The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Pro Tools, hijack this thread
Old 17th May 2006
  #1
Gear Addict
 

Pro Tools, hijack this thread

I figured we needed a Thread to just get it all out of our system..

From recent posts [and not so recent] there are strong feelings against Pro Tools.. I love Pro Tools. I have an HD2 rig with 1x 192... It works good for me [for now] ... If HD core cards were cheaper [or more powerful, or used chips from this decade] would you hate Pro Tools less?

What would Digidesign have to do to win back the newer logic and neundo users?



discuss. [kick and shove!]
Old 17th May 2006
  #2
Lives for gear
 
nikki-k's Avatar
 

Hi!

I think many miss the point of TDM: it is like Pyramix and such- a digital mixer built on DSP cards. It just happens to sit inside the computer, and is modular (to some extent). It is NOT simply an overblown Po-Co or UAD-1.

Sure, Digi is easy to throw stones at: big company, keeps things under their control, does not seem to like playing nice with direct competitors (arguable, of course). Apple is kinda similar. I can still hear the echoes of those unhappy (understatement to some) Windows Logic users. And hardware + Apple (pretty much) = DO WHAT WE SAY MF'er!!! heh

I own Nuendo 3.2, as well as an HD4 Accel + Digi 192, both on XP. Both are excellent apps. Nuendo has no hardware directly associated- buy your own! But, it is intended to solely be that: an app. PT HD, OTOH, is an enviornment + an app that overlays on it. Much like Apple has strict containment on their environment (hard- and software), so does Digi. They build the DAW (app, software) on THEIR hardware.

For others, Nuendo is an easy decision because it provides a different type of mixer (32-bit float on host DSP), and allows more freedom. Cost is something some consider a huge difference, but I simply do not see it as being nearly as plausible an excuse to consider. Pricing out my HD4 Accel vs a nice UAD-1 + PoCo + Dual-Dual Core 4G Nuendo machine with Aurora16 and Lynx STILL comes up within a couple $$$k of my HD rig, computer included. Both do an incredible job, both allow one to develop fast, efficient and great sounding works.

Some like goin barefoot, some like goin out in tennies or loafers, or mega$$$ dress shoes. Some care about the label they wear. Some care about the name on the car they drive. Some care if their fav guitar player can do 128th notes @ 200bpm cleaner than some other bozo. And some care if someone calls their fav a bozo. Some, enough to shoot the person spouting such blasphemy.

Me? I could give a **** less. If it works for me, makes MY day brighter, doesn't piss me off, doesn't break FOR ME, and makes me forget 1,000 + soft minded, bung-mouthed, regurgitative, couldn't-form-a-single-opinion-on-their-own sheep bad mouthed it, then I keep it. And if I can afford another toy to try, and find it works too- I keep it.

So why a long post about something I dont care about?
dfegad Too hot today, and instead of smacking every idiot I overheard while out and about today, I found this thread, and it just invited me in to spew diatribe all over it, like an incredibly stupid **** that walks into a room, is asked to walk forward a few more paces onto the nice, protective plastic, and 5 seconds later, wonders why they are playin a harp, or bein handed a damn pitchfork now. IOW, it is my time to be the blathering idiot, and say WTF I feel like. About something I actually love, but could care less what the manufacturer's label says.

Pick your toys by how fun they are...not by who makes 'em. heh thumbsup
Old 17th May 2006
  #3
Lives for gear
 
H-Rezz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knerd
I figured we needed a Thread to just get it all out of our system..

From recent posts [and not so recent] there are strong feelings against Pro Tools.. I love Pro Tools. I have an HD2 rig with 1x 192... It works good for me [for now] ... If HD core cards were cheaper [or more powerful, or used chips from this decade] would you hate Pro Tools less?

What would Digidesign have to do to win back the newer logic and neundo users?



discuss. [kick and shove!]
I have nothing against P.Tools ......

I view P.tools more like a multi-track and it is great for the mix engineers but for producer/composers it's damn right ugly , Logic for me is just the greatest for actual production that involves tracking vocal/gtr/drums and midi/softsynths/samplers together and has a great work flow about it ! That said i have no problems transfering to P.tools for the final mix if i had to pull everything apart , as long as nobody wants me to actually program a beat in P.Toolsheh
Old 17th May 2006
  #4
Lives for gear
 
tamasdragon's Avatar
 

Vice versa. Many people have prejudice on native, because the price efficiency. Sometimes I think that marketing hype has grown over us, that's why where are arguing things which are probably not the most important ones. Bottom line is you make the big things not the machines.
Regards Tamas Dragon
Old 17th May 2006
  #5
Lives for gear
 
octatonic's Avatar
In Australia we call it the 'tall poppy syndrome'.
Digi are to be hated, because they are the market leader and got their doing some things that pissed people off (obselecence being one).

I started with creator and went to Logic, then pissed around with Logic/TDM for years, tried Nuendo, DP, Cubase and such- I now work 75% in PT and 25% in Logic and couldn't be happier.
No stability issues anymore, midi in PT is fine for basic stuff- Logic for complex sequencing.
I don't mind the purchase price or upgrade prices particularly- you get a lot for your money- there are cheaper solutions out there- I've used them and they feel cheaper.
With PT I know when it is going to work and when it isn't, running out of DSP in the middle of a mix is something I can easily see, and when I have paying customers I need that.
Also the lack of latency is great- I couldn't imagine multi-tracking 16-24 channels of a live band at once on a native system.
I think native has its place- if I hadn't made the outlay for PT and wasn't working professionally then I probably would be defending the native solutions.
People always defend their decisions, which is fine- the fact remains that there is a market for both solutions, TDM and native- even Soundscape I guess.

JR
Old 17th May 2006
  #6
Lives for gear
 
tamasdragon's Avatar
 

Actually I'm in a completely different situation. We had 2 protools system, they sucked imho. And for that money, man, I thought that someone making some rude joke with us. Do not want the flame war begin! But we couldn't be happier with our native systems. We usually record live bands 32-48 track at once, so you were wrong when you couldn't imagine to record that few tracks with native. I won't say that all digi system is wrong, I just think there are much better solutions out there.
Regards Tamas Dragon
Old 17th May 2006
  #7
Gear Nut
 
benelli's Avatar
 

I also see why people bash pro tools, but I've been on it for a decade and I still haven't switched, due mostly to the fact that pro tools can handle heavier edit densities and more tiny files all over the edit window than other DAW's I've tried. That, and the whole audiosuite 'file-based' processing thing has totally changed my workflow. I don't really treat PT as a 'tape machine' but more like a completely modular sampler - an open palette wherein sound can be manipulated, and rhythms and sonic landscapes can be easily created that don't repeat exactly, but change over time. This has not been possible, even in the latest forms, in Logic and some others because they freeze when they get to 6 tracks of tiny audio files sprayed across 6 tracks with automation. It's just more solid on that tip. It's so easy to program beats and such in the audio window, and process each little file individually, shape the kick drums one by one, have the snare sound change and get processed over time... that is impossible in Logic. I think Steinberg has a way to do this with relative ease now, as I know some other more 'electronic' users who are shredding in cubase or nuendo (can't remember which one).

The cost of an HD rig makes it impossible for many users. Digi tries to counteract that with the 002 and such. Unfortunately, in my experience, the 002 is actually a step down from the 001, which I believe was solid and performed much more effectively, having a pci connection in lieu of a firewire connection. But these things get phased out too soon, support is dropped, etc. - this is exactly the kind of thing that makes people like me go ape****e. Anyone else on here move from 001 to 002 and get disappointed with the converters, the cpu load, and the dreadful headphone amp? I know the problem is solved by HD, which, for my new studio, I am in the process of working out with Digi right now, but there are many home or project-based folks who can't afford all the motorola's required to make a decent track.

Also, and most importantly, think about it: are there any industry standards anywhere, in any industry, that don't make you want to throttle somebody? PC computers, windows, etc.? Don't these things make people want to autodefenestrate from time to time?

best,
Old 17th May 2006
  #8
Gear Addict
 

digi002

I also agree that the Digi002 SUCKS.. I mean it sounds better than a digi001, but my old digi001 was soooo stable!

Like I said before, I love pro tools, I feel at home with it. but making people pay extra to have 48 tracks in LE? and the chips on the HD cards are sooo old, not that I care that they are old, but they charge sooo much for that cards!


Quote:
Originally Posted by benelli
I also see why people bash pro tools, but I've been on it for a decade and I still haven't switched, due mostly to the fact that pro tools can handle heavier edit densities and more tiny files all over the edit window than other DAW's I've tried. That, and the whole audiosuite 'file-based' processing thing has totally changed my workflow. I don't really treat PT as a 'tape machine' but more like a completely modular sampler - an open palette wherein sound can be manipulated, and rhythms and sonic landscapes can be easily created that don't repeat exactly, but change over time. This has not been possible, even in the latest forms, in Logic and some others because they freeze when they get to 6 tracks of tiny audio files sprayed across 6 tracks with automation. It's just more solid on that tip. It's so easy to program beats and such in the audio window, and process each little file individually, shape the kick drums one by one, have the snare sound change and get processed over time... that is impossible in Logic. I think Steinberg has a way to do this with relative ease now, as I know some other more 'electronic' users who are shredding in cubase or nuendo (can't remember which one).

The cost of an HD rig makes it impossible for many users. Digi tries to counteract that with the 002 and such. Unfortunately, in my experience, the 002 is actually a step down from the 001, which I believe was solid and performed much more effectively, having a pci connection in lieu of a firewire connection. But these things get phased out too soon, support is dropped, etc. - this is exactly the kind of thing that makes people like me go ape****e. Anyone else on here move from 001 to 002 and get disappointed with the converters, the cpu load, and the dreadful headphone amp? I know the problem is solved by HD, which, for my new studio, I am in the process of working out with Digi right now, but there are many home or project-based folks who can't afford all the motorola's required to make a decent track.

Also, and most importantly, think about it: are there any industry standards anywhere, in any industry, that don't make you want to throttle somebody? PC computers, windows, etc.? Don't these things make people want to autodefenestrate from time to time?

best,
Old 17th May 2006
  #9
Gear Addict
 
Billster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz
That said i have no problems transfering to P.tools for the final mix if i had to pull everything apart , as long as nobody wants me to actually program a beat in P.Toolsheh
I program beats almost every day using PT. It works fine for me. There´s something very straight forward in the midi implementation of PT since it sits right next to your audio tracks in the same window, which is kind of neat IMO.

I used to be a die hard Logic user (since 2.8 or something), but the guys at Emagic pissed me off, so I changed systems.

In the end it´s not the tools you use, but the music you make !

Regards,
Bill
Old 17th May 2006
  #10
Gear Addict
 
Billster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knerd
and the chips on the HD cards are sooo old, not that I care that they are old, but they charge sooo much for that cards!
True ! And they just raised upgrade prices, didn´t they ? Lower prices wouldn´t hurt at all since the technology of HD and Accel cards is not really special. And there´d be a lot less discussions like this one - the value for price ratio is what a lot of people find disturbing IMO.

Bill
Old 17th May 2006
  #11
Lives for gear
 
djui5's Avatar
 

I think cost is the biggest issue...
Old 17th May 2006
  #12
Lives for gear
 
octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon
Actually I'm in a completely different situation. We had 2 protools system, they sucked imho. And for that money, man, I thought that someone making some rude joke with us. Do not want the flame war begin! But we couldn't be happier with our native systems. We usually record live bands 32-48 track at once, so you were wrong when you couldn't imagine to record that few tracks with native. I won't say that all digi system is wrong, I just think there are much better solutions out there.
Regards Tamas Dragon
Ehrm, well a lot of the plugins I use are not available for native- Eventide, McDSP, Access Virus, Echoboy, Bombfactory- none of these are available for native, except the virus being a powercore plugin.

I still maintain several native rigs- I have Logic & DP use them on different systems.
I use different systems for different jobs- all my breaks material is done in logic and transferred to PT to mix.
Tab to transients, Beat detective, groups- there are a lot of operational issues within protools that make more sense- and that is from me, a previously die hard logic user (for a decade, no less).

If you are getting great performace from your native rig then cool- what are you using- I am always open to new ideas- but having a lot of money invested in various DAW's when I am tracking a band, editing the perfomraces and mixing them, I get it doen in Protools with a minimum of fuss a great deal of stability and get through it quicker and onto the next project. This is why PT, in my view, is the market leader.

It has issues, of course- the HUI impleimentation for Mackie control is dreadful, no master fader support- but I can live with that, to a degree.

JR
Old 17th May 2006
  #13
Lives for gear
 
mixerguy's Avatar
considering what native processing can do these days (other than NO LATENCY for going out to analog and back in on inserts). it is overpriced.

Old 18th May 2006
  #14
Lives for gear
 
nikki-k's Avatar
 

I'm sorry, but the only "over-priced" part to me is if one opts for a lower DSP solution. Opt for higher on either, and the costs slowly even out. However, stick to simply grabbing an HD1 PT system, and the cost difference is pretty wickedly unbalanced...go HD3 and go similarly powered for native (plus UAD and PoCo), and it evens out with the native system one would *have* to build.

In another year, similarly powering native will be significantly less for DSP power comparisons. But, once again, PT TDM(HD) is NOT simply a sequencer. PARIS, Pyramix, etc are the same: complete DAW/Mixer enviornment.

I really wish DIgi would do a version of PT HD that is software only. Make it the same pricing scheme as Steiny does with Nuendo and Cubase (and it's lesser priced siblings). THEN we would have a level field of comparison IMO. I also think THIS would be what would draw some back in. Some of us prefer working in the PT enviornment, but some have simply tired of being "strong-armed" into using their hardware to use the software, or leave town. I have come close, but I just cannot find that magic path to discover the workflow that would allow me to use another app over PT HD full time.
Old 18th May 2006
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Improv's Avatar
 

I champion the native effort every day, but I cannot deny the power of an HD system. Native just isn't there yet.

I regularly record 24+ tracks of 24/96 audio with 1 or 2 insert effects per channel including multiple inline reverb instances. I have up to 12 aux sends set up for individual cue mixes, and I'm bussing and printing a rough mix with some mild sweetening. All this and no one gets more than 96 samples of delay (that's 1 ms) in their cans and the whole thing never even blinks. With seemingly endless DSP, I don't even bother with reverb on sends anymore... everything gets its own verb! These are things you have to think about, contend with, and work around in native land (if there is a workaround). With DSP, You pay for the luxury of this stuff just working every time.

Digi hating... company hating in general...
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump