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All these Neve knock-offs as "the real thing" Dual-Channel Preamps
Old 20th September 2011
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Smack your head all you want but no "pro" is going to use a GAP over a real 1073...Sorry to inform you of this.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duardo View Post
A real "pro" will use the tools at hand, whatever they may be...
Mmmmm-nope. That is completely wrong.

Of course, any pro engineer/producer is going to know what is in a studio that they are about to use, but that not withstanding...

If a real "pro" engineer/producer walks into a studio with a band, ready to record, and finds GAP and Avalon mic pres, a soundcraft mixing desk, a Chameleon Labs stereo bus compressor and M-Audio monitors, he/they are going to walk out and find another studio. He/they will NOT simply use the tools at hand.

Cheers.
Old 20th September 2011
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
We here these kinda statements all the time, but you never see any "pro" studios with a 10 racks full of GAP's ???..Up against the real thing, they will 100% of the time never be the right tool in a million dollar record.
I've already told you, I've done A/B tests against the real thing, and I found the GAP suited the singer/mic combo better. I had no vested interest (I didn't own one at the time), and you'd better believe I'd have used the "real" Neve had it sounded better or the same!

Ok, this wasn't a "million dollar" record (do they exist any more?)...I did use it on another record by a well known band over here, which would have been a several hundred thousand pounds record...does that count?

So that goes against your "100% of the time" statement...as for multi racks of GAPs, no that isn't likely to happen....but then the only studios I know with racks of pres that aren't desk preamps are when they have vintage racks of Neves, Calrecs, etc etc. No-one generally buys racks of the same pre unless it's their own studio - clients generally like a choice. I'd be happy to see a couple of GAPs in a rack in a tracking room as part of the spec, even if there's higher priced alternatives.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
...but it can't be argued they hold the patents and copywrites to all the Neve gear including the 1073. How many other audio companies are allowed by law to have "Neve" in their name ?
No - but it CAN be argued that the actual "name" is irrelevant. Who builds better versions of the U47? Telefunken, Neumann or Wagner/Flea? IE the company that holds the name, or the companies that are run by the guys who built the originals?

If you'd ever used a Neve V3/VR, you'd realise that even though they've got the same name, they're nothing like a "vintage" Neve, for better or worse, and it's largely irrelevant what name it's made under.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dandeurloo View Post
I have a good handle on whats in a neve and whats in many of the clones and most of them share the same circuit and parts. The difference is really splitting hairs.

I have used a number of real 1073 and they all sound different. Some are in great shape and some are in bad shape. I would gladly use any of the good clones over or next to a real one. I do! Its not worth missing a house payment over or losing any sleep.
Very strongly agree. Same with Mics - I'd rather have a "new" U47 that works and is reliable, than a vintage one that on it's day sounds 5% better but only works half the time, and breaks down. Difference between a hobby and a profession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duardo View Post
I don't think you'll ever see a "pro" studio with ten racks full of any one type of preamp. And what is a million-dollar record? If it's a record that has made a million dollars then there certainly are million-doller records that have been made with knockoffs. If it's a record that costs a million dollars to make...I don't believe those exist any more.

Professional engineers work in all sorts of studios, from huge rooms to small project studios. If you are a professional engineer who is hired to work on a record you will not refuse to work on that record because the studio doesn't have the preamps you want. Sure, you may ask to have them brought in, but if that comes out of your cut are you going to insist? And if you are buying the preamp for your own studio and money is tight, are you going to buy the Neve every time? It's clear that the answer is not always going to be "yes".

Besides, what do you think is important? The sound as you said earlier in the thread, or the name?
Yeah..I should have read this before posting really!
Old 20th September 2011
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Mmmmm-nope. That is completely wrong.

Of course, any pro engineer/producer is going to know what is in a studio that they are about to use, but that not withstanding...

If a real "pro" engineer/producer walks into a studio with a band, ready to record, and finds GAP and Avalon mic pres, a soundcraft mixing desk, a Chameleon Labs stereo bus compressor and M-Audio monitors, he/they are going to walk out and find another studio. He/they will NOT simply use the tools at hand.

