The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
When to speak up ... or shut up etc.
Old 29th July 2005
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

When to speak up ... or shut up etc.

I find it real difficult to NOT get into a good old fashioned beer-fuelled debate with fellow musicians etc, but often walk away a little dazed and sometimes wondering what it is all about (ie. just a rant, or is there some truth to both sides).

My "favourite", or should I say "worst" recurring scenario is usually along the following lines :

Me ... "1176 on eBay, watching EAGERLY".

Musician friend ... "why? I downloaded some cracked plugz and they are fine".

Me ... "look, there is a 'sound' that is imparted by certain devices"

Musician friend ... "is it worth the money though ... I mean, will anyone actually HEAR it in the context of a song?"

Me ... "if you start compromising, then where IS the bottom line"

Musician friend ... "EXACTLY ... the people I want my music to be heard by couldn't be bothered by these small issues"

Me ... "why not just record your rehearsals with an overhead mic and cut a few CD's with Adaptec Easy CD Creator then and try to get on the National charts then?"

Musician friend ... "What's wrong with that if it sounds OK ... maybe a few overdubs at home on the PC ... only a 'sound engineer' would actually HEAR the difference and we are not trying to impress sound engineers".

Me ... sip sip sip ... "barman ... another beer please!"

The worst part of this is that I usually get into these kind of discussions with pretty good (and reasonably intelligent) musicians with pretty good songs etc and although the exact context of the debates is obviously not as above, the problem I find lies in the two opposite camps ... one side being the art of recording music professionaly ... the other being the profession of recording music as an art.

Sometimes I wonder if I should just keep quiet and let everyone alone to their own ideas etc, or if I should fight the good fight for the sake of GEARSLUTZ.

I mean ... come on ... I know what I am doing whilst I apply for that MASSIVE bank loan complete with HUGE interest rates DAMMIT ... I just can't REALLY tell you why!!

Cheers
Old 29th July 2005
  #2
Gear Addict
 
ExistanceMusic's Avatar
 

I just know some things, whether they be rooms, or equipment, or strange sounds or whatever, give me shivers down my spine, and make me feel all geeky and "oh my god sound is the cooled craziest thing ever".
This is (almost) never a plug, but usually something natural and real-life sounding.....



Where's that beeeer...
Old 29th July 2005
  #3
Lives for gear
 
TheReal7's Avatar
 

the amount of ignorance in the world is more then enogh to make us ALL look stupid.
Old 29th July 2005
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Bones...

Musicians that say that only say it because they were not offered to record at Abbey Road or something like that.

Its more of a ego thing than anaything else.

Kind of like a Toyota owner who cant afford the Bentley saying , he is fine with his Toyota because it takes him from A-B just like the Bentley would.
Old 29th July 2005
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Ziggy!!'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
Musicians that say that only say it because they were not offered to record at Abbey Road or something like that.

Its more of a ego thing than anaything else.

Kind of like a Toyota owner who cant afford the Bentley saying , he is fine with his Toyota because it takes him from A-B just like the Bentley would.

Im completely happy driving my Toyota... why would i want a super expensive car that i'll never wash and treat like **** anyway? You'd look more of a fu&king twit driving a bentley covered in dirt and with the back seat covered full of food wrappers and empty drink bottles.

Sure, if you gave me a bentley i'd have it... then sell it, buy a toyota and dine elegantly for the next year... Some things just don't do it for me... I'd get the exact same amount of enjoyment out of drving a ferrari as i would a tractor. Just take me where the f*%k i wanna go! I don't like traffic and I don't like sitting driving when there are better things i could be doing


I too have these kinds of discussions... but they are more to do with the sounds that can be made by the gear... for example...

them: put the 57 on the snare...
me: no f*%k that, lets put the 57 on kick and put the kick mic on snare
them: why would you want to do that?
me: how could you not do that? the kick drum wants to go on the kick, thats gotta be telling you it has to go somewhere else!
them: ok fine, put up the overheads...
me: tutt today they are going to be underheads...
them:
me: *has another puff*



don't knock it until you try it


there are also the non musical debates:

- Can diamonds be crushed?
- why do they sterilise a leathel injection?
- is nothing something?
- what happens if you are driving light speed in your car and turn your headlights on?
Old 29th July 2005
  #6
Lives for gear
 
TheReal7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
what happens if you are driving light speed in your car and turn your headlights on?

hahah nice.. thumbsup
Old 29th July 2005
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
Im completely happy driving my Toyota... why would i want a super expensive car that i'll never wash and treat like **** anyway? ?
thats because you never drove a bentley or have recorded in true high end places.

my comparison was not to debate about cars, but true high end studios and gear. No comparison with the cheap home stuff.

If someone records at a high end (true high end) studio, and then says he is happy recording in his bedroom with a pc is either a lier or an idiot : )

I did like your turn the lights on at light speed thing to
Old 29th July 2005
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Ziggy!!'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
thats because you never drove a bentley or have recorded in true high end places.

my comparison was not to debate about cars, but true high end studios and gear. No comparison with the cheap home stuff.

If someone records at a high end (true high end) studio, and then says he is happy recording in his bedroom with a pc is either a lier or an idiot : )

I did like your turn the lights on at light speed thing to

Im glad to see people still like to make premature assumptions...


creativity & originality isn't a curse, its a virtue... you should try it sometime
Old 29th July 2005
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
Im glad to see people still like to make premature assumptions...


creativity & originality isn't a curse, its a virtue... you should try it sometime
man , why do you take it personal! im just saying, if you would rather have a toyota than a bentley, chances are you have never driven one.

or if you think recording at a low budget home is the same as the real deal studio, chances are you probably never recorded in a big studio.

or if you did, you must be 1 in a million. cause I didnt meet people who have high end cars who would rather drive a toyota. sorry
Old 29th July 2005
  #10
Gear Nut
 
SoundChances's Avatar
 

I don't know about the Toyota vs. Bentley argument.
Just a year ago I sold my sports car and bought a Mazda 3 and I'm actually happier driving the Mazda!!!!

Sure I enjoyed having the option to do 170 and that the AC regulated itself and that I could rolldown the windows 50 feet away from the car. But you know what, it was still just a car and the payments and the insurance did not make those added luxuries worth it....
Old 29th July 2005
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChances
I don't know about the Toyota vs. Bentley argument.
Just a year ago I sold my sports car and bought a Mazda 3 and I'm actually happier driving the Mazda!!!!

Sure I enjoyed having the option to do 170 and that the AC regulated itself and that I could rolldown the windows 50 feet away from the car. But you know what, it was still just a car and the payments and the insurance did not make those added luxuries worth it....
well maybe im a car fanatic, but this discussion is not about cars.

the original poster was pissed because he meets musicians all the time that basically say, sound quality is not important because the end user.. blablabla..

all Im saying is that those musicians probably did not have the chance to record at a high end studio, or else they would not be happily settling for less.

I used a car analogy that didnt work, sorry : )
Old 29th July 2005
  #12
Lives for gear
 
octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones
The worst part of this is that I usually get into these kind of discussions with pretty good (and reasonably intelligent) musicians with pretty good songs etc and although the exact context of the debates is obviously not as above, the problem I find lies in the two opposite camps ... one side being the art of recording music professionaly ... the other being the profession of recording music as an art.

Sometimes I wonder if I should just keep quiet and let everyone alone to their own ideas etc, or if I should fight the good fight for the sake of GEARSLUTZ.
It happens all the time- I am lucky enough to be working mostly alone these days- I hate those discussions.
I mostly let them go- but occassionally I will chuck a wobbley and say my bit.

JR
Old 1st August 2005
  #13
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

Yep ... had another one this weekend.

Did a live sound job for a couple of bands and although the group in question were pretty young, naive and inexperienced, I simply couldn't resist logging the conversation to memory (having posted the initial thread the day before).

OK, so the band in question were trying to emulate "skateboard punk" as I call it ... not overly heavy ... maybe kind of Blink 182 - "ish".

Guitar ... about as intune as a guitar would be if you wound on a new set of strings and tensioned each one to what "feels" about right and then plugged in for the gig.
Bass ... (this is seriously true) ... obviously untuned as they don't actually own a tuner between them, was simply moving his hand at random up and down the neck and thumping single notes wherever a chord change should have taken place.
Drummer ... doing his UTMOST to include EVERY single trick he has learnt in EVERY POSSIBLE bar of EVERY song .... complete with frantic double bass pedal stomping etc.
Vocalist (also the one adorning the untuned guitar) ... displaying extremely well rehearsed agility and stage antics/dives/jumps whilst VERY excitedly singing completely out of key (EXTREME excitement heard in the voice ... almost falsetto in many places, like a VERY nervous maniac).

After the gig, when asked what I thought of them, the conversation went (as diplomatically as possible) something like this :

Me ....... You guys should get a tuner, keep it on stage and just tighten the "in tune" aspect of the songs and it would be a lot more solid.

Them ........ Most of the people at gigs just want to have a good time, so the music isn't really that important ... as long as we are "cooking".

Me ....... OK, but another thing is you should tighten up a bit with regards the wild stage antics ... I mean, it cooks, but get the words of the chorus INTO the mic first, and then jump around if you know what I mean?

Them ....... If it looks like we are having a good time the people will go off ... look at the big bands in the DVD's ... everyone in the audience is so "off their faces" they are more interested in the "vibe".

Me ....... Fair enough (blood pressure rising, but obviously realising that it really shouldn't get under my skin), but I still think that you should hone it all down to a controlled performance and for example, get the drummer to calm down a bit in the verses ... I mean he is literally doing like a thunderous drum solo over EVERYTHING.

