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-----------Gibson Offices Raided by US Fish & Wildlife Service!!!
Old 26th November 2009
  #121
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mingustoo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
... at the head of the Gibson scandal is Pablo Essguitar
hahaaaa...great!
Old 10th January 2011
  #123
Gear Head
 

A guitar is a guitar is a guitar is a guitar...

Call me opinionated...
Or maybe it's because I live in a Latin American country but I do have a tendency to believe that the right of the indigenous people and animals living in the Brazilian, Honduran or Madagascar Rainforest to have their natural habitat preserved is slightly more important than whatever marginal and subjective improvement some revered "tone wood" makes on a guitar.

We are talking about people's homeland, guys. I am sure very few of you would feel it was justified to bulldoze your house just because a few thousand miles away from here some wisecrack believes the minerals underneath your home somehow makes his mic preamp sound 5-10% better.

Not that it matters. Gibson has been manufacturing crap guitars for a few years now. I grew so tired of having to mod every Gibbie I bought that I eventually got rid of every single one of them.

Have you learned nothing from the likes of David Gilmour and Mark Knopfler? IT'S ALL IN THE FINGERS!!!!

Now, if you want to get snobby I can tell you this much: my 1978 Guild S-300 and my 1972 Telecaster Deluxe (yes, the one with CuNiFe HBs) smoke pretty much anything that has come out of the Gibson factory in the past 30 years and still I prefer to gig with my Mexican Tele Deluxe reissue (with Telenator mod, of course) because, really, if your tone depends more on how expensive and "vintage" your guitar is and not in your technique, picking style and attack... then you ain't a real guitar player.

There... my 2 cents. Feel free to hate me.

P.S. Yes, I know my Guild was also built with endangered Mahogany but that's the point: it was built in the seventies, before we knew what was going on. There are plenty of old guitars out there and there is really not a good reason to build guitars with endangered wood in 2011.
And, yes, it is a pity the damned yippie dentists and lawyers have driven the "vintage" market prices far beyond the means of most real musicians but, hey, that's why I recommend looking off the beaten path.
Plus, an Edward LP with upgraded electronics can do pretty much whatever an overpriced GC-ready Gibbie does (and at a fraction of the price, too).

Last edited by Patodruida; 10th January 2011 at 07:01 PM.. Reason: Addendum
Old 10th January 2011
  #124
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SkunkWorks's Avatar
 

^
Don't hate you, bro... but I couldn't disagree with most of that more. And the whole "tone is in the fingers" thing is one of my biggest pet peeves but this isn't the thread to discuss that.

feel free to hate me
Old 11th January 2011
  #125
Gear Guru
 
kafka's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patodruida View Post
Call me opinionated...
... more important than whatever marginal and subjective improvement
... Gibson has been manufacturing crap guitars for a few years now.
... Have you learned nothing
... Now, if you want to get snobby I can tell you this much:
... then you ain't a real guitar player.
... There... my 2 cents. Feel free to hate me.
... the damned yippie dentists and lawyers
... an overpriced GC-ready Gibbie does
There's a lot of hostility here from someone with 2 posts. Feel free to hate me for pointing it out.
Old 11th January 2011
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall View Post
It's all Rick Neilsons fault heh
I saw Cheap Trick open for Blondie this summer. Rick has a lot of guitars, that's for sure. Although I'm not sure he's done much for the Hamer market.

http://www.hamerguitars.com/?fa=rick_nielsen
Old 11th January 2011
  #127
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warhead View Post
Why are Americans so against sporting some wood?

War
careful..you'll make the list
Old 11th January 2011
  #128
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka View Post
There's a lot of hostility here from someone with 2 posts. Feel free to hate me for pointing it out.
Unless you work at Gibson yourself, I don't see why you should feel any hostility.

If you really feel that getting your cherished "tone wood" is worth screwing up the habitat of others less fortunate than you I'm afraid you deserve more pity than hate.

And if you think that the amount of posts one individual has in an internet forum is a gauge of how much weight his opinion carry well... all I can say is "good luck with that"
Old 11th January 2011
  #129
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SkunkWorks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patodruida View Post
Unless you work at Gibson yourself, I don't see why you should feel any hostility.

If you really feel that getting your cherished "tone wood" is worth screwing up the habitat of others less fortunate than you I'm afraid you deserve more pity than hate.

