The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
So what's up with the WTB posts?
Old 6th May 2006
  #1
Moderator emeritus
 

So what's up with the WTB posts?

Most of what y'all are asking for is available from the usual channels; if you want to buy a Great River, you can call Dan Kennedy (or one of his retailers), for a 192, why not try one of the Digidesign dealers? Dor Daking stuff, I think it's even a toll free number for Las Vegas Pro Audio... I can understand asking about a KM84 or an LA4 (though I see them regularly on the vintage dealers' pages, but a quick trip through Google will turn a bunch of them up.

Or are ya'll essentially saying "I want an x, but I think that it's not worth the money that they're asking." You know, if you don't support the dealers (and the manufacturers), they won't be here long. And THEN, those sorts of posts will have real meaning.

Hey,. it's the moan zone...
Old 6th May 2006
  #2
Lives for gear
 
artbeat77's Avatar
 

Maybe we should write a software program called "Should I buy?" There could be 4 blanks for the end user to fill in: budget, needs, actual needs, and "Stop Kidding Yourself" Needs. Then the software will make a recommendation: "Stop wasting my time." Or even better, we could write a code that would just flash to the Blue Screen of Death.

Of course, we would see the obligatory, "Should I buy 'Should I buy?'?" thread.
Old 6th May 2006
  #3
Lives for gear
 
ben_allison's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin
Most of what y'all are asking for is available from the usual channels;
Well, feel free to toss me some money so I can pay full retail.

I'm 24 and newly married. I'm paying off school loans.

Does that mean I don't deserve to make music?

I have to stretch my dollar as far as it will go.

You ever bought a used car? A house someone else had already lived in? Ever hit up a garage sale or two?

I'll let the people with money to spend support the makers of the gear. Until I'm one, I'll be biting and clawing my way through.
Old 6th May 2006
  #4
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

I often buy stuff to try and I sell it if I don't like it or find that I like something else better. If I buy right, I can often get out with no loss. Not the case if I buy new at retail.
Old 6th May 2006
  #5
Lives for gear
 
ben_allison's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin
are ya'll essentially saying "I want an x, but I think that it's not worth the money that they're asking
I was thinking about this after I posted, and realized, one factor for me is I don't.

An aluminum box with some capacitors, a magnet with some wire wrapped around it, and a few easily mass-produced IC's...because of supply/demand, the prices are inflated.

Considering what else can be bought for $2000-4000, I find pro audio gear to be rather imbalanced, simply because it's a niche...

I just have a problem with the whole thing -- either the money goes into my mouth and my family's mouths, or it ends up as something replacable and ultimately unimportant, on a rack.
Old 6th May 2006
  #6
Gear Guru
 

A healthy used market is good for the manufacturers in the long run.
Old 6th May 2006
  #7
Lives for gear
 
StuartMac's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_allison
I was thinking about this after I posted, and realized, one factor for me is I don't.

An aluminum box with some capacitors, a magnet with some wire wrapped around it, and a few easily mass-produced IC's...because of supply/demand, the prices are inflated.

Considering what else can be bought for $2000-4000, I find pro audio gear to be rather imbalanced, simply because it's a nieche...

I just have a problem with the whole thing -- either the money goes into my mouth and my family's mouths, or it ends up as something replacable and ultimately unimportant, on a rack.
Umm, ever heard of R+D? If it's so easy design and build your own gear, no?
Old 6th May 2006
  #8
Lives for gear
 
robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_allison
I was thinking about this after I posted, and realized, one factor for me is I don't.

An aluminum box with some capacitors, a magnet with some wire wrapped around it, and a few easily mass-produced IC's...because of supply/demand, the prices are inflated.

Considering what else can be bought for $2000-4000, I find pro audio gear to be rather imbalanced, simply because it's a nieche...

I just have a problem with the whole thing -- either the money goes into my mouth and my family's mouths, or it ends up as something replacable and ultimately unimportant, on a rack.

Ahh, to be young again . . . . I think you are over simplifying things quite a bit. You're forgetting overhead like marketing, employees, leases or mortgages, manufacturing equipment, shipping costs, dealer markup's, R&D, and a whole lot more. I personally know a few of the boutique manufacturers and none of them are living high on the hog.

It's kind of liike the argument that CD's should be cheaper because blank CD's only cost $.14 - $.35. Well, it takes a lot more than the raw parts to deliver a product to the public.
Old 6th May 2006
  #9
Lives for gear
 
ben_allison's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robmix
I think you are over simplifying things quite a bit.
I understand the economics behind gear. I know a stork just doesn't drop it off on my doorstep

I'm saying as far as my priorities go, being able to make rent, buy groceries, and have a beer with friends every now and then rates higher than "buying gear new" because that's what men do.

I really believe that there are enough buyers within the niche to support it. And actually, one could argue that nothing is hurt. Think about it this way:

Scenario 1) X amount of "pro" engineers and hobbyists with disposable income buy new.

Scenario 2) X amount of "pro" engineers and hobbyists with disposable income still buy new, and people with hardly any money to spare buy 2nd hand gear.

I don't think a used market necessarily has to compromise the financial stability or gear makers, and can help by showing people that certain gear is worth investing in.

And if we look at is investments, the argument "always try to buy new" breaks down, because the logical end is that you can't sell your used gear (since, real men are buying it new). So, you end up with a locker full of gear you bought new, tried for a few months, and just don't have a use for it. So because of your principles, money is locked up in items that are not being used. That is a poor investment strategy -- that is, unless you can sell to someone willing to buy used.

I never said gear manufacturers were rich. They're trying to survive, just like me. And it's not that I think anyone is particularly greedy. I'm just saying that in terms of my economy, a box of parts isn't worth $2000 if I can find one for half that price. Let's not kid ourselves. We live in a capitalist world, and its mantra is thus:

Get the most you can for the least amount of money.

Check the label on the back of your shirt. We're all billboards for the "I want the world and want to spend as little as possible for it" mentality.
Old 7th May 2006
  #10
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_allison
Well, feel free to toss me some money so I can pay full retail.

What dealer charges full retail?



Quote:
Does that mean I don't deserve to make music?

It doesn't take a high end piece of gear to make music. If you are using a high end piece of gear in your situation it's a luxury. You can make music with Mackie and Shure, they are commodities and that's what you should be using.

So the answer to your question is NO. It means that you should either buy used or a lower end piece of gear. A Great River is worth every penny they ask for it - if the dealers only 'break even' then they stop recommending the product. Then the manufacturers sell much less which means they only break even or less. And when that happens its time to close the doors and no more Great River (or whoever). It's economics 101.


Quote:
I have to stretch my dollar as far as it will go.

So does industry in general, and this is exactly what's wrong with America (and the west) in general these days. You don't drive a Porsche on Hyundai prices.
Old 7th May 2006
  #11
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_allison
An aluminum box with some capacitors, a magnet with some wire wrapped around it, and a few easily mass-produced IC's...because of supply/demand, the prices are inflated.
Considering what else can be bought for $2000-4000, I find pro audio gear to be rather imbalanced, simply because it's a niche...
Feel free to invest in Behringer gear, it'll save you big bucks that you'll be able to spend on more essential things like Windows computers, mobile phones or that new 'home theater' surround system for your living room.......

The question is not why Pro Audio gear is 'so expensive' but rather why folks are paying these amounts while much cheaper options (as in cheap) are available like say the aformentioned Behringer stuff.

You get what you pay for, period.
Old 7th May 2006
  #12
Lives for gear
 
DontLetMeDrown's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin
Most of what y'all are asking for is available from the usual channels; if you want to buy a Great River, you can call Dan Kennedy (or one of his retailers), for a 192, why not try one of the Digidesign dealers? Dor Daking stuff, I think it's even a toll free number for Las Vegas Pro Audio... I can understand asking about a KM84 or an LA4 (though I see them regularly on the vintage dealers' pages, but a quick trip through Google will turn a bunch of them up.

Or are ya'll essentially saying "I want an x, but I think that it's not worth the money that they're asking." You know, if you don't support the dealers (and the manufacturers), they won't be here long. And THEN, those sorts of posts will have real meaning.

Hey,. it's the moan zone...
I think it's because the people posting want OPINIONS. What kind of opinion do you get if you call a dealer or retailer? They only care about selling, so of course they will tell you, "Yeah, that unit is great-- How will you be paying?" The people posting want the opinions of other engineers. I'm sure the opinion of an enginner who has used specific equipment will be much more realistic than that of a dealer.
Old 7th May 2006
  #13
Lives for gear
 
ben_allison's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker
Feel free to invest in Behringer gear.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by nethereyes
It doesn't take a high end piece of gear to make music. If you are using a high end piece of gear in your situation it's a luxury...It means that you should either buy used or a lower end piece of gear. A Great River is worth every penny they ask for it.
The thing is, I take my artform seriously. I don't want to compromise quality, and shouldn't have to. So, I wait until I find a decent piece at a good used price. I almost seldom buy new anymore.

Behringer is not an option, as the gear would severely compromise the quality of what I want to do.

