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How is this behringer stuff so cheap? sumtin not right Control Surfaces
Old 3rd May 2003
  #1
Little Labs
 
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How is this behringer stuff so cheap? sumtin not right

I received one of those musicians friends catalogs in the mail and was browsing. I am blown away by how cheap this behringer stuff is. This little $99 mixer we bought for the shop is not bad for checking mics. It's build quality is not all that bad either. If $99 is the end user price and the musician friends people buy it for lets say $60. Christ I don't get it, just the chassis with paint etc. is that much. I know they make thousands of these things but still. I am a small manufacturer and use only the best parts but even if I used **** parts and made thousands it would have to cost more, I know what parts cost. Is something unethical going on here? Any insights to what the deal with Behringer is. I heard the whole Mackie / Behringer story, but that didn't seem to slow them down. I almost feel guilty buying the stuff, like someone suffered in order to satisfy my materialistic urges.
Jonathan
Old 3rd May 2003
  #2
Moderator emeritus
 

I suspect that the parts are much cheaper in China as well as the labor.
Old 3rd May 2003
  #3
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Yeah, I guess some of the chinese labour might be under 16, as well as some political prisoners. The fact is that Uli Behringer doesn't have to know that. He just find some contacts in China who manufacture the **** and send it to Germany, why does he have to know if it is ethical or not ?

But you could say the same of Nike IMHO, you don't really need to sell cheap products to be unethical ...

malice
Old 3rd May 2003
  #4
Moderator emeritus
 

I'm not going to get n to the whole political discussion thing with this, but I wanted to point out that what passes for an 'average' wage for EU nations and the US are not really that common world wide. I remember reading that the average wage for a doctor in Iraq is the equivalent of around $30 per month, and I Russia isn't much higher.

And through the magic of dialectic materialism (or something like that) the price that a Chinese parts manufacturer charges a Chinese assembly plant dosn't have to have any direct correlation to economic reality or 'real' profit.
Old 4th May 2003
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Behringer rip off

I believe Behringer shamelessly copy other peoples designs, hence have no R&D costs. They depend on their ability to keep smaller companies such as Ebtech tied up in court so that they won't sue. Go get a Rode NT2 and A Behringer condenser and they are identical except the Behringer sounds like a phaser pedal if you go off axis by nore than 15 degrees. More throw-away surface mount crap we don't need IMHO.
Old 11th March 2006
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
Nosound's Avatar
 

Behringer reminds me of the Bill Gates story he worked for IBM learned the tricks of the trade, Started his own company outsold every company 4-1 and then our goverment didn't like the ideal of out selling everybody, So let sue the bastard and make him pay us. Same story different name.
Old 11th March 2006
  #7
Lives for gear
 
ImJohn's Avatar
Hi Johnathan,

Apparently another way they save money is by skipping compliance testing and verification :
http://www.conformity.com/enews030906/Article1.html


PS - I LOVE my Little Labs Digital Router!!!
www.littlelabs.com/digirr.html
Old 11th March 2006
  #8
Lives for gear
 
jchas's Avatar
 

I felt the same way a couple years ago when I bought a $99 Behringer mixer to use as a keyboard stage mix to the house PA. I couldn't believe I could get 8 inputs (2 with mic-ins), run a stereo feed, have a headphone out for my own in-ear monitor. I hadn't played live in years and since this was going to be a 1-nighter I didn't want to invest too much in a mixer that I may never use again.

Well, in the 3-months between buying the mixer and performing the gig the following happened:
1) One of the mic-ins popped leaving me with 7-line inputs and 1 mic (no problem)
2) The LED meters burnt out leaving me guessing at ouput signal (doable)
3) One of the line-ins would only pan left (nothing that channel reassignment cant fix)
4) On the night of the gig, during the first song, the headphone output went buggy - damn near blowing the in-ear monitor through my brain. Luckilly it only lasted a split second before it went totally dead (the ouput - not my left ear).

So we quickly rearranged the house monitors - but whatever caused the phone ouput to crash was now putting a fair amount of noise on the stereo feed (by fair amount I mean more than the fair amount it had before...).

So now I have a 5-channel mixer with no LED monitoring, no headphone output, 1 mic-input, panning problems, and a high noise-floor. About what I would expect for under $100.
Old 11th March 2006
  #9
Lives for gear
 
octatonic's Avatar
[QUOTE=littlelabsI almost feel guilty buying the stuff, like someone suffered in order to satisfy my materialistic urges.
Jonathan[/QUOTE]

You might start to fel better when it stops working in a few months time... and it will. :-)
Old 12th March 2006
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Thermionic's Avatar
 

When Beh copied the Mackie 8-Buss, they did such a thorough job that it even had the same fault, i.e. crosstalk in the sends... At least when a hacker removes the protection from a piece of software, he invariably removes the bugs (or so I'm told).

Beh is skimmed to the bone; I don't think they even have an R+D dept. Nor is Beh afraid to copy the big boys; Mackie is the tip of the iceberg... Any news on the Roland lawsuit?

I personally think that Beh have changed the landscape of "affordable" audio, and I believe they short-change users by making it difficult for OEMs to obtain funding; "why should I back a company whose designs will be copied in China for half the price?".

There is currently a movement (inspired by furniture makers, chairs particularly - you didn't think the audio industry wielded any clout did you?) to close the loopholes exploited by Beh; if the proposed legislation is passed, it should do us all a favour and remove the pustule that is Beh once and for good from the audio landscape

Justin
Old 12th March 2006
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
Nosound's Avatar
 

I glad Behringer keeps the competeors on their toes there not the only company that has took someone eles ideal Ford introduce mass distribrution and then everybody jump on the band wagon. The list is endless at the patent office about modifications to the same product's new and improved, Behringer helps the economics by supply and demand. Company's like Behringer get a bad rap because of this and that but in reality more peeeps own their products then any other audio company because of the masses can afford them . All company's have rejects at one point and time. Like I've ststed before Behringer sales speak for themselves. Hope they start making recording software that would be interesting.
Old 12th March 2006
  #12
Lives for gear
 
De chromium cob's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlelabs
I almost feel guilty buying the stuff, like someone suffered in order to satisfy my materialistic urges.
Jonathan
"Someone" didn't suffer, MANY people suffered.....

The estimated cost of Chinese factory labor is 64 cents an hour.

For comparison, hourly factory compensation in the U.S. in 2002 was $21.11, and an average of $14.22 in the 30 foreign countries covered by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (China is not included in that 30 country average). Even with the pay hikes Chinese workers have received since 2002, you can see that its just about impossible to compete with that kind of imbalance.

The U.S. trade deficit with China last year was a record $202 billion, compared with $162 billion in 2004. And is expected to grow by another $65 Billion this year.

Ad to that Uli's obviously shady business practices, lack of ethics and willingness to ignore the FCC's equipment authorization rules, and you just might remove the 'almost' from the sentence I quoted above......
Old 12th March 2006
  #13
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orange's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by De chromium cob
"Someone" didn't suffer, MANY people suffered.....

The estimated cost of Chinese factory labor is 64 cents an hour.
Can I assume from that post that you 'actively' boycott products manufactured in China or other cheap-labour countries (The Philippines, Taiwan, Malasia, Mexico etc etc). Companies like Apple, Telefunken, Sony, Nike. Products such as mics,TVs, computer parts, ipods, sneakers, t-shirts, Hard drives etc etc etc or is it just Behringer that you have a problem with.

It seems like your argument might be a little hypercritical. If it IS only Behringers products you boycott then it might appear to some people like you were more guilty of gear 'snobbery' than 'political correctness'.

On the other hand, maybe you don't like Behringer because they 'borrow' other people's designs and ideas. Then maybe you should boycott Royer who 'borrowed' much of the physical design of their 121 from B&O. Or is it because Behringer copied borrowed designs from Boss/Roland, who based many of their early designs on other companies products. Or should you boycott Marshall amps who 'borrowed' the design of the early amps from Fender. In fact once you start looking at guitar manufacturers then MOST of started by borrowing their basic designs. Lets be honest, the list is pretty long.

Some of Behringer products are OK, some are junk, some are 'borrowed', but they are all very reasonably priced (compare and contrast with Apple's Ipod !!).

If you want to slag off a manufacturer then at least get a decent and consistant reason.

PS I've never had any behringer product break down - But I've had some very expensive manufacturers equipment let me down !

PPS if you indeed DO NOT posses any equipment made in one of these countries (in that case I wonder how have you got internet accesss ???) then I sincerely apologise for calling you a hypercrite, if not then I think my point stands.


si
Old 12th March 2006
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Thermionic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by orange
Can I assume from that post that you 'actively' boycott products manufactured in China or other cheap-labour countries (The Philippines, Taiwan, Malasia, Mexico etc etc). Companies like Apple, Telefunken, Sony, Nike. Products such as mics,TVs, computer parts, ipods, sneakers, t-shirts, Hard drives etc etc etc or is it just Behringer that you have a problem with.

It seems like your argument might be a little hypercritical. If it IS only Behringers products you boycott then it might appear to some people like you were more guilty of gear 'snobbery' than 'political correctness'.

On the other hand, maybe you don't like Behringer because they 'borrow' other people's designs and ideas. Then maybe you should boycott Royer who 'borrowed' much of the physical design of their 121 from B&O. Or is it because Behringer copied borrowed designs from Boss/Roland, who based many of their early designs on other companies products. Or should you boycott Marshall amps who 'borrowed' the design of the early amps from Fender. In fact once you start looking at guitar manufacturers then MOST of started by borrowing their basic designs. Lets be honest, the list is pretty long.

Some of Behringer products are OK, some are junk, some are 'borrowed', but they are all very reasonably priced (compare and contrast with Apple's Ipod !!).

If you want to slag off a manufacturer then at least get a decent and consistant reason.

PS I've never had any behringer product break down - But I've had some very expensive manufacturers equipment let me down !

PPS if you indeed DO NOT posses any equipment made in one of these countries (in that case I wonder how have you got internet accesss ???) then I sincerely apologise for calling you a hypercrite, if not then I think my point stands.


si
No item of musical kit in my possession is Chinese-made, not one product. I have yet to hear one piece of audio made in China that sounds decent to my ears - they simply do not have the cultural know-how at this point IMHO; the Shanling CD player is close, but lacks detail and air IMO.

Some questions:

What is a hypercrite?

What product do Telefunken manufacture in China?

A comment:

If someone wishes to defend the most amoral manufacturer the audio industry has ever seen, that person's argument would be given additional gravitas if they were to invest in a spell-checker.

Justin
Old 12th March 2006
  #15
Lives for gear
 
De chromium cob's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by orange
Can I assume from that post that you 'actively' boycott products manufactured in China or other cheap-labour countries (The Philippines, Taiwan, Malasia, Mexico etc etc). Companies like Apple, Telefunken, Sony, Nike. Products such as mics,TVs, computer parts, ipods, sneakers, t-shirts, Hard drives etc etc etc or is it just Behringer that you have a problem with. If you want to slag off a manufacturer then at least get a decent and consistant reason.

PS I've never had any behringer product break down - But I've had some very expensive manufacturers equipment let me down !

PPS if you indeed DO NOT posses any equipment made in one of these countries (in that case I wonder how have you got internet accesss ???) then I sincerely apologise for calling you a hypercrite, if not then I think my point stands.


si
Golly, ya got me there! Because I am pretty much forced into using some products that are made in China it means that I'm a 'hypercrite'......(sure you don't mean 'hypocrite'?heh ) When given the choice, I'm very willing to pay more for products that are made here.

To me its more about our government being hypocritical.... China is our largest trade partner, yet you can't have a Cuban cigar because Cuba is a communist country. THAT makes allot of sense. I can assure you that I don't support our governments trade policies with China and let my representatives in Congress know it whenever the issue comes up....

Read up on the subject and I think you'll agree that in the long term its going to be a major problem for the U.S.

But it's really as simple as this- I don't like Behringers business practices or products, so I don't support the company.

Anyway, time to go ride my mountain bike (A '92 Klein hand made in California) and work off some of this winter studio fat.....
Old 12th March 2006
  #16
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

i think it is inevitable, at some point with today's trade policies and market environment, we will all have some made in china stuff in are lives.
i do not think quality is a maters were a product is made but instead a issue of manufactures and their policies.
cheap gear can be made any were as well as great gear.
from what i see most companies choosing cheap labor are not always passing these saving's on, and they are also cutting corners els-ware.
company's that stand behind their product, offer above average service, and value their employs, no matter were it is made, these companies get my money.
Old 12th March 2006
  #17
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

also as mentioned by De chromium cob
what's deal with Cuba, this is 2006?
the politics behind this ( has many other things as well ) seem to be screwed.
( as always ) are leader's are not telling the whole story, what hidden agenda do they have.
Old 12th March 2006
  #18
Gear Addict
 
tedcrop's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosound
Behringer reminds me of the Bill Gates story he worked for IBM learned the tricks of the trade, Started his own company outsold every company 4-1 and then our goverment didn't like the ideal of out selling everybody, So let sue the bastard and make him pay us. Same story different name.
I disagree with this. Microsoft corners the market because there is no competition. There really is no other software for networking, office use etc.. that is even close. It aint because it is the cheapest because it is not the cheapest. It is the only.
Old 12th March 2006
  #19
Lives for gear
 
orange's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermionic
No item of musical kit in my possession is Chinese-made, not one product. I have yet to hear one piece of audio made in China that sounds decent to my ears - they simply do not have the cultural know-how at this point IMHO; the Shanling CD player is close, but lacks detail and air IMO.

Some questions:

What is a hypercrite?

What product do Telefunken manufacture in China?

A comment:

If someone wishes to defend the most amoral manufacturer the audio industry has ever seen, that person's argument would be given additional gravitas if they were to invest in a spell-checker.

Justin
Justin,

I'm not quite sure that a spelling mistake negates my argument, but if you would prefer to concentrate on that then ok. I didn't realise that gearslutz insists on correct grammar and spelling. Either way I apologise sincerely and humbly for it and agree that it means my point is totally invalid !

I didn't suggest that you thought the Chinese were making decent sounding equipment, or that Behringer equipment was the best available. Indeed I feel that most Behringer equipment is complete crap and I wouldn't give most of it studio space. What I was attacking was the statement that Behringer should be singled out for criticism because they manufacture in China. I also don't think that because you don't use Chinese audio gear means that you have a moral high ground. This unfair-labour argument extends to almost all equipment/products manufactured in the far east not just audio equipment. Indeed you might find that even US made audio equipment uses many, many components sourced from the far east.

Additionally I'm not sure that I'm trying to defend 'the most amoral manufacturer the audio industry has ever seen (???)' but I am trying to balance the debate and trying to make a rational contribution. I am pointing out that many, many manufacturers borrow ideas and use a cheap far eastern manufacturing base - so to criticize on that alone is a little thin.

Re: telefunken - without dredging up an old thread (do a search) - The Telefunken R-F-T M16 'meticulously handcrafted' in the US ????

De chromium cob,

Being 'forced' to use products made in china does not make you a hypocrite but attacking/boycotting a company for using virtual 'slave labour' whist continuing to support others by freely purchasing their products seems to me to be hypocritical. I'm wearing Adidas sneakers (I wasn't forced to buy them), which brand do you wear ?

By all means attack behringer for making equipment that is unreliable/underperforming/sounding****e etc etc but I'm sure that there are very few people on this forum that have the high moral authority to criticize Behringer's manufacturing policy without being the danger of being a hypocrite.

To a certain extent Behringer do pass the massive savings in manufacturing in China on to the end user. Apple view the iPod as a luxury product and choose not to pass on all the huge savings to the end user. Which company is more 'honest' ?

si
Old 12th March 2006
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Thermionic's Avatar
 

Ok, I see. We're talking about "Telefunken USA"... I'm sure they have more in common with the original TFK than just a name...

Regarding spelling and punctuation issues: if it's clear someone is a native English-speaker (I would never pick holes in the post of someone whose primary language is not English), and they choose to become involved in a contentious ethical debate, I believe that their case is weakened in the eyes of onlookers if they do not take due diligence in their spelling. I will not mention this point again - others reading the thread can make their own minds up.

BTW, the spelling point wasn't solely directed at Orange; note the presence of an individual whose sole presence on Gearslutz is to defend Beh; Uli has done well in choosing someone imbued with such devastating articulacy to defend his cause.

I would concur that many companies are just as guilty as Beh with regards to exploiting cheap labour; however, one point in their favour would be the fact that the OEMs I can think of (F***s***te being one) produce original designs...

Justin
Old 12th March 2006
  #21
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orange's Avatar
 

The original question asked why Behringer stuff was so cheap.

the thread then goes on to attack Behringer for manufacturing in china/borrowing ideas/reliablity etc etc all points which might be directed at many other companies.

But maybe the original question might have been 'at $99 are they good value for money'. My answer would be 'if you have $99 to spend then they are very good value for money' (in my opinion).

PS - how do you know that English is my native language ? Wie wissen Sie dass ich nicht Deutscher bin? Oder Oesterreicher? after all I'm 'defending' Behringer ?!?
Old 12th March 2006
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermionic
Regarding spelling and punctuation issues: if it's clear someone is a native English-speaker (I would never pick holes in the post of someone whose primary language is not English), and they choose to become involved in a contentious ethical debate, I believe that their case is weakened in the eyes of onlookers if they do not take due diligence in their spelling
Hey bro...with all due respect...

That is genuinely a moot point.

There was a thread last month...if you really want to know how GSer's feel about this trivial counter-productive issue.

I..and countless other intelligent, competent, independent thinking forum members often mis-spell words...it has absolutley no bearing on the quality of the post. How could it?

I am also dislexic and a poor typist .And...sometimes... I am simply more concerned with saying what I want to say in a way that get's my point across than worrying about spelling errors.
...and sometimes I simply don't know the correct spelling.

Sometimes my fingers get in the way...or I mis-spell a word but It looks good when I scan the page, but then I find the error later on etc.

I have disabled spell check on this computer...not that I ever used it anyway.
I like to use my mind.

I realize that there are online spell checkers available...but it just isn't that important.

Learning to spell is critical for communication...but perfect spelling or one missed letter has nothing to do with common sense or intelligence. Zero.

Respect,
Old 12th March 2006
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange
Being 'forced' to use products made in china does not make you a hypocrite but attacking/boycotting a company for using virtual 'slave labour' whist continuing to support others by freely purchasing their products seems to me to be hypocritical. I'm wearing Adidas sneakers (I wasn't forced to buy them), which brand do you wear ?
Old 12th March 2006
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Thermionic's Avatar
 

Rodney,

I agree with your point relating to missing a letter out; however, we're talking about "hypercrite" here...

We should agree to disagree on this one. I will not argue the point again.

Justin
Old 12th March 2006
  #25
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orange's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermionic
I will not mention this point again
Justin
thumbsup


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermionic
I will not argue the point again.
Justin
thumbsup thumbsup

(Only joking !)

Despite the typo I still think my point is clear (and unanswered ?).

Just to confirm - I condem the terrible working conditions in far eastern sweat shops and think that pressure should be brought on major companies to use ethical labour policies for the manufacturing plants and I think that western governments have a large role to play here, BUT i'm still not sure why Behringer have been singled out for particular criticisim on this point.

When I started out in the recording biz the only equipment I could afford was poor quality or too expensive. When companies like Alesis started producting budget stuff in the 80s they made it possible for me to increase the quality of my recordings. I feel that behringer are just continuing that trend. It's almost unbelievable what you can get for almost nothing nowadays - I could never have thought you could get a half-decent LDC mic for peanuts like you can today.

Fortunately I have more money to spend than I did when I was a youngster so I prefer to buy better quality equipment, but I wouldn't criticise anybody for buying Behringer or any chinese gear (especially on 'moral' grounds).

I hope that more and more cheap recording tools find their way into the hands of the financially challenged - I feel it's a bit like "recording democracy".

si
Old 12th March 2006
  #26
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermionic
Regarding spelling and punctuation issues: if it's clear someone is a native English-speaker (I would never pick holes in the post of someone whose primary language is not English), and they choose to become involved in a contentious ethical debate, I believe that their case is weakened in the eyes of onlookers if they do not take due diligence in their spelling. I will not mention this point again - others reading the thread can make their own minds up.

Justin
i am a very dyslexic individual and never really learned to read or wright very well.
i do not think that makes me studio maybe a bit ignorant but ignorant in regards to reading.
i do not mind if someone point's out grammatical mistakes as i have no objection to learning, but that statement is way off.
misspelling in no way negates an individuals argument, ( except maybe you ).
to allocate no weight to a valid argument due to misspelling or i'll grammar, well that would be view as ignorance as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermionic
I believe that their case is weakened in the eyes of onlookers if they do not take due diligence in their spelling.
you are kidding right?
Old 12th March 2006
  #27
Gear Addict
 
ShamansDream's Avatar
 

I don't have any of their crap in my gear selection and don't plan to.
Nothing to do with ethics.
You can design stuff so cheap that it is bound to failure if it ever performed in the first place.
Old 12th March 2006
  #28
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

hell i got the spell check on my computer all screwed because i kept telling it to learn every time it could not offer a alternative to words in my poorly spelled vocabulary.
i thought learn meant go learn it i did not know it meant remember what i typed.
Old 12th March 2006
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Thermionic's Avatar
 

If someone wants their message to be taken seriously, yet takes so little care composing the message as to negate taking a few seconds to run the text through a spell-checker, why should anyone reading their post respect their wishes and grant serious credence to the message?

Let’s make a parallel: say you have a great guitar lick; would you make excuses for failing to tune the guitar on the grounds that anyone can tune a guitar, and it’s the lick that matters?

Let’s agree to disagree, ok?

Justin
Old 12th March 2006
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermionic
Let’s make a parallel: say you have a great guitar lick; would you make excuses for failing to tune the guitar on the grounds that anyone can tune a guitar, and it’s the lick that matters?

Justin
That is not a parallel bro...
They aren't related and don't compare.

Jimi Hendrix (amongst many) played out of tune...most of the time.
His message however was clear.

Written communication is dependant on so much more than spelling.
Context...for one, is also vital for clear written communication.

If you had trouble understanding what Orange was saying because he accidently placed and 'e' where he should have placed an 'o'... then you might have other troubles to consider.

I suspect nobody else on this site has any doubt what the word was or what he meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermionic
Let’s agree to disagree, ok?
I can give everyone the respect they deserve, and I thrive to even if sometimes I am not as graceful or grounded as I like. Maybe I am wrong but your comment seems to have been nothing short of a jab?...a quick shot to attempt to discredit the validity of anothers post by pointing out ONE mis-spelled word.

And then suggest that his case would be weakened by us onlookers because of it..

Nah..

Bottom line for me brother Thermionic...in my life...if given the choice...(and this is no reflection on anyone here in this thread)I would much rather read the mis-spelled words of a brilliant human...that the perfectly crafted and perfectly spelled words of someone less evolved.

I have known many brilliant men and women...some very schooled in books and some very schooled in the street. And occasionally someone who is schooled in both. But all of them brilliant none the less.

Respect,
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