, by making it the responsibility of others to pick up the slack as far as teaching goes. To me they are saying, "here u go... now your fully trained to become an intern somewhere else."

Quote:
Should Full Sail be expected to carry the student on their back and do the walking for them?
For $40,000 I should hope so. heh If they weren't accepting every applicant under the sun, and hiring some truly gifted, great teachers (not nessicarily great mixers/producers... the ability to teach is a gift)... then I wouldn't be posting this =)
Old 5th June 2006
  #73
Gear Addict
 

would you like fries with that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Brown
I have hired many FS grads over the years and grads from ARTI, Valencia (Orlando college) and others. All these schools have a lion's share of numbsculls (is that how you spell it?) but I find that if I carefully screen resumes, call in the few that I think could work, and give my surprise Pro Tools test, I can find the person I'm looking for.

Most of the bad rap comes from the attitude. A lot of them think they know more than you and will let you know it. I can usually fix that by giving them my test. All of a sudden they realize they may know what a dB is, but they don't know how this knowledge (that they have just paid for) relates to a real project's workflow.

Though I have had FS grads that could not boot the computer (really!), there are always a few that will make it. And lets face it: to work full-time in this field is quite the accomplishment.

If you're a FS grad, don't be a jerk. Be humble and soak up every bit of knowledge you can. One day you will own your studio business and be totally responsable for its success or failure. But until then, you have a ton to learn.

P.S. You don't have to go to school to make beats.

David Brown

that's the smartest thing in this thread yet...


I'm not affraid to admit that a lot of fullsail grads have great ears, etc etc etc.. but 100% of the ones I've met are not socially fit for this business. I obviously don't think they all are. just ALL of the ones I've met. I hate to say it, but that's why I changed my policy to "no fullsail grads" ... For some reason, SAE grads are great...

I have found that the lesson ALL students [and people new to the business] learn the slowest is that owning a studio or working in a studio means you are in the service business. you may be working with music and computers.. but all you are doing is taking the producer's orders, smiling, and delivering. the only difference is you don't get tipped. Now, what's weird about that, is when a fullsail student gets my fries at the local fast-food place that they work at, they do a great job there :-)
Old 5th June 2006
  #74
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knerd
I changed my policy to "no fullsail grads" ... For some reason, SAE grads are great...
Please send me a bunch of your policys so i can use them as toilet paper haaaaahaha
Old 5th June 2006
  #75
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TREMORS's Avatar
I dont have much time, so I had to choose between this thread and the one about tracking farts...I will check that one later..

But, here's my dilemma..I've thought about Full Sail, Sae, MTSU..but..

I've taken some classes at the local community college on audio..
I went to a local studio and spend about 2-3months learning stuff with the head engineer...and, I learned more there than probably anywhere.

And, the head engineer always said:

"you just need to actually run sessions to really get work".
That's been almost 100% backed up with what people say here on gearslutz

The dilemma is, I live in a crappy town 40 miles away from any studio, and there is like..NO music happening here. Plus, I've lived here all my life, and just need a change of scenery...

Whats going to suit me better, paying someone like SAE or Full Sail, or just getting out, hitting the pavement, staying after shows of local bands and meeting them...even moving to another town, if need be..really trying to sell myself, so to speak??

I mean, I can turn on a computer =)
I understand signal flow, I know the difference between mic types, understand phasing and mic placement, understand Pro Tools TDM and LE, understand and have used larger consoles like an SSL, have pro tools LE at home, in a rack computer, semi portable..

Heck, I even have used 16 and 24 track analog, understand how tape works, cleaning, blah, blah..
basically, love audio, I know a lot about it, from my own personal reading, experience etc....and, i spent the last 7 years in customer service, I am generally well liked, very patient, encouraging, etc..
and, I dont think I know more than someone else
noone likes those guys, at any job fuuck

So, I am guessing school isnt going to help me, no?
im almost 30, and the idea of dropping that kind of coin on a school that
may teach me what I already know doesnt seem real appealing....though, it could be great from a networking aspect.
Old 5th June 2006
  #76
Gear Maniac
 

This thread is like pushing a rope. It should be moved to Politics thread so people can debate it to no end and get absolutely no where.
Old 5th June 2006
  #77
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS
.
Send your resume to high end facilities in NY, LA, etc.. if can´t get an intership by yourself in say 6 months go to Fullsail.
Old 5th June 2006
  #78
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sender
This thread is like pushing a rope. It should be moved to Politics thread so people can debate it to no end and get absolutely no where.
It´s getting somewhere..

I reached the conclusion that studio owners who had bad experiences with fullsailers are a bunch of sissies.

oh, and like no ssl yet would say... RACIST!!
Old 6th June 2006
  #79
Gear Addict
 

anything I can do to help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
Please send me a bunch of your policys so i can use them as toilet paper haaaaahaha

Sure! which McDonalds shall I address it to? ;-)




You do realize that no one really cares where you graduate from right? at this point I'm sure 1/2 the people still in this convo to get a rise out of full sail students, and the rest are just annoyed :-)
Old 6th June 2006
  #80
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
I have found that the lesson ALL students [and people new to the business] learn the slowest is that owning a studio or working in a studio means you are in the service business. you may be working with music and computers.. but all you are doing is taking the producer's orders, smiling, and delivering. the only difference is you don't get tipped.
Well, obviously you never met me.
Old 6th June 2006
  #81
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Harley-OIART's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Well, obviously you never met me.
I love how everyone is convinced they are so much different and better than the next guy =)

There is much to learn out there I always say. Be humble.
Old 6th June 2006
  #82
Lives for gear
self-motivated, DIY, studying, bright, collaborators don't need debt

If you have $40K a year and think a 2 or 4 year "certificate" will make your musical life great, FANTASTIC. You are the next warm body on the assembly line. FOR PROFIT institutions promise, in writing, little or nothing. Butts in seats provide profit with inescapable debt and guaranteed payment.

A person who is self-motivated CAN study and work their way into a good position with $4K in gear (or less, way less) for self-training. Then they sell the gear for $3K and move on if it doesn't work out. Library books are the cheapest things. TIME is what is lacking. Most people work too much, commute too much, and try to live too well, when they really need TIME to read/study/experiment/think. If you have someone helping you along professionally, all the better. Expect to wash their car, fetch the paper, make coffee, empty wastebaskets. You are being given the benefit of their experience, which will save you the TIME that you don't have to waste making the same mistakes and cleaning up after.

There is no such thing as "menial work" for someone moving through it. Fast food: easy. Waiting: tips, meet good people, learn to deal with the other kind. Janitorial: off-hours and high pay. Construction: hard work, high pay. Saving some money gets you to where you have a real chance to "make it".

If I were running a for-profit school that needs to keep the pipeline full, I would make sure that there were 4 (or 40!) full time Web Board Specialists putting out the good news and positive spin on bad and no news. There would be dozens of "personas" and scripts to go with. It would be part of the advertising overhead, like ads in MIX mag. Not accusing anyone here, but if you do a web search....

A year tuition at Oregon State is now $5K. They have a music dept. They have a Physics Dept. They have an EE dept. You could take classes in all/any. I bet your State has the same deal.

How many foreign music production students who want to be World Music Biz people attend American for-profit vocational-ed programs? Not Americans studying "foreign music", but French, English, or Canadian students (paying cash, not Federally Guaranteed Student Loans) who know it's better than anything in their country (which they would likely attend at no-charge)?

Just wondering.

Karl
Old 6th June 2006
  #83
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knerd
Sure! which McDonalds shall I address it to? ;-)




)
hahaha good one
Old 6th June 2006
  #84
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
I love how everyone is convinced they are so much different and better than the next guy =)

There is much to learn out there I always say. Be humble.
Again, you're pulling assumptions out of your arse, kid.
Old 6th June 2006
  #85
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Harley-OIART's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Again, you're pulling assumptions out of your arse, kid.
fuuck Wouldn't the assumption that I'm a "kid" (Which unfortunately for your mouthy-a**, I'm not) put your foot in your mouth? Yes.... Yes it would.

Old 6th June 2006
  #86
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Today 09:10 AM
RobR

For the record, 80% of North America is working in the "Service Business".

Maybe I shouldn't be so subtle next time.

Today 08:53 AM
RobR

Date of Birth:
November 29, 1983
Age:
22


Correct?


Somebody lock this thread. It is serving no purpose.
I'm compiling things to refrain from having ten thousand short replies
on my record.

Anyway, I'm very busy now, so I'll keep it short.

I apologize for being so aggresive. You struck a nerve to say the least.

Discussing recording schools, in the end, is rather futile.
I'm here for my own intentions. I don't need to go into detail.
Regardless, I made a choice that was suited for my situation.
I would of course reccomend a traditional college, hands down.
Unfortunately, a four year college is not the best option for myself.

I do have a response for Rufus's questions, and I will tend to these questions when I have time.
Old 6th June 2006
  #87
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Harley-OIART's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Discussing recording schools, in the end, is rather futile.
I completely disagree, education is important, and some schools provide a very effective means to get that knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
I would of course reccomend a traditional college, hands down.
Unfortunately, a four year college is not the best option for myself.
For learning Recording Arts, I agree that a four year program would not be the most effective option. There are many great programs out there which provide students with the means to flourish. Again, it is up to the student, however some environments and course curriculum, are more effective at delivering information than others.

-thats my 60 cents on the issue.
Old 6th June 2006
  #88
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StefanColson's Avatar
 

In case anyone cares, here's my stance. This craft of ours isn't really all that complicated or difficult, when compared to many other serious disciplines. If you need a degree to prepare you for a recording job, then there are other more serious problems afoot.

The theoretical training that you need and will recieve in school is not exactly "weighty". You could read a couple of books a couple of times and come away with significantly more knowledge than you will by going through an audio program anywhere.

The practical hands on training that you will recieve isn't all that practical. Running sessions with other students or engineering for school projects is nothing like real work in the real world. People function much differently when they're spending real bread on the session, and the work flow is very different.

In terms of preparedness for the real world, 3 months interning at a studio, reading books and all that you can on the web, and most importantly PAYING ATTENTION, will put you in a much better place than completing an audio degree. There is no substitute for sitting in on real sessions, actually hearing the theory that you're studying, and actual real-life experience.

All of that being said, a little about where I'm coming from: I'm a Berklee grad, and while I think that the audio component of the curriculum wasn't worth the time and money (through no fault of the school. They've actually got a great program, I just am of the belief that a four year program in recording/producing is extreme overkill), the rest of the four year degree is very worthwile. The musical aspects are great, because speaking the same language and sharing that common ground with your clients makes life SO much easier. As an engineer I love having charts in front of me during a session, and it makes everything run smoother. You also get more respect from the client if they know that you know what you're talking about musically.

The other aspect of school that would make me do it again if I could go back is the connections. I get a lot of work from people that I met in school. Alot of it comes from musicians I hung with, some of it comes from recommendations from professors or other engineers who can't make/don't want sessions, and most of it comes from word of mouth that spreads faster in a relatively small community like a college.

The other thing that college won't teach you: Engineering is much more about personal interaction and people skills than it is about getting great sounds. If you're easy to work with, responsive to the clients needs, and you make them comfortable, you will get repeat work over better engineers that don't have the same people skills. Getting a great headphone mix and some friendly banter with the client that makes them comfortable will ensure that you keep clients. A monkey can be trained to push buttons, but it takes skill and experience to draw good performances out of someone and to deal with clients well.

Also, I don't know how it works for major label stuff, but for the market that I'm in the time it takes to set up is very important as well. It's the first impression that the client gets, and if I'm sluggish or don't appear to be totally in control of the situation then it's an uphill battle for the rest of the session. There are times too when you'll have a bluegrass band showing up as an 18-piece big band is finishing, and you've got to make that transition quickly and with poise.

