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Tell me that I´m wrong
Old 17th July 2005
  #1
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Tell me that I´m wrong

First we had that that anti-authoritarian education period when parents misunderstodd the concept completely and let the kids grow up practically without guide nor social concern. Then came the key era, you know, with kids who had their homes key around the neck for nobody being home during the day. Their social introduction being accomplished by TV programs.

That brought a mentality of egocentrics with it. Now we have a majority of self-covering asses and in the same time everybody needlessly restricted in his personal field. Be it in traffic where the association doesn´t suffice to let through when you want to make a left turn, where the first cars at the red light make a slow start so that only a few can follow through. Where people return home in the night and crank their stereos or shout around for being oh so natural by not giving a rats ass etc.pp.

Am I alone with this observation or do we face a serious decline of empathical skills and ethics?

I had a band of twens here to record them for nada. Deal being them getting the tracks for nada and me using the result as studio demo.

I liked them, treated them well. Cared a huge deal to get them best sound and gave a lot to have everything to their desire. Put food on the table once or twice a day, dishwashing for the most on me too etc. No big deal, considered them guests.

In the first recording days the guitarist wanted to play for himself while we were tracking vocals. I send him to my bedroom to not leak into the mic.

Next time I wanna go shopping I find only like 15 bucks in my jeans lying in the bedroom. Had been to the bank days before grabbed 150 and had only bought a couple pieces of food. I wondered why so little left, but proceeded.
Couple days later a similar case, but as I never know exactly how much I have in the pocket I didn´t think too much about it again. But I closed the bedroom door. In the night when they left it was open.

So, I watched how they door used to end up open through a couple of days. Coincidentally, the guitarist liked to leave before the others and each time it took a too long time until the entry door was heard. Or you hard how it was opened, but not how it was closed.

K, long time later the band comes to listen to the mixes. The guitarist asks me whether I have weed to smoke. After they leave the gras is gone altogether.
I call him up, he denies.

I search the whole house several times. Next time he comes by for we had appointed an editing change. I tell him that I am not sure but that it looks like theft to me and that we will not be doing the edit and that he has to not put his foot in here again until I know better. I tell him that I will find out the day I´ll be moving from this place. Should I find it back I´ll be sincerely apologizing otherwise he´ll learn me from my ugly side.

He blubbers what people blubber then and leaves.
I can´t believe that someone would be so consistantly lying, so I search the whole house for another five days, because I want to really know what´s up. It drives me crazy to look into the very same corners again and again and again like an idiot.

Masters are ready and I´m invited to attend a CD release party, but am not planning to attend.
Suddenly a letter comes in per post from that guitarist guy. He apologizes, allegedly the stole to have been only to hurt me, because he had been angry, because I had told something wrong about editings made and that he was drunk and so. - And that he didn´t even smoke it, but threw it into a river. ( A guy who smokes like a loco ... )

I am always very impressed when people admit crap. So I directly sat down answering per mail that it would be a good sign that he couldn´t live with it etc. ...

However from a later talk it showed that he has no sight on the discrepancy of stealing, and the less stealing from someone who lets you in your house and treats you as a guest. It´s not such a big deal to him.

The true reason for confession seems much rather that he was either persuaded by his girl friend who might have found the stolen good or that he was afraid of me the day I would finally find out, respectively how I would behave on the CD release party.

Anyway, being ****ed up about the modern zombieness anyway, this event really turned me off. This guy´s state of perception comes to my mind again and again and I´m having a hard time coming over it.

It´s not that I´m aggressive. But I feel very deep digust and most of all I´m lost trying to understand.

Really treated these people well, have been kind and concerned as can be and they seemed rather taken than anything.
How on earth can someone be so utterly pitiless inside like this piece of human crap?

I just had to vent about it. Thank you very much.

Ruphus
Old 17th July 2005
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus
Really treated these people well, have been kind and concerned as can be and they seemed rather taken than anything.
How on earth can someone be so utterly pitiless inside like this peace of human crap?
You wouldn't believe how many times I'va said or thought this myself...
This kind of situations remind me how pathetic the human race can be/is...
Old 17th July 2005
  #3
Lives for gear
I'm sorry you had this lousy experience.
No doubt you'll also have some great experiences in music, and many more lousy ones as well.

But I don;t buy the generalization.

I don't believe that there are trends or 'eras' in parenting style or that you can characterise a generation as having a particular personality trait.

I could give you plenty of examples of assholes recording in the 60's and i have not the SLIGHTEST doubt that there were as many in the 50's, 40's, or 30's.

Buddy Rich wasn't apparently parented any better than your band.
Old 17th July 2005
  #4
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Thermionic's Avatar
 

Isaiah Berlin felt that the balance of "black" and "white" within the human being was a constant, and the concept of "overall moral decline" was not the case. His point being that behavioural patterns change with the times, influenced by current social values - i.e. values move sideways, not better or worse overall.

An example: you could look back at the Victorian Freak-Show, with the guy with the webbed feet / bearded lady / seal boy etc, and remark that the Victorians had slack moral values. Today, we don't have Victorian-style Freak-Shows, but you have "Big Brother"...where's the difference?

(For Berlin scholars - I did simplify this somewhat...)

Justin
Old 17th July 2005
  #5
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

I posted this ugly story to have some exchange of thoughts. Since inside I do want my view to be wrong.