Cheers.
I think that would depend on the engineer! As you say, generally the producer/engineer would have checked out the studio in advance, in fact the producer's job is partly to choose the studio.

But realistically, if I were hired to work in the above studio, I'd just get on with it. I'd bring my own monitors, and make sure I knew what I was hearing, but otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with the gear above. Why should I? I should be able to get a reasonable result - and if the band/project can't afford a better studio, that's not my concern - I'll do my best anyway.

At any rate, in the hypothetical situation above, the GAP/Avalon pres are NOT likely to be the sole limiting factor - I can't imagine the mic cupboard or room acoustics are going to be up to much either!

Conversely, if I hired someone and they walked out of a studio with a snobby attitude, i wouldn't be hiring them again - nor would I expect to be hired if it were me.
Old 20th September 2011
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_Hayat View Post
If a real "pro" engineer/producer walks into a studio with a band, ready to record, and finds GAP and Avalon mic pres, a soundcraft mixing desk, a Chameleon Labs stereo bus compressor and M-Audio monitors, he/they are going to walk out and find another studio. He/they will NOT simply use the tools at hand.

With all respect I must proof you wrong in my case.
I remember a recording were the clients came in short term but with big attitudes. Of course, they had an effective management. So those guys are worldwide known for eco-friendly entertainment and their symbiotic relationship to mushrooms. I would call them real Pro's.
We have no 1073 in the house and unfortunately the well-liked-by-Pro's Avalon was rented to someone who made it the other way around. 'Transforming a human voice into a Smurf voice' which is T(he)-Pain for me to be honest.
So big complains from the Blue Fraction about that, quiet by the rule' The smaller in lengths, the bigger the Napoleon Complex'. I tell you, I was close to let the cat into the studio.
But maybe it was just my lack of knowledge about their hood and such that put me off because I knew nothing about them.

So, even when we had only a scruffy Neve V-Rack (which is a heater as well and needs new caps all the 5 years) and not a single 1073 the guys have not walked out in the end. They were quite happy with the result when we pitched their voices down into the frequency spectrum of human hearing.
So Yay! Sometimes even Pro's agree to smaller guts for the greater good

Peace heh







Old 20th September 2011
  #35
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What a post! Yay! You have nothing better to do than put down other people whom you know nothing about? You sir are cool!

Ok, so I have no clue as to what I am talking about. Ok, if you say so - have your way, be happy.
Old 21st September 2011
  #36
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Quote:
If a real "pro" engineer/producer walks into a studio with a band, ready to record, and finds GAP and Avalon mic pres, a soundcraft mixing desk, a Chameleon Labs stereo bus compressor and M-Audio monitors, he/they are going to walk out and find another studio. He/they will NOT simply use the tools at hand.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. If we're talking about a producer who has a large budget and has their selection of professional studios then sure, they'll find a studio that has their tools of choice. But more and more these days producers put their own studios together so that they can pocked as much of the budget for their projects as they can, and while a studio is often chosen based on the equipment they have, a producer rarely is. And producers are looking at saving money just as much as anyone else, so if they think that a GAP, or a Vintech, or a BAE, or a Chameleon Labs preamp will give them the same (or better) results then why wouldn't they go that way?

Of if you're an engineer who is hired by an artist to come do some tracking at their studio...when you get there are you going to walk out? Especially with today's budgets, you might be surprised at how many name engineers are taking jobs like this.

Going back a few years...Roger Nichols used an 02R console for James Taylor's "Hourglass" album, which won a Grammy. I also recall reading that he went to Bela Fleck's place and did some recording there with blackface ADATs. Would you not consider him to be a real "pro"?
Old 21st September 2011
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Hate to be an arse and prove you wrong, but we have a rack of 10 Neves (1081s and 1066s, so ok not a 1073 though I'll be using a desk full tomorrow) at one of our studios.

They sound great. However, I did an A/B with the Neves against a GAP that was also there, and ended up going with the GAP - it worked better. This was at a multi-Grammy winner's studio (not that I think he had anything to do with the GAP, just that the Neves are in top notch condition).

My studio partner had the same experience independently, without me mentioning it.

On the strength of that, I bought a GAP73 and have used it on several "pro" records, plus on a multitude of independent and unsigned projects.

I'm no grammy winner (but I am a professional engineer working on records for signed and unsigned artists) and for sure I'd get a 1073 as well if I could afford it. But the GAP does what it does very well, it's kind of a total no-brainer when you consider what else is available at that price point, and it's not identical to a 1073. But it does provide a good quality sound, and holds it's own with preamps many times the price.

Sorry to inform you of this
Great sensible response - I love readings posts that just make sense.

As to the original poster - Not sure why you would even start a thread like this. Seems pointless to me. You should know by now...."If it sounds good, it is good."
Old 21st September 2011
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
I see all these posts, time and time again how great all these Neve knock-offs are and people recommending them (some never even used a real or knock-off!)..GTFOH !

Then all the "better then a real 1073" crap that follows

Get your money up and buy a real racked 1073 and stop being a cheap ass !!!



That is all...and yes I have my flame suit on heh
Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something.
Old 21st September 2011
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Exactly as I said in my first post, save money and get the real thing !

The GAP is a cheap, low cost Chinese knock of the 1073. In this field, nothing cheap is worth its weight sand.

Please don't renationalize your way outta this and say " well it's just another flavor" of a pre... It's a cheap knock off
Yawn.....
Old 21st September 2011
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zwatrif View Post
Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something.

Welcome to the Moan Zone!

Go try to remake some 70's Rock with your GAP's in your basement

hehheh
Old 21st September 2011
  #41
^ Let us see your studio... and rack of 1073's ; ) Talk is cheap.
Old 21st September 2011
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
That's just it, if you want the Neve sound, don't waste $1500 on a Vintech knock-off, say another $1500 and get the real thing.

Are you really getting close to a Neve with a $350 GAP knock-off ? IMO, nowhere near.

The music business is big money and this stuff is what sets the pros from the hobbyists...

my wallet says the 350 knock off is just fine
my ears have to agree
cause my wallet is bigger and meaner
Old 21st September 2011
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
What a post! Yay! You have nothing better to do than put down other people whom you know nothing about? You sir are cool!
C'mon I was not putting them THAT down. Those guys are already little
As I said, it maybe was just my lack of knowledge about their hood and such because I knew nothing about them.
I'm only cool on purpose but Thank you
Old 21st September 2011
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Welcome to the Moan Zone!

Go try to remake some 70's Rock with your GAP's in your basement

hehheh
Yawn..... Zzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzz.....
Old 21st September 2011
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zwatrif View Post
Yawn..... Zzzzzzzz Zzzzzzzzz.....
You came to the party way late...but its pretty obvious that your someone I pissed off earlier in this topic and ya logged in to your " I'm a talk **** and people won't know its me" account.

Never knew GS approved of bootlegs and copys !

The Moan Zone isn't even safe for moans anymore. You light pocket book guys should keep heart off your sleeve and stay under your real accounts !

Enjoy your bootlegs & Behringers....Save money to pay the light bill !
Old 21st September 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
^ Let us see your studio... and rack of 1073's ; ) Talk is cheap.
Where did you get that out of anything I posted ?

Reading way to far into this to find a personal attack..LOL !

Saving money and being cheap is cool for somethings, but not on gear....

1 thing worth $5k or 5k things worth $1..you pick
Old 21st September 2011
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Welcome to the Moan Zone!

Go try to remake some 70's Rock with your GAP's in your basement

hehheh
The gap73 would not be the limiting factor here....easily possible if you're a good engineer....
Old 21st September 2011
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
The gap73 would not be the limiting factor here....easily possible if you're a good engineer....
That was never the argument.

People got offended that I said they are being cheap asses by buying knock-off's and pointing out their cheap bootleg purchases is NOT comparable to a real 1073, no mater even if "73" is in the name of the product.

Why a kit Ferrari $100,000's of dollars cheaper then a REAL one ?

Why is a kit A/C Cobra $100,000's of dollars cheaper then a REAL one ?


Point is if your happy with your bootleg "1073" good for you, but just remember everytime you use it that it is NOT a real Neve 1073.

