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People who hate pop music (becuase of the name Pop) Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 3rd April 2010
  #91
Gear Maniac
 

There are only two kinds of music- well written and bad such. Everyone who claims rock/jazz/pop etc. is better than pop/jazz/rock is an idiot. Of course many factors form your preference but a good song is a good song and a bad one is...well, bad! A well writen/produced song in any genre is equally enjoyable and a bad one is equaly unbearable. I think today it's more complicated because of all those "other non-musical" factors contributing to success of a song/genre but again the definition of a good/bad song sees no styles or genres. I am a hardcore POP oriented in terms of what is closest to my emotional wave-lenght and love Britney's (the Max Martin period) sound but a gun to my head couldn't make me listen to the so called thing K$sha. Both POP. In respond to some posts here, I don't agree that new styles are hated by definition - disco (mostly) and new wave sold more albums than anything else and if it never made it to the US (one of the top 10 selling producers of all times never sold a single copy in the US) doesn't mean the rest of the world didn't listen to it. World>US...So let the haters hate whatever they want, they'll always be a majority, the rest of us let's just enjoy good MUSIC, let it be in many colors (sounds)!
Old 3rd April 2010
  #92
Gear Nut
 

Pop music is in constant evolution. Now R&B, hip-hop, dance, some rock and most country, all pop to me. Pop is the music of the mass and is very accessible. All styles are in evolution and will flirt with pop.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #93
Gear Head
 

I think this was a great thread and I think its something that everyone should think about when being creative with music.

I see two problems:

1. Unoriginal producers doing pop for pops sake and using eg autotune to copy someone elses original idea exactly. (But everyone does this to some extent.)

2. Music snobs who think that good music can somehow stop being good music if the number of people who appreciate it goes above a certain number.(can't stand this nonsense)

All really good music is pop or pop waiting to happen. Unfortunately all pop music is not necessarily good music because of 1 & 2 above.

I reckon any given Pop song is either an example of the best music in the world or imitation of the best music in the world.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #94
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djanthonyw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSkool View Post
beatmaking
Old 3rd April 2010
  #95
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djanthonyw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delré View Post
Now R&B, hip-hop, dance, some rock and most country, all pop to me.
I agree.

Whenever I have gigs they fall into two categories... my "real" gigs that are at actual nightclubs and then there's my regular top 40 residency in Boston.

This is how I have my music organized...



Guess where all of the "hip hop" and "rap" is...
Old 4th April 2010
  #96
Gear Maniac
 

I personally think that some of the best pop music since the 70's has been coming out in the last decade or so, and in every genre imaginable. **** if you'll see it in the top 40 though...

The reason I dislike most top 40 stuff right now is that a lot of it tends to sound very similar. They seem to fit into various molds and they never seem to do anything too daring to break out of that mold.

A lot of it seems to be coming from what they feel is the sound of the day. They'll rarely try anything new - for fear of kids not being into the stuff because it doesn't sound like everything else out there right now.

There rarely tends to be any real intellect, non-forced sounding emotional impact, experimentation in structure, etc. It often caters to the lowest common denominator in terms of intelligence. Because of this, there is rarely anything challenging. The songs never allow the listener any patience or growth. They have to hit you over the head with hooks in every section, rather than letting the song build up to a more rewarding hook.

I can't stand the production a lot of the time. Sample-replaced drums sound so un-emotional and stale to me. (I've heard amazingly creative drum machine parts and sounds in non-mainstream music.) Auto-tune is a trend that will horribly date a lot of music coming out right now in a few decades. (There are so many amazing artists that don't use auto-tune if you look past the big sellers)

Most top 40 radio right now seems to be very heavy on a Euro-club techno electro-pop thing right now. Which is fine if you like clubbing.

I don't think a lot of people realize that there are alternatives though, when you want to listen to music that avoids cliches, might make you feel something, or change the way you think about things, or establish new sounds and new ways of doing things.

