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Egotistic pretentious academics MAKE ME VOMIT.
Old 29th November 2011
  #1
Egotistic pretentious academics MAKE ME VOMIT.

So... I teach at a university so I see the most disgusting of all the inner circles.

Music professors in academia are perhaps the most self absorbed, dishonest, and pretentious group in the whole musical gene pool. I've never been so disgusted by people in my life and I pity the students who buy into this inbred garbage.

Today I encountered different event involving the same person.
1) A student in my class showed me his theory project and asked why the other professor requested him to change the chord progression from I-IV-ii-V to I-ii-IV-V. I was honest and replied that I had no idea. It really didn't matter much. He replied the other professor commented that "it just worked better that way."
2) Later the same person asked about writing for guitar. I decided to share that most guitarist prefer open-voicings (Drop-2 or Drop-3) instead of closed-voicing. Then demoed some simple examples. The other guy replied... "Well, I'd never write anything with triads anyway."

In other instances I've seen other professors belittle all film score writing as "trite romantic garbage that is based on formulas they teach at film schools."

I've also heard a jazz professor say that students shouldn't just use F min pentatonic over an F7 chord. Instead they should use Bb min pentatonic "because it sounds more like jazz."

I can't take this sh!t anymore. I'd rather work at a gas station than be associated with this garbage.
Old 29th November 2011
  #2
I don't agree with everything in this video, but I do agree with the way academics have been viewed vs. artists.
Old 29th November 2011
  #3
Lives for gear
 

What bothered me while doing my BMA the MMA is the obvious bubble that encapsulates academia. I'm sure they mean well but there are so many incompetent musicologists that as a requirement for tenure release ridiculous flawed beyond belief material that never gets proper scrutiny as they are all in it together. They use language that is not understandable by those not in the loop and they don't have to submit the sort of evidence say science would require. The result is an atmosphere where incompetence does not get called out.

I did the whole bachelor and masters at both curtis and Juilliard and the lack of accountability leaves a really large gab for incompetent individuals that never really learned anything past what they were taught. And what they teach in say a masters level program is rather rudimentary given what there is to know about music.

I used to get in countless arguments with professors. I wrote many paper dissecting ridiculous bull**** poorly glossed with academic writing and terminology that gives it at first glance some form of legitimacy. I mean there is some awful articles in journals that subjectivity aside, introduce these sort of contradictions , apriori logical pitfalls, just a quagmire of horrible research and implementation. Half the field practice this sort of practice that in science would be called out in a heartbeat. The fact that people still get grants to research Schenker analysis not as a historical phenomenon but as a little science is just mind blowing.

Now this was at the best of music schools. I can only imagine what happens at lower level colleges.

This isn't restricted to academic pursuits. The performance oriented programs are so tarnished with politics , teacher rivals, favouritism .... Basically everything you would think should not exist in an arena that is supposed to provide students a fair safe way to learn. I have sat on juries. I have been part of the selection process for staged productions. THe things i've seen just makes you wonder how someone so old can be so juvenile treating the young like assets rather than being educators and understanding what that entails.

There are a few individuals, some extremely bright individuals that get stuck in the middle. It is unfortunate. I wish there was a better way to weed out the incompetency, the ridiculous childish attitudes you just would not think is possible from someone at age 60 with a PHD under their belt.

But that is part of the problem with alot of academics. They have never had a real job. They don't understand the concept of professionalism in the work place. They use students as chess pieces in this continuing fight to be or feel important and it is always at the cost of the student. Music research outside of science for the most part is a complete joke. Disgusting and lazy peer reviewed by similar people. I don't think they mean bad, i just think they live in a bubble.

I could go on. And the problem is that it is rare for people to get to that level , surpass it and not fall into that safe bubble. I think the saddest part is that in my 8 years of study, only 1 person, a TA at that, made a difference. I found every teacher , every class not only a revision of things I had already learnt but taught by professors that had a grasp that was just . I mean put it this way, I went to these schools expecting to get my ass kicked. I wanted to learn. I wanted to have my ego crushed every day. I never really got that. I found that most people in these schools had been doing the classical thing since they were a kid and it was just a pattern. They didn't live and breath music. They were great in some regards in particular the performance faculty but they seemed to lack this curiosity and desire to know as much as they could. What resulted was 8 years of me just learning on my own. University was just scholarship money to pay rent and not work and the opportunity to study by myself.

I suppose I was rather gifted and I don't think this is the norm but there definitely is a lack of accountability in music pedagogy that allows complete hacks that neither contribute anything relevant or interesting in terms of research and don't really know much themselves except what is already available to read in most journals. There are some exceptions but the exceptions are rare. Music journals , and I do read them are full of that typical academic babble saying nothing, or saying something beyond stupid but it is all cloaked in language that makes it hard for those that are not in the field and part of the club to point out and say, really ?

Academia is ****ed up. I had to lie to get into curtis. Why ? because i didn't have a piano teacher and it was impossible according to them to teach yourself piano to be at a level sufficient for their standards without a teacher. So I had to forge letters of recommendation. I did the audition and you should think that would be enough. It just shows you how for a subject that is well , unlike anything else, they still think in such rigid manners. What it did do for me is instil this hunger to just know more than all these pretentious coddled squares that had a steinway at their disposal since they were toddlers. But they all lacked a personality. I did the 8 hour a day routine for many years but I had lived at least a little. I mean the amount of people in the classical realm that have never tried any drug, all religious for some reason , just a prototype of what it is to be boring. Never listened to anything but classical, look down on any other type of music, fail to see the irrelevant nature of what they are doing in terms of history. Lets face it. Being a concert pianist is impressive, but it is like a museum. I remember my teacher tried to fail me because at one point , i said I didn't want to be a performer. This was just to get into a school that pays for tuition. It didn't matter if I was beyond their standard. I felt like 80% of the people were living like it was 1920.

Not all bad but you get the jist. SOme great things. Alot of things that made me very skeptical in terms of musicology, or any sort of pedagogy surrounding music.
Old 29th November 2011
  #4
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 

I have been bashed for my comments about teachers in the past, but there can be a certain truth to the old saying, "Those who cant, teach"

There are a lot of great teachers in the world, even in music- however, just because someone is a teacher doesn't make them great.


I still have a certain attachment to an "F" I received on a bluebook project from one of my first film classes....
Old 29th November 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
 

i think that is part of the problem.

there was a time when those that could did also teach. Almost every great composer taught at some point in time. But there seems to be this false economy where teachers exist as they can't do anything else. At some point, music stopped being a practical topic and become a liberal art. But they don't teach it as such. People that teach arts teach you to think critically. This doesn't exist for music pedagogy, So you get this weird mix of unpracticality. Music schools are becoming a sort of racket.

Some more than others. Learning art is never a waste of time but if you are going to learn it in that manner, critical thinking should be at the forefront. But it isn't.

It is just weird. I mean it is really a unique setting to exist in a university.

The worst are audio schools. I mean at least university has some sort of legitimacy where you do learn history even if you are a performance major. But when you start having all these technical schools that are founded or should be on the basis of practicality and demand lack both. That to me is a racket. They lower the standards to get more students. The result is a breed of students cheated and lied. They know nothing. They don't know that what they learnt has no application until they have paid out. And those schools exist only to fund themselves and their teachers. A technical school should have a direct link to getting jobs. And when you don't, you are a scam.

All those 9 month audio programs are a money making scams. And if you were to look at how these types of schools come into existence. It is never a pedagogical pursuit. It is almost always say a failed studio that realizes, we can't get clients but we can get students to pay to learn. It is dishonest. They never tell you the fact that this education will get you nothing. They will say it is hard but give you this little nugget of hope that pushes you to write that check. And that is not fair to these students that have expectations based on how these schools advertise.
Old 29th November 2011
  #6
And that's my beef.... There are those who, because they have a PhD and teach, have invested and bought into their own "greatness" and infallibility. The problem is that they assume they do know and have lost the ability to separate their opinion from fact.

I've always wanted to believe in education, higher-learning, and the integrity of professors. Unfortunately I have been proven wrong so often that now I despise them. The percentage of those in the system who are not the dregs, the real educators, are about 10% from what I can tell.

Be warned young people. Gather all you can while in school but always with a grain of salt. Leave ASAP and find those who are "doing" outside of academic circles. Those who are teaching are often the product of education instead of experience.
Old 29th November 2011
  #7
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
I have been bashed for my comments about teachers in the past, but there can be a certain truth to the old saying, "Those who cant, teach"....
and those who can't teach, teach sport.
Old 30th November 2011
  #8
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3rd Degree's Avatar
 

I honestly didn't go that far with music from an academic standpoint and I am glad. I did take as much music as I could in college but I didn't really take much more than fulfilling GE stuff. Even in HS band, we got a new teacher and he was such an arrogant asshole that I had to quit, even though I kept taking private lessons after. He was actually a very talented musician and should have been teaching on a higher level but still.

I have experienced the whole idea of having to be creative to the standards of one who can only create in their small box. However, my friends with masters and Ph.D's had it worse. It was really sick to hear how they had to compose projects that took them months, only to have someone try to fail them from a point of disagreement that was opinion based, not academic. Same with other fine arts, some of my friends got totally destroyed by their teachers to the point they began to hate art. Ironically, the few people I know who did higher education in art actually graduated at the top of their class or had honors for everything. So, it wasn't like they were the bottom of the barrel, they were the top.


I will say this however...going to the local JC to take some electronic music classes was one of the most enjoyable educational experiences I have ever had. The teachers were amazingly qualified for a JC but carried no strong opinions. Everyone in the class improved who put in the work. Some people had never played music in their life and ended up being fairly talented in the end. In one of my classes, my teacher knew less than me in a particular aspect of a program and we were similar in our knowledge in general. He was still able to push me to really expand on my work and it was incredibly cool that he learned things from me and went out of his way to show me, from a thankful place. My music teachers and I were peers, they even collaborated with me from a place of true interest.

It goes both ways. I know there is a HUGE gap between higher education in music and intro to Pro Tools classes at a JC but my experience with music and academia had been pretty poor before this, with an exception of 2 great teachers I had for some theory classes.
Old 30th November 2011
  #9
Now that I don't want to beat this pompous ass any longer... I'll concede that there are great aspects of music education in both public schools and higher ed. I've done lots of things that wouldn't have been possible without my university experience; writing for and orchestrating symphonic music, extensive music theory, good musical ear training, etc.

You can get a ton out of the experience. Just don't believe the hype. There are some clowns masking as self diagnosed gods and heros.... and there are some people who are honest and genuine about helping you explore music.
Old 30th November 2011
  #10
Gear Nut
 

unfortunately, all these terrible characteristics in academia are found across all the disciplines. the politics, favoritism, blind devotion/denial to theories and opinions, egotistical self-absorption can be found in every building on campus. i worked on the administrative side of 3 different academic depts while in school and got to see much more than i wanted in regards to this. what's scary was the depts i worked in were in the sciences, where you have facts, data and things that can be proved wrong. i can't imagine the what its like in a subjective field like music.

the earlier quote still sums it up best... "those who can't, teach"
Old 30th November 2011
  #11
Good teachers will admit that they don't know everything, they will be able to give clear explanations of WHY they feel the way they do and will encourage problem solving.

We can never let our self-image rely on any single opinion, whether it's a bad review in a magazine, a discouraging remark from a teacher or mean spirited criticism from a listserve.

At the end of the day, getting feedback is invaluable, but trust has to be established and the person receiving it needs to have an open mind. Otherwise, the teacher is failing and the pupil is closed.

Good teachers have the best interests of their pupils at heart.

blah blah blah, we probably know this stuff already...
Old 2nd December 2011
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

I wrote a Philosophy paper 27 years ago (I was a Physics major) for an elective course. The professor's comments were; "this is the best thought-out, best written paper I have received this year, from any student, but I disagree with you. D-". When I pressed him on it, he couldn't refute anything I said. He just repeated that he disagreed. My second paper for that course received a similar mark. His problem was that he couldn't understand the mathematics I used to prove an admittedly drunken joke of a theory I hatched. Ironically, I read last year that research along a very similar line had been hailed as a breakthrough in Physics. I wish now that I hadn't torn up my papers in his office and told him to "**** off".
Old 4th December 2011
  #13
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ionian's Avatar
Interesting - when I was at music school it was the other students that annoyed the hell out of me and were too pretentious!

The teachers I got along great with.

The students were very closed minded and annoying as hell. I barely had any friends since I really didn't consider any of them good enough (read: Open minded enough) to play with. I managed to find maybe 5 others who were similar to me and all 5 of us are still friends after all these years and all call each other for work on a regular basis.

I was open minded and creative and found many of the teachers receptive to me and my ideas. The other students, not so much.

Also - I was self taught and I assume gifted to a degree since I got good enough on my own to gain admission and the school I attended (Mannes) had no problem with that - in fact I had even managed to score a partial scholarship so they had no problem even rewarding me despite the fact I didn't have a teacher. Although once I was in school, by requirement, I was assigned a (fantastic) teacher, thankfully who helped correct some things I was doing ass-backward. And is still one of my best friends to this day.

I loved my times in Mannes. Found the teachers fantastic. In fact, one teacher really jump started my career by recommending me to Bette Midler. I can't say enough good things about my time there and it was easily worth the student loan I'm still paying off.

Amazingly, even though I've been out of school for over a decade, I still have very good relationships with most of my teachers. I call them frequently for advice - for example recently when I landed an arranging gig for the Duke Ellington orchestra for a show at the Roseland ballroom, I had called up my old arranging teacher to ask him a few questions since I hadn't scored all that often for bass trombone and was a bit cloudy on it.

The students on the other hand I found to be extremely closed minded. Most of them didn't like me as much as I didn't like them. Although I disliked them for being closed minded, they disliked me because I could care less for playing Giant Steps in 7 and saw it as a waste of time. Small wonder that I went on to a successful career as a musician while most of them either aren't playing anymore or are still playing gigs at the c-note for $50.

In fact, I got engaged last year and two of my teachers were at my engagement party.

So yes, I went to a rather prestigious music school in NYC, loved it, learned a ton, made friends with my teachers and a small group of like-minded students and have gone on to a great career.

Regards,
Frank
Old 20th October 2019
  #14
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadforBrad View Post
What bothered me while doing my BMA the MMA is the obvious bubble that encapsulates academia. I'm sure they mean well but there are so many incompetent musicologists that as a requirement for tenure release ridiculous flawed beyond belief material that never gets proper scrutiny as they are all in it together. They use language that is not understandable by those not in the loop and they don't have to submit the sort of evidence say science would require. The result is an atmosphere where incompetence does not get called out.

I did the whole bachelor and masters at both curtis and Juilliard and the lack of accountability leaves a really large gab for incompetent individuals that never really learned anything past what they were taught. And what they teach in say a masters level program is rather rudimentary given what there is to know about music.

I used to get in countless arguments with professors. I wrote many paper dissecting ridiculous bull**** poorly glossed with academic writing and terminology that gives it at first glance some form of legitimacy. I mean there is some awful articles in journals that subjectivity aside, introduce these sort of contradictions , apriori logical pitfalls, just a quagmire of horrible research and implementation. Half the field practice this sort of practice that in science would be called out in a heartbeat. The fact that people still get grants to research Schenker analysis not as a historical phenomenon but as a little science is just mind blowing.

Now this was at the best of music schools. I can only imagine what happens at lower level colleges.

This isn't restricted to academic pursuits. The performance oriented programs are so tarnished with politics , teacher rivals, favouritism .... Basically everything you would think should not exist in an arena that is supposed to provide students a fair safe way to learn. I have sat on juries. I have been part of the selection process for staged productions. THe things i've seen just makes you wonder how someone so old can be so juvenile treating the young like assets rather than being educators and understanding what that entails.

There are a few individuals, some extremely bright individuals that get stuck in the middle. It is unfortunate. I wish there was a better way to weed out the incompetency, the ridiculous childish attitudes you just would not think is possible from someone at age 60 with a PHD under their belt.

But that is part of the problem with alot of academics. They have never had a real job. They don't understand the concept of professionalism in the work place. They use students as chess pieces in this continuing fight to be or feel important and it is always at the cost of the student. Music research outside of science for the most part is a complete joke. Disgusting and lazy peer reviewed by similar people. I don't think they mean bad, i just think they live in a bubble.