And if you think that the amount of posts one individual has in an internet forum is a gauge of how much weight his opinion carry well... all I can say is "good luck with that"
I'm pretty sure he's referring to everything after the habitat stuff, So was I.

And I think you know that
Old 11th January 2011
  #130
Gear Head
 

A guitar is still a guitar is still a guitar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkunkWorks View Post
^
Don't hate you, bro... but I couldn't disagree with most of that more. And the whole "tone is in the fingers" thing is one of my biggest pet peeves but this isn't the thread to discuss that.

feel free to hate me
Nah, why should I hate you just because you have an opinion that differs from mine and point it out in a civil manner?

I must admit that the "tone is the fingers" thing is a bit of an oversimplification but, after being a tone snob myself for decades and spending thousands of REALLY hard-earned dollars accumulating high-end guitars, I can't even begin to express how liberated I felt after getting rid of most of them and realising that I could get as good a tone or even better with a few carefully-modded mid-prized instruments.

I apologise if you and your mate felt hostility but my darts were aimed towards Gibson the company, not you the players.

Now, I don't know if this applies to you but, even with my background in Market Research and Brand Awareness I still can't fathom why Gibson players get so defensive to the point of religious zeal when one dares criticise their brand.

It's a brand. It's an effing brand. And ever since Juszkiewicz, Berryman and Zebrowski purchased the company the brand is virtually all that's left.

I don't doubt you can make great music with your Gibsons. And I am sure Kafka is an accomplished musician himself regardless of his instrument of choice.

I do believe the world is a better place because there are Les Pauls (and Explorers and SG's and ES-335's) and G*d bless the players who make beautiful music with them (if I regret something in life, it is getting rid of my 1959 TV Yellow Les Paul Jr.)

But my point is that the current incarnation of the Gibson company does engage in pretty shady business practices, has very, very loose quality-standards and, really, seems to cater more towards the casual player or the collector than the actual hard-working gigging musician.

Oh, and I stand by my statement that my Guild and my Tele Deluxe smoke pretty much anything today's Gibson factory can throw at me. Of course, I'll qualify that statement by saying that tone is a very subjective matter and I am not so conceited that I think you are in any way obligated to agree with me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkunkWorks View Post
I'm pretty sure he's referring to everything after the habitat stuff, So was I.

And I think you know that
OK. I concede. My bad.
It's just that Gibson really rubs me the wrong way, specially since they came of with the Jimi Hendrix Strat knockoff.

Last edited by Patodruida; 11th January 2011 at 07:25 AM.. Reason: Good point.
Old 11th January 2011
  #131
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SkunkWorks's Avatar
 

^
Yes I do own several Gibsons but I have also owned Fenders and others in the past. In fact I'd ike to pick up a Tele at some point and a PRS. I use what sounds good for the style and genre and I have different uses for different guitars depending on what kind of tone they produce. I love Strats and Teles for certain things but to say I could interchangeably replace my Gibsons with those Fenders in certain applications and that if I can't it's just because I'm not playing it right... well... I dunno, man... I think there are alot of players here (and not just Gibson ones) that would just laugh at that, like I sort of did.

For what its worth, I do think Gibson has its issues and I know there are many who would like see a change of ownership/management, but I don't think that would affect me much personally anyway so it doesn't really bother me. But, management aside, I'm not so sure I feel their quality control is really any worse than it's always been... and I'm not complaining either. I have a 20 year old Les Paul and a 4 year old chambered one and just sold a 2005 and they are all stellar instruments both in tone and playability. I bought the two newer ones sight unseen off ebay and wasn't worried about what I'd be getting as far as current quality and I was proved right on that... there are always dogs out there from any era but I've found that to be the exception and not the norm. Over at the mylespaul forum you'll find that that has also been the experience of most users and owners... and believe me, you won't find more Gibson bashers than at a Gibson based fan forum

So, yeah, I'm a fan to an extent... but I'm a fan of other brands as well, Gibson is just one. I just keep using the same avatar everywhere because I made it for use on another forum and I'm too lazy to make other ones. And it also helps people recognize me around the web as the same person which helps with buying, selling and trading. I even use it at a photography/cinematography forum

Peace.
Old 11th January 2011
  #132
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkunkWorks View Post
^
I love Strats and Teles for certain things but to say I could interchangeably replace my Gibsons with those Fenders in certain applications and that if I can't it's just because I'm not playing it right... well... I dunno, man... I think there are alot of players here (and not just Gibson ones) that would just laugh at that, like I sort of did.
You misunderstood me as I never suggested Fenders are interchangeable with Gibsons.

For one, I first mentioned the Guild which I do consider interchangeable with, perhaps, an SG or some LP's as it is quite similar to a Gibson in build (only with far superior workmanship).

Now, what I did say (with so many words) was that if the most important things in your tone are the name on the headstock and the price-tag on the "Official Vintage Guitar Price Guide" then you are probably not a very good guitarist in the first place.

I doubt this applies to you (or Kafka, for the matter) so, really, you shouldn't feel at all offended by that statement.
Old 11th January 2011
  #133
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SkunkWorks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patodruida View Post
You misunderstood me as I never suggested Fenders are interchangeable with Gibsons.

For one, I first mentioned the Guild which I do consider interchangeable with, perhaps, an SG or some LP's as it is quite similar to a Gibson in build (only with far superior workmanship).

Now, what I did say (with so many words) was that if the most important things in your tone are the name on the headstock and the price-tag on the "Official Vintage Guitar Price Guide" then you are probably not a very good guitarist in the first place.

I doubt this applies to you (or Kafka, for the matter) so, really, you shouldn't feel at all offended by that statement.
Oh, I had some issues with some stuff I thought you were saying, but I wasn't offended... especially not from a Gibson user or owner's perspective.

And believe me, I try to buy my Gibsons previously owned and at the lowest price possible thumbsup Regular Standards in the $1200 to $1500 range suit me fine


EDIT
My SG is one of the cheapest versions of an SG that they make, and probably the best sounding and playing Gibson I own. Go figure.
Old 11th January 2011
  #134
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkunkWorks View Post
Oh, I had some issues with some stuff I thought you were saying, but I wasn't offended... especially not from a Gibson user or owner's perspective.

And believe me, I try to buy my Gibsons previously owned and at the lowest price possible thumbsup Regular Standards in the $1200 to $1500 range suit me fine
I can respect that.

Gotta get some sleep now.

Sorry for my pontificating and my hijacking the thread.

I'll see you around here!
Old 11th January 2011
  #135
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SkunkWorks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patodruida View Post
I can respect that.

Gotta get some sleep now.

Sorry for my pontificating and my hijacking the thread.

I'll see you around here!
thumbsup

(I edited my previous post, added the thing about the SG).
Old 11th January 2011
  #136
Lives for gear
 

My vote is that the fish and wildlife bloke's son plays guitar and as his 18th birthday was approaching, he wanted to get him a top of the line Les Paul.

So he fabricated (geddit???) some story about wood, got his hard-cases (geddit???) to kick the door in and rob some guitars, and told them to 'make a good job of it' so they took some other stuff.

Now he's stringing (geddit???) Gibson up with some imaginary crime just because he spent the money for his son's birthday on prostitutes and forgot to buy him a present.

That's my verdict.
Old 11th January 2011
  #137
Gear Addict
 
Yeah, right...'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
And nobody wants to talk about the guitars they make out of baby seals.
OH NOOOO...! Not the little white ones with the big black eyes...?
Old 11th January 2011
  #138
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Tone Laborer's Avatar
Good job FBI for going after the real threat to our society--the evil luthiers.
Old 11th January 2011
  #139
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kafka's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patodruida View Post
Unless you work at Gibson yourself, I don't see why you should feel any hostility.
I don't. I'm pointing out yours.

But even then, honestly, I don't get it. Gibson doesn't use any different materials than anyone else in the business. As far as Lacey violations goes, we'll just have to see how it turns out. It wouldn't surprise me, given their position as a consumer of these resources. But it wouldn't make them evil.

And on quality, so what? Nobody is obligated to buy a guitar they don't like. If Gibson is putting out guitars that are sub-standard, it should be easy to spot in the store when you're trying it out. But overall, Gibson make fine guitars, and their practices really aren't any different than any other maker.
Old 11th January 2011
  #140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer View Post
Good job FBI for going after the real threat to our society--the evil luthiers.
Wasn't the FBI, actually. Have edited the thread title to correct this.
Old 11th January 2011
  #141
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warhead View Post
Why are Americans so against sporting some wood?

War
It's all that repression in your society heh
Old 11th January 2011
  #142
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka View Post
I don't. I'm pointing out yours.

But even then, honestly, I don't get it. Gibson doesn't use any different materials than anyone else in the business. As far as Lacey violations goes, we'll just have to see how it turns out. It wouldn't surprise me, given their position as a consumer of these resources. But it wouldn't make them evil.

And on quality, so what? Nobody is obligated to buy a guitar they don't like. If Gibson is putting out guitars that are sub-standard, it should be easy to spot in the store when you're trying it out. But overall, Gibson make fine guitars, and their practices really aren't any different than any other maker.
Gibson may not be the only offenders when it comes to acquiring wood from dubious sources but as a major player in the field, they have more responsibility than others. Ignoring such responsibility doesn't make them evil... it just makes them less than honest.

On the quality issue, you have to take into consideration that those who live outside of the US have their options limited when it comes to spotting a dog at the store.
Who knows? Maybe they pay less attention to the guitars they export to "developing" countries and that's why my experience with quality control is worse than yours.
I dunno... I think Gibson is so infuriating to some not because they build bad instruments but because with their name, their tradition and their resources (not to mention the fantastic overhead) their guitars should really be flawless and, unfortunately, it is not always the case.

But you were right: there was a lot of apparent hostility in my post and it did seem to come from nowhere. I guess I was having a rough day and was taking it out on Gibson. No biggie.
Old 11th January 2011
  #143
It was worse too for Gibson because at the time of the raid Henry J sat on the board of directors of the Rainforest Alliance. He's since resigned that position...
Old 11th January 2011
  #144
Gear Maniac
 

They've been selling guitars because of the name on the headstock for decades now. I've I'm going to buy a high end guitar, I expect it to play pretty damn good and have it's own character. Not have to sift through crap to find a decent one, that should only happen with epiphone, tokais and squiers.
Old 11th January 2011
  #145
god dammit people think of the lemurs!


I'll take one in as a pet. i got this feeling though he won't like the climate around these parts.

Old 11th January 2011
  #146
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kennybro's Avatar
Stinking shame is what it is. The reason these trees are being clearcut has very little to do with guitar building.

*wood for both timber and wood for making fires;
*agriculture for both small and large farms;
*land for poor farmers who don't have anywhere else to live;
*grazing land for cattle;
*road construction;
*It is estimated that for each pound of beef produced, 200 square feet of rainforest is destroyed. This is known as slash and burn farming and is believed to account for 50% of rainforest destruction...
*Timber companies cut down huge trees such as mahogany and teak and sell them to other countries to make furniture.
*The developed nations relentlessly demand minerals and metals such as diamonds, oil, aluminium, copper and gold, which are often found in the ground below rainforests...
*Rainforests are seriously affected by oil companies searching for new oil deposits...

This tonewood connection troubles me. I'm guessing less than .1% of the real problem. Easy target that makes bureaucrats look like they're doing something about a "hot topic" issue. Go bust a guitar factory because you can't touch oil and mining companies or the large-scale ranchers and farmers. Kind of like throwing a kid out of school for having a nail clipper because some other kid shot 10 people at a another school.
Old 11th January 2011
  #147
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Tone Laborer's Avatar
One provision of the Lancey Act requires all US born guitarists to submit guitars for a Federal inspection. The fee is $65, per guitar. A Fish and Wildlife officer will examine your guitars. If possible violations and insubstantial inconsistencies are suspected in accord with and pertaining to section 2247 of the Lancey Act, Federal charges will be poontificated.

Once your guitar has been confiscated, you can apply for Form 365189-a, Rev. 2, to be considered for a review by a committee for possible redemption.
Old 11th January 2011
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mexicola View Post
I hope that the price of rosewood goes up so high that it's inconceivable for any guitar manufacturer to use it.
Can you imagine a Les Paul or SG with mable fretboards?
They'll look even uglier than they already do.
At least Fender guitars look good with a maple fretboard.

Or actually, I hope that Gibson buys all the rosewood and ebony it can get from the local madagascar mafia that is plundering madagascar's rainforests in marojejy national park. Then when an entire ecological system is destroyed, at least we'll know an american corporation turned some profit. dfegad

It appears that greed and shortsightedness know no boundaries.

HAHA! Man thanks for the laugh! Surely you don't take yourself serious, but it is funny no less.

"Mable FRETBOARD!"

Old 12th January 2011
  #149
Gear Addict
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer View Post
Good job FBI for going after the real threat to our society--the evil luthiers.
lex luthier?
Old 12th January 2011
  #150
Gear Maniac
 
Baroque's Avatar
all jokes aside... gibson is pretty stupid.

fender all the way.
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