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ReverbNation. LOL.
Old 10th January 2012
  #1
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ewegogetemtiger's Avatar
ReverbNation. LOL.

Half serious half comedy piece on climbing the charts at ReverbNation.

Psychopompos: How To Climb the Reverb Nation Charts
Old 10th January 2012
  #2
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kennybro's Avatar
Autological article.
Old 11th January 2012
  #3
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Freematik's Avatar
 

ReverbNation's charts are a joke. Look at the top ten artists in most areas, and these are usually complete no-names, that are just good at spamming people... the same types of bands that had tons of "friends" on myspace by using friendblaster, but no one has heard of them.

ReverbNation tries to get you to buy add-on products to improve your "chart position"... it is all a setup to get you to spend money to be "#1", even though that chart position is completely useless and sad...

That being said I am #106 in San Jose WOOOO HOOOO!!!!

-Tom
Old 11th January 2012
  #4
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AllAboutTone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by freematik View Post
reverbnation's charts are a joke. Look at the top ten artists in most areas, and these are usually complete no-names, that are just good at spamming people... The same types of bands that had tons of "friends" on myspace by using friendblaster, but no one has heard of them.

Reverbnation tries to get you to buy add-on products to improve your "chart position"... It is all a setup to get you to spend money to be "#1", even though that chart position is completely useless and sad...

That being said i am #106 in san jose woooo hoooo!!!!

-tom
prue junk for real.
Old 12th January 2012
  #5
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Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freematik View Post
ReverbNation tries to get you to buy add-on products to improve your "chart position"... it is all a setup to get you to spend money to be "#1", even though that chart position is completely useless and sad...
... in the days before digital distribution the spending for "chart position" was called "product promotion" which has been practiced by every label that ever released an artist at any time... as these bands you've never heard of are for all intents and purposes their own "indie label" they're just doing whatever they can to promote their product.

As they promote... guess what - they sell more... which leads to better "chart position". Think about it - after you see the names of these artists on the RevebNation charts - you've heard of them [even if you haven't heard them]. If it weren't for a "product promotion" campaign... you'd have never heard of Led Zeppelin, or Boston, or Marvin Gaye. If it there had been a proper "product promotion" campaign you would have heard of "Farrenheit", "Duke and the Drivers" or the "John Eddy Band".

Nothing is really different... only the scale is smaller... and the "grand prize" a fair measure less lucrative

Peace
Old 13th January 2012
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
... in the days before digital distribution the spending for "chart position" was called "product promotion" which has been practiced by every label that ever released an artist at any time... as these bands you've never heard of are for all intents and purposes their own "indie label" they're just doing whatever they can to promote their product.

As they promote... guess what - they sell more... which leads to better "chart position". Think about it - after you see the names of these artists on the RevebNation charts - you've heard of them [even if you haven't heard them]. If it weren't for a "product promotion" campaign... you'd have never heard of Led Zeppelin, or Boston, or Marvin Gaye. If it there had been a proper "product promotion" campaign you would have heard of "Farrenheit", "Duke and the Drivers" or the "John Eddy Band".

Nothing is really different... only the scale is smaller... and the "grand prize" a fair measure less lucrative

Peace
Fletcher, first of all it was great to meet you years ago at some random tradeshow, you are a baddass... but I gotta disagree what you are saying.. no this isn't the "same game" on a smaller scale... what Reverbnation does is called "selling the dream"... and the VAST majority of these bands at #1 aren't selling S**T!!!!

They get to this #1 position by playing the game of adding EVERYONE they can, and they just based on sheer #'s, and maybe by paying a little bit, they get the chart position... but Reverbnation is not radio, Fletcher, the difference is that fans don't listen to Reverbnation... the only people really on Reverbnation are other bands... seriously...

I get the philosophy of "paying your way"... trust me... the rap labels I do most of my work for all have publicists, spend money on radio, tours, etc. BUT REVERBNATION IS NOT AN AVENUE, IT IS A CASH GRAB, making money off people with the exact sentiment you have... but the people don't realize they are putting the money in the wrong spot, they need to put it into SEO, targetted ads, banners, in other words, THINGS THAT ACTUALLY WORK..
Old 13th January 2012
  #7
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scruffydog's Avatar
reverbnation makes it possible for people with networking skills and facebook friends to go to the top positions....
it really is a bull**** chart....
there must be a better way?
i could give a very expllicit example but why bother...
fletcher...if you are an ambitious and driven political type networker...you could easily get to No 1 in the smaller charts on reveb nation...
under a pen name obviously.
Old 15th January 2012
  #8
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freematik View Post
Fletcher, first of all it was great to meet you years ago at some random tradeshow, you are a baddass... but I gotta disagree what you are saying.. no this isn't the "same game" on a smaller scale... what Reverbnation does is called "selling the dream"... and the VAST majority of these bands at #1 aren't selling S**T!!!!
Same thing that SeagramsVivendiWarner does - they sell the dream. First they sell it to an artist they think they can exploit - then they do their level best to exploit that artist via the various networks they've created. I remember being on an artist's bus I was working for [long and unrelated story - I normally rode on the crew bus] when we stopped for food on a long drive... the tour manager called into the band office during the stop and when we got back on the bus he said with some degree of pride "we've got the number 1 record in Saint Louis". Not much different - only its a bit larger scale.

Quote:
They get to this #1 position by playing the game of adding EVERYONE they can, and they just based on sheer #'s, and maybe by paying a little bit, they get the chart position... but Reverbnation is not radio, Fletcher, the difference is that fans don't listen to Reverbnation... the only people really on Reverbnation are other bands... seriously...
What you're saying is that "other bands" are making these bands go to the #1 chart position. Interestingly - one of my daughters will send me a link from time to time to a band she's heard on ReverbNation that she thinks I might like. She isn't in a band, but she does love music. I mean what kid gets her Dad vinyl records as a holiday present - and what kid grins from ear to ear when she unwraps a "Captain Beefhart" original pressing -- bloody few, but they're out there and that's really who the audience is. The hope is that they tell two friends who tell two other friends and the next thing ya know... that #1 ReverbNation band is attracting SeagramsVivendiWarner to make a mass exploitation contract.

These days "A&R" is the street. The few record weasels I know that are still in the game wait to see what sells on a regional level before suggesting they "invest" in them. This **** isn't new... let's not forget that Nirvana was purchased from Sub-Pop Records... why? because they were moving product is why... and [I forget the name of the major] saw that the product was good and the seed had been sewn. They bought them, plugged the **** out them on MTV [I think that was the during the last 2-3 weeks when MTV still played music] and the rest is history.

Same **** with RN... the new and smaller - far more diversified promotion tool you [as an artist] have to work the **** out of to try to get two friends to tell two other friends who will hopefully tell a few more friends [lather, rinse, repeat until an "underground sensation" begins to occur].

Quote:
I get the philosophy of "paying your way"... trust me... the rap labels I do most of my work for all have publicists, spend money on radio, tours, etc. BUT REVERBNATION IS NOT AN AVENUE, IT IS A CASH GRAB, making money off people with the exact sentiment you have... but the people don't realize they are putting the money in the wrong spot, they need to put it into SEO, targetted ads, banners, in other words, THINGS THAT ACTUALLY WORK..
OK - let's look at your premise - SEO, great thing... absolutely necessary to optimize at every turn... targeted ads, also a great thing - who do you target? Banners - where do you put them? How much do you have to pay for them?

It seems to me that ReverbNation gives you some form of platform to jump off and start to build your promotion as an artist. Its merely a vehicle to help all your other efforts start to take hold. They're not doing the work for you, but they do give you an avenue to get your work out to the world... at least from what I've seen... I could certainly be wrong.

When CD Baby started I thought it was a great idea. I was working with artists who couldn't get their stuff in stores... this was an avenue. When I worked for TuneCore.com it was a similar thing - a way to get your product onto iTunes when you [a guy sitting in his house] couldn't.

The rest - promotions, building "street teams", getting the word on the street that you even exist was still your problem - it seems to me that while RN is far from perfect it at least gives you avenues to start. The ability to get some kind of word out via their mailing lists - the ability to build some kind of website you can point folks to... "ReverbRadio" - kind of a way unsigned Pandora for some kind of exposure [though I REALLY wish there was a way [or a way I could find] that could get more "genre" specific - or "artists like ______" like Pandora].

Some day some one is going to come out with a really excellent solution to all of our collective promotion problems so our music can be heard by the right audience... in the meanwhile each imperfect stepping stone is an avenue toward getting to that ultimate solution.

We had "MySpace" for a minute which was about "networking" and gaining "adds" [not ads, but adds]... which went more general into Facebook which is also highly flawed... but better than MySpace... now there's Google's "circles" thing [which in my reality is about as useful as "LinkedIn" - in other words a waste of fvcking time that is more about you feeling good about your own personal little profile than any kind of actual "networking" thing... though it is possible to find some people you don't know but would like to try to gain access to... sorry, I have digressed to a point of near irrelevance].

Peace
Old 15th January 2012
  #9
Registered User
 

ReverbNation is just another (basically free) tool that musicians have at their disposal. Choose to use it and gain more web presence, or choose not to and honestly, it's probably not going to have any negative effect.

As far as ego stroking and charts goes, whatever. If you're not out there in the trenches, getting dirty, sleeping in your car, playing gigs, then maybe (just maybe) you still have an ego to stroke. Good for you.

As for the rest of us, scraping it out in the real world, our egos have long been traded in for the reality of just trying to get gigs and make people happy.

You do realize we are in a service industry, right? (somewhere between waiter and masseuse). I'm sure ReverbNation fits in there somewhere as well.

ps- They do have some cool touring (map and date based) web plugins.
Old 15th January 2012
  #10
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@ Fletcher- Totally agree with your perspective... the one thing is that I don't think Reverbation's charts are a good tool to measure.... anything.... the metrics they are using are phony

From my experience I regularly see artists in the post-#100 position playing major club shows, selling CD's, etc. and I've also seen artists in the "top ten" position for cities that are non-existent outside of Reverbnation.

The problem is Reverbnation weighs heavily on metrics that do not represent actual popularity. And the system allows you to basically buy (or for the unemployed people, spam) your way up, so I see the top artists all the time that are most likely trust fund kids or meth heads that can spam 20 hours a day....

But yeah to some extent we all are guilty of selling the dream
Old 28th January 2013
  #11
Here for the gear
 

Both

I agree with both assessments. I have been featured on the Reverbnation home page and immediately got about 200 new "fans", but also about lots of new emails for my mailing list. My #32 chart position (Electronically, Brooklyn NY) I think keeps me in the forefront of awareness but I don't put much stock in whether its actually doing anything significant for me in terms of sales and such.

Bookers and festival promoters don't care about your Reverbnation numbers, and while I have submitted to dozens of their "opportunities" in two years I've gotten exactly zero bites. I do get lots of "fan" follows from other bands and honestly most of them are awful. I will fan back to be polite. But I consistently get messages and comments from bands there who say how much they love my music, and they don't ask for anything in return. Bands are also people and music lovers. If you're good you CAN use reverbnation to grow your fan base somewhat, also maybe for networking gigs with other bands. But I'm sure chart position is nothing to get too excited about. Is it worth it? The tools are handy too I suppose. I'd say Reverbnation is of nominal value and I wouldn't spend too much time "working" it
Old 22nd April 2013
  #12
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hm - I guess in the end it is better to concentrate on music to grow a solid base of listeners, who are appreciating your work... I have included my videos on the RVN page as well.

always good to offer a FREE mp3 download (I offer two tunes on my ReverbNation page via a different setup).

philipp

RVN page: Philipp Mann Music, Lyrics, Songs, and Videos
Old 18th September 2013
  #13
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not so bad

My band recently got bumped up to #7 for portland folk charts. we just released a record and and we haven't paid a dime on RN. I also see that the top 5 bands on our charts are in my opinion are some of the most popular folk acts in town. I'm not sure if they are paying there way to the top or how thats really possible... but it really does reflect the crowds they are getting to their shows. I think RN is a tool like any other to promote your band. Its a small niche community for musicians to showcase their band or music, maybe its flooded with mostly other musicians but thats okay! It has helped us book shows with other bands on there and in turn met their fans! It has been helpful for us and we are selling more CDs and getting a lot more fans and plays since we have been at number 7. I would tell any artist that the more you do in the digital world to promote your music, the better. It doesn't mean you have to spend a ton of money either... Just put out good music and put time and effort into any display that you use to promote it!

ps... reverbnation.com/gooseandfox : )
Old 18th September 2013
  #14
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Aye.. the "no-name" charts are just as BS as the "names" charts with indeed the difference of the prize money.. however getting in the "real" charts is also a whole lot more costly than getting into reverbnations charts.

I also remember that a few decades ago when releasing a single one of the mo's was to buy a ****load of them by the company or artist or set up through others so the single would hit the charts.

anybody got a figure of the cost of a promotion campaign for a number one billboard act? (posters, billboards, tv-spots, radio spots, magazines etc..)

And Portland makes a good point, in the world of free it is quite possible that some of those bands are on those charts because the community likes them.
Old 19th February 2018
  #15
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Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freematik View Post
@ Fletcher- Totally agree with your perspective... the one thing is that I don't think Reverbation's charts are a good tool to measure.... anything.... the metrics they are using are phony

From my experience I regularly see artists in the post-#100 position playing major club shows, selling CD's, etc. and I've also seen artists in the "top ten" position for cities that are non-existent outside of Reverbnation.

The problem is Reverbnation weighs heavily on metrics that do not represent actual popularity. And the system allows you to basically buy (or for the unemployed people, spam) your way up, so I see the top artists all the time that are most likely trust fund kids or meth heads that can spam 20 hours a day....

But yeah to some extent we all are guilty of selling the dream
Hello, I'm MrEzDoezit from Kansas City, I went to the top of the charts by simply uploading my songs. I have paid absolutely no money and I don't Spam. I send no emails. You generalized everyone but everyone is different and has a different story. I'm not even in this for money. I'm in it for the love of it. I make all my own beats write all my own songs. Basically one man show. 5 yrs and I own Groundup816productions. Moving up on my sounds alone. No money to promote and I don't even like spam. Just saying. That's my story.
Old 20th February 2018
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEzDoezit View Post
Hello, I'm MrEzDoezit from Kansas City, I went to the top of the charts by simply uploading my songs. I have paid absolutely no money and I don't Spam. I send no emails. You generalized everyone but everyone is different and has a different story. I'm not even in this for money. I'm in it for the love of it. I make all my own beats write all my own songs. Basically one man show. 5 yrs and I own Groundup816productions. Moving up on my sounds alone. No money to promote and I don't even like spam. Just saying. That's my story.
So I've been in the top 10 for austin jazz bands and got exactly one gig from having done so. Which, hey, I always enjoy a gig, and their wine was excellent, but it's just an ego trip.

Part of what likely put you up there was promoting the link on social media, not Reverbnation. When I was making top 10 positions, it was because I was driving my facebook traffic to that page. Now I point everyone to my bandcamp where people may actually buy a CD...
Old 21st February 2018
  #17
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I'm pretty sure all the charts are rigged these days, kind of like they have always been. Payola and now some kind of bot slave thing to do the dirty work. Best not to pay attention to such things.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #18
I'd kind of forgotten what was up with my ReverbNation pages. (At the very beginning, I liked it because, IIRC, you could put up higher rez files, though that may have only been 192kbps but it sure beats 128.)

So I just visited one of them with the intent of logging in and checking whatever stats there were there. But then I saw this past post from myself on my page there:

LOL - We are now # 9 on the ReverbNation Folk charts for Long Beach, CA. TK Major | ReverbNation ... on the basis of ZERO new plays
Kind of a 'nuff said, I think.

(Still, that's not to suggest that other people aren't connecting with real fans there and not just 'swapping' plays to boost counts and such. But I stopped being active at RN because I got tired of the endless barrage of kind of slimey artist spam. 'You have great tunes. Check out my band at...' You know the drill. I've been putting my music up on music/social media sites since the old Mp3.com, 20 years ago. Been around that block a thousand times.)
Old 23rd February 2018
  #19
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff spicoli View Post
hands down MySpace was the best.
I miss MySpace!
Old 23rd February 2018
  #20
I was never much of a fan of MySpace, myself, but it's worth noting that it's still there.

And it actually gets about 50 million unique visitors a month (according to Wikipedia).
Old 23rd February 2018
  #21
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Yeah, I don't know who the 50 million are (it actually went away, and then someone brought it back). But nobody really bothers with it anymore.
Old 23rd February 2018
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I've been putting my music up on music/social media sites since the old Mp3.com, 20 years ago. Been around that block a thousand times.)
OH MAN MP3.com before Cnet bought them was great.

That's when I first became aware of Gretchen Lieberum:


And Tom Fox


I went to the top of the "jump blues" charts with my terrible boombox-to-boombox overdub recordings. God I miss that place. I made 2 albums during that era and they were the only place that would burn you a CD and print the cover art and sell it on your behalf. They were the first on demand duplicator that I can remember.
Old 23rd February 2018
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by donsolo View Post
OH MAN MP3.com before Cnet bought them was great.

That's when I first became aware of Gretchen Lieberum:
[vid]

And Tom Fox
[vid]

I went to the top of the "jump blues" charts with my terrible boombox-to-boombox overdub recordings. God I miss that place. I made 2 albums during that era and they were the only place that would burn you a CD and print the cover art and sell it on your behalf. They were the first on demand duplicator that I can remember.
Yep.

For those who weren't there, let me say it could be vexing, for sure, but it was a load of fun -- and might have really become a true music-centric social media hub [even with its primitive in-house BB system] if their misguided [or at least deeply flawed] initiative to get into the 'music locker' business hadn't gotten slammed with a ~$300M summary judgement* by a group of labels (including Universal, who ended up buying what was left of the company's holdings and shut down the indie music uploading that had made the place what it was so they could 'pivot' to hyping their own conventionally released physical product. A move possibly even dumber, in retrospect, than Michael Robertson's ill-fated music locker that sunk the original enterprise.)

* A summary judgment is essentially where a case is so 'open and shut' and determined by extant law and/or judicial ruling that there is no point in hearing any arguments; indeed, that's exactly what the judge did in the Mp3.com music locker lawsuit, shutting out any argument and delivering the judgment to the labels.


Still, a lot of us had a lot of fun there, many of us getting our first real taste of what it would be like to reach audiences beyond our local audiences, friends, and followers. I liked it. (Early on Robertson himself contacted me and suggested I move one of my songs from whatever genre I'd initially berthed it in into the big Alternative General genre and he'd give it a Song of the Day front page placement; it ended up as #3 and #4 for a week (reaching #26 on the overall site chart).

Later, as the once-cool-but-then-corrupted Payment-for-Play (PFP) program deteriorated into endless rounds of 'play trades' (so-called 'gamers' would offer '10 plays' for one, then 20... 'buying' fake plays with fake plays), I spent a Saturday night at home writing and recording a total throwaway song about the PFP meltdown...

Ah... the good old days.


PS... I wonder what some of our old faves like FT and Marissa M are doing these days?
Old 25th February 2018
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff spicoli View Post
When they "upgraded" the site they broke everything and pissed everyone off to point of leaving. All of the design, editing, tweaks, links, media, stats etc... POOF! gone overnight. They broke their own site beyond repair and as of 5 minutes ago it still doesn't fully load or function properly.

I know so many people that kick started their careers via that site. Unrestricted easy custom user design, graphics, bio, music, media, links, sales, promotions, record deals, shows, collaborations, public and private messaging.. if you had the skills and quality content, you could so fast track your career. Sadly, nothing even comes close today. That site was great for all things music!

Today it has 50 million unique visitors a month?! Now that is some seriously fabricated BS.
Yeah... sounds a bit high. But don't forget FB is said to have 2 billion accounts used monthly. • Number of Facebook users worldwide 2008-2017 | Statistic


But... yeah... that Wikipedia number turns out to be way behind the times.

In July 2015, they had just under 18M active visitors. But that was down from 25M visitors just 3 months before.

• Myspace: unique U.S. visitors 2015 | Statistic


And, probably not surprisingly, Myspace isn't even a blip on this chart of what sosh media teen users use.

• U.S. teens: most popular social media apps 2017 | Statista
Old 9th March 2018
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I miss MySpace!
..sigh.. I miss myspace too >.<
Old 9th March 2018
  #26
i was wondering if Reverbnation was or would become the next thing for music/musicians but this thread confirmed not.
Old 4th August 2019
  #27
Here for the gear
 

I am currently #6 on the ReverbNation charts in all genres worldwide.

It has taken me almost ten years to get there.

No, I did not pay ReverbNation to put me there. I pay only for a monthly subscription and that is it. And for that subscription I get a website they made for me and they allow me to release a few albums a year. There are a few other really nice perks.

I believe when you buy ads they actually freeze your place on the charts so the ad buy will not unfairly influence the charts. So you cannot buy your way to the top.

I do not spam people with my music that does not work at all.

What does work? Well it takes being there for ten years to learn that.

It takes having a large presence on all the social networks, it takes having a lot of songs that you have worked to make. It takes constantly communicating with your fans every day so they check back in. It takes having a personality so it is not only about music but about the whole artist.

A lot of people are weary about putting "all" of their music on ReverbNation and that is why most artists don't make it high on the charts.

Because they are profit driven and not fan driven. If you cannot get fortune well you might consider settling for fame instead.

So their music languishes in obscurity because they only upload one to three songs.

There may be artists who have better music than me but they have only one song there and once people have heard that song well, it is old hat. It takes thousands of listens... And people who are already famous do not put their songs there free to stream. They generally only care about money...

Reverbnation is about exposure of your music not necessarily about selling your music. They do sell music and I have sold music there but I have picked up a lot of fans there and it is a music "community".

The proprietary algorithm that ReverbNation uses is quite complex.

The algorithm takes many factors into consideration and so it takes being "everything" and most artists do not put the effort into several vital areas.

It is not just about having a few good songs. If that is the case you may get picked up by a label who finds you on ReverbNation and if you have a huge following well you really do not need a label then.

Most labels are looking for young very talented people who can also pay for their services.

If you are not in that demographic then you have to work like hell to place on the charts and frankly 90% of most musicians are lazy and have so many hangups and making their own music is full of obstacle that many musicians give up.

You have to sometimes play all the instruments in your songs, write and compose a ton of them, sing really well, learn DAWs, computers, music fundamentals, theory and record and master, spend an enormous amount of time editing your music. Your music has to really be good or you need to have a personality that is so magnetic that people don't really care that your music is not that refined.

You have to bring many big things to the table, fans, music, charisma, willingness to check in every day and become a power user of the site. To learn the subtle ins and outs and publish albums through them also so that they appear on YouTube and in all the music stores.

Some people talk discouraging about Reverbnation and they make a lot of incorrect assumptions.

It is not just about music but also about dedication to fans. Putting out new music on a regular basis.

How many listens are you really going to get if you only have three songs up there? If you have lots of songs you then have potential for lots of listens...

Rarely a day goes by that I do not spend a great deal of time on ReverbNation's website. Do you have a good artist's bio? Do you have a good review from a third party venue or music mogul?

Do you reach out to other ReverbNation members and friend them? Do you leave nice comments on their music? Do you play out live? Do you have nice photos and artwork for each song release, did you post the lyrics for each song?

Do you also like other ReverbNation members on Twitter?

Yea, it takes work and not just a nice song or two to make it high up on the ReverbNation charts.

Now, a nice song or two can get you a record deal or a radio station may play them but it takes more than that to move up the charts. It take a ton of dedication and hard work and frankly many musicians are in it for the money, sex and drugs and the music is actually quite low down on their priority list. Music is a full-time job and you have to facilitate your life so you can accomplish that objective. There are 4.5 million subscribers on ReverbNation but it is not impossible to become what it takes to reach #1 .

Check out my songs at rexred.com Peace and love peeps! See you at the top!

My music may not be your style of music but out of over 200 of my original songs of varying genres, people are bound to like at least one of them.
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