Quote:
"With circuitry based on the venerable Neve 1073 preamp, considered among the best-sounding preamps of all time, the Golden Age Project PRE-73 MKII version delivers the same vintage sound with lower noise and wider dynamic range"
Quote:
"Okay, it's not a Neve, or even a Neve Campbell, but it does deliver the audio goods. Order today!"
How is this not snake oil for $350 ?

Theres "mods" avalible for it..Its not that good form the start...Neve for $350 ?!
Old 21st September 2011
  #49
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Hey 302efi

fair enough, I see where you coming from but I still have not the whole picture. So how would you cope with fake boobies for example? The boobies-kit is more expensive than the real ones.
Old 21st September 2011
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Saving money and being cheap is cool for somethings, but not on gear....

1 thing worth $5k or 5k things worth $1..you pick
That's a totally dumb and pointless argument. What's going to amplify 5 mics better, one $5k pres, or 5 $1k things? what's going to give a better result on a drum kit in the vast majority of cases - 8-10 GAP73s or 2 1073s? Assuming we're working on a modern day recording for clients, not trying to do super retro rock? My point is even if I bought a 1073 (and if I thought it would make a massive difference I WOULD buy one), I wouldn't sell the GAP73. Ignore the name for a moment - it's just a different pre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
That was never the argument.
Then why make it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
People got offended that I said they are being cheap asses by buying knock-off's and pointing out their cheap bootleg purchases is NOT comparable to a real 1073, no mater even if "73" is in the name of the product.
As I've already pointed out (and you haven't yet acknowledged), at least twice in my career so far it's been BETTER than the original for a given purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Why a kit Ferrari $100,000's of dollars cheaper then a REAL one ?

Why is a kit A/C Cobra $100,000's of dollars cheaper then a REAL one ?
Yawn...irrelevant car comparisons again. you should be comparing a different make of car, 1/2 the price but with similar specs (and they do exist), then asking which one is right for your race day. If you ever watch Top Gear, you'll see that even high performance sports cars have failings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Point is if your happy with your bootleg "1073" good for you, but just remember everytime you use it that it is NOT a real Neve 1073.
And I say AGAIN, if I thought it was that important I had a real one, I'd buy a real one.

You're forgetting one crucial thing - the Neve 1073 DPA is NOT a "real" 1073. It's just as much a remake as everything else. It may have the Neve name, but it's not built by Rupert Neve's company, there's no real reason why it should be any closer to a vintage Neve than any clone since the circuit designs are widely available, and there ARE circuit differences between the original and "new" 1073s. Likewise, there ARE sound differences. So - are you saying buy the 1073 DPA because it has the Neve name, or hold out for an original 1073 (or 1074, 1066 etc - all very similar in the mic pre section) since otherwise you're just being a cheapskate?

Much as I like the 1073DPA, you are paying a markup for the Neve name - something that the clones don't have to charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
How is this not snake oil for $350 ?
from wiki:

Snake oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The expression is also applied metaphorically to any product with exaggerated marketing but questionable and/or unverifiable quality or benefit."

You have a slight point about the marketing, although I'd argue it's more the users than the company - I've got the box in front of me, and they state it's "similar to the pre-amp section in the classical 1073 module". They DON'T say it's "the same but a quarter of the price!". There's NO claim on the box that I think the product does not live up to.

However, it's very easy to verify the quality or benefit - try the f**ker! I did...and it worked, and AS I'VE POINTED OUT it was BETTER than the supposed original on some sources! For me, in that situation! So no - most definitely NOT snake oil, at least according to the dictionary definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Theres "mods" avalible for it..Its not that good form the start...Neve for $350 ?!
to be honest with you, I like mine as it is - I don't feel the need to mod it. It certainly IS good from the start, and for the price IMO unbeatable - I paid close to the same for a focusrite trakmaster a few years ago! Facepalm all you like...
Old 21st September 2011
  #51
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This site is baffling. Such an obsession with consumerism! Have you ever attempted to track something and found yourself thinking "drat! This knock off is just not cutting it- fugg it, I'm done here!"

You're doing it wrong. No preamp will affect change as much as moving the mic around- or just fixing the actual source.

