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The DAW controller market ....I spit on it ! I spit on it !
Old 24th September 2009
  #31
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Nowak's Avatar
What world do you guys live in?

Why would a 32 channel control surface be cheap?

Components, R&D cost a fortune, getting a prototype alone can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.....

THEN - having the ability to mass produce something of 1/2 decent quality isn't a walk in the park either.

This isn't K-Mart.....
Old 25th September 2009
  #32
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Zachary's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowak View Post
This isn't K-Mart.....
+1



Old 25th September 2009
  #33
Lives for gear
Quote:
The best in terms of price value-price ratio I have ever tried is my BCR-2000...

All the snobs like to make fun of Behringer becuase it's inexpensive, but the BCR-2000 is the only ****ing unit I own that WORKS AS ADVERTISED.

I agree. I've never had a single problem with my BCR 2000 and bought it used for $100.

What I would like is the Behringer version of the Euphonix System 5.... 8 encoders per fader that can switch between controlling plugin parameters and sends; another encoder for panning; buttons for mute, solo, record, post and pre fader, and two led scribble strips - one for the track name and the other to display the the plugin mapped to the encoders. Make it 24 channels and you have a console for your daw. This would take 6 BCR 2000's and 3 BCF 2000's, costing around $1000 on the used market. If I knew anything about computer programming I might have attempted building this on my own. We'll just have to wait for Behringers version of automap before this is possible.
Old 25th September 2009
  #34
Deleted 86c3d96
Guest
If you need a device with motorized touch sensitive faders, you are probably going to source Penny and Giles for the parts For a 24 track board, the cost just for the faders is going to be ~$1000. My guess is that a complete product could not be manufactured at a MAP for less than $2000 at the absolute minimum.

I was lucky, I bought close out a Mackie Control Universal and two extenders for $1500, and that was a killer deal. Tascam closed out their 24 channel control surface for $800. I am not sure why people complain about the lack of a scribble strip. They have a software scribble strip, and with some care, and two monitors, you can easily create a nice replica of a built in scribble strip.

The point is that you can't build a motorized 24 channel motorized touch control surface for cheap. On the other hand, MCU faders are easily replaced when they do break, and they do break.
Old 25th September 2009
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry_seldon View Post
If you need a device with motorized touch sensitive faders, you are probably going to source Penny and Giles for the parts For a 24 track board, the cost just for the faders is going to be ~$1000. My guess is that a complete product could not be manufactured at a MAP for less than $2000 at the absolute minimum.
That's fine, I don't mind paying for quality ! But at the moment, in the DAW Controller market it feels like we're paying... but not for quantity or quality.
Old 25th September 2009
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB872 View Post
I've never had a single problem with my BCR 2000 and bought it used for $100.
Definitely, I have to say its thumbs up to Behringer for those units especially in terms of price, and I really don't know how much extra scribble note technology would cost to add on those units but the Behringer pricing on motorised faders seems about fair to me... so why do other vendors feel the need to charge so much.
Old 25th September 2009
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
Mackie sucks in my MACKIE USER opinion. They ****ed it all up with their lie about the "PRO" version. The original MCU is the one that is PRO in terms of hw. The chasis might be metal in the new version, but the original was truly a piece of art, and the faders worked far better and solidly. The new version was cheapened the heck out of it.
There you go, someone that agrees the new Mackie Control Universal Pro units are far from well built for the price!
Old 25th September 2009
  #38
Deleted 86c3d96
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy boy View Post
There you go, someone that agrees the new Mackie Control Universal Pro units are far from well built for the price!
Are the faders actually different on the two units? I own the original MCU, and I was playing with the "Pro" at GC, I personally didn't notice a difference.

I think it is a tough market. Control surfaces don't make anything you do inherently sound better, so top notch control surfaces can be a tough sell for the budget conscious.

There are devices like the Novation Remote Series which seem like a good idea, but don't use motorized faders, then there are products like the Faderport which give you one great motorized fader.

I understand that any device without motorized faders haver an inherent problem.

I really like the C24, but like many of you, I agree that most potential buyers would eschew the preamps for a lower price.

I was damn close to buying it's predecessor with an HD2 bundle for about $18k.

I suspect if some engineering teams saw a way to bring a quality control surface to market at an attractive price that peope would actually buy in a profitable volume, it would probably be done. Tascam was probably closest. Toss a scribble strip on the US-2000, and price it about $1500. That probably would have been real close.
Old 25th September 2009
  #39
Lives for gear
Quote:
Control surfaces don't make anything you do inherently sound better, so top notch control surfaces can be a tough sell for the budget conscious.
A control surface with a channelstrip per fader would allow you to eq two tracks at the same time so you can hear how they react to each other, allowing you to mix quicker and possibly resulting in a better sound. I'm not sure any controller at the moment allows you do this.
Old 25th September 2009
  #40
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
With a JM Lemur you can build your control surface to your specs.
There are limitations though, such as the size of the screen and the actual number of controls 1 screen can handle.

A bit too advanced also for those who are not too geeky.
Thx for the suggestion but I'm not really into touch screens for mixing. I'm holding out for an affordable daw console.heh
Old 25th September 2009
  #41
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slaves666's Avatar
How about we get a programmer to reverse-enginner the code for the Control 24, so we can use it on a PC Nuendo and Logic????
Old 25th September 2009
  #42
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Nowak's Avatar
Save up the dough and get this. It works with everything...very well.

Stef
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The DAW controller market ....I spit on it ! I spit on it !-tang1.jpg  
Old 25th September 2009
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowak View Post
Save up the dough and get this. It works with everything...very well.

Stef
Nice ...how much ?
Old 25th September 2009
  #44
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tobymusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowak View Post
Save up the dough and get this. It works with everything...very well.

Stef
Too much footprint for my taste. I "just" want 16 or 24 faders behind the computer keyboard, good quality faders that aren't too close together and a scribble strip so i know exactly what fader I'm touching. Simple as that.
Old 25th September 2009
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobymusic View Post
Too much footprint for my taste. I "just" want 16 or 24 faders behind the computer keyboard, good quality faders that aren't too close together and a scribble strip so i know exactly what fader I'm touching. Simple as that.
+ 1
Old 25th September 2009
  #46
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matt thomas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy boy View Post
Nice ...how much ?
if you have to ask... that setup is about 25+ grand USD

matt
Old 25th September 2009
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowak View Post
Save up the dough and get this. It works with everything...very well.

Stef
Yeah it works well, once you pass a Calculus exam to work it properly. I've seen video demos with that thing and it's a b*tch to configure if you don't already know how. Why do we need more complication? Music is complicated enough.

I have a wonderful, expensive control surface that I bought years ago and now that the BCF-2000 and the Frontier Design Alpha Track exists I think I probably wasted my money. I only use the faders, pan knobs and transport section, along with a few function keys. Other tasks are just more intuitive with the mouse and keyboard.

Just for tracking on location once I bought an Alpha Track and a BCF-2000 because they can actually work simultaneously and I was floored. Sure they're cheap and simple, but they get the job done just fine. You don't need some multi-thousands of dollars unit to mix a track comfortably. Are the bigger surfaces nice? Absolutely. Are they worth the money? Only if you've got excess money to burn. If you just want to mix and feel the faders and pan knobs, as well has have a few function buttons and a physical transport section then you're golden with a BCF-2000 combined with an Alpha Track. That's a $400 investment. Even if it breaks, and mine have lasted about a year and a half with no problems yet, they're cheap to replace, as they should be. I also know for a fact that the Mackie units are not built so finely. They break just as often as one cares to investigate. You don't need Penny and Giles to mix. You don't need all the other ammenities. You just need to make it happen and it's totally possible with some of the cheaper stuff.

What I would like to see is a controller similar to the Mackie control that cost about half as much. The BCF-2000 is missing a few features yet that I think would make it a single controller solution.

Liz
Old 25th September 2009
  #48
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Nowak's Avatar
Calculus exam to use it?

You have to be kidding right?

Stick to Behringer.
Old 25th September 2009
  #49
Gear Nut
 
Marc Girard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaves666 View Post
How about we get a programmer to reverse-enginner the code for the Control 24, so we can use it on a PC Nuendo and Logic????
I tried to get this going with Steinberg a few years ago... Neither Digidesign or Steinberg would like this to happen. I wanted to reverse enginer the ethernet protocol and write some kind of DLL (a la EuCon) for my Nuendo setup. Steinberg don't want to share the SDK for their Cubendo interfacing (Except maybe with Euphonix!).

Have a look-> nuendo.com .:|:. View topic - Control 24 for Nuendo

Cheers,
Old 25th September 2009
  #50
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Its good to see the really is a healthy demand for a professional high quality DAW Controller in 2009 !

Thats a great effort on the Control 24 Marc Girard, shame they would not co-operate !
Old 25th September 2009
  #51
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Nowak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy boy View Post
Its good to see the really is a healthy demand for a professional high quality DAW Controller in 2009 !

Thats a great effort on the Control 24 Marc Girard, shame they would not co-operate !
There are plenty of "professional high quality DAW controllers in 2009"

You have plenty of options.

You are dreaming if you think Digi would ever open their protocol up.
Old 25th September 2009
  #52
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code 10's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
Well, I paid 1200 euro for MCU PRO and 850 for and MCU PRO XT.

that's over 2k, and I was expecting the faders to last over a ****ing year at least.


Mackie sucks in my MACKIE USER opinion. They ****ed it all up with their lie about the "PRO" version. The original MCU is the one that is PRO in terms of hw. The chasis might be metal in the new version, but the original was truly a piece of art, and the faders worked far better and solidly. The new version was cheapened the heck out of it.

I would pay 3000 for a WORKING solution, with 24 fader, multiclient, with a more decent name display screen.


The only half-decent controller I have found is my JAzzMutant Lemur, though it has some bugs, and their staff is so ****ing slow at getting anything done.
Think you need to cool down with the swearing homeboy

Maybe there was a dodgy batch and you had ended up getting your hands on them, mine is fine.

Quote:
The best in terms of price value-price ratio I have ever tried is my BCR-2000...
Fisher Price rubbish! Yeah they have faders and what not but they pale into insignificance compared to a Mackie unit.

Quote:
All the snobs like to make fun of Behringer becuase it's inexpensive, but the BCR-2000 is the only ****ing unit I own that WORKS AS ADVERTISED.
I don't own any Behringer equipment out of an ethical stance, they are just vampires latching onto the some other folks ideas, I wouldn't have a problem if they came up with their own ideas and equipment but sadly this isn't the case, therfore I've decided never to own ANY Behringer kit.


Quote:
Your "you get what you pay" thing only applies to jewelry and cars, really.
You know thats not true.


Quote:
Music production products are as hyped over as hollywood garbage, and that's a heck of a lot.
Yes, some things are, one of my biggest gripes are the offerings from the likes of AMS Neve, basically living off the back of a name and charging huge prices for their kit, their 1073 DPA model to my mind is a total rip off, the crazy thing is there are units out there that are as good and better with more chanels for less money, sadly people still levitate towards the Neve badge, what a pitty.

In recent times the prices have shot through the roof of the Mackie units which I think a quite expensive, then again, what's out there thats better for less money? Nothing so far as I've seen.

It's going to be interesting if Apple *do* release a large screen touch device at some point, I think it will shake the market up a whole load, only time will tell if and when that will actually happen. Myself, I'm not too sure about the whole touch screen thing, I do like *real* faders, then again touch screen may just be the way to go
Old 25th September 2009
  #53
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code 10's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Girard View Post
I tried to get this going with Steinberg a few years ago... Neither Digidesign or Steinberg would like this to happen. I wanted to reverse enginer the ethernet protocol and write some kind of DLL (a la EuCon) for my Nuendo setup. Steinberg don't want to share the SDK for their Cubendo interfacing (Except maybe with Euphonix!).

Have a look-> nuendo.com .:|:. View topic - Control 24 for Nuendo

Cheers,
Hi Mark,

I was always interested in the Control 24 for Logic, it is a shame that Digi won't allow their designs to be modified to suit other platforms, but hey, its their device so they can choose what exactly they want to do when they want.

I think they would do very well if they did open their units up to other DAW makers.
Old 25th September 2009
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy boy View Post
Why oh, Why oh, Why oh, Whyyyy !
Is it too much to ask for a quality reasonably priced DAW Controller ? Is it ? Is it too much to ask for 16 to 24 touch-sensitive motorized faders ? Is it ?
Is it too much to ask for an ergonomic design and simple functionality ? Is it ?
Or has ITB mixing not reached the point where we deserve 16 to 24 faders ? All we have available to the ITB market is the Mackie Control Pro, and the the Euphonix MC ( both only have 8 faders ) and you pay out the a** for any more faders ! And I don't need built in crappy converters either, just a good quality DAW CONTROLLER. Am I the only person that is frustrated with this market, knowing full well they can develope a 24 channel or more desk at a reasonable price ( Tascam US 2400 ) but due to commercial gain they are probably holding this off till 2012 !!!

...damn this thread belongs in the moan zone !

...I'm about to make my own controller if I have to wait any longer !!!
spit on it?!

check this out!

Old 25th September 2009
  #55
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Musician's Avatar
3x Euphonix MC MIX

or

Mixed Logic M24

or

TS Control-32 by Red Leaf Technology (multitouch tft for DAWs)
Old 25th September 2009
  #56
Moderator
 
matt thomas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Googlyman View Post
TS Control-32 by Red Leaf Technology (multitouch tft for DAWs)
Has he got this multi touch now? last time I saw him talking about it it was only single

matt
Old 25th September 2009
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Googlyman View Post
TS Control-32 by Red Leaf Technology (multitouch tft for DAWs)
No offence ...but it's not multi touch ! ? Is this guy for real ? A DAW Controller that isn't multi-touch !!!
Old 25th September 2009
  #58
Moderator
 
matt thomas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy boy View Post
No offence ...but it's not multi touch ! ? Is this guy for real ? A DAW Controller that isn't multi-touch !!!
Its basically just a standard touch screen, albeit with a different way of sensing the touches. I believe the actual screen is a TV monitor too, and not a computer monitor as something like a cintiq would be. This would mean a larger screen is cheaper, but it is lower resolution and not made specifically for close up viewing. I still think it is an interesting product.

matt
Old 25th September 2009
  #59
Deleted User
Guest
Homies, be thankful you HAVE a Controller, some of us DONT

I still get it done, go figure
Old 25th September 2009
  #60
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code 10's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
homeboy, you need to be mentally prepared for others' experience and thoughts differing from yours.

- I have seen dozens of reports about bad faders that get mangled immediately underneath the metal enclosure (the orange coloured band).

- I have seen dozens of reports about the LCD in extenders not refreshing data properly in Cubase and other apps. Numerous units were returned, and mine was one of them.

- You are in love with your MCU. Fine. I regret I bought my MCU. Fine. Now let others share their personal opinions. So far, I see more people here stating that the built is far from as solid as it should be for a 1200 euro control surface.


"you get what you paid for" is not true, especially in this industry. There's a thread going on right now here in GS about the Euphonix MC. Go take a look. There's a ton of objective issues reported. Did they get what they paid for?

I also bought into the TC PowerCore scam. ****ing thing has NEVER ever worked properly. Oh, and their support sucks heavily.

My MCU xt has't worked properly since I bought it. I also had to return the main unit and get a different one due to the same fader issue. Did I get what I paid for?

Let's agree to this: "Sometimes, when you are lucky and the stars align in a favorable way, you get what you pay for". Which sucks from any perspective. Everybody should get what they pay for.


Your stand about Behringer is pretty snobby to say the least. Numerous respectable acts around the globe use the BCR-2000r and the old B2031a. And I am proud to say I still don't give a nut about that, and that I bought them after a personal test drive as soon as they came out several years ago, that confirmed they work as advertised. They didn't let me test drive the MCU nor the JM Lemur, which cost about 2,000% more.

Copying aideas? Don't be childish, show me the patent that says that Mackie invented control surfaces. What? Your heros are copying others too?

Everybody copies everybody in this industry. Look at Live being ripped off from its matrix sequencer system by Sonar and Native Instruments, etc, etc, etc.



.
Calm down dear, blow into a paper bag or something........

I'm about the least snobby person you'll ever meet, if something works for you then fine, I don't like the way Behringer operate and therefore swerve their kit, no biggie, just my very own ethical stance on what I deem as right and wrong. I'm not saying that Behringer have copied Mackie's controller, what I'm saying is their whole working practices stink, Bono could phone me up telling me how good their controllers are, I'd tell him exactly what I'm saying to you, Behringer are trash.

Why exactly are you labelling me as some kind of Mackie fanboy? You're about a million miles off target with that half baked idea I can assure you of that, their MCU Pro works for me and thats it, no more no less, if it doesn't work for you then move on, what's the big deal?
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