Go to a music festival and listen to some of the artists who may not be billed right at the top. Read music blogs and columns that won't just cover what's selling, but will rave about music that is actually interesting and new.

There is sooooo much amazing music out there.

Here's a new band I just discovered. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_lcZn7SUTIl' This song is gorgeous and ethereal.
Old 5th July 2010
  #97
Gear Addict
 

As any empire or major civilization begins to die, the art, general character and standards in almost all respects crumble right along with it. (I bet when Nero fiddled it was some ****ty pop tune, "Kissus My Glorius Arsendius" or some slag such as that which assaults our sensibilities today.) It's nothing new, nor has it anything to do with politics or religion in any direct way. Just people being people, us being ourselves. It's happened over and over again ever since we first stood up on our hind legs on this big old dirt clod and made camp. As the world shrinks these things must by the simple laws of physics manifest themselves more and more globally in direct proportion to this shrinkage. That's why it seems so big to all of us everywhere today. The beautiful thing is that from the rubble will always rise yet another explosion of greatness, a civilization loftier, groovier and greater than anything seen before, which in turn will finally rot from the inside out too, spawning another and another until finally the sun puts his light out for the last time and goes to bed.

So cheer up! Today's pop isn't the end of the world. We all just happen to be on the dirty side of the hurricane these days. Give it a hundred or two years and most everything will be right as rain again. To keep one's sanity it might make sense right now to create our art with our eyes not focused on today, but rather on the ages. Also don't forget that on the observational/spectatorial side of things that there are thousands of years' worth of just exactly that for us to dip our art-thirsty souls into. It's a rich world, all in all. Nobody's going to remember our current crop of embarrassing goo, but they'll damn sure ooh and ahh over the real deal till the end of time - from time to time, that is.

Beddy-byes. G'night.
Old 16th July 2010
  #98
Gear Maniac
 

I once debated with an ex girlfriend because she said she didn't like Tom Petty because "he's too poppy" and right at that same time she was at the bonnaroo festival watching Beck perform and had to go because he started to play his song "Loser"...ha! so yeah, people are my heroes, they know things...
Old 19th July 2010
  #99
Here for the gear
 

You know what it is silly that people hate pop music, i myself fall under this categorie really.
I'll listen to really anything hardcore punk to jazz but when it comes to pop i feel a little bit ashamed for listening to it.


Obviously its good to listen to music from all genres so i also feel obliged to do so and will delve into pop music but i still feel slightly guilty for listening without any real reason to do so.
Old 1st April 2011
  #100
Here for the gear
 

Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman View Post
I think many of the people who claim to hate pop music secretly listen to Lady Gaga and Britney Spears. I really think that some people claim to hate pop because they think it's cool to do so or that it makes them somehow more intellectual. Now that's not to say that there aren't people who just hate it and won't listen to it because they don't like the style. I respect that. But to hate pop just because it's called pop is a little strange to me. To each his own, I guess.
This is ridiculous.

Yes, it is painful fot me to admit that some people just listen to rock to appear cool, but this is ""bu"" in my case.

I listen to black metal for no other reason than to enjoy it, and when I find myself secretly listening to lay gaga then I'll be damned by Satan. I HATE pop not only because it is named pop, but because it is repetitive, mindless, tasteless, annoying, repetitive, talentless, repetitive, headache-inflicting, homosexual, based simply around money and repetitive.

While metal, on the other hand, usually has a deep meaning, requires skill, is beautiful, has very little repetition, keeps its own gender, calming and is for its own sake.

But really, if I ever listen to pop in secret or just listen to metal to appear cool, then I am a bloody pink ballerina.
Old 1st April 2011
  #101
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lettenmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by complex View Post
Hi, now i been on most major music forum and i have noticed that there is a huge hate for music such as Brittney spear, lady gaga, etc and other music which is in the charts. Now what i dont get is the fact it is there is becuase it is:

1. easy to listen to

2. catchy

3. good melodies

4. good structure

5. good engineering

6. really well produced

now surley that is all the things a good song should be. are these people (there on GS as well) i bit Dim? why do they not want to make good songs? now i know that not all songs are in the charts are good and i am aware that alot of it is PR and Image, but surley even the occasional really musical stuff breaks through for what it truley is and shines on the charts aswell, as well as your prefered genre of choice. So i don't get why people have so much beef with it, are they jelouse? or is it becuase it is ascociated with such things as young kids, teen age girls and such things that might not be exactly manly listening to (you dont hear many wrestler listening to Brittney spear or lady gaga) which i have noticed with friends they will not listen to popy stuff(purely on principle with out giving it a chance), they label it crap before they even give the music a chance. I think that a good producer and engineer will listen to all type of music and learn to love it for what it is from lady gaga to ten masked men, from dr dre to hybrid and edvard grieg to pendulum, so why has this stero type come over so many people. is it a domino effect that one (Supposedly cool) person says it crap so all his little followers say it rubbish with out giving it a chance? what your thought on why some many people frown apon pop music ?
I dislike that music because it all sucks. heh I couldn't care less what you label it as. This is also just my opinion. Also, "good" is a subjective term in the arts industry. I may dislike most pop music these days, but there is no list of "rules" describing what makes a "good" song. It's all music. A majority of people liking a certain artist or style of music can be attributed to the amount of marketing and PR behind it. This helps to make it well known or "pop"ular. Thus why it's call pop music. The majority of the buying public doesn't want to search and dig through all the music out there, and so they are perfectly fine with listening to whatever is on the mainstream radio, tv, and internet. This sort of sets a precedent for what artist, producers, and engineers strive for in their material, as making money is a big part of this industry. A lot of the time I am fine with the musical aspect of most pop, hip hop, country, etc. It is the voice, lyrics, and image that gets pasted around it that I dislike, usually.
Old 2nd April 2011
  #102
Lives for gear
"Here I sit on Gearslutz tryin' to find a mantra
In the background, Sherbet plays talkin' 'bout Cassandra
The next song begins, performed by a rapper
My oh my how pop music has gone down the crapper"


Last edited by Voyage.One; 2nd April 2011 at 03:38 PM..
Old 2nd April 2011
  #103
Gear Addict
 

In the grand scheme of things, modern pop isn't too much different than any time in the past.
The big difference seems to be (not including internet play) radio and mainstream media have lumped a lot of types of similar music together.
Radio is horrible.
You have classic rock, new little girl music, rap and pop-country for the most part.
There are few subtle differences between the tunes on a given station.
Kids/adults now imitate this.
It's an endless circle.

I can understand why people say thing like "all modern pop sucks".
But, it's a little unfair.
There is a point to be made that "Hello Goodbye" is every bit as bad as modern pop. You're just used to it.

There is probably more great stuff out now than ever before,,, it's just getting harder to find it.

I have been getting fascinated by pop music recently.
I look back at was "pop" during the 70's and 80's and some of the stuff that I absolutely hated at the time; Culture Club, Ah Ha, Hall and Oats....
When you listen now, you realize that they were pretty darned good at what they did. No auto tune on Boy George. It would have ruined it. He had a great, flat voice.
Now that I listen for what's good or works in songs, I don't instantly turn it off.
I was in a mall a few weeks ago, and heard a really catch song....It was Crossfire by Brandon Flowers.
Total pop. Does it suck? No.
It made me interested in the Killers.
They are much better than I thought.

Does Lady Ga Ga suck? No... She's great at what she does.
Does Britney Spears suck? Well......OK you got me. Yes.
Old 3rd April 2011
  #104
Gear Maniac
 
zwatrif's Avatar
 

Personally, I love pop music! For that matter, I love any of kind of music that stirs my soul and makes me "feel".
Old 4th April 2011
  #105
Lives for gear
 

Unlike the mainstream pop of the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's, mainstream pop of today shows little or no instrumental facility / musicianship, little or no originality and demonstrates little or no songwriting skill. They just copy and paste rhythm loops, auto-tune the lame 3 note 'melodies', and hype/promote the 'attitude' and theatrical gimmicks of it all. It's no surprise that the industry keeps shrinking. I call that *justice*. (btw, if you disagree with me, you are *wrong*).
Old 6th April 2011
  #106
HocusPokus
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
Unlike the mainstream pop of the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's, mainstream pop of today shows little or no instrumental facility / musicianship, little or no originality and demonstrates little or no songwriting skill. They just copy and paste rhythm loops, auto-tune the lame 3 note 'melodies', and hype/promote the 'attitude' and theatrical gimmicks of it all. It's no surprise that the industry keeps shrinking. I call that *justice*. (btw, if you disagree with me, you are *wrong*).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSkool View Post
The formula for making a hit song I think is really fairly straightforward:

1) make it sound like all the other mung out there - use Autotune and vocoder until it makes the singer sound like an alien zombie. All instrumental sound must come from either synths (as cold and cliched sounding as possible, heavy layers of saw waves) or samplers. Ideally, samples of synths and samplers. Best would be samples of samples of synths and samplers.

2) marketing, marketing, marketing. For variety - more marketing.

I think songwriting skill of the sort you seem to be referring to is not all that important if you really want to be heard by millions.
Alright, so how many hit songs have you written? And if you haven't written any, well, why are you voluntarily turning down an opportunity to make millions of dollars? As you say, the formula is easy, and only two steps...what are you waiting for exactly? Don't give me the, "well, I have integrity!" argument, because that's crap. You, and I, and most of us, aren't capable of doing it...that's why we don't.

The reality is, Max, Luke, Shellback, Claude Kelly, Stargate, Smeezingtons, etc. are very rare breeds. Max has 9 top 10 singles in the past 4 months, and Luke is averaging a #1 song every 4 months for 7 years straight. These guys are truly gifted, and possess intangibles that very few musicians, songwriters or producers in the world possess. If it was as straightforward and formulaic as you make it sound, there wouldn't only be a half-a-dozen people who see recurring success right now. If it were actually consisted of a two-step process, "copying and pasting" the same stuff, auto-tuning "3-note melodies" and/or "marketing marketing marketing", EVERYONE would be a rich pop songwriter, right?... but we're not, because your statements just aren't accurate or true.

Regarding your marketing comment, I work at a music digital marketing firm in NYC...so I'll speak from that perspective and those experiences. Bottom line, if a song isn't a hit, it won't go anywhere...I don't care how hard you press it on people. Not just in music, but anywhere- If the product isn't good, it will FAIL. End of story. There isn't a song these guys have written that didn't deserve the charting and sales success it saw. Not one. Every one of their products is absolutely mindblowingly catchy and incredibly produced - "The best marketing plan, is a good song".

In addition, no one gets lucky 21 times in 7 years, especially in the landscape of today's industry. If you disagree, then I challenge you to write a Top 40 charting song. Hell, if Luke can be blessed with good marketing every 4 months, I'm sure all of us can get lucky once, right? Ha.

Last edited by HocusPokus; 6th April 2011 at 07:52 AM..
Old 7th April 2011
  #107
Lives for gear
 

Max, Luke, & co. are thriving in the current crappy paradigm by churning out dumbed down, highly processed, non-artistic garbage for the masses. They are dominators in a perpetually shrinking industry. ----- As an analogy, one might also provide a glowing defense of the 'pure genius' of Burger King, Taco Time & Mcdonalds and demand that anyone who criticizes them be successful at producing the same unredeeming garbage or else their criticism isn't valid. ----- To save modern music, one must stop consuming, defending and rationalizing status-quo pop-crap. It's really quite simple.
Old 7th April 2011
  #108
HocusPokus
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
Max, Luke, & co. are thriving in the current crappy paradigm by churning out dumbed down, highly processed, non-artistic garbage for the masses. They are dominators in a perpetually shrinking industry. ----- As an analogy, one might also provide a glowing defense of the 'pure genius' of Burger King, Taco Time & Mcdonalds and demand that anyone who criticizes them be successful at producing the same unredeeming garbage or else their criticism isn't valid. ----- To save modern music, one must stop consuming, defending and rationalizing status-quo pop-crap. It's really quite simple.
Let me tell you a quick story about a friend of mine named Ashley, who worked at Capitol & Geffen (under Schur) from about 2003-2009. She had the same outlook you had... "screw this recycled garbage, I'm finding the next Strokes". She has since been fired, twice. She brought in three artists, all flopped, and that was that. Do you know why she was fired? Because she thought she was smarter than the audience. Bottom line, there is a DEMAND for this "pop crap"...and to think you're more intelligent than the audience is completely ignorant, stupid, and wrong. You will always be dumber than the audience. Always. 1000% of the time. It's the most basic of business principles: Assess where there's a niche, pinpoint it, and deliver the best product directly at it.

These pop producers are recognizing demands, social tendencies, niches, etc. and delivering unbelievable products directly at them. There is an enormous amount of talent and skill in that level of social awareness. Anyone who can fill a niche multiple times to the tune of millions of dollars is obviously a super advanced thinking person.

But you can go back to fighting your pretend war, "we need real music with integrity!"... because while you try to create, find or become the next Led Zeppelin, no one will give a damn. Sit behind your computer and yell "anyone who disagrees with me is wrong"...because the guys charting 20+ #1 hits by the age of 40 are saying you're wrong, and flashing their platinum records at you to prove it. They're not wrong. You are. They're on a level of awareness that you can't even begin to quantify in the most abstract dream or fantasy. The "good fight" isn't the good fight, it's the extinct fight... and I have a couple dozen unemployed ex-A&R friends to prove it.

Stop opposing the demand, and start supplying the demand with the best product.
You're not smarter than the audience... so stop turning a blind eye to what they're begging for.
Old 7th April 2011
  #109
Lives for gear
 

They have a knack for writing/producing mass-accepted crap, just as Burger King and Mcdonalds do WRT food. Breaking news : most small (non-chain) restaurants do not abandon quality food in an attempt to cash in on the garbage fast food model. Same with music. ----- I'm listening to Bach, Rachmaninoff, Brian Wilson's 'Smile' and Dizzy Gillespie and I hope to write/produce similar high quality, intricate, sophisticated art 5-10 years in the future. ----- You are assuming that people who aren't cashing in like Max, Luke & Co. are actually attempting to do as they are doing / have done, and are failing at it. In reality, they have more exigent artistic standards and are happy if they can earn $20,000/yr at it. Breaking News : They are NOT attempting to write the next Billboard pop #1. They are NOT attempting to write/produce dumbed-down sonic-garbage. It's really quite simple. ----- Some folks just keep worshipping successful crap, oblivious to the exorbitantly low bar being set. The tragic long-term consequence, is a perpetually shrinking industry where popular music is literally treated as disposable, plastic, sonic treats with the value of a generic cheeseburger (which in reality, it *is*). That is the *penalty* for blind support of the dumbed-down, status-quo, pop-crap paradigm.
Old 7th April 2011
  #110
HocusPokus
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
They have a knack for writing/producing mass-accepted crap, just as Burger King and Mcdonalds do WRT food. Breaking news : most small (non-chain) restaurants do not abandon quality food in an attempt to cash in on the garbage fast food model. Same with music.
Your analogy is wrong...because most small food chains don't have investors, who DROP them and render them poor if they don't make MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. You can have moderate success in the food industry, it's very hard to have moderate success in the Top 40/pop/"garbage" industry. It's just not a valid comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Musicfan View Post
I'm listening to Bach, Rachmaninoff, Brian Wilson's 'Smile' and Dizzy Gillespie and I hope to write/produce similar high quality, intricate, sophisticated art 5-10 years in the future. ----- You are assuming that people who aren't cashing in like Max, Luke & Co. are actually attempting to do as they are doing / have done, and are failing at it. In reality, they have more exigent artistic standards and are happy if they can earn $20,000/yr at it. Breaking News : They are NOT attempting to write the next Billboard pop #1. They are NOT attempting to write/produce dumbed-down sonic-garbage. It's really quite simple. ----- Some folks just keep worshipping successful crap, oblivious to the exorbitantly low bar being set. The tragic long-term consequence, is a perpetually shrinking industry where popular music is literally treated as disposable, plastic, sonic treats with the value of a generic cheeseburger (which in reality, it *is*). That is the *penalty* for blind support of the dumbed-down, status-quo, pop-crap paradigm.
No, no, no... I actually respect that, a lot. I represent a pop/top 40 production team, work at a mainstream music marketing company, and genuinely love pop music. I'm a 25 year-old-male, and I absolutely love a well-produced pop song, and have no problem admitting that. I can hear one, and almost instantly tell how high it'll chart (I visit sinternet.com daily, and practice hit predicting). I hope you're able to secure a firm career doing it and genuinely wish you luck in that endeavor.

I have an enormous respect for anyone who enjoys any type of music. I am simply requesting the same respect of the pop genre, and ask that people understand that these writers/producers aren't guilty of anything except perfectly supplying a demand. Just like with any niche, consumers will always buy the highest quality product within it...and these guys are delivering that. It's not as easy as it seems. I promise. The team I represent spends hours upon hours, sleepless night, mastering the craft of pop song structure, production and writing "catchy melodies". There is no formula for an infectious melody or pinpointing what these kids and house moms will have stuck in their heads for hours upon hours. Either you get it, or you don't. Just because you don't listen to pop music enough to scale the quality of a given Top 40 song, doesn't mean it should all be written off as "crap". I just refuse to agree with that.

Have a good one, and good luck in achieving your writing/production goals in the future.
Old 7th April 2011
  #111
Lives for gear
 

Hocus ? You've worked your magic here in the moan zone. I now worship at the same altar as you. All praise the saints, Max & Luke. They are pop music saviours. Consider me converted. It's a miracle ! heh heh (Now excuse me while I go and study the Billboard top 20 bible. 'Thou must not criticize auto-tune. Thou must groove to rhythm loops. Thou must adore predictable chord patterns.')
Old 7th April 2011
  #112
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sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by HocusPokus View Post
I visit sinternet.com daily, and practice hit predicting
Didn't know about this site, bookmarking it now! Thanks for the tip.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HocusPokus View Post
I have an enormous respect for anyone who enjoys any type of music. I am simply requesting the same respect of the pop genre, and ask that people understand that these writers/producers aren't guilty of anything except perfectly supplying a demand. Just like with any niche, consumers will always buy the highest quality product within it...and these guys are delivering that. It's not as easy as it seems. I promise. The team I represent spends hours upon hours, sleepless night, mastering the craft of pop song structure, production and writing "catchy melodies". There is no formula for an infectious melody or pinpointing what these kids and house moms will have stuck in their heads for hours upon hours. Either you get it, or you don't. Just because you don't listen to pop music enough to scale the quality of a given Top 40 song, doesn't mean it should all be written off as "crap". I just refuse to agree with that..
You're spot on, of course; there is no surefire hit formula, if there was we'd all be billionaires easily.
Old 9th April 2011
  #113
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rumimusic's Avatar
 

:::yawn:::

Is this the thread where i can expose my musical immaturity and small mindedness?


If it's so easy to write, produce, perform, engineer, & market pop music i suggest you do it and use the proceeds to fund your 'real' & 'noble' music 'career'

Oh but that would be against your 'morales' ?

man, you folks are like people who don't vote because it's 'pointless' and then bitch in a pretentious and uninformed manner about the government.

Grow up.
Old 11th April 2011
  #114
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the immaturity is in todays stupid crappy pop songs (especially the lyrics), not in the criticisms of them.
Old 11th April 2011
  #115
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sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zapsmith9 View Post
the immaturity is in todays stupid crappy pop songs (especially the lyrics), not in the criticisms of them.
Uh, in what world is calling something "stupid" and "crappy" not an immature criticism? What a perfectly contradictory sentence! There's more profundity in a Ke$ha song than in your post.
Old 11th April 2011
  #116
Quote:
Originally Posted by HocusPokus View Post
Your analogy is wrong...because most small food chains don't have investors, who DROP them and render them poor if they don't make MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. You can have moderate success in the food industry, it's very hard to have moderate success in the Top 40/pop/"garbage" industry. It's just not a valid comparison.



No, no, no... I actually respect that, a lot. I represent a pop/top 40 production team, work at a mainstream music marketing company, and genuinely love pop music. I'm a 25 year-old-male, and I absolutely love a well-produced pop song, and have no problem admitting that. I can hear one, and almost instantly tell how high it'll chart (I visit sinternet.com daily, and practice hit predicting). I hope you're able to secure a firm career doing it and genuinely wish you luck in that endeavor.

I have an enormous respect for anyone who enjoys any type of music. I am simply requesting the same respect of the pop genre, and ask that people understand that these writers/producers aren't guilty of anything except perfectly supplying a demand. Just like with any niche, consumers will always buy the highest quality product within it...and these guys are delivering that. It's not as easy as it seems. I promise. The team I represent spends hours upon hours, sleepless night, mastering the craft of pop song structure, production and writing "catchy melodies". There is no formula for an infectious melody or pinpointing what these kids and house moms will have stuck in their heads for hours upon hours. Either you get it, or you don't. Just because you don't listen to pop music enough to scale the quality of a given Top 40 song, doesn't mean it should all be written off as "crap". I just refuse to agree with that.

Have a good one, and good luck in achieving your writing/production goals in the future.
Everything you're writing right there is exactly why I do not want to be fully engaged in songwriting for Major Label artists, I've written a couple of songs that are about to get recorded by some artists, and honestly I did not approach them like you did. The reason being, I still believe in artistic honesty, and I do not treat music (or any art) as a form of fast food business.

This is exactly what is wrong in the industry, it's the sense that something needs to sell. I know the drill, you write a simple, light hearted song with clever little lines, you add a mass marketing campaign behind it and sooner or later, you see people tapping out and buying it, not because it's long lasting music, more because it's the flavor of the moment and everyone needs to have it. The reality is, this is the main reason why the music industry is struggling right now; it's because there is too much industry and not enough music.

As for my own music, I'd rather make money with publishing than bow down to the low level of Mcdonald fast food based industry, where you put crap in, crap out. If they (Dr Luke, Max Martin) are able to make hit songs, good for them, but they are nowhere near what someone like Trent Reznor has done in his career, which is far more important than any of these silly producers will ever do; nevermind how many hits they have, they can only kiss Trent's feet!

You think bands like Nirvana became big by going with the system? Are you for real? I think it's time that Rock music comes back with full force.
Old 11th April 2011
  #117
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AfterViewer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
Uh, in what world is calling something "stupid" and "crappy" not an immature criticism? What a perfectly contradictory sentence! There's more profundity in a Ke$ha song than in your post.
Um, sure you're not going out on a limb?
Old 11th April 2011
  #118
Lives for gear
Remember: there was a generation of pop engineers before us who held Nelson Riddle to be the paragon of excellence in pop arrangement. These engineers were horrified when electric guitars and basses replaced acoustic ensembles, and when strings were relegated to background ("pad") status. Perhaps the last acceptable pop music to them was The Carpenters.

The following generation--who recorded Motown, Cream, Bob Dylan, etc.--then had to suffer the indignities of MIDI and Fairlights. Most of those engineers didn't make the transition.

It's our nature, as we get older, to disparage what's new. Maybe we're right; I don't know. But I do know that our opinions are certainly irrelevant.

Do your thing. Make the music you want to make. Don't try to bend the curvature of culture to fit your predilection. You'll fail if you try.
Old 12th April 2011
  #119
HocusPokus
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
Everything you're writing right there is exactly why I do not want to be fully engaged in songwriting for Major Label artists, I've written a couple of songs that are about to get recorded by some artists, and honestly I did not approach them like you did. The reason being, I still believe in artistic honesty, and I do not treat music (or any art) as a form of fast food business.

This is exactly what is wrong in the industry, it's the sense that something needs to sell. I know the drill, you write a simple, light hearted song with clever little lines, you add a mass marketing campaign behind it and sooner or later, you see people tapping out and buying it, not because it's long lasting music, more because it's the flavor of the moment and everyone needs to have it. The reality is, this is the main reason why the music industry is struggling right now; it's because there is too much industry and not enough music.

As for my own music, I'd rather make money with publishing than bow down to the low level of Mcdonald fast food based industry, where you put crap in, crap out. If they (Dr Luke, Max Martin) are able to make hit songs, good for them, but they are nowhere near what someone like Trent Reznor has done in his career, which is far more important than any of these silly producers will ever do; nevermind how many hits they have, they can only kiss Trent's feet!

You think bands like Nirvana became big by going with the system? Are you for real? I think it's time that Rock music comes back with full force.
I think you're wrong.
I grew up listening to Eric Johnson, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, etc. and still consider those artists some of the greatest I've ever heard in my life. They are/were progressive and really pushed the musical limits of whatever genres and instruments they touched. However...there's a time and a place for that. There has always been the "pop crap" of the world...whether it's disco or some BS hair metal band like Twisted Sister. To think this generation is any different, or more fabricated, is simply a mistake. If the technology that is available today were around back then, Twisted Sister would be riddled with autotune, melodyne and over production. You'd be crazy to say otherwise.

Music doesn't sell nowadays because of illegal downloading. And like I've stated a million times, I work in digital marketing... I weigh these types of numbers on a nearly daily basis. The reason why music isn't sellign is because pop music isn't selling...because pop music appeals to the "digital age" of markets. If a kid is savvy enough to buy a song on iTunes, he/she is savvy enough to download it illegally. A friend of mine's band has had 3 top 5 singles, and have sold a mere 700k records. It's a joke. THAT is the problem with the music industry. When the biggest selling genre targets the biggest market that illegal downloading does, you have a huge problem.

Comparing Dr. Luke to Trent Reznor is a joke. It's two different fields from two different eras. To say one is better or worse than the other is a void statement by default. If you like Trent Reznor, then yes, Trent is better than Dr Luke, if you like pop music, then no, he's not. I like pop music. If you don't, then more power to you, and I wish you the best of luck in writing that style. I think Luke/Martin are geniuses. Also, Nirvana wouldn't be a charting band these days. That's reality. And if you'd like to become the next Nirvana, good luck. Like I said, I have a few dozen ex-label employees who are living on welfare trying to find the next Nirvana, or other bands that appeal to audiences that barely exist these days. Force an issue if you want, take a gamble...I'm simply saying very very very very very few people succeed opposing what people want. it boils down to the "don't think you're smarter than the audience" thing.
Old 12th April 2011
  #120
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
Uh, in what world is calling something "stupid" and "crappy" not an immature criticism? What a perfectly contradictory sentence! There's more profundity in a Ke$ha song than in your post.
if you cant identify what makes todays popular music stupid and crappy (its overly simple .. unoriginal .. predictable .. lacking formal musical talent .. lacking songwriting skill .. dumb lyrics .. autotune .. predictable chords .. etc) then thats your problem.
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