The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
ITB: it's still a lie Dynamics Plugins
Old 22nd June 2011
  #91
Lives for gear
I absolutey love threads like this, because they are guarunteed to garner responses like this one.

Dude, do you really believe everything you read ? The fact is that none of us have any idea what was truly involved in making any of these recordings. They may have used nothing but a mackie 1604 and a few sm57s, or then again maybe there was a WALL of outboard in the chain BEFORE anything even made its way into the box that they just casually forgot to mention. The FACT is that we will never know !!

To say that any of these records are done ITB is a completely meaningless statement because if you were not there personally then you have NO IDEA what was actually done. Is it ITB if during tracking a seasoned engineer had a WALL of outboard where he tweaked to his heart's content (basically doing EVERYTHING that would have been done in the mixing stage on a console BEFORE any of the tracks ever even hit the A/D) and then sets all the faders at unity in PT and prints the mix with hardly any plugin processing at all ???

Engineers and music producers are some of the most notorious liars that have ever existed in the human family. And there is indeed "a sucker born every minute" if you believe anything they say at all !!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by tha]-[acksaw View Post
Check out the most recent Black Keys album "Brothers". Mixed by Tchad Blake ITB. He even used some digital samples for some of the drums. Its got an amazing sound, as most of their stuff did. This was the first album where they really embraced digital.

Also Tom Petty's most recent album "Mojo". For being recorded and mixed ITB, it's has some amazing mojo for sure. They also cut the whole thing live in one room, in their rehearsal space they call "The Clubhouse". Not much acoustic treatment, if any. They had rugs on mic stands surrounding Tom while he cut live vocals. The album sound is amazing.

There are also a good deal of people mixing top chart hits ITB, out in Nashville. I could fire you a list of mixes, but that's what Google is for. Haha!

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Gearslutz.com App
Old 22nd June 2011
  #92
Lives for gear
 

interesting ... well, if you're talking about linear pcm (like .wav), then if it's the same length, bd and sr it will be the same size ... there's nothing magical about analogue processing that would negate the basics of storing recorded data digitally

if you're talking about comparing compressed files then maybe ... but ...
Old 22nd June 2011
  #93
Lives for gear
 
tha]-[acksaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Stag View Post
Gee, I'd like to see how they pulled THAT one off...

Sorry, couldn't resist!
HAHA! Maybe I'm missing something here. When I say ITB, the box part refers to the Computer. So, you can record and mix ITB.

Right?
Old 22nd June 2011
  #94
Lives for gear
 
ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisbude View Post
when I process a stereo mix outboard, my mix will be larger (megabytes). same procedure with plugin will give me same size. so whats about this?
Cocaine's a hell of a drug!


Frank
Old 22nd June 2011
  #95
Lives for gear
 
filipv's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBeauty View Post
And i think that only u could get good results ITB if the source is recorded with great preamps in a very good environment..
And i also think that only u could get good results OTB if the source is recorded with great preamps in a very good environment.

jeez
Old 22nd June 2011
  #96
Lives for gear
 
tha]-[acksaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
We're not talking small differences here, rent an API2500 for the weekend and play with the waves API collection, then come back.
What's a large and small difference in totally subjective. A noob might say a plugin sounds very close, while a more experienced engineer might say the difference is HUGE. And the inverse is true. It's all subjective.

I have an MBox and a Rosetta 800. I feel the difference in quality is hardly small. But I'd hardly say it's HUGE either. There is a noticeable difference, but how BIG will depend on the listener. At the same time, I'm pretty darn sure that feeding outboard through my Rosetta will generate a different result then if it came from the MBox. Which effects the end result. That's all I'm saying. Your position, that there is a HUGE difference, isn't the definitive conclusion.