My only point is that I can't justify paying for new gear when I can find the same piece for much less used, and still have money left over to pay my bills.

I agree that a Great River is worth every penny, and it is actually one of the few pieces I've almost paid full for (still don't have one, and I may yet). But I'm at a place in my life where I really need to keep as many of my pennies as possible, and there are avenues open that allow me to do that and still buy quality gear.
Old 7th May 2006
  #14
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown
I think it's because the people posting want OPINIONS. What kind of opinion do you get if you call a dealer or retailer? They only care about selling, so of course they will tell you, "Yeah, that unit is great-- How will you be paying?" The people posting want the opinions of other engineers. I'm sure the opinion of an enginner who has used specific equipment will be much more realistic than that of a dealer.
I see that lots of folks want opinions - what I was asking about were the great increase in 'WTB' posts in the last few months.
Old 8th May 2006
  #15
Lives for gear
 

The few times I've listed WTB is because I had used or owned a particular piece, knew it worked great for me, and knew that lots of folks often sold these items cheaply because:

A. They bought them when they were the hot topic du jour, then found they weren't the magic solution after all

or 2. They never took the time to figure out how to use them, or the rest of their system didn't match up

or iii. They moved on or got out or upgraded/downgraded, etc.

So I might go fishing just to see if someone has one laying around but hasn't advertised. He now gets to spend the money on more gear, I get a good price.

But on my latest try I ended up just buying new ones anyway.

Steve
Old 8th May 2006
  #16
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_allison
My only point is that I can't justify paying for new gear when I can find the same piece for much less used, and still have money left over to pay my bills.
I invest in good gear to get more work and deliver better quality, thus being able to 'pay the bills' eventually.

I'm not slagging you, it's just that I fail to see your point. Why shouldn't you buy used gear? We all do and I certainly was able to score the 'unbelievable' deal once in a while.

But more often than not, great gear keeps will keep its value, that's why you won't find say a good 1176 for less than what a reissue will cost. (Unless it's a scam).

And these days, there is absolutely no reason to complain. Think what even a half-decent setup would have costed you back in the analog days. Getting serious about it meant making a serious investment, and while technology surely has made some gear much more affordable, it's the more affordable gear like DAWs, computers,etc that will lose its value the fastest.
Old 8th May 2006
  #17
Lives for gear
 
ben_allison's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker
it's just that I fail to see your point.
My point? I really thought it was clear...

If i can buy "X Preamp" for $2000 new, or find it for $1500 or less used, I'll go that route.

If you want to do a quality job, you buy quality tools. But if Ace is selling a Rigid table saw for $75 less than Home Depot, who on earth wouldn't take the better deal? And if one came up in the classified ads for $150 less in new condition, would no one take that deal either?

But if there is no deal to be found anywhere, and I still need that tool to do the job, I have no choice but to scrimp and save to get it. If a piece of gear just does not depreciate, and sells for practically the same new or used, then I'll horde my pennies until I can afford it.

My only real point is if there's an option to pay less for the same piece of gear, I'll do it.
Old 8th May 2006
  #18
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_allison
If i can buy "X Preamp" for $2000 new, or find it for $1500 or less used, I'll go that route.
Nothing wrong with that. But what I totally dig about dealers like Mercenary or Vintage King is the service they provide. This will often save you big bucks in the long run.

Buying a Little Lab IBP Jr. 'over the pond', realizing that the power supply works but hums like a mother and having the dealer send me a replacement power supply WITHOUT me having to return the faulty one due to shipping costs, now that's great service! Vintage King this this and it's only one example of the always-great service I got from them.

I had similar good experiences with Mercenary and if you're talking abut brands like Chandler, Little Labs and quite a few others, remember that THEIR service/customer care is also part of the deal.

I went thru enough BS with some 'Superstores' that I value the service part tremenduosly high.
Old 8th May 2006
  #19
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker
Nothing wrong with that. But what I totally dig about dealers like Mercenary or Vintage King is the service they provide. This will often save you big bucks in the long run.
I don't think that Ben believes in 'service'; after all, he can get unbiased answers to any questions he might have on Gear Slutz, right?
Old 8th May 2006
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Curtis Franklin's Avatar
 

An owner that purchases new also puchases support from the manufacturer or the and/or the dealer from whom they purchased it from.

I prefer to be left to my own devices if something should go awry and not pay a premium. Also, I think it is good to let people know what I am in the market for so that they can sell it IF DESIRED...

I do support my dealer. I usually call them first to see what their price is. If it is competive with used (ie the gear holds its value on the used market well), I will buy from them.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump