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Old 9th November 2011
  #61
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always_ending's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaphappy View Post
That is certainly one way to look at it. Dancing with the 800 lb gorilla is the way I like to see it.

Cheers...
dont talk about your mom that way.... she's not THAT bad



anyways.... the point is, that of course everyone can tell the difference b/w "pro" and "amateur" if they're on here (or at least I do hope so). that's why they're on here... to attempt to "bridge the gap", and yes, it does take quite some time to get from point A to B.... show me any "pro" engineer you can name, his body of work, what studio/engineer/producer he worked under/for, that has achieved this "pro" sound you speak of in a short period of time, say less than 5 years.

but as stated before in other terms... what's "pro level's" #1 MAIN ingredient, long before the high level studios, grammy award winning producers, record labels, microphones, preamps, compressors, etc, etc, etc......

... the pro MUSICIANS that are playing on those albums.

as Alan Parson, Michael Brauer, Eric Valentine, and every other PRO engineer/producer that's come to this forum has stated... the MAJORITY of the "sound" is coming from the artists, period.
Old 9th November 2011
  #62
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always_ending's Avatar
 

and since you've stated you're NOT an engineer....

we could also label this post here "everybody's a critic!"

seeing as you're on a message board that's full of and pretty much built around engineering sound and helping people "move upwards" from "amateur" to "pro", I'm not quite sure why you're on here?

to each his own.

enjoy your perfect world. I'll stick with my reality.
Old 9th November 2011
  #63
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BillSimpkins's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roman manlord View Post
Count me as someone who doesn't care. Some of my favorite recordings, though recorded by pros at the time, are pretty far from what would be considered pro today. Those recordings are now considered legendary. And what's great is we can now spend less than a grand and buy everything we need to make recordings that, sound quality wise, are superior to those legendary recordings.

Now, the only limitation is talent.
Examples please?
Tell me how you can do this with crappy preamps and mics?
Old 10th November 2011
  #64
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glenn Taylor's Avatar
 

I am not a recording engineer, but I play one on GEARSLUTZ.
Old 10th November 2011
  #65
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the sad part is the lack of mic technique with so many young people. I am a composer. But i can set up a decca tree, I know how to space microphones, what a blumlein stereo setup is ...... I mean i thought this was just stuff people know. Common knowledge but unfortunately , there is a generation of teens young adults that have never actually heard real music. Never heard an instrument live. The idea of recording is met with a question as to which sample library I should use.

Schools are no better. The stuff they should be teaching. The science. Why you put a microphone in a certain position, why you space things a certain way. This is the stuff you learn with the tools and space you don't have at home. Learning to mix is something you can learn at home.

And this is to say nothing about the actual music. Basic theory. Not knowing how to read music.

some youtube videos are just full of dumbasses getting jiggy to some drum pattern which they are triggering albeit off time but quantization makes it perfect and ... ya i could go on.
Old 10th November 2011
  #66
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logicll's Avatar
 

This is why I like doing string sessions, I get to use mic techniques, read a bit and have fun with the sound of the room.

Most interns didn't care about hardware, but showed some interest in mic placement. They knew a ton of Pro Tools shortcuts though!
Old 16th November 2011
  #67
Here for the gear
 

What is amazing to me is that, even though you are NOT an engineer, you believe you know what's best. Home studio's are not ruining audio recordings. Furthermore I don't feel we're in all that bad a spot. Sure things are way too "loud" (read: over-compressed) for my tastes. But really you should blame company's for selling ****ty amps in car stereos (IMHO) for that one. Perhaps also the consumer (read: You?) for always seeming to think that there is one good sound and everything else is wrong. Music recording has never really been a simple search for quality but for expression. I would rather listen to Woods play into their (I'm assuming here) awful gear and cringe at some of their thin mixes than listen to anything Robert Plant did post Zeppelin in pro studios. To me that stuff just sounds awful and dated. That goes for a good amount of pro recordings today, they make my ears tired. Too much "polish" (Read: compression). As a young engineer just starting out it is painful to work on a project for guys who reformed their 70's era band, and seem to want a "new millennium sound." Then to realize that what really makes them happy is to just take a good mix and turn down the threshold of an L2, and just KNOW that if only people were OK with turning up their dials a little more in the car or at home. We could have more distinct mixes out there. Ones that sound like the person who did them, not just the status quo. Sure it sucks that studios are closing, where I live (LINY) it seems like everyone is closing down. But really most of these studios were making music most people don't really care about, and many of them weren't even that good. We could go on all day about this. But I am sure of one thing, your view is way too narrow and simplistic, and you're bemoaning a group of people who have very likely (at least certain numbers of them) contributed way more to the art of music and music production that you ever will.
Old 16th November 2011
  #68
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadforBrad View Post
the sad part is the lack of mic technique with so many young people. I am a composer. But i can set up a decca tree, I know how to space microphones, what a blumlein stereo setup is ...... I mean i thought this was just stuff people know. Common knowledge but unfortunately , there is a generation of teens young adults that have never actually heard real music. Never heard an instrument live. The idea of recording is met with a question as to which sample library I should use.

Schools are no better. The stuff they should be teaching. The science. Why you put a microphone in a certain position, why you space things a certain way. This is the stuff you learn with the tools and space you don't have at home. Learning to mix is something you can learn at home.

And this is to say nothing about the actual music. Basic theory. Not knowing how to read music.

some youtube videos are just full of dumbasses getting jiggy to some drum pattern which they are triggering albeit off time but quantization makes it perfect and ... ya i could go on.

Here here sir. This especially upsets me as a young hopeful to the field. That there are people who produce number one records who admit to fixing everything in the box and figuring it out later using plug-ins, I often wonder why I plan on spending so much time caring about things like placement when people like this (chough, John Fields) are an example of what so many people want in an "engineer."
Old 17th November 2011
  #69
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 

FWIW I agree that the DIY mentality is contributing to an overall lowering of quality, knowledge and understanding.

But the reality is that the money just isn't there. If no one is making money back from the records it just doesn't make sense to spend thousands on recording, mixing and mastering. Unless you're dealing with at least a very serious medium sized indie, it's not happening. Plus it's fun to DIY and people also are scared of letting other people contribute to their artistic vision. They can't take 100% credit then.

Oh and everyone thinks they can do it themselves if they just get that 1176/preamp/whatever.

Good time to make products that help people DIY, bad time to be an 'engineer'

The reality is that people care about the song more than the sonics, which is fair enough.

But I know several really serious 'music lovers' and label guys who don't even listen on real speakers. Its laptop speakers all the way....
Old 17th November 2011
  #70
Here for the gear
 

Great post, Tom.

One thing I would add to all of this: Don't most consumers end up listening to stuff these days, when all is said and done, as over-compressed MP3 files?

If so, wouldn't you have to take that into account as an engineer?
Old 18th November 2011
  #71
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DFGuitar View Post
But I am sure of one thing, your view is way too narrow and simplistic, and you're bemoaning a group of people who have very likely (at least certain numbers of them) contributed way more to the art of music and music production that you ever will.
Um...I can see where you may feel the need to be defensive.

But...if I spend more time writing songs and performing (and less time trying to be an engineer), I am indeed contributing to my art (which just HAPPENS to be that of a musician, not an engineer).

Besides, I don't require a computer or samples or even electricity to do my thing, so maybe that's where the difference is. I guess for some folks, the line between making music and engineering has disappeared. Different strokes.
Old 24th November 2011
  #72
Gear Head
 

I think some of the best music recordings come from the 1920s and 1930s. I think it's tragic that people don't listen to pools and pools of legendary performances because of fuzz and pops. But, it's their ears, not mine. And personally, I think some of the harshest recordings from the 1920s sound better than "the hot new thang of 2011". It's all personal opinion. You like what you like and you don't like what you don't like. So in that regard I have no idea what the original poster is complaining about. To my ears, a lot of "professional" mixes sound worse than "amateur" mixes. What does "professional" mean anyway? Pricey equipment? The prestige of a name? It feels like your post boils down to "I'm angry there's so many recordings these days that I don't like".
Old 25th November 2011
  #73
Here for the gear
 

I used to think music was largely subjective. I now realise I was wrong. It is entirely subjective.
Old 29th November 2011
  #74
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ReZoUnD's Avatar
 

Growing up i never thought about how something sounds just how it feels whether it had alot of dirt or clarity, and as i got into the books and learning what i could under the pros and relized i became a ROBOT...Mundane, my first album was done in a small closet and the others with highend gear and knowledge of these tid bits, my first album has soul and hunger for the msg getting across, my new one have more clarity and cool but not as intresting to me when i compare...also i have alot of nieces and nephews every single time i see them jamming its on there xbox or smartphone listining to top hits to the worst sounding underground songs but its what they like...coming from a phone or tv they both sound good lol i mean theres a balance difference and placement but my family dont notice there just jamming...so the more i think about trying to be a pro im loosing out on what really matters

its like whatching one of those movies where some poor person going to a fancy restaurant and get this perfect balanced top notch perfectly steemed baby carrots and souce drizzled around the plate and there like WTF is this haha and they run out and go to a food truck around the corner and get FAT stuffed greased up taco and Burrito where u throw all that Sh*t into a tortilla and u got a HIT hahaha!! im sorry if u loose your girlfreind to a male stripper while u have education and diplomas to show your human quality and he know how to make thongs and velcrow pants lol its been like this for along time, Get in where u Fit in, stop whining about the nxt man. I Got more out my home studio than I would ever have being in a major studio i cant afford
and yes im a engineer oooohhh!!! lol just having fun witcha
Old 29th November 2011
  #75
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by sw0mgt View Post
I think some of the best music recordings come from the 1920s and 1930s. I think it's tragic that people don't listen to pools and pools of legendary performances because of fuzz and pops. But, it's their ears, not mine. And personally, I think some of the harshest recordings from the 1920s sound better than "the hot new thang of 2011". It's all personal opinion. You like what you like and you don't like what you don't like. So in that regard I have no idea what the original poster is complaining about. To my ears, a lot of "professional" mixes sound worse than "amateur" mixes. What does "professional" mean anyway? Pricey equipment? The prestige of a name? It feels like your post boils down to "I'm angry there's so many recordings these days that I don't like".
I agree. The term "professional" means you are simply making money off recording artists. As time has gone on, companies like Behringer have really lifted their game ( no anti-China slurs please). The average listener doesn't give a flying fart about the technical side, they just want good songs.
Old 29th November 2011
  #76
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MTStudios's Avatar
I think part of the problem is that the very essence of what we do is IMAGINING what could be from what is. Imagining a better guitar tone and knowing how to go after it.

The way I describe my job is often that I make sure no opportunities are missed. Technical knowledge is just a tool, the part that makes me valuable is that I can find these missed opportunities and exploit them. Fact is, there's thousands and thousands on every record. Whether it's pushing that guitar up just before the bridge to build some anticipation, or spending another 5 minutes working on a guitar tone for that over dub. Or seeing that the singer's performance hasn't peaked yet and pushing them to it.

It drives me nuts, hearing a lot of peoples work and going "Oh no! It would've been so much better if they'd _____" or "God that part is really flat and lifeless" or whatever.

I mean, it's supposed to be the ULTIMATE and FINAL incarnation of their art! Why is anyone willing to let that be less than it could be?
Old 2nd December 2011
  #77
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ReZoUnD's Avatar
 

Quote:

It drives me nuts, hearing a lot of peoples work and going "Oh no! It would've been so much better if they'd _____" or "God that part is really flat and lifeless" or whatever.

I mean, it's supposed to be the ULTIMATE and FINAL incarnation of their art! Why is anyone willing to let that be less than it could be?
well thats great just great

its a conflict cuz theres main streem and theres art, and they both win, we can love the details in wich someone puts in there work they make history, when the right peaple discover it and exploit it, and theres the one that makes alot of money making short term hits for the monster....both win, wich one do u choose is the Q: Broke with a good master piece or Rich with the mundane "Genre Mixing standerd" and then my favorites the one that just makes music with out thinking, its over compresses here and there it should be pocketet and this is out of tune

(whining) oh in metal music the gtr should fill the spectrum and hip hop should hve more bass and talk about ass in tits and wheres the heavy bass that leads my reggae song Blardy Blardy Blarr its the ones that think out side the box that change music, lets start listening and stop complaining...and im not bashing anyone, just saying
Old 10th December 2011
  #78
Gear Maniac
 
coffeecup77's Avatar
Hi all.

With you all the way Slaphappy !

I have been surprised by comments, here on GS, on some mic shootout threads where some "engineers" can't hear the difference between mics. Just another example that shows that it's not because you are a professionnal that you are good. And it's not because you record and mix in a Top Studio rather than in your home studio that costs 300 times less, that your making good music. You can put me in Joel Robuchon's, Alain Ducasse's or Thierry Marx's kitchens, I will never cook like them !

Love this story : Sylvia Massy Gear Stories Column | Sylvia Massy Writes About Recording Prince

Today, a lot of people own high-end photography and video equipement (compared to what the average had 30 years ago), but when you look at what's on Flickr or YouTube, 90% of what is "published" just plain sucks.

You know what ? Just as some doctors should never operate, some engineers ... should probably try out fishing.

Cheers.
Old 10th December 2011
  #79
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Joe Haze's Avatar
 

I have worked with Sylvia on many albums, you would be surprised what works.

All gear aside, make it happen fast, figure it out. Who has time to obsess over gear when the clock it ticking at 1k a day? Use what works, be fast.
Old 10th December 2011
  #80
Gear Maniac
 
coffeecup77's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Haze View Post
I have worked with Sylvia on many albums, you would be surprised what works.
Hi Joe, you don't know how much I would LOVE to be surprised ... by Sylvia Massy !

Cheers.
Old 11th December 2011
  #81
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satellitedog's Avatar
As a songsmith crook I'd say much of the success of homerecording (putting aside the false feeling of entitelment by some home-recordists to name themselves producers or engineers) is plainly due to the feasibility of fast and repeatable results without a studio clock ticking. It's lovely to be able to create usable demos, which if worth the money, will be improved upon at a real studio, or revisited at home with new clearer perspective. I find this is a great achievement, but don't think it's anything new. Springsteen's Nebraska is a valid example I think.

I wish I had the money to go record demos at pro studios, but I'm content with recording and finetuning musical ideas at home, in the knowledge that I can finalize the writing process in my free time for free, and let a professional studio take care about the ultimate version (as if such a thing in music was common), all the while learning and deepening my knowledge of the process. I've started gathering a recording set-up because I didn't want to compromise my performances thinking about money and effin' up in front of a professional. It works, and it helps me advance in both writing and performance, not to mention the growing understanding of recorded music.
Old 13th December 2011
  #82
For starters, I bought my first console in 1987, doing MIDI on a Commodore 64, o yeah.
The current "scene" IS chock full of MXL mics and M-boxes, pirated Abletons and hacked Waves plugins. But as we've noticed, it's full of crappity crappy crap. There definitely is some good crap though...
I definitely feel that between drummers being time-aligned and beat replaced, singers being auto-tuned and Melodyned that most recorded "radio-friendly" music has lost it's soul. Too many recording budgets include an editor!
Not that I'm a big fan but god bless Norah Jones (and those like her) for reminding us of what we should strive for, as engineers, producers, arrangers and so on.

Last edited by manysounds; 13th December 2011 at 12:15 PM.. Reason: typo typos
Old 31st July 2020
  #83
Gear Maniac
 
coffeecup77's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeecup77 View Post
Hi all.

With you all the way Slaphappy !

I have been surprised by comments, here on GS, on some mic shootout threads where some "engineers" can't hear the difference between mics. Just another example that shows that it's not because you are a professionnal that you are good. And it's not because you record and mix in a Top Studio rather than in your home studio that costs 300 times less, that you're making good music. You can put me in Joel Robuchon's, Alain Ducasse's or Thierry Marx's kitchen, I will never cook like them !

Love this story : Sylvia Massy Gear Stories Column | Sylvia Massy Writes About Recording Prince

Today, a lot of people own high-end photography and video equipement (compared to what the average had 30 years ago), but when you look at what's on Flickr or YouTube, 95% of what is "published" just plain sucks.

You know what ? Just as some doctors should never operate, some engineers ... should probably try out fishing.

Cheers.
Reason for editing : fixed broken link.

Last edited by coffeecup77; 8th August 2020 at 12:37 AM..
Old 31st July 2020
  #84
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeecup77 View Post
Reason for editing : fixed broken link.
Thanks.

I spent the last 9 years wondering about that link...
Old 1st August 2020
  #85
Gear Maniac
 
coffeecup77's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Thanks.

I spent the last 9 years wondering about that link...

Well, now you know ! Now go back outside and play !!
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