With regard to the API stuff, I don't need to rent anything. I spend a good deal of time tracking and mixing on an API Vision every year. I do have to say that the Waves API 2500 is a plugin I never end up using. I don't like the way it sounds. Others love it. However, I recorded a blues session in Tennessee last year on an API Vision. I never did a final mix on it, but I did some fast mixing to help with tracking overdubs. I used the API 560 EQ on the console for Kick and Bass. I was able to carve them out real well, separating them from each other. When I got back to my studio to mix, I loaded up the Waves API 560 and tossed it on the bass and kick, tossed in the settings I had on the console, and BAM! I was back in business. Was the sound 100% close, I can't say for sure. Never did a proper A/B. But I do know that I loaded up the settings and had the sound I was looking for. That sound made the final mix, cause it's just what the doctor ordered. So, there is a prime example of an modeled plugin taking the place of it's hardware counterpart with ease. But it's still just MY perception. Which is all any of us have.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #97
Harmless Wacko
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 View Post
Engineers and music producers are some of the most notorious liars that have ever existed in the human family. And there is indeed "a sucker born every minute" if you believe anything they say at all !!!
Nonsense!

Slipperman Reality of the Camen Islands Financial Group has this fine example of a NYC bridge currently available to pre-qualified buyers.

ITB: it's still a lie-brooklyn-bridge.jpg


Unlimited earning potential and unquestionably perfect location.

Bridge simulations and lesser bridges pale in comparison.

No financing. Cash deals only.

$163 Million USD or B/O.

Early bird gets the whaddayacallit.

SM.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #98
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post

Does that mean plugins are bad? NO definately not, they are good in certain things, however succesfully emulating hardware isn't one of them.

And everybody who tells differently has clearly never had the opprotunity to work with some high quality outboard.
I agree that emulations don't do their hardware components justice...but your last comment is severely incorrect IMO as a lot of the time I find uses for the emulations that the hardware could never do and I have unlimited instances...so the fact that they don;t emulate well is moot...IOW...who cares?
Old 23rd June 2011
  #99
Lives for gear
 
tha]-[acksaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 View Post
I absolutey love threads like this, because they are guarunteed to garner responses like this one.

Dude, do you really believe everything you read ? The fact is that none of us have any idea what was truly involved in making any of these recordings. They may have used nothing but a mackie 1604 and a few sm57s, or then again maybe there was a WALL of outboard in the chain BEFORE anything even made its way into the box that they just casually forgot to mention. The FACT is that we will never know !!

To say that any of these records are done ITB is a completely meaningless statement because if you were not there personally then you have NO IDEA what was actually done. Is it ITB if during tracking a seasoned engineer had a WALL of outboard where he tweaked to his heart's content (basically doing EVERYTHING that would have been done in the mixing stage on a console BEFORE any of the tracks ever even hit the A/D) and then sets all the faders at unity in PT and prints the mix with hardly any plugin processing at all ???

Engineers and music producers are some of the most notorious liars that have ever existed in the human family. And there is indeed "a sucker born every minute" if you believe anything they say at all !!!
100% understand what you are saying. But whether there is mass outboard being used for tracking in those ITB mixes, or how much extra mixing was done after tracking, none of us will know. I totally here you.

But I have read interviews, and yes, people can lie about what they use. But me starting that a mix was done ITB per an interview with the mixer has more clout and weight then you stating that engineers are liars and then suggesting that the examples I provided are examples of that lying. Non of us know. But an interview will be a better source of a truth then 100% across the board speculation.

However you can read the Tchad Blake interviews and see that he clearly has accepted digital as his method. And even goes into specifics about the digital processes used in the Black Keys mix. Some of those techniques were one that the BK's would have never used prior, due to this mass love for analog. I'm implying nothing more then, there are great mixers who get great vibe and results mixing ITB. I'm not suggesting anything beyond that.

Forgive me if my post pissed you off. Not my intention. And I'm not here to try and make stuff up or spread lies.

And maybe I need to be clear... I FREAKIN' LOVE HARDWARE!!
Old 23rd June 2011
  #100
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipperman View Post
$163 Million USD
Done. But you have to throw in your slippers as well. I kinda want them.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #101
007
Lives for gear
 
007's Avatar
 

Dunno, there's nothing I like more than sharing a tune I've done and not a single person asking me what processing was used, much less if it was outboard or plugins. They just like the tune, I watch them enjoy it and smile.

Job done.
Attached Thumbnails
ITB: it's still a lie-yaaawn.jpeg  
Old 23rd June 2011
  #102
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
We're not talking small differences here, rent an API2500 for the weekend and play with the waves API collection, then come back.
Don't need to. Know the answer already. But hey, why don't you change the name of your thread to WAVES : it's still a lie. That would be more on target.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #103
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
I just want my own little pandemonium, don't you get it?
Yeah, I get it. That's why I'm checking out of this joke of a thread. You know more than Michael Brauer, so what's left to comment on.......
Old 23rd June 2011
  #104
Harmless Wacko
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Yeah, I get it. That's why I'm checking out of this joke of a thread. You know more than Michael Brauer, so what's left to comment on.......
Bill.

To be totally fair.

I humorously suggest you might wanna review your collection of Mix magazines from the mid 80's thru the late 90's and see a BEWILDERING array of "golden eared marquee guys" issuing rousing endorsements of all kinza audio products that, in the long game, turned out to be things now commonly regarded as absolutely TERRIBLE sounding technologies.

Like ADAT for starters.

EVERYBODY is "earning a living" and "exploiting opportunity".

The new hammer is often provided at a price point somewhere between cheap and free.

And it's new.

And yer good.

So you use it.

And, in good conscience and with the best of intentions... you even recommend others use it.

'Cause it's working for ya.

Then later, you have occasion to go back and use the old hammer, and ya think to yerself...

"Holy sh*t... this old hammer KILLS that new hammer, WTF was I THINKING?".

WHADDA YA GONNA DO?


Issue a "product opinion retraction" press statement?

I'm thinking no.

No. Yer gonna go back to using the old hammer, or search for yet ANOTHER hammer... or SOMETHING.

But yer probably not going to go deep into public pronouncements of your HUMAN FALLIBILITY.

Just a thought or two on the practical outgrowths/outcomes of the intersections of skill, chance, opportunity, critical reasoning and human nature during the course of one's career in AE.


Best regards,

SM.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by ded4now View Post
This makes me wonder...

Is processed cheese supposed to 'replace' regular cheese, or 'simulate' it?

I bought some cheese last week that said it was 'simulated cheese' flavor... not sure if it was trying to REPLACE regular cheese or just provide a cheaper alternative or whatever.

This stuff confuses me...
your analogy is rather cheesy heh
Old 23rd June 2011
  #106
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
this is my favourite kind of amusingly hypocritical post heh

nobody is forcing you to read this stuff lol ... you're wasting your own time
it's not hypocritical. i log on here so i can gain some more knowledge and share some insight on things that matter.

it's a huge downer that this forum has more and more useless topics (this being the biggest!). like do we really need to discuss this? really?

unless you manufacture the stuff, just shut up already.

and yes, i am wasting my own time...
Old 23rd June 2011
  #107
Lives for gear
 
AcoosticZoo's Avatar
Do you believe in Science or Myths?

If you can hear the difference between analog/hardware vs digital then you to pick the better one - but only if it fits your workflow/budget.


I'd used plugins even if some hardware sounds better. Why? workflow and cost. And that's no lie. Some software beats out hardware too.

Mp3's, Plugins are here, embrace the trend. Convenience is a powerful factor - simple, quick and cheap. Quality is important too, but people buy what they can afford and what's convenient.

Both camps are right. Yea. user disgretion on a Case by Case basis.

A Lie could become your reality if you repeat it enough times.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com
Old 23rd June 2011
  #108
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipperman View Post
Bill.

To be totally fair.

I humorously suggest you might wanna review your collection of Mix magazines from the mid 80's thru the late 90's and see a BEWILDERING array of "golden eared marquee guys"
Long gone I'm afraid. I'm tired of the blah, blah, blah. When someone says "can't", my respect for them goes down. I'm not making a discernment either way. To the best of my knowledge, M. Brauer is not endorsing nor recommending UAD. He was commenting on a test he did. Either way, I could care less. The OP is just about making drama for himself, and the only reason I'm here is to answer you out of respect.

Use what works.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #109
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post
Meticiously engineered, perfect emulation, most sought after hardware, sounds like outboard. Today after 15 years of VST(i) dissapointments i can confidently say: Plugins are still not there yet. And i doubt seriously if they will ever be.

Does that mean plugins are bad? NO definately not, they are good in certain things, however succesfully emulating hardware isn't one of them.

And everybody who tells differently has clearly never had the opprotunity to work with some high quality outboard.

There are many threads explaining pro's and cons in depth, just wanted to share above p.o.v.

Enjoy!
Why do I want to emulate anything?
Especially if it had defects?

isnt the goal better quality ? mine is.

VSTis can do things better.
Would you run a wax cylinder or a 78 emulator ?
Why emulate any old piece of hardware when you can do better??
Old 23rd June 2011
  #110
Lives for gear
 
Mr.HOLMES's Avatar
Wink A good spice-blend is more tasty.

For evening meal today.

First I eat my UAD 1 express card = digital.
Second I eat my SSL 4000 G compressor = hardware.

I think both will have a nice flavor if I mix em up.
Because I hate cooking with only a single spice....

A good spice-blend is more tasty to me.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #111
Lives for gear
 

I just recently started using Ableton Live and I have never used a DAW before. I am really impressed with its effects, compression reverb etc. I have always been otb with tape and Radar Neotek etc.

Maybe my ears are going bad but I think the sound quality of the plugins built into Live are extremely good.

If this is any indication of how even obviously better plug-ins sound I do not see why someone who is good at itb mixing would not be happy there.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #112
Lives for gear
 
ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCDBM View Post

Does that mean plugins are bad? NO definately not, they are good in certain things, however succesfully emulating hardware isn't one of them.

And everybody who tells differently has clearly never had the opprotunity to work with some high quality outboard.
I do find it interesting though that you seem to think that the plug-in SSL X-Verb does what the Lexicon 480L does.

Here's your post to refresh you.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/6775396-post69.html

Of course at the end you're quick to say that no plug is near a high-end outboard such as a Lexi PCM9x. This contradicts your earlier statement that the SSL X-Verb is the equal of the Lexi 480L. Or do you think the Lexi PCM 9x is better then both the X-Verb AND the Lexi 480L?

Frank
Old 23rd June 2011
  #113
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 

Old 23rd June 2011
  #114
Lives for gear
 
AcoosticZoo's Avatar
Old 23rd June 2011
  #115
Lives for gear
Unless we are talking about improved fidelity, transparency, in the Sheffield sense, "Better" is a subjective evaluation depending on how something appeals to one's tastes. Tastes that are informed by listening to the coloration and artifacts of the gear used to make the music we grew up on.

Originally, the electric guitar was invented to try and make an acoustic guitar louder. But it didn't sound much like an acoustic. And over the years, the louder folks turned it up, the further away from an acoustic guitar it sounded. Now, most folks are accustomed to the sound of a Les Paul into a tube amp. And although a Parker Fly into a Line 6 Spyder is probably higher fidelity and more accurate, the Les Paul is the sound of rock and roll (unless you're a Fender person) and the "warmth" and other colorations are what sound "right" to most people.

If you asked a guitar player in 67 whether a Gibson 335 sounded better than a Harmony Meteor, the answer would be an unequivocal "of course". But now we have this reverse vintage lust where some kid who's seen a picture of some old blues guy playing a Kay or Harmony, and is trying to reproduce that sound in order to be authentic, will say the Harmony sounds "better".

Same thing happens with audio gear. How many posts have talked about all the great hits that were made on SSL desks? When those desks came out, experienced engineers cried to get that thing with the computer in it away from me, it sounds horrible. But cost efficiency won out and the speed of workflow triumphed over sound quality. And so you have a sound imprinted on folks over a couple of decades. The sonic signature of their favorite songs.

Although at heart I'm a musician who believes that tone is in the heart and fingers. And an audiophile who wants to hear though all the gear to the truest conveyance of those hearts and fingers. I recognize that most recording is an illusion to create an esthetically pleasing event. Realism is secondary. The emotional impact of production over just presenting the musicians as they are. Augmenting them if you will.

And so technology marches on. And slowly the colorations and artifacts that we grew up disappear. And it sounds wrong. So the retro movement kicks in to try and restore that familiar sound.

In a way it's kind of funny. If you transported a bunch of BBC or Capitol engineers out of the '50s to now and let them read some of these threads, they'd be shaking their heads. Years of fighting with temperamental equipment when you can reliably and repeatably get the effects you want by twisting some encoders on an interface? Absence of all those artifacts they've been trying to work around? Where do I sign up?

It's like when some kid comes up to me proudly showing off his "vintage" Harmony Meteor (which someone did a couple of months ago) and how great it is. Gaaa! I played one in 67. I have a 335 now. I can roll off tones, muff strings and get it to have that choked stuffy sound of the Harmony, or I can get clear rich tones from it that the Harmony could never manage.

It's interesting to look at the bass guitar world. While there is still a fringe of "trad" folks with old Fender Precisions and flat wound strings, the bass world embraced technology and advanced concepts. Creating broader sound capabilities and playability that surpasses what most guitarists could accomplish in the '60s.

Plus la change, plus la meme chose.
Old 23rd June 2011
  #116
Aof
Gear Maniac
 

I am a little confused, so, when Neo was in The Matrix, music sounded like sh!t because hardware was actually a simulation of real life hardware and not real hardware? They were like... you know... plug-ins?!?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ded4now View Post
I bought some cheese last week that said it was 'simulated cheese' flavor... not sure if it was trying to REPLACE regular cheese or just provide a cheaper alternative or whatever.
This stuff confuses me...
Simulated cheese???
Is that for real???
Old 23rd June 2011
  #117
Lives for gear
 
tha]-[acksaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aof View Post
I am a little confused, so, when Neo was in The Matrix, music sounded like sh!t because hardware was actually a simulation of real life hardware and not real hardware?
Ya, how do the Machines know what Tasty Wheat tastes like? heh
Old 23rd June 2011
  #118
Gear maniac
 
zwatrif's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ludaluda View Post
After working ITB for years, I switched to outboard and I will never look back.

I agree with OP, analog rules, digital is sterile, agressive, sibilant, annoying, harsh, lifeless, bottomless...do I need to go on?

I made the best songs ever on outboard gear. Digital is a never ending quest to get the "right" sound, yet it never happens.

ANALOG RULES!
Yawn.....zzzzzzzzzzz
Old 23rd June 2011
  #119
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

None of the plugs sound like the hardware they're emulating, none of the tape sims sound like tape, none of the console emulations sound like consoles. Big deal. I'd like to think that this is no longer news. It's all just a palette of colors to use as you see fit. It's a new world, with new sounds and new ideas. Nice to refer to the past as a touchstone, but the ship is sailing so you better hop on.

I have my favorite plugin eqs and compressors and I don't think in terms of what they're supposed to be imitating. I've used them enough to where I understand each one's unique identity and have a sense of how a particular one might be the right tool in a given situation, and reach for it accordingly.

Tracks can fall together in different ways now, to very good effect.

-R
Old 23rd June 2011
  #120
Lives for gear
 
Analogue Mastering's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
It's funny how people feel offended by the OP.
And start to defend their p.o.v. (+ hammering on 20+ other ITB points i.d never made)

Never said software sucks, only mentioned that software piggyback riding harware heroes, still doesn't deliver. Despite all ****ty marketing efforts.

Bit suprised to read all that frustration and people seeking reassurance, making sure that they explain extensively that they made "the right choice" (topic has never been on audio quality of VST's or DAWs in general) heh Then one guys is saying for the price of renting an API i can buy the plugins. That's the same as saying, for the price of renting a Ferrari,i can buy a year round busspass.....

Should have known this discussion wouldn't work as 99% of the guys responding here just lack the experience to deliver an informed contribution around the OP.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
mdjice / So much gear, so little time
55
jamie v / Electronic Music Instruments and Electronic Music Production
21

Forum Jump
Forum Jump