I could go on. And the problem is that it is rare for people to get to that level , surpass it and not fall into that safe bubble. I think the saddest part is that in my 8 years of study, only 1 person, a TA at that, made a difference. I found every teacher , every class not only a revision of things I had already learnt but taught by professors that had a grasp that was just . I mean put it this way, I went to these schools expecting to get my ass kicked. I wanted to learn. I wanted to have my ego crushed every day. I never really got that. I found that most people in these schools had been doing the classical thing since they were a kid and it was just a pattern. They didn't live and breath music. They were great in some regards in particular the performance faculty but they seemed to lack this curiosity and desire to know as much as they could. What resulted was 8 years of me just learning on my own. University was just scholarship money to pay rent and not work and the opportunity to study by myself.

I suppose I was rather gifted and I don't think this is the norm but there definitely is a lack of accountability in music pedagogy that allows complete hacks that neither contribute anything relevant or interesting in terms of research and don't really know much themselves except what is already available to read in most journals. There are some exceptions but the exceptions are rare. Music journals , and I do read them are full of that typical academic babble saying nothing, or saying something beyond stupid but it is all cloaked in language that makes it hard for those that are not in the field and part of the club to point out and say, really ?

Academia is ****ed up. I had to lie to get into curtis. Why ? because i didn't have a piano teacher and it was impossible according to them to teach yourself piano to be at a level sufficient for their standards without a teacher. So I had to forge letters of recommendation. I did the audition and you should think that would be enough. It just shows you how for a subject that is well , unlike anything else, they still think in such rigid manners. What it did do for me is instil this hunger to just know more than all these pretentious coddled squares that had a steinway at their disposal since they were toddlers. But they all lacked a personality. I did the 8 hour a day routine for many years but I had lived at least a little. I mean the amount of people in the classical realm that have never tried any drug, all religious for some reason , just a prototype of what it is to be boring. Never listened to anything but classical, look down on any other type of music, fail to see the irrelevant nature of what they are doing in terms of history. Lets face it. Being a concert pianist is impressive, but it is like a museum. I remember my teacher tried to fail me because at one point , i said I didn't want to be a performer. This was just to get into a school that pays for tuition. It didn't matter if I was beyond their standard. I felt like 80% of the people were living like it was 1920.

Not all bad but you get the jist. SOme great things. Alot of things that made me very skeptical in terms of musicology, or any sort of pedagogy surrounding music.
Couldn't agree more. But you would be surprised what comes out of "lesser colleges". A lot more ambition, hunger, adventurousness, mould breaking, insight, creativity, modernity, challenge, open-mindedness.

Prestigious schools are unanimously stuffy. I was offered places at Cambridge here in the UK. But I had already made my mind up at interview stage to reject them. No humour. No personality. No spark. No desire to learn anything or look at anything outside outdated, antiquated and unfit for purpose ideologies. I went for a mid tier university instead where the lecturers were young, forward thinking, and many had been in other careers before academia.

"Prestige"in music schools is just the accumulated residual stain of endless circle jerks over several centuries. I would rather take a shot of tabasco in my eyeball than go back to listening to some bellend lecture me about the value of neumes and describe dissonant cacophonic horse **** as "interesting".

Bore off, Goeffrey.
Old 20th October 2019
  #15
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HerbDelux's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by krusty View Post
I wrote a Philosophy paper 27 years ago (I was a Physics major) for an elective course. The professor's comments were; "this is the best thought-out, best written paper I have received this year, from any student, but I disagree with you. D-". When I pressed him on it, he couldn't refute anything I said. He just repeated that he disagreed. My second paper for that course received a similar mark. His problem was that he couldn't understand the mathematics I used to prove an admittedly drunken joke of a theory I hatched. Ironically, I read last year that research along a very similar line had been hailed as a breakthrough in Physics. I wish now that I hadn't torn up my papers in his office and told him to "**** off".
What was the physics breakthrough if you don't mind me asking? I love the intersections of philosophy and physics.
Old 20th October 2019
  #16
Three stages of higher education.

BS (we all know what that means)
MS (more of the same)
PhD (piled higher and deeper)

I have a very good friend who is an emeritus professor and his take is that as you progress thought academia you know more and more about less and less and when you become a PhD you know a tremendous amount about very little. FWIW
Old 21st October 2019
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
students shouldn't just use F min pentatonic over an F7 chord. Instead they should use Bb min pentatonic
overall i hear ya, but i actually think this bit here is decent advice.
Old 21st October 2019
  #18
Nah man. Music theory doesn't support this idea. It sounds like a cool idea... and similar works if you use the 5th scale degree (Cmin Pentatonic over F7). Bbmin Pentatonic over F7 is a disaster suggestion because of the combo of 4th and #5th against the harmony. A skilled player MIGHT be able to use it in passing as a short tension device but it's a horrible suggestion without explicit caveats.... and the real killer in that comment was "shouldn't use F pentatonic" - - - moronic advice.

Last edited by spiderman; 21st October 2019 at 01:45 PM..
Old 21st October 2019
  #19
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
the real killer in that comment was "shouldn't use F pentatonic" - - - moronic advice.
If the statement as you put it was to not "just use F min pentatonic over an F7 chord" in jazz then I absolutely agree with that professor. To my ears nothing sounds "amateur jazz" more than sticking to that scale over that chord.

Having said that the suggested alternative was an odd choice and I agree with your objection to that.
Old 21st October 2019
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
If the statement as you put it was to not "just use F min pentatonic over an F7 chord" in jazz then I absolutely agree with that professor. To my ears nothing sounds "amateur jazz" more than sticking to that scale over that chord.

Having said that the suggested alternative was an odd choice and I agree with your objection to that.
Next time I see them... I'll be sure to tell Joshua Redman and John Scofield not to use pentatonic minor anymore.

https://evansamuels.wordpress.com/20...a-redman-solo/
Old 21st October 2019
  #21
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
Music professors in academia are perhaps the most self absorbed, dishonest, and pretentious group in the whole musical gene pool. I've never been so disgusted by people in my life and I pity the students who buy into this inbred garbage.
Some are OK but they are few-and-far-between and usually are the ones that also work at the rock-face, performing live and writing music that others actually want to listen to!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
I've seen other professors belittle all film score writing as "trite romantic garbage that is based on formulas they teach at film schools."
Tell them to do it - that'll wipe the smug look off their faces!

It ain't as easy as it looks - the picture comes first and the music has to fit the images on the screen - no arguments allowed! If the director want two seconds taken off, then off they must come! And if an extra 9.5 seconds needs to be added, that is what is going to happen. And if they don't like the key or the progression or the phrase, it is going to have to change and probably by first thing tomorrow.

I always remember the line "Those who can't, teach!"
Old 21st October 2019
  #22
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Three stages of higher education.

BS (we all know what that means)
MS (more of the same)
PhD (piled higher and deeper)

I have a very good friend who is an emeritus professor and his take is that as you progress thought academia you know more and more about less and less and when you become a PhD you know a tremendous amount about very little. FWIW
I'm just taking the above as a sort of springboard, so my 'objections' aren't necessarily implying that they are to your feelings about it...

Anyway, there's also Dunning-Kruger, right? So the idea is that the more you know about a topic the more you realize how much you don't know. So there's this inverse relationship between knowledge and confidence, meaning that people with little knowledge are overly confident simply because they think they know more than they do, whereas people who know a lot realize how much more there is to know and thus end up being less confident.

In my experience higher music education was great. The only times I had a bad class it was either because the teacher had an issue, like he was lazy or had a personal problem, but every time a teacher took his class seriously it was great, and that was 95% of them.

I went to Berklee 1996-2000 and the teachers I had did generally not have the issues that are described in this thread. More importantly, the best and most knowledgeable teachers were the by far most humble and open minded. They were absolutely assertive in their teaching and in their argumentation, but they made it clear that this was an institution for study and thus there was a particular goal in every class and that goal had to be met to get a good grade.

One example was my favorite teacher in music theory. His way of teaching was to explain how contemporary theory works and then give us the assignment to write a song using relevant chord progressions and scales. But, he allowed us to stray from that theory as long as our accompanying analysis pointed out what was "wrong" in how we applied it. So I could absolutely write a Bb min pentatonic scale over even an F maj 7 if I wanted to as long as each note was properly analyzed and there was a comment that simply said "I like how it sounds" or something along those lines. As long as he understood that I understood what the scale "should" have been it was all good.

And this is often how it went. Teachers were receptive to alternate opinions.

I think on a general note we have to remember too that in threads like these we have no idea of knowing whether or not events were as we perceive them when reading peoples descriptions, or if the were as the people who wrote about them perceived them. We're talking about human interaction and a lot of times people just aren't 'on the same page'. I've had quite a few instances where fellow students (not just music college) complained about a teacher yet the problem was clearly the student... but the friends of that student agreed that the teacher was a problem. A sort of lazy group-think.

I think it's the same in higher education because we're still just dealing with fallible humans. I had a great but boring class that dealt with MIDI and audio on a very basic level, and some students thought it was super-dull and simply a bad class. I took it seriously. Never mind my grade, but which students do we think actually had a solid understanding of signals after that semester.

Lastly, I think it's deeply concerning that people make blanket statement about higher education and about expertise. These days it's exactly what we don't need as our ice caps are melting. It's not non-expertise we need when fighting Ebola and cancer. Yet I think this disdain for higher education and a perceived walled-in intelligentsia that protects its own domain is actually harmful to society. What we should be teaching is questioning authority and encouraging curiosity and critical thinking, but without a blanket dismissal of those who have spent the time and done the work before us....

[/rant]
Old 21st October 2019
  #23
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
Next time I see them... I'll be sure to tell Joshua Redman and John Scofield not to use pentatonic minor anymore.

https://evansamuels.wordpress.com/20...a-redman-solo/
If you

1. can't correctly understand the importance of the word "just" even when I made it bold and

2. think I'm saying that people shouldn't "use pentatonic minor anymore"

then I can see how higher education might have not been for you. It's like you just failed the lowest bar of reasoning and paying attention.
Old 21st October 2019
  #24
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Says the person who wasn't there... reading information second-hand on a forum...
You still aren't parsing the conversation correctly. I didn't say your version of events wasn't what happened, I was making a general statement about how we often filter events both during perception and again later when recounting the events. So I simply said it is possible for you to have been wrong.

Therefore "we" need to be careful with making blanket-statements out of individual experiences that we read, as we both said 'second-hand', on a forum.

Quote:
and talking down with some elitist judgmental attitude over minor semantics.
"minor semantics" is a very different issue from failed reasoning and not paying attention. There's a huge difference between telling a student to get away from playing one particular scale only on a particular chord when playing jazz and on the other hand saying one should never play that scale.

I said the former was probably correct advice, and you made a leap straight to the impression that I had said the latter. You had all the time in the world to read, re-read, and re-re-read what I wrote to see what my point was.

I would argue that at higher education institutions "semantics" often needs to be more accurate exactly because it is required to learn faster, better and more. So I have to wonder if your past impressions were correct since you couldn't even parse what I actually wrote correctly today.
Old 21st October 2019
  #25
Lives for gear
 
swafford's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Three stages of higher education.

BS (we all know what that means)
MS (more of the same)
PhD (piled higher and deeper)

I have a very good friend who is an emeritus professor and his take is that as you progress thought academia you know more and more about less and less and when you become a PhD you know a tremendous amount about very little. FWIW
Not exactly a testicle tingling observation. I'm pretty sure the point of advancing in degrees is to increasingly focus your knowledge and research more narrowly. But then again, I'm only a BFA (Been Fvcking Around) who wouldn't know a minor pentatonic from a major Pentecostal.

However, I did enjoy fvcking around.

The degree was pretty useful, too.

(I play banjo.)
Old 21st October 2019
  #26
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by swafford View Post
testicle tingling
Just wanted to quote that.
Old 22nd October 2019
  #27
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
moronic advice.
I think the real question that all of us want to know.....

Are you still teaching at the university?
Old 22nd October 2019
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I think the real question that all of us want to know.....

Are you still teaching at the university?
Left in 2012 thanks to a larger budget project.

Will also admit my bitterness has cooled over the years... but the situation at that school is still a charade. Same guy who was stating those incorrect things is still there, running the show.... But now selling film sound courses too. Of course, he has never scored or mixed a commercial film... But cest la vie.

Last edited by spiderman; 22nd October 2019 at 03:31 AM..
Old 22nd October 2019
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
I can't take this sh!t anymore. I'd rather work at a gas station than be associated with this garbage.
So, what’s the holdup? I need $20 of gas on pump five. And a pack of Marlboro’s. You got change for a $100?
Old 22nd October 2019
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
So, what’s the holdup? I need $20 of gas on pump five. And a pack of Marlboro’s. You got change for a $100?

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