Them ....... We want him to cook ... we want to be the most complex band in Town.

Me ....... (can't wait to get back online on Monday and post this pathetic little rant on my pathetic little thread) ......... BARMAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!

ps. Incase anyone is about to suggest the obvious ... I "DO" have a life!!

Ciao
Old 1st August 2005
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Ziggy!!'s Avatar
 

reminds me of an article in an audio magazine written by one of the engineers from turtle rock studios here in Sydney. Apparently there was an overly arrogant drummer there who thought he knew everything...

When the engineer told the drummer to get his drums tuned to A for the following days session, handing him a peice of paper with a tech's phone number on it to tune them for him, the drummer had a whinge and said he'll just do it himself... he knows what he's doing.

The next day the drummer came in with his tuned drums... they went to record and everything sounded the same... not the same as the day before... but he had wrenched every drum up to the same A note. The floor tom was buckling under the strain... According to the article he used a guitar tuner to get the A note

Old 1st August 2005
  #15
Lives for gear
 
blaugruen7's Avatar
bones,
isnt the most important point of punk music NOT being a musician?
Old 1st August 2005
  #16
Lives for gear
 
De chromium cob's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones
After the gig, when asked what I thought of them, the conversation went (as diplomatically as possible) something like this :
You should have just told them they suck balls and to get a clue before they further embarass themselves....
I've told people the hard truth before and had them all mad at me for a month or so and then actually thank me a couple months after that for telling them what no one else had the balls to say....

One guy that I recorded a grand piano for played me his almost finished tracks and everything sounded great- until the singing came in...
I asked him if they were some kind of joke scratch vocal tracks because they sounded so comical- He got all quiet and they were his finished vocals! OOOPS!

He ended up having a number of the best vocalists in the area come in and record the vocals instead and stuck to the piano.
Old 1st August 2005
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Kestral's Avatar
 

Nevermind a Bentley, I drive a BMW 5-series, I've owned it since 1991 and I couldn't be happier.

Lately I've been thinking what car I would replace it with and I was thinking maybe a second hand Volkswagen about 3 years old (that's statistically the best time frame to buy a used car) but then I sat in a friend's recently model BMW 3-series. Dear sweet mother of Christ, I don't think I could ever go non-BMW! So when the time comes, I'm going for a 3 year old BMW 3-series.

I was in the original poster's situation. Friends were into prosumer gear, half-assed setups and plugins.

You know what I did? I got new friends that were into vintage 1176's, Neve 10-series boards, vintage U47's/ELA M 251's and doing major label work.

And you know what? As a result, my game stepped up too. The stuff I did when I was in "prosumer" mode to the stuff I do now is way better. I guess its true what they say, that the people you hang around have a huge effect on your life.

But the biggest gain of all is that my former prosumer friends still fret on eBay and wish for this and that and "one day..." whereas I already know what gear I need to do whatever. If I don't have the gear, I buy or if I can't afford it, rent it for the project, and then just get it done. In short, no dickering around. I think that by far was the biggest improvement.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
The floor tom was buckling under the strain
heh heh heh

Cue sound typically used in Hollywood production when train/bus is teetering on edge of cliff ..... or when submarine has been taken to utterly ridiculous depths!!
Old 2nd August 2005
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blaugruen7
bones,
isnt the most important point of punk music NOT being a musician?
I hear you, but in a way, that is MY point ... sometimes it is real difficult to check your spontaneous "knee jerk" reaction to what may well be a "valid" point.

These guys were not really full on punk as such (I know, I know ... what IS full on punk) .... they actually belive that the pathway to a dedicated 1 hour slot on MTV is waiting just a step or two beyond the dance floor which was filled with .... errr let me see ..... their three weak-kneed girlfriends!!
Old 2nd August 2005
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blaugruen7
isnt the most important point of punk music NOT being a musician?





BULLLLL****TTT!!!!!!!!!!


Try learning a Billy Zoom (X) guitar part sometime, and they play it with his command and attitude...

Try covering a classic ska tune and having it sound brilliant and like you wrote it (The Clash, "Police and Thieves")...

Try sounding half as tight as NOFX (OK not my thing, but try and tell me they're not musicians...)

Try playing ANY Bad Brains song at those tempos...

Try writing 40+ catchy songs for a double album (Minutemen, Double Nickles On the Dime)

Etc, Etc, Etc...
Old 2nd August 2005
  #21
Gear Nut
 
FilmDingo's Avatar
 

{insert sound of soul being torn from body}

I had a prosumer setup - A&H board, Jomeek, etc etc. My customers loved it. They never complained about the pre's not sounding focused enough, or the 'meek going overboard on color. They just wanted to play. And they paid me. The gear did not pay me, the band did.