Not to be a sonafabitch, but if what concerns you is the pedigree and badgeing on your gear, enough to rant about others using less- I can say without hesitation, that when discussing that grand ole topic of what's wrong with modern "production"- your mindset and concern over these things is one of the first things that come to mind.
Old 21st September 2011
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
Hey 302efi

fair enough, I see where you coming from but I still have not the whole picture. So how would you cope with fake boobies for example? The kit here is more expensive than the real ones.
How I cope with them? I avoid them and decide to be with girls with real tits. Simple.
Old 21st September 2011
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
Reading way to far into this to find a personal attack..LOL !

Saving money and being cheap is cool for somethings, but not on gear....
You missed the -> ; )

Anyway I agree to strive for the best.. but certainly buying what you can afford and doing your best with it is the key.

$4000 for a 1073. There's much better ways to spend your money.
Have you ever heard one?
Old 21st September 2011
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
$4000 for a 1073. There's much better ways to spend your money.
Have you ever heard one?
It's definitely a lot of money, and honestly, for me, the most important part is the EQ, not the Pre! There are lots of cheaper alternatives.
Old 21st September 2011
  #55
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Quote:
People got offended that I said they are being cheap asses by buying knock-off's and pointing out their cheap bootleg purchases is NOT comparable to a real 1073, no mater even if "73" is in the name of the product.
Really, I don't think that is offending anyone. If anything, you are the one who seems to be offended by people who use Neve clones. Why are you so concerned with trying to convince people that a preamp which may be anywhere from "remotely resembling" to "indistinguishable from" a "real" 1073 is not comparable?

Quote:
Point is if your happy with your bootleg "1073" good for you, but just remember everytime you use it that it is NOT a real Neve 1073.
If someone is happy with their clone (not a bootleg...there is a difference), they don't care that it's not a "real" 1073. So why do you?
Old 21st September 2011
  #56
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Not to drag this out but I don't see all that many people really caring about their GAP Pre 73 stacking up to a Neve. So many people have the same mentality as I do. I have a GAP, I like it, and it does what I need. I recommend it to anyone for a low dollar preamp that will give you more than you should expect for the money. At the end of the day, it's just a really good product for the money.

I honestly wish people would just make good preamps without having to be a "clone", I am not interested in a clone, I just don't mind having an alternative that works to high end gear. I am not against high end gear either, I just don't need an immaculate front end for what I do.
Old 21st September 2011
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zwatrif View Post
Yawn.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Yawn...
Hmm..found whos alternative personality that was after all. Since you trolled earlier, I respond to you no more. Be a man and only use one account cheap ass.



*** Mods you can close this topic now that people are gonna start trolling on different accounts ***
Old 21st September 2011
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302efi View Post
You came to the party way late...but its pretty obvious that your someone I pissed off earlier in this topic and ya logged in to your " I'm a talk **** and people won't know its me" account.

Never knew GS approved of bootlegs and copys !

The Moan Zone isn't even safe for moans anymore. You light pocket book guys should keep heart off your sleeve and stay under your real accounts !

Enjoy your bootlegs & Behringers....Save money to pay the light bill !
Super-Troll!

Lots of pathetic posts on GS and yours is just another one of them.

I truly don't understand the point of your original post, but I do understand that your life is a pathetic one!
Old 22nd September 2011
  #59
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Real vintage 1272's can be had off ebay for quite cheap. I'm sure a GAP73 will work fine, and any unique tone can be utilized in a unique way. Just because you found one use for a GAP73, does not mean you would choose to record an entire album using just that one pre!!
Old 22nd September 2011
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbakron View Post
I'm sure a GAP73 will work fine, and any unique tone can be utilized in a unique way.
This is a rationalization of a $350 "Neve" purchase. "I bought it as a "Neve" but if it sux, it's still a different tone" <<<<<<< Trash



This topic got side tracked to the GAP since someone mentioned it first. It's so bottem end, low budget and entry I wasn't even looking at that. I was gone after bootlegs marketed with the cute "almost" copies of the buttons and knobs and even the color. Trying real hard, no !?

If you want a 1073, spend the money and buy a real one.
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