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-----------Gibson Offices Raided by US Fish & Wildlife Service!!!
Old 19th January 2011
  #151
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doncaparker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Stinking shame is what it is. The reason these trees are being clearcut has very little to do with guitar building.

*wood for both timber and wood for making fires;
*agriculture for both small and large farms;
*land for poor farmers who don't have anywhere else to live;
*grazing land for cattle;
*road construction;
*It is estimated that for each pound of beef produced, 200 square feet of rainforest is destroyed. This is known as slash and burn farming and is believed to account for 50% of rainforest destruction...
*Timber companies cut down huge trees such as mahogany and teak and sell them to other countries to make furniture.
*The developed nations relentlessly demand minerals and metals such as diamonds, oil, aluminium, copper and gold, which are often found in the ground below rainforests...
*Rainforests are seriously affected by oil companies searching for new oil deposits...

This tonewood connection troubles me. I'm guessing less than .1% of the real problem. Easy target that makes bureaucrats look like they're doing something about a "hot topic" issue. Go bust a guitar factory because you can't touch oil and mining companies or the large-scale ranchers and farmers. Kind of like throwing a kid out of school for having a nail clipper because some other kid shot 10 people at a another school.
This is what is really going on. Seriously, all the guitar wood in all the factories in the whole world account for a tiny fraction of the overall problem of deforestation. Guitars are the tail and everything else is the dog.

I'm not sticking up for Gibson, nor am I criticizing Gibson. It will have to deal with the federales on its own, and if it messed up in its purchasing practices, it will pay the price. I'm just saying that people serious about helping the environment should be focused on things other than guitar wood. This is a complete distraction from the real causes of deforestation.
Old 20th January 2011
  #152
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doncaparker View Post

I'm not sticking up for Gibson, nor am I criticizing Gibson. It will have to deal with the federales on its own, and if it messed up in its purchasing practices, it will pay the price. I'm just saying that people serious about helping the environment should be focused on things other than guitar wood. This is a complete distraction from the real causes of deforestation.
I was doing some research on an unrelated topic, when I stumbled across this:
Tonewood in the Making
There are a whole range of ways to harvest wood for guitars, it seems.

I would think that at least some of the wood being used to make cheap Asian guitars is coming from clear-cutting operations, while the higher-end stuff is being sourced from operations like these guys are touting on their site.

(I'd think that with most name-brand guitars, it would fall somewhere in-between those two extremes.)

Meanwhile, I have no idea how or where Gibson gets their wood, or whether or not they have done anything illegal. I would assume there would have to be a trial of some sort in order to make that determination.
.

.
Old 20th January 2011
  #153
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not to brag but i have a madi rosewood gibson, shame.
Old 20th January 2011
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomlee View Post
not to brag but i have a madi rosewood gibson, shame.
If you want to unburden your soul, send it to me and I'll be sure to get it to the proper authorities after a complete and lengthy inspection
Old 20th January 2011
  #155
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CJ1973's Avatar
 

-----------Gibson Offices Raided by US Fish & Wildlife Service!!!

Well the next time a US president wants rocknroll entertainment , it ain't going to sound good cuz it ain't African rosewood... Then again the US president may have some ... You know.... Connections lol
Old 20th January 2011
  #156
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SkunkWorks's Avatar
 

Santa Cruz Guitar Co. is using reclaimed wood for tone woods. I think this is a smart way to go that other companies should take note of. And it's obviously pre-aged by its very definition...

About the Woods - Santa Cruz Guitar Company
Old 22nd January 2011
  #157
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
I'm guessing less than .1% of the real problem. Easy target that makes bureaucrats look like they're doing something about a "hot topic" issue. Go bust a guitar factory because you can't touch oil and mining companies or the large-scale ranchers and farmers.


well yeah, gibson's much easier to push around then the oil companies and such that run the government. money is power.


our real president is a million little six inch pieces of green paper.
Old 22nd January 2011
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
I was doing some research on an unrelated topic, when I stumbled across this:
Tonewood in the Making
There are a whole range of ways to harvest wood for guitars, it seems.

I would think that at least some of the wood being used to make cheap Asian guitars is coming from clear-cutting operations, while the higher-end stuff is being sourced from operations like these guys are touting on their site.

(I'd think that with most name-brand guitars, it would fall somewhere in-between those two extremes.)

Meanwhile, I have no idea how or where Gibson gets their wood, or whether or not they have done anything illegal. I would assume there would have to be a trial of some sort in order to make that determination.
.

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When it comes to the cheapest plywood guitars, yeah, they are using veneers, and maybe those come from some forestry practices that are not great. But, you know, veneer is a pretty efficient use of wood (not as much waste), so at least there is that. Tonewoods are usually quartersawn, which results in a fair amount of waste.

For guitars like Gibsons and Epiphones, they actually do have to go about cutting and drying the wood as described in the article, because if you fail to do that, the wood is just wildly unstable, which leads to a lot of returns for cracked wood, warped necks, etc. Other than veneers, tonewoods really are used to make guitars, even the factory guitars. Some are pricier than others, but the wood that goes into, say, a Martin, is not that different quality-wise from the wood that goes into a Taylor or a Gibson. Essentially, we say bad things about the quality of a higher end factory guitar based on the workmanship more than the materials.

My point is this: assume that guitar makers use wood harvested in the worst of ways, from an environmental perspective. Not all are that bad, but assume all are. Guitars are such a small part of the overall reasons why forests are cut down that I see it as being a waste of resources to go after companies like Gibson, regardless of whether they bought wood they should not have. Go after the real culprits in deforestation, not the people who make guitars.

But, of course, Gibson doesn't have the political muscle that the real culprits have, so they are an easier target for people who need to justify the existence of their jobs.
Old 22nd January 2011
  #159
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doncaparker View Post

My point is this: assume that guitar makers use wood harvested in the worst of ways, from an environmental perspective.
Why should I ASSUME that?

Why should I assume ANYTHING (let alone "the worst")?

What good does it do for me to assume my guitar was made from trees that were clear-cut (with slave labor) by the Gambino Family in the most delicate of rainforest, and then smuggled into the US on ships powered by burning toxic waste?

Is it just to add "angst" to my music, maybe?
.

.
Old 22nd January 2011
  #160
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laser's Avatar
 

Did anyone else notice that all the US Fish & Wildlife agents in the raid were wearing Guns 'N Roses T-shirts underneath their uniforms?

Laser
Old 22nd January 2011
  #161
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doncaparker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Why should I ASSUME that?

Why should I assume ANYTHING (let alone "the worst")?

What good does it do for me to assume my guitar was made from trees that were clear-cut (with slave labor) by the Gambino Family in the most delicate of rainforest, and then smuggled into the US on ships powered by burning toxic waste?

Is it just to add "angst" to my music, maybe?
.

.
Assuming the worst is a way of making an argument. I wasn't asking you to continue to assume in your daily life that all guitar makers are terrible to the environment. I was saying that, even if you assume that to be true, their impact on the environment is minimal, compared to the actions of others.

In fact, there are a number of guitar factories that are trying to be responsible stewards of wood. So, it would be a mistaken assumption.

I was only assuming for the sake of argument. Sorry if that didn't come across well.
Old 22nd January 2011
  #162
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doncaparker View Post

I was only assuming for the sake of argument. Sorry if that didn't come across well.
Ah.

I'd missed that. I see now.

I guess the real point is that it's not just that wood for guitars is a minimal chunk of the market making it environmentally low-impact.

...It's also that the more brutal methods of harvest don't really yield good guitar wood.

.
Old 22nd January 2011
  #163
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Quote:
...It's also that the more brutal methods of harvest don't really yield good guitar wood.
Well, I'm not sure I know enough about how the deforestation is conducted to know that for certain. If the tree falls and goes straight to the mill where it is flatsawn or rotary sawn, yeah, that doesn't yield good guitar wood. If the tree falls and someone sorts the trees based on the intended use, then good guitar wood can definitely come from that process.

Only some trees are good for making guitars. They have to be the right species, they have to be old enough to be a certain diameter, and they cannot exhibit too much twisting of the trunk. If someone in an otherwise irresponsible harvest is looking out for the right kind of trees and setting them aside as tonewood, we can certainly see good guitar wood come from it. So, our consciences are not totally clean.

But here's the thing: Nobody is clearing out jungles for the sole purpose of finding great guitar wood! They would go broke doing that. If you are in the business of finding great guitar wood (and there are people in that business), you don't clear jungles. You go find the people who clear jungles and piggy-back off their efforts, efforts which are mostly aimed at some other purpose or some other market besides guitar wood.

Maybe a better way of saying this is that guitar wood is not the economic driver of deforestation. Other things are.
Old 22nd January 2011
  #164
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Ken Walker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
... at the head of the Gibson scandal is Pablo Essguitar
Not sure to laugh or groan at this one...
Old 3rd September 2011
  #165
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Why were the Gibson Raid threads deleted?!?!

The threads 'Is your fretboard illegal?' and 'Environmental Enforcement Raids Gibson Factory' have been deleted on these forums. Usually, discussions get moved here to the Moan Zone but that hasn't happened in this case - they've been deleted without a trace.

This is disappointing because a) this is an important issue that affects all of us and b) there was a lot of useful information in those threads.

I'm starting this thread here in the Moan Zone as a continuation of the two discussions. Please do NOT engage in name-calling with other forum members. Let's keep this thread civil so it doesn't disappear like the others...
Old 3rd September 2011
  #166
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OK, I'll start...

I was just skimming through some of the court documents and came across this. It should be required reading for anyone following the Gibson raids:

http://www.archive.org/download/gov....48385.17.0.pdf

Also, there seems to be some question about how involved the Obama administration is in the whole matter. At first, I was a little skeptical but the more I read, the more they seem to be complicit.

For instance, in March of this year, the administration went to congress to ask for more of our tax dollars to increase enforcement provisions of the Lacey Act. Here's a statement by Edward Avalos, Under Secretary for Marketing and Regulatory Programs (USDA) before a congressional subcommittee:

"An additional $1.5 million is requested to establish a dedicated program to continue implementing the 2008 Farm Bill amendments to the Lacey Act, which are intended to prevent the importation of products derived from illegally harvested timber in other countries. The increase will allow APHIS to more effectively and efficiently implement the amended Act." (Page 9)

http://appropriations.house.gov/_fil...sstatement.pdf

These aren't my political opinions - they're the actual documents. Read them and judge for yourself...
Old 3rd September 2011
  #167
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I don’t think peps are allowed to talk about on-going cases, maybe it’s for the best, I guess the GS owners don’t want to be sued!
Old 3rd September 2011
  #168
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taturana's Avatar
i would guess it's for the political implications... since the political forum has been deleted for precisely this... but maybe jules or some of the other mods would like to chime in...

i think it's a pretty strange development, seizing guitar necks and bodies at gibson, and thus quite relevant to the forum...... but i am not a mod...
Old 3rd September 2011
  #169
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junior's Avatar
 

Hopefully, this thread doesn't get shut down like the others. Just posted this court doc in a new thread in the Moan Zone: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/moan-...s-deleted.html

Enjoy: http://www.archive.org/download/gov....48385.17.0.pdf
Old 3rd September 2011
  #170
Taturana's spot on.

Politics, politics, politics.

If you can find a way to discuss it without bringing political subject matter into it, by all means, go ahead. Otherwise they're gonna disappear.

The documents posted above are OK, but as soon as anyone offers an opinion on them/it then things tend to get out of hand.

Tread carefully!
Old 4th September 2011
  #171
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drBill's Avatar
The nature of the situation is politics. There's no way around it. You can pretend all you want, but politics is government and laws in action. And that's exactly what this situation is.

The difference is that as opposed to being a somewhat "theoretical" or abstract discussion, this one hits home because it directly affects guitarists and musical instrument manufacturers up close and personal. And THAT is a direct concern and valid topic for GS IMO.

Namecalling and stupid accusations,,,,,,,,not so much.
Old 4th September 2011
  #172
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
The difference is that as opposed to being a somewhat "theoretical" or abstract discussion, this one hits home because it directly affects guitarists and musical instrument manufacturers up close and personal. And THAT is a direct concern and valid topic for GS IMO.

Namecalling and stupid accusations,,,,,,,,not so much.
That more or less sums it up - just bear in mind the following (this is aimed at everyone) -

You can state a fact about government/policy etc as it relates to the topic (as long as you can back it up/prove it).

However, it's probably best not to state an opinion about said government/policy, especially if it can be construed to be partisan. That's the sort of thing that gets threads locked or deleted - because it leads to exactly what drBill mentioned.

Carry on...
Old 4th September 2011
  #173
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Well said, drBill and Whitecat!

So, adding to the document pile, here's a link to the court docs for the ongoing 2009 case. The real meat is in documents #1, #17 and #30:

Case docket: United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms

I could be wrong, but in document #60 it seems to suggest that the feds are nearly out of time for their discovery delays from the first raid:

"The Plaintiff, United States of America (the “Government”), and Claimant Gibson Guitar Corp. (“Gibson”) file this notice regarding the discovery issues discussed in open Court on August 29, 2011. The parties have met face to face and by telephone but need a few more days to determine the scope of any discovery issues. The parties have agreed that the Government will provide Gibson with a statement of any issues in dispute no later than September 7, 2011, and Gibson will respond in writing no later than September 9, 2011. If any issues remain, the Government will file the joint statement of issues with any motion no later than September 13, 2011."

I wonder if the feds maybe realized how bad a case they have (and knew the judge might dismiss it) so they went in to raid Gibson again using the information they'd acquired from the first raid? If so, it seems like a long, drawn-out fishing expedition...
Old 4th September 2011
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junior View Post

Also, there seems to be some question about how involved the Obama administration is in the whole matter. At first, I was a little skeptical but the more I read, the more they seem to be complicit.
this would be the same Obama administration that caved on the pipeline, caved on ozone, caved on air quality and caved on endangered species? Suddenly at the highest levels, they are taking a stand against guitar wood?

the whole thing strikes me as some mid-level bureaucrat taking his job a little too seriously
Old 4th September 2011
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
this would be the same Obama administration that caved on the pipeline, caved on ozone, caved on air quality and caved on endangered species? Suddenly at the highest levels, they are taking a stand against guitar wood?

the whole thing strikes me as some mid-level bureaucrat taking his job a little too seriously
That's what I thought initially, but after reading so much about it over the past few days I'm not so sure. Lots of unanswered questions, IMO.

If you read those documents, why is the government changing their original complaint to "sawed wood" after they admitted it was "finished" fretboards? Why are they misrepresenting the foreign law which the entire case is based on? Why are they reversing their story on who the wood belongs to? Is it just a tactic to stall for time while they try to get Gibson on the hook with more information? Why did they initiate a whole new raid just weeks before they're supposed to have their discovery finalized from the first raid? Why is it only Gibson that the DOJ is pursuing? Why is the Obama administration requesting additional funds from congress to expand Lacey Act enforcement?

I think those are all legitimate questions, no? The buck's got to stop somewhere...
Old 4th September 2011
  #176
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It's funny how everyone keeps saying it's about wood.. The Govt is trying to steer it that way as well.. the fact is, the wood was already harvested and processed by the Indians.. legally.

None of this is about wood, it's about the labor content of the product shipped to Gibson. The folks that keep spewing on about wood are trying to divert your attention.
Old 4th September 2011
  #177
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This latest attempt towards Gibson is not about the wood.. although it keeps getting diverted that way. It's about Indian labor content in the products shipped.
Old 4th September 2011
  #178
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Maybe a better way of saying this is that guitar wood is not the economic driver of deforestation. Other things are.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. Go mess with the oil companies who are trying to frack our aquifers or the coal companies who wipe out mountains and forests here.
Old 4th September 2011
  #179
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did they find any fish or wildlife??
Old 4th September 2011
  #180
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These kind of Re-Threads make me Hungry! heh Vegan Black Metal Chef Episode 1 Pad Thai - YouTube
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