So why TF did I sell everything in search of higher quality gear? Because what we do should be creative too. And at some point you learn the subtle limitations of 'prosumer' and your creative spirit demands you do a better job - not for them, for you. And when you do get better tools, it seems to rub off on your attitude and you try harder in the other areas.

You go from "let's just get this recorded" to "let's get this sounding awesome, and then record it".

The problem may be that many musicians really don't have the experience to appreciate the difference between a Neve and and an Allen and Heath. Yeah, but you can, and it shows in the mix when all those extra tweaks and efforts get added up.

Having said all this - it's better to use what you have and make frackin' good music than sit on your butt and wait untill you can have that mic pre that cost the same as your last console.

My area is saturated with $200 - $400 a day studios with reasonable gear, so there aint a lot of money in having a $20K set of pre's and mics. But then you get started on "is it art, or is it commerce." The art side of me wins in my head. My family can eat commerce.

Thanks for the space to vent a little hot air.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
JohnnyTooLoud's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Generic





BULLLLL****TTT!!!!!!!!!!


Try learning a Billy Zoom (X) guitar part sometime, and they play it with his command and attitude...

Try covering a classic ska tune and having it sound brilliant and like you wrote it (The Clash, "Police and Thieves")...

Try sounding half as tight as NOFX (OK not my thing, but try and tell me they're not musicians...)

Try playing ANY Bad Brains song at those tempos...

Try writing 40+ catchy songs for a double album (Minutemen, Double Nickles On the Dime)

Etc, Etc, Etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones
I hear you, but in a way, that is MY point ... sometimes it is real difficult to check your spontaneous "knee jerk" reaction to what may well be a "valid" point.
I think Mr Generic just did a fine job of making your point of "knee jerk" reactions!
Old 3rd August 2005
  #23
Gear Maniac
 
cultureofgreed's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Generic





BULLLLL****TTT!!!!!!!!!!


Try learning a Billy Zoom (X) guitar part sometime, and they play it with his command and attitude...

Try covering a classic ska tune and having it sound brilliant and like you wrote it (The Clash, "Police and Thieves")...

Try sounding half as tight as NOFX (OK not my thing, but try and tell me they're not musicians...)

Try playing ANY Bad Brains song at those tempos...

Try writing 40+ catchy songs for a double album (Minutemen, Double Nickles On the Dime)

Etc, Etc, Etc...

Try playing any Jesus Lizard album from start to finish without your arm falling off.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #24
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTooLoud
I think Mr Generic just did a fine job of making your point of "knee jerk" reactions!
Huh?



.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #25
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones
Sometimes I wonder if I should just keep quiet and let everyone alone to their own ideas etc, or if I should fight the good fight for the sake of GEARSLUTZ.

I mean ... come on ... I know what I am doing whilst I apply for that MASSIVE bank loan complete with HUGE interest rates DAMMIT ... I just can't REALLY tell you why!!

Cheers

a few things come to mind

a) there is no debating taste (and in a perfect world no legislating taste either!) a large percentage of humans have never and will never give a damn to try harder.

b) musicians want to feel all powerful, and are cheap on gear in many cases. now although they almost are (all-powerful) the quality of a recording can have a major effect on who will hear their power. it can widen the audience and exposure dramatically.

c) the quest for the holy grail of quality (or tone) is a personal (private) journey.

d) equipment is very expensive guitar pedals. it's still about the guitarist to the audience, but it's the tone to the player.

and yet

e) an mp3 of a great recording will sound better then an mp3 of a ****ty recording of the same material


f) if they dont get it, you might need some new friends! thumbsup
Old 3rd August 2005
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
you might need some new friends! thumbsup

That is probably the only answer .... besides me shutting up! heh
Old 3rd August 2005
  #27
Lives for gear
 
wallace's Avatar
 

It's important to surround yourself with like-minded people and people who can stimulate and inspire you. It's also good to treat conversation as a method for learning about yourself and your own direction, even when you don't agree with someone.
Old 4th August 2005
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
Bones's Avatar
 

Absolutely. thumbsup
Old 4th August 2005
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
cfjis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones
Them ........ Most of the people at gigs just want to have a good time, so the music isn't really that important ... as long as we are "cooking".
I can't tell you how much that made me laugh.

Self-awareness is something musicians tend to be deficient in... I think its in the job description. And, that can lead to one of 2 things: supreme coolness or high-comedy. You got the high-comedy end of the stick.

One question:
how did you keep a straight face while they were saying all of this??

Cheers,
CJ
Old 4th August 2005
  #30
Gear Addict
 
ExistanceMusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
....and yet

e) an mp3 of a great recording will sound better then an mp3 of a ****ty recording of the same material

An excellent comeback to ye olde "it's only going to end up on an iPod, so why bother" argument!!
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump