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Full Sail Graduates Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 27th November 2012
  #271
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kennybro's Avatar
Just read through a few pages, and I'm pretty amazed. Doesn't everyone KNOW that FS is basically a business, buyer beware. People actually believe FS when they claim that jobs exist? Anyone opening their eyes and taking a quick glance around? What do students think? FS is a foolproof road to success in a field where gigs don't exist?

There are a lot of media schools in the same boat. Art academies, Columbia, etc... I teach TV production at a university, and I'm totally up front with my students about their prospects of becoming Brad Falchuk, or even ever making a living in audio/visual. The ones who work end up doing weddings, depositions, corporate. A few get in with big city TV, usually news. One student from the past six years just finished a Hollywood feature, and has a real gig as a producer, writer, director. One. That's reality.

Truly, the only viable alternatives are for FS to just shutdown, or get real with students. And if they got real, enrollment would dive to a level where they'd shut down anyway. FS has no alternative than to do what they do, and as long as people keep signing up, they'll keep doing what they do.
Old 27th November 2012
  #272
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suedesound's Avatar
 

yep, i quite possibly posted earlier but that's it. you ain't gonna make money unless you're the rare exception, but you can pay an assload of cash to try! that said i went to expression, i'm doing okay, a handful of my friends from school are doing okay. most are not "in the "industrury", live sound, corporate a/v work etc. job placement is a joke
Old 27th November 2012
  #273
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kennybro's Avatar
That's the deal. There are things other than R&R engineering stardom that you can do with the knowledge you can get there, but...

1) it won't pay back the loan,
2) as a freelancer, nobody cares if you went to school. they want to see your happy client list, &
3) the students there seem to be mostly starry-eyed about pop music celebrity, because that's what FS markets.

That's a recipe for financial and career disaster. I want to be an astronaut. Where's the school?
Old 28th November 2012
  #274
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doom64's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
That's the deal. There are things other than R&R engineering stardom that you can do with the knowledge you can get there, but...

1) it won't pay back the loan,
2) as a freelancer, nobody cares if you went to school. they want to see your happy client list, &
3) the students there seem to be mostly starry-eyed about pop music celebrity, because that's what FS markets.

That's a recipe for financial and career disaster. I want to be an astronaut. Where's the school?
^^^ This is the truth. Anyone considering FSU or any similar schools you are better off buying gear and making your product look/sound professional. Do free work for regional companies to get your name out there. Tons of books and videos are available to buy on Amazon which in total will be a whole helluva lot cheaper than Full Sail's tuition. Heck, I am willing to bet some of the classes at FS use books you can buy off Amazon as part of their curriculum. It really is a shame so many people get duped by the likes of schools like these. A damn shame.

Makes me want to get a short-term lease in Winter Park and protest in front of their building every day.

Have you guys seen the amount of scratch these guys are pulling in? And by these guys I mean C. Kevin Landry. $205 million/year last time I checked or thereabouts! That information is publicly available through the federal government (FAFSA records) so I am not just speculating But the devil will get his due...
Old 28th November 2012
  #275
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Rust Creep's Avatar
 

Schools don't advertise businesses do
I got taken for $12k getting computer certs when i was 20
Then went to a University for an accounting degree

Sent from my DROIDX
Old 29th November 2012
  #276
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
Anyone considering FSU or any similar schools you are better off buying gear and making your product look/sound professional. Do free work for regional companies to get your name out there.
Generally I consider the buy gear and learn on your own advice, to be bad advice. I consider engineering an apprentice career. But everyone's path is different, so whatever works for you personally.
Old 29th November 2012
  #277
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doom64's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrowood101 View Post
Generally I consider the buy gear and learn on your own advice, to be bad advice. I consider engineering an apprentice career. But everyone's path is different, so whatever works for you personally.
Why? When microphones/compressors/tape machines/all the other gear was invented/coming out there were no colleges for that stuff. There were well written manuals for a lot of gear but people did this amazing thing called EXPERIMENTING!

Also you edited out my message when you quoted me so let me add the rest of the paragraph back in: Tons of books and videos are available to buy on Amazon which in total will be a whole helluva lot cheaper than Full Sail's tuition. Heck, I am willing to bet some of the classes at FS use books you can buy off Amazon as part of their curriculum.

I don't get work because I graduated from college. My degree means sh*t all. People hire me because of what's in my portfolio...and because they know of me. I could have a degree from an ivy league school but if my audio sounds like a tin can I would be passed up. College was one of the biggest wastes of money in my life and I would have been better served spending money on gear, marketing and renting a commercial space to record/mix at.

There was a big audio studio where I live that was putting out a garbage product but charging $$$$ for it. They didn't hire me or even interview me for an internship (back when I was in college) so I became their competition. They provided a client list on their website which contained a lot of local companies so guess who got a postcard and follow up demo CD in the mail? They went out of business about 3 years ago...good. I keep my overhead low and my product/customer service good and my marketing up to snuff...that's how businesses thrive.
Old 29th November 2012
  #278
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Zooey's Avatar
 

Wow, this is an ancient thread.

I have to wonder whatever happened to the OP and whether he eventually got a job in audio.

Maybe he's still here under another user name, or maybe he just suddenly walked away from GS six years ago and never looked back.
Old 29th November 2012
  #279
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
Why? When microphones/compressors/tape machines/all the other gear was invented/coming out there were no colleges for that stuff. There were well written manuals for a lot of gear but people did this amazing thing called EXPERIMENTING!
Well depends how far you want to go back, but in the past and some today engineering was an apprentice job, i.e. you learned under others that had mastered the craft already. At the same time people would experiment on their own. One doesn't cancel out the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
Also you edited out my message when you quoted me so let me add the rest of the paragraph back in:
Well I edited your post because I was just trying to comment on one small aspect of it. Didn't have the time then for a long post, sorry about that. Intent wasn't malicious, but just trying to be more clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
Tons of books and videos are available to buy on Amazon which in total will be a whole helluva lot cheaper than Full Sail's tuition. Heck, I am willing to bet some of the classes at FS use books you can buy off Amazon as part of their curriculum.
Wasn't really speaking of FS specifically. Either way this doesn't really matter. You can pretty much buy any textbook for any college online these days. When you are going to college you generally aren't paying for access to the books, you are paying for the teaching/curriculum or at least ideally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
I don't get work because I graduated from college. My degree means sh*t all. People hire me because of what's in my portfolio...and because they know of me. I could have a degree from an ivy league school but if my audio sounds like a tin can I would be passed up. College was one of the biggest wastes of money in my life and I would have been better served spending money on gear, marketing and renting a commercial space to record/mix at.
More power to you if you are being successful in your chosen path!! Also I agree once pass the internship phase no one cares about your degree. Also generally, as someone that sometimes hires interns, I don't even care what school someone went to. But I do care that they at least went to some school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
There was a big audio studio where I live that was putting out a garbage product but charging $$$$ for it. They didn't hire me or even interview me for an internship (back when I was in college) so I became their competition. They provided a client list on their website which contained a lot of local companies so guess who got a postcard and follow up demo CD in the mail? They went out of business about 3 years ago...good. I keep my overhead low and my product/customer service good and my marketing up to snuff...that's how businesses thrive.
Well let's be honest I'm sure undercutting was in play also. Not that is necessarily always a bad thing, but pretty sure you left that part out (your "overhead low" comment kind of gives that away). Either way congrats on your success.

This all varies on what your goals are and location. I live and work in LA. Everyone I work with has come up the studio system to some degree. My goal was never to be a studio owner or a producer but to be the best engineer I could be. So I choose to move to LA and work up the studio system.

These days it is impossible to get a decent internship without having a degree from one of the schools, it's just how it is. Does it need to be FS, nope, can it be FS yep.

All the engineers that I look up to and love their work, has came up the studio system, so this is why I choose this path. I have gotten to learn from the greats in the industry, which I am very thankful for. Hasn't been the most fun path, but it has worked out. My full living comes from engineering and has for around 10 years.

Now back on point to your statement of "buy and learn on your own." Again everyone's path is different, but I can say I have never worked in LA with another engineer that just bought gear and was completely self taught, it just doesn't happen out here. Obviously there is project studios in LA, but I am more referring to larger projects that you can make a living off of.

It's amazing what being in the studio 12-15 hours a day, working in the same room as an experienced engineer, can do to train your ears. Also you get to learn techniques of other great engineers. Then in studio free time experiment. Again learning from others does't stop you from experimenting on your own, shoot if you are a good engineer you are experimenting in some way everyday. If you want to be the best engineer possible, I find this path way more productive, then reading books. The problem is you need the silly degree these days to start that path. Personally I have kept my overhead low by having none. I don't buy gear and get payed to work on others gear. Also I have no marketing costs or any of that. These days one producer generally keeps me more busy then I want to be. But in the past producers/composers hire me generally because of some association with me, dating back to my original internship or other engineers/producers/composers I have worked for.
Old 30th November 2012
  #280
Today everyone is an expert. Just ask them.

When I was growing up there was no internet, there was no schools to teach you how to be an audio engineer. If you wanted to be an audio engineer you learned what you could from books or from a mentor or you found someone who was doing audio professionally and you asked intern with them

Today every one reads magazines like MIX and scans the internet latching on to any information they can and if someone in Mix or on line tells them that they should use such and such a microphone the would be audio engineer wrongly assumes that just by buying and using that microphone for their next recording it will make their work sound "professional". The same can be said for plugins and outboard equipment. The would be engineers do this without ever thinking about what they are try to do or experimenting with what they have to work with. I did a lot of my early recording with SM-57s and 58s and they came off well. Sure I always wanted Neumanns or some other exotic microphone but learned to use what I had. Today with Daddy's credit card and a GC on every corner the would be audio engineers can have what ever they want instantaneously. There is no learning curve and no having to learn how to use what you have to do the best job possible.

Today many young people don't want anyone to tell them or show them how to do things. They already have their ideas and ways of doing things from reading and surfing the web. I have interns and when I suggest they are doing things incorrectly they say "this is the WAY it is suppose to be done because that is the way I read it should be done". If you try and critique their work they say "well this is the way it is suppose to sound and I personally like what it did". If I said that to the person that was showing me the proper way to mike a bass or a guitar amp they would basically have told me "there is the door and don't let it hit you on your butt on your way out"

I went to college and got a degree in Radio TV because there were no schools that taught audio at the time. All the time I was in college I kept learning about audio by doing it everyday and had my own recording business while in college. By the time I started into my first professional audio job I already had 12 years of "real world" audio experience. Today I see and talk to young people in GC and Sam Ash. They are buying $6000 worth of equipment and they are going to do their first recording project and hope to have it "up on the web by then end of the week". They will probably never crack a manual or try experimenting with different mic placement but will just "do the recording". Some how this doesn't quite make sense but I guess this is the way things are done today.

It seems that a lot of "audio" schools are populated by out of work audio engineers. They could not make it in the real word so now they have found a way to make money by teaching young people. There are exceptions where the people teaching are professionals of the highest caliber but I believe they are the exceptions and not the rule. I know when I was in college most of the professors hadn't been near a real radio and or TV station for years. The most requested change in the curriculum was to have people who were currently leaders in the industry come in to lecture and lead seminars. Our requests fell on deaf ears as the professors did not want to deal with the competition.

Places like Full Sail will eventually cease to exist if they cannot keep up with the changing needs of the technology workforce which is why they are now offering courses in graphics and video

MTCW and FWIW
Old 30th November 2012
  #281
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doom64's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrowood101 View Post
These days it is impossible to get a decent internship without having a degree from one of the schools, it's just how it is. Does it need to be FS, nope, can it be FS yep.

All the engineers that I look up to and love their work, has came up the studio system, so this is why I choose this path. I have gotten to learn from the greats in the industry, which I am very thankful for. Hasn't been the most fun path, but it has worked out. My full living comes from engineering and has for around 10 years.

Now back on point to your statement of "buy and learn on your own." Again everyone's path is different, but I can say I have never worked in LA with another engineer that just bought gear and was completely self taught, it just doesn't happen out here. Obviously there is project studios in LA, but I am more referring to larger projects that you can make a living off of.

It's amazing what being in the studio 12-15 hours a day, working in the same room as an experienced engineer, can do to train your ears. Also you get to learn techniques of other great engineers. Then in studio free time experiment. Again learning from others does't stop you from experimenting on your own, shoot if you are a good engineer you are experimenting in some way everyday. If you want to be the best engineer possible, I find this path way more productive, then reading books. The problem is you need the silly degree these days to start that path. Personally I have kept my overhead low by having none. I don't buy gear and get payed to work on others gear. Also I have no marketing costs or any of that. These days one producer generally keeps me more busy then I want to be. But in the past producers/composers hire me generally because of some association with me, dating back to my original internship or other engineers/producers/composers I have worked for.

Agreed we all travel down different paths. It's cool to hear others' stories so thanks for sharing. ;-)

I couldn't get a decent internship anywhere (I admit it could have been my shy personality at the time but I am a hard worker) so I had no choice but to start up my own place. Once I had some initial tracks recorded (ones that weren't recorded at my college) marketing is/was the hardest part of running a business. I won't reveal any more secrets here but it took me a bit of time to think of a strategy that worked. Being a fan of "The Apprentice" helped. :-)

Audio is just such a niche and there's so many people doing it in my area that there isn't enough work to go around. And absolutely I could charge less and do better work because I wasn't wasting money on needless things like that company did. I most certainly doing the $15/hr. undercut business suicide thing like a lot of the competition is doing though.

Believe me I am still not 100% happy with my business. I still have to do other types of work (outside of audio engineering) in order to make a living. I know what needs to be done o change that but the money just isn't there and I don't feel like going into debt.

But hey I wouldn't want it any other way. I tried the cubicle thing and that didn't work out. I'm the stapler guy in Office Space and the guy who did work but others took credit for while they gossiped like chickens 70% of the time.
Old 30th November 2012
  #282
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About the only comment I can make is they have cool jackets.

Actually, here is what I notice about various educational systems. First off, I am a firm believer in a solid education. Sometimes people have to go through a private college a la FullSail, but others go through a traditional educational system.

I know full well, they can get expensive and some of these places get some very prestigious people that cycle through even though they have a bunch that don't.

Sometimes, people THINK they can go to these colleges, get their degree and AUTOMATICALLY THINK they are KING$HIT because they have a degree from XYZ college. Berklee comes to mind. Back in the 70's, they had World Class musicians come out of Berklee that got famous, which is why Berklee got even more people to attend, but from the majority of graduates at Berklee, I think they missed the point of studying music, they seemed to study chops, but completely ignored how to study MUSIC. YES, there are some Berklee grads that DID study music and may turn out to be big hames. BUT, I think it's all about how you approach the education of not only what they teach you, but also going outside the normal curriculum. For example. IF you study music, the college/school might teach Blues theory, progressions, but they aren't always teaching you how to listen to the originators of blues and how to learn feel, an ear, etc. That's something you have to do on your own. For engineering, you can learn how to use XYZ software/hardware, etc. but how to train your ear to learn how to listen, that's something you just have to learn how to develop. Also, having good taste in music is also helpful. Example, listen to classical recordings, jazz recordings, etc. from the early days and not just the synth pop, rap, hip hop commercial stuff that's selling.

Either way, I'm sure at any college, you are going to get a Bell Curve and it's just figuring out where you fit, or someone else fits on that Bell Curve.

But, they have, or at least had cool jackets...........
Old 30th November 2012
  #283
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by arrowood101 View Post
Generally I consider the buy gear and learn on your own advice, to be bad advice. I consider engineering an apprentice career. But everyone's path is different, so whatever works for you personally.
Very interesting thread. I agree your sentiments Arrowhead. Unfortunately there seems to be this idea that is widely promoted on the internet that the best way to succeed is to go at it alone, buy what you need, and learn yourself. In my experience the opposite is true. The best way to learn is to surround yourself with real people who are interested in the same things as you, really know what they are doing, are enthusiastic, and have lots of experience - "no man is an island" right? I'm not saying that you can't learn things on your own, but from what I've seen most people who are experts in their field have had many mentors along the way.

The problem with Full Sail in my opinion is that it's not really about Earning the degree as much as it about Buying it. It seems to me to be more about marketing a Rock Star/Producer lifestyle than it is about actually learning a skill set. We need to remember that at the end of the day Full Sail is a business so (contrary to what it may seem) developing great audio engineers is not their primary objective - their bottom line comes first. It is therefore not in their best interests to have a culture of people dedicated to their craft who take the necessary time to educate each other and students, but rather to pump out as many graduates as quickly as possible and cash the checks.

These are all just my opinions of course, trying to draw some connections between the hyper-consumer/isolated society we live in and the problems that it creates for the music industry. Hope I'm not being too negative!
Old 30th November 2012
  #284
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
There was a big audio studio where I live that was putting out a garbage product but charging $$$$ for it. They didn't hire me or even interview me for an internship (back when I was in college) so I became their competition. They provided a client list on their website which contained a lot of local companies so guess who got a postcard and follow up demo CD in the mail? They went out of business about 3 years ago...good. I keep my overhead low and my product/customer service good and my marketing up to snuff...that's how businesses thrive.
Yes this seems to be another part of the problem - Many big studios decided to no longer invest in their future. The apprenticeship seems to be all but gone in professional studios these days. Unfortunately they replaced general assistants or entry level positions with unpaid interns which in turn just led to these future engineers becoming the competition. It really contributes to an "Everyone for Themselves" recording industry. Your story is a perfect example of this. It's unfortunate because I feel that the large studios of the past really provided a great learning environment. But kudos to you for being persistent and doing what you had to do even if that meant going at it alone. Like I said, you definitely can learn a lot by yourself, I just feel it is easier and better when you are able to learn as part of a community.
Old 30th November 2012
  #285
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kennybro's Avatar
Everything's what you make of it. From a look around their site, they do design and graphics, 3D/CGT, web design, gaming, writing and film, etc... I suspect a lot of people drop the cash thinking that FSU will do all of the hard work for them. I'm kind of doing a 180 on them.

I hadn't checked them out for a while, and wrongly assumed that they were an audio recording school only, which would be a questionable operation.

Nobody can guarantee anyone a job in the arts. They can only teach you how to do the job. After checking them out, I get the feeling that a highly motivated person with talent and personality might slide into something like the Disney organization from there. Do the internships, meet the people and make them like you, be on time, dress well, be respectful of experience, and don't post stupid drunk photos of yourself on facebook, and you could get a gig that you might not have access to without their credibility. Very few people do all of that. People feel extremely entitled these days. If you're willing to do that stuff, you're already in the top 5%.
Old 1st December 2012
  #286
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Joe Haze's Avatar
 

Discussing corporate crap. Be all american white guy and you may get a crack at white amerika Disney. I fully agree with you, but that is what has ruined the industry. glamorised and homogenised
Old 1st December 2012
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Haze View Post
Discussing corporate crap. Be all american white guy and you may get a crack at white amerika Disney. I fully agree with you, but that is what has ruined the industry. glamorised and homogenised
First, the audio/video/graphic design/animation/website design/etc. have all exploded in the past 15 years or so.

They have a ton of people trying to go after how ever many jobs there are, which was growing for a while, and I'm sure still is to a certain degree.

In order to get a clue on the number of toys there are to learn, each learning institution has to obtain these "toys" and teach them, because if someone across has them, you have to have them. All of these "toys" they teach aren't cheap. People's salaries, especially those that are guest instructors that are famous "AREN'T CHEAP" either.

In both private and public sector educational systems, costs have skyrocketed over the past so many years.

How do educators educate the masses of kids coming in and out of these colleges?
Old 5th December 2012
  #288
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
Agreed we all travel down different paths. It's cool to hear others' stories so thanks for sharing. ;-)

I couldn't get a decent internship anywhere (I admit it could have been my shy personality at the time but I am a hard worker) so I had no choice but to start up my own place. Once I had some initial tracks recorded (ones that weren't recorded at my college) marketing is/was the hardest part of running a business. I won't reveal any more secrets here but it took me a bit of time to think of a strategy that worked. Being a fan of "The Apprentice" helped. :-)

Audio is just such a niche and there's so many people doing it in my area that there isn't enough work to go around. And absolutely I could charge less and do better work because I wasn't wasting money on needless things like that company did. I most certainly doing the $15/hr. undercut business suicide thing like a lot of the competition is doing though.

Believe me I am still not 100% happy with my business. I still have to do other types of work (outside of audio engineering) in order to make a living. I know what needs to be done o change that but the money just isn't there and I don't feel like going into debt.

But hey I wouldn't want it any other way. I tried the cubicle thing and that didn't work out. I'm the stapler guy in Office Space and the guy who did work but others took credit for while they gossiped like chickens 70% of the time.
Sorry a little late in responding. Defiantly everyones path is different. Also everyone will have different road blocks.

I was more of stating an "ideal," but know that isn't alway possible. I have respect for anyone that can find their niche in the audio world, because trust me I know how hard it can be. Props for finding your niche.

My view is a little different, sense I work in a major market (LA), but am from a small town in the "midwest." If I hadn't moved to a major market I would have no idea how I would survive. Work is pretty much the only reason I live in LA (or even CA).

Again props for finding your niche!
Old 5th December 2012
  #289
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Haze View Post
Discussing corporate crap. Be all american white guy and you may get a crack at white amerika Disney. I fully agree with you, but that is what has ruined the industry. glamorised and homogenised
No argument from me on that, but it is what it is.

Universities everywhere are under the funding gun for documentation that their alumni are busy with real jobs in the real world doing something related to their degrees. All the dudes who drop $100k at FSU and then start a basement studio that collapses in 6 months don't do it for them. Or the ones working with microphones at McDonalds.

Unfortunately, corporate is where the real jobs are for what they teach. 99.999% of FSU students who think they're going to be the next Butch Vig should just buy lotto tickets with the cash and increase their chances of fame and fortune exponentially.
Old 5th December 2012
  #290
It is not just audio schools. Please take a look at this BBC News - Downward mobility haunts US education. I know a lot of college administrators who are sweating big time trying to figure out what is coming down the road. A lot of schools have spent big bucks on their physical plants figuring it is a way to lure students with all the amenities like Jacuzzi and fitness rooms in every dorm, quad bedrooms with their own bathroom etc, etc and etc. They have also heavily invested in new class room buildings and hired some of the top professors at very large salaries. It is all good BUT it all maybe for naught when students can no longer afford to come to the fancy newly renovated colleges. Right now it is a seller's market but that could change over night. Only time will tell but the future of higher education in the US is looking a little grim right now.
Old 5th December 2012
  #291
I generally agree with the idea that the whole college system in the States is messed up. The whole thing is just a bankers scam, not just FS. Just a way to have everyone in debt their whole adult life. When did it become mandatory for everyone to go to college? I also feel this has lowered the level of education at most universities. They lower the bar so it is accessible for everyone.
Old 5th December 2012
  #292
I went to community college (2yr) for audio but didnt finish the program. I do wonder though what are you guys mad at exactly?

I personaly learned a lot. Still nowhere near “pro“ but still learned.

Is it that you feel money was wasted because you didnt learn what you expected to? Or because of cost vs real job opportunity?

I have a friend who I painfully envy. He went to a 4yr. Has landed HUGE industry gigs and opened a commercial studio.

From what I see, school taught him a ton, knowing his work prior to school.
However job wise, was a long hard fight but he is one of the most ambitious people I know. He could sell water to a whale.

I think the technical aspect of what schools provide is legit. I think ocerpaying to be at a huge pretty campus is the hang up. Skip full sail, use your local smaller schools and add your passion and fire to take it to the next level.

Posted via mobile device.
Old 6th December 2012
  #293
Quote:
Originally Posted by drethe5th View Post
I went to community college (2yr) for audio but didnt finish the program. I do wonder though what are you guys mad at exactly?

I personaly learned a lot. Still nowhere near “pro“ but still learned.

Is it that you feel money was wasted because you didnt learn what you expected to? Or because of cost vs real job opportunity?
"Mad" is a little overstating it. Exploitation is the issue - the general attitude seems to be patting people on the back, saying "there you are, you're a qualified engineer" and sending them on their way. Problem is, there's a debt needing to be repaid, which is higher than you can afford with an entry level job in audio. Assuming you can find one. Added to the fact this debt has been accumulated training for a job where opportunities are steadily in decline.

In your situation - I presume "community college" means "little to no cost"? In which case - great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drethe5th View Post
I have a friend who I painfully envy. He went to a 4yr. Has landed HUGE industry gigs and opened a commercial studio.

From what I see, school taught him a ton, knowing his work prior to school.
However job wise, was a long hard fight but he is one of the most ambitious people I know. He could sell water to a whale.
I would imagine he, like me, found that his course taught him the basics, and he learned the rest afterwards. I was lucky - I landed a job straight out of uni, and learned more in my first 6 months there than I had in 3 years of a "legit" course at an accredited university. Interestingly, the stuff that's stayed with me has been the stuff I wasn't that interested in there - the acoustics, the physics and so on. The recording stuff I learned has been vastly built upon, corrected, and taken way further. And I graduated top of my year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drethe5th View Post
I think the technical aspect of what schools provide is legit. I think ocerpaying to be at a huge pretty campus is the hang up. Skip full sail, use your local smaller schools and add your passion and fire to take it to the next level.
Completely depends on the school. I think some places are great - in the UK there's LIPA for example, which has tuition and masterclasses from industry professionals. Many colleges, both local and the SAE/FS of this world, are in the main staffed by guys who've never worked in a studio professionally, so what you can actually learn from them of the "real world" is understandably limited (actually, what you can learn from school of the real world is inherently limited of course, but there you go).

The best thing you can do to maximise your chances is to go in with an open mind, leave with minimal debt, and take advantages of all the equipment/opportunities you can.
Old 13th December 2012
  #294
Gear Addict
 
mrfortune's Avatar
 

Spend all that money on gear and take the same amount of time school takes yo learn the gear, hire a private tutor or engineer to teach you, presto you have skills and a studio...
Old 14th December 2012
  #295
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfortune View Post
Spend all that money on gear and take the same amount of time school takes yo learn the gear, hire a private tutor or engineer to teach you, presto you have skills and a studio...
Here is my take. A college education is important, especially having good communication skills, but also indicates you're less likely to be a flake. But what i would recommend is finding other things like computer engineering, electrical engineering, music and maybe some finance courses are good to have in addition to general ed classes. But to be a good recording engineer with a good reputation you have to have a decent understanding of various forms of music, acoustics and get practical experience which can be had a decent junior college with decent gear. But in this day and age, get a degree in something that can open up more opportunities to be safe.

Vocational colleges serve a purpose, but get a degree from traditional college in something as a backup. The music industry has the shiny surface, but it's cut throat and does always pay the bills.

Last edited by drblank; 14th December 2012 at 12:21 AM.. Reason: Typos
Old 1st May 2013
  #296
Here for the gear
Student Loans can own you for the rest of your life.

I was lucky enough to get a job at Westlake when it was one of the best places to learn. Generally, we hired from F.S. and Berkley. My friend Chris Fogel(Alanis,NIN,etc) got me in and my boss misunderstood him in that I was his Roomate as F.S.- Nope I was his roommate in L.A., watching his place while he was working w/ Aerosmith in Miami! They hired me and the only school I'd had was for 4 years at Auburn University where I had dropped out 6 months before graduating. The other runners hated me for this. I was already a live sound guy so that helped. I jumped over 3 runners in the process too, which made things worse. Before promoting me to being an Assistant, I told my boss I need more time on the SSL 4000 VCA Automation. He said "you went to school for this... you should be ready!" I replied no I did not. So, they couldn't fire me and they put through a 9 month Tech Aprenticeship repairing Neves, SSL's, BBSM 10's, Studers, ATR's and even being the guy to serive Melatrons from time to time. Hanson Hsu of Delta H Design gave me a few books and started mentoring me. He then put w/ an amazing Tech named Tony Cross - Mind you I was really young (too young to drink) and a little green - but the knowledge eventually stuck. My education there smoked any 9 month course. I start training F.S. guys shortly after moving to the top of the Tape-Op food Chain and theses cats were not the same as the ones that came through our doors prior to Pro Tools.

I'm one of the rare ones and I'd never hire anyone w/ out any schooling these days. It took 2 to 3 years of dedication w/ no weekends and 3 hours of sleep at night, but it was absolutely worth it! The Old School Techs are the guys I respect and think about the most these days - I still print to tape on my Mixes too!
Old 1st May 2013
  #297
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
"Mad" is a little overstating it. Exploitation is the issue - the general attitude seems to be patting people on the back, saying "there you are, you're a qualified engineer" and sending them on their way. Problem is, there's a debt needing to be repaid, which is higher than you can afford with an entry level job in audio. Assuming you can find one. Added to the fact this debt has been accumulated training for a job where opportunities are steadily in decline.

In your situation - I presume "community college" means "little to no cost"? In which case - great!



I would imagine he, like me, found that his course taught him the basics, and he learned the rest afterwards. I was lucky - I landed a job straight out of uni, and learned more in my first 6 months there than I had in 3 years of a "legit" course at an accredited university. Interestingly, the stuff that's stayed with me has been the stuff I wasn't that interested in there - the acoustics, the physics and so on. The recording stuff I learned has been vastly built upon, corrected, and taken way further. And I graduated top of my year.



Completely depends on the school. I think some places are great - in the UK there's LIPA for example, which has tuition and masterclasses from industry professionals. Many colleges, both local and the SAE/FS of this world, are in the main staffed by guys who've never worked in a studio professionally, so what you can actually learn from them of the "real world" is understandably limited (actually, what you can learn from school of the real world is inherently limited of course, but there you go).

The best thing you can do to maximise your chances is to go in with an open mind, leave with minimal debt, and take advantages of all the equipment/opportunities you can.
.

word.

great post.

.
Old 1st May 2013
  #298
Its a bit disheartening reading through all the negativity towards getting a degree in the entertainment industry.

I just finished my first of a 4 year course in Music Tech and Production in a local University. My long term plan is to finish and move to the US and work my way up in an established recording studio. Idealist maybe, but Im pretty motivated. I have my own projects outside of college and work for my self as a mixing engineer and a freelance live sound engineer.

My question is this: do you think Im wasting my time (and money) getting this piece of paper? Ive a fairly decent set up at home that Im upgrading currently, and Ive learned a lot on my lonesome from books/video tutorials/experience outside of college. Im just afraid if I decide to forget the degree and focus on making it without one that I'll be hindering myself....or not....

If anyone has any experience in the matter or have been in my shoes I'd love to hear some advice.
Old 1st May 2013
  #299
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathansweeney View Post
Its a bit disheartening reading through all the negativity towards getting a degree in the entertainment industry.

I just finished my first of a 4 year course in Music Tech and Production in a local University. My long term plan is to finish and move to the US and work my way up in an established recording studio. Idealist maybe, but Im pretty motivated. I have my own projects outside of college and work for my self as a mixing engineer and a freelance live sound engineer.

My question is this: do you think Im wasting my time (and money) getting this piece of paper? Ive a fairly decent set up at home that Im upgrading currently, and Ive learned a lot on my lonesome from books/video tutorials/experience outside of college. Im just afraid if I decide to forget the degree and focus on making it without one that I'll be hindering myself....or not....

If anyone has any experience in the matter or have been in my shoes I'd love to hear some advice.
I can't see your nationality on this phone, but that'd s big factor as to how easy it would be to get a us work permit - regardless of actually getting any work.
Old 1st May 2013
  #300
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I can't see your nationality on this phone, but that'd s big factor as to how easy it would be to get a us work permit - regardless of actually getting any work.
I'm in ireland, but I've done my research and I have the opportunity to finish my last year in the US (If all gets the go ahead of course). But in general I'm on the fence about spending more money on a cert if I can do it better without one..
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