You also have to know how to deal with different types of clients. I've got to treat the punk band coming in for a 24-hour marathon tracking fest differently than I have to treat the jazz combo, or the folk singer doing an album of jewish childrens music, or the college acapella group. You have to know when to hold a clients hand through the entire process and when to be brutally honest. You have to know how to deal with producers. It's all a game.

A good reel and your engineering skill will get you some work, but people skills will get you repeat work, and it will get you MORE work. There are many people in my market that are better engineers than I am, with much more experience, that have the same rates as I do. I manage to keep relatively busy because I'm easy to work with, and I carry no ego bull**** with me. It's all about making the client happy, there's no confusion about who's paying who. My job is to make them happy and comfortable, and that's what I do, while trying to get the best sounding product that I'm capable of in the process. The actual engineering is the easiest, least stressful part of the job.
Old 7th June 2006
  #89
Gear Addict
 

We're all just repeating ourselves.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
Discussing recording schools, in the end, is rather futile.

I completely disagree, education is important, and some schools provide a very effective means to get that knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobR
I would of course reccomend a traditional college, hands down.
Unfortunately, a four year college is not the best option for myself.

For learning Recording Arts, I agree that a four year program would not be the most effective option. There are many great programs out there which provide students with the means to flourish. Again, it is up to the student, however some environments and course curriculum, are more effective at delivering information than others.

-thats my 60 cents on the issue.
I meant to say that discussing recording schools is futile on this message forum.
There's people who went (or are going), who may or may not have any connection to the recording world; versus people who have experienced
bad interns. There's a huge fence in between, obstucting everbody's view; whilst we lob bricks at each other. We can discuss things that might have more interesting results, as in, why do modern pop songs not have progressive transitions?

That said, I don't really agree or disagree with anyone on this subject.
That's mainly why I went to Full Sail. The area was so grey, I had to find out for myself. Mind you, most of the people talking trash about this place either A.) Have never stepped foot into the facility. or B.) Were the boneheads I wish that
Full Sail wouldn't have let in in the first place.

I could say that I went to the Conservatory of Recording Arts, and that it's filled with naked martians. Are you really going to know the truth without at least peaking inside?


When I stated that Full Sail was the best option for myself. I didn't mean
a generalization of students who are interested in audio. I meant that I, personally, didn't have too many options. While there hasn't been a year since High School that I haven't been undergoing some sort of educational process; I will state that I have been completely exiled from the "regionally acknowlegded" world of collegia. I would fit in much better at Bloomington, IN; unfortunately, I'm not allowed to walk in those sort of doors.

I'm an insomniac, and that kind of leads into me coming across as rather...well...lame in the brainiac department, especially when typing on this forum. Contrastingly, I'm one of the brightest of the bunch. It's not the brains that keep me out of "real college", it's the mistakes I made when I was 18. Namely, choosing the wrong courses (I was too afraid to follow through with my dream, I was told to think of recording only as a hobby), and not understanding what happens when you stop showing up without dropping out. Literally, I did not understand how college politics work. I had nobody to tell me these things.
I still can't go.

Don't think I'm complaining, or anything, though. That's simply a waste of time.

Mr. Stefan. You are tredding on the obvious. I'll back up your statement in every way.

Rufus, I've been up for, maybe four days, thus far, but I'll make do with my promise to answer your questions:

Quote:
If you have $40K a year and think a 2 or 4 year "certificate" will make your musical life great, FANTASTIC. You are the next warm body on the assembly line. FOR PROFIT institutions promise, in writing, little or nothing. Butts in seats provide profit with inescapable debt and guaranteed payment.
$40,000 for one year. It's a choice. They can pump in and out as many students as they want, as long as I get what I want out of it.


Quote:
A person who is self-motivated CAN study and work their way into a good position with $4K in gear (or less, way less) for self-training. Then they sell the gear for $3K and move on if it doesn't work out. Library books are the cheapest things. TIME is what is lacking. Most people work too much, commute too much, and try to live too well, when they really need TIME to read/study/experiment/think. If you have someone helping you along professionally, all the better. Expect to wash their car, fetch the paper, make coffee, empty wastebaskets. You are being given the benefit of their experience, which will save you the TIME that you don't have to waste making the same mistakes and cleaning up after.
Self training? Sorry, never worked for me. Never worked for mostly anybody.
I can name, maybe 1 person, who benefited from "self-training". Ever.

In the second part, I believe you are speaking of an internship.
How can someone devote 60 hrs a week to a studio for three months (that's how you offer someone your interning time, correct?) if they need to wait tables, tend bars, and build decks just to pay the rent?

I'll be honest, I went here because I received a deal I couldn't refuse.

"Rob, if you go to one of these here 'recording schools', and prove to me you're serious; serious enough to pay off $40,000 for the rest of your life, than I'll cover your living expenses wherever and whenever you intern."

Would you say no? I'm mostly here to regain my respect from the only person in the world who is willing to support what anyone would agree is a terrible job market to be getting into. Work a little bit to pay monthly student loans while interning (which I could easily put off for six months at a time..the loans that is) versus no oppurtunity at all? This is my situation. I can't speak for everyone else.

Mind you, this is the oppurtunity of the lifetime for me. I should have been
serving coffee to A.E.'s at least 8 years ago. I choose MANY wrong paths.


Quote:
If I were running a for-profit school that needs to keep the pipeline full, I would make sure that there were 4 (or 40!) full time Web Board Specialists putting out the good news and positive spin on bad and no news. There would be dozens of "personas" and scripts to go with. It would be part of the advertising overhead, like ads in MIX mag. Not accusing anyone here, but if you do a web search....
A.) Full Sail's advertising effectively kept me away from them for over 10 years.
I know where you're coming from, and to be honest, I never thought, and still
don't think the business end could give a "hoot" about who they pump in and
out. Thankfully, their educational staff, does care. And I would go as far to
say that they oftentimes care too much for people who don't even deserve
the attention. As for the lab instructors, their qualifications don't really
matter, they're trained to show you what buttons to push. To be honest,
many of the lab instructors do have experience, and when it shows,
it sometimes shines.

B.) Full Sail has a list of former students they constantly use in their advertising.
I have met some of these people. They aren't the kind of cats who were
reading Tape Op when it was an ashcan, or ever even heard of the old
PAIA magazines. Regardless, they are really nice people, and they really
do think FS was the bees knees. You gotta understand, somebody's gotta
work on those records we love to hate. You also have to understand that the
majority wants to be a part of that world. FS staff members work on records
for the likes of Cam'ron (or insert glitzy rapper here), and they've definetely
never even heard of CAN. What they advertise, definetely ain't my world;
but it is their world.


Quote:
A year tuition at Oregon State is now $5K. They have a music dept. They have a Physics Dept. They have an EE dept. You could take classes in all/any. I bet your State has the same deal.
Including only up to my younger sister's masters; let's see, $50,000 for Tufts....oh wait, she's going again next year...$100,000 for Tufts + $200,000 for Boston College.

What's your point?

Oregon State is funded by taxes and federal/state monies (ie more taxes).

FS, is not. CRAS, is not. SAE, is not.

If Oregon State was a private college or vocational school; you'd be looking
at around $35,000 a year. If you're lowballing.

I'm in school about 4 times as much as your average college student; of course, it
isn't Harvard, so, let's say the education is worth about twice as much as a year
of college. $20,000 a year, for a non-government funded school really ain't bad at all. It's not like I'm taking massage therapy classes in the back of a broom closet. They're sucking up more electricity than the rest of the city combined.

Quote:
How many foreign music production students who want to be World Music Biz people attend American for-profit vocational-ed programs? Not Americans studying "foreign music", but French, English, or Canadian students (paying cash, not Federally Guaranteed Student Loans) who know it's better than anything in their country (which they would likely attend at no-charge)?
Surprisingly, about 16% of the student body. Don't ask me why, I really don't have an explanation. There's no french students of course; their government doesn't actually allow them have a job, y'know.
Old 7th June 2006
  #90
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

nice post RobR , that should shut them up.
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