I know that there have always been assholes around ever since and my first similar experience was a day school friend whom I had invited to our place over the weekend and who took an expensive watch in our house, which happened back in the mid seventies.

And I can imagine how merciless the wild west must have been and how on the other hand people in a similarly uncontrolled situation for some reason decided to go for cincerity to benefit at least their own community like it seems in the outback in Australia or in New Zealand.

Yet, I´m hoping to be wrong about an unsocial trend.

However, what you say sounds like no cultural changes could effect mentality which I do doubt a lot.
And I think to see a changing ground. Not that the past had all been paradise, but I don´t think to be suffering from nostalgic fallacy when I conclude that younger times mean lesser social skills and superfluous vegetation.

For example when have you attented the last concert with a big family feeling where joints and boddles of wine would let go to cycle among strangers?

Or when have you last time seen a bycicle that had one of those funny locks we used to have in the past that needed only a strong thumb to make them useless, but which used to be sufficient, cause hardly anyone used to steal it anyway?


Ruphus
Old 17th July 2005
  #6
Jax
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One of the toughest, saddest but most worldly things to learn is that not everyone can be trusted. I believe that this is far more the case in the urban jungle than it is in smaller communities. In a rural village for example, the social fabric and its boundaries are defined by the fact that in general, everyone knows everyone else. The people in such a village have to answer to eachother, with fewer exceptions to the rules than can be found in the common large, bustling city.

The anonymity and alienation from one person to the next in a metropolis is completely non-communal and allowing for all sorts of deviations away from social responsibility.

But this is no revelation, just a reminder that the Golden Rule is more seldom lived by for people to whom it was never taught, practiced or otherwise given much importance.

It is ugly to think that the value of what you offer someone is decreased and devalued unless you put a pricetag on it. Unfortunately, this is a truth in many more facets of life than I am often willing to accept. In your case, this meant that your "guest" saw you as a sucker and was ready to put you through the wringer for it. If there was more time for you to know your guests before you trustingly and admirably let them into your home, perhaps all of this could have been avoided.

So, I can't say that you're "wrong." I can only say that from the outside, it looks like you were naive to think that strangers would be as upright about what's right as you are. I'm sorry it had to be that way cos you seem like a good person. You could maybe stand to be a bit more scrupulous about who it is you let into your house for extended periods of time, and I hope you will.

I admit I speak from experience and I empathize, as very similar things (and far worse) have happened to me. Since then, I've added a few more rivets to my shell, but I still try to be fair and just.



p.s. - Yeah, I also don't believe that it's time to make sweeping generalizations about socio-cultural development to define YOU and THEM. We're all different versions of the same thing, and we all have all of everything human within us.
Old 17th July 2005
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

You give an inch, they take a mile. That's how it works for some people. I recorded my first rapper for free since it was my first job, and I didn't know how it would turn out. Then, when he came back for his second cd, he thought the same thing, and i corrected him, and told him he'd be paying. After most of the songs are finished, he still hasn't paid, and he showed up to record the other day, a day on which he promised me money, drunk out of his mind, and left in a half hour because he was about to throw up all over my equipment. Piece of Sh**! I asked about the money before he left, and he said, he gets paid on thursdays, and proceeded to give me this look like, "you should have known I wasn't going to pay. What's wrong with you?!" I can't stand some people.
Old 17th July 2005
  #8
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Hi Jax,

Yes, I came in contact with these kids through a pinboard of the conservatorium.
I wouldn´t think myself to be completely without clou about human reality, but in a way you always hope that being fair would generate appropriate reaction. It is wishful thinking that can work out or it might not.

In the end the other band members didn´t know of his character either and just learned about it with this case.
However, it seems the event to have not impressed them much.

Quote:
Since then, I've added a few more rivets to my shell, but I still try to be fair and just.
You see that´s the aspect that annoys me the most. I hate suspicion. Everywhere you go in a store, a bank or whatever house everything is double checked, in the supermarket everyone now has to lift his bags from the trolley ... Not to speak of possible private suspicion and fears. All this ****, because of some people think themselves to be smart and others with ethics to be just stupid losers.

Someone told me in big studios they had everything locked away. Only leaving branded matches and ball pens around which would make advertising for the studio if taken away.

It really turns me off that you have to approach people that way, only for the scumbags among them.

Others seem to doubt on cultural influenec, but to me it appears quite like you won´t learn ethics as a kid when nobody´s around to show you how to come to it and that cultural products like movies where asshole-being is narrated as being cool won´t contribute positively either.

I understand that there is a tendency of less association happening and that its development to be a cultural consequence.

Ruphus
Old 17th July 2005
  #9
Jax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus

You see that´s the aspect that annoys me the most. I hate suspicion. Everywhere you go in a store, a bank or whatever house everything is double checked, in the supermarket everyone now has to lift his bags from the trolley ... Not to speak of possible private suspicion and fears. All this ****, because of some people think themselves to be smart and others with ethics to be just stupid losers.
Nah, I'd say that "some" people don't think they are better than the other guy, it's just that they don't know the other guy... and there's not enough time to do a background check (lol.. sort of).

That doesn't mean the other guy must be a stupid loser, just that he *might* be.

And you're leaving out all kinds of variables in the equation. The other guy might be living somewhere between lower-income and destitute poverty. So he views stealing from you as a means of survival (not saying this is the case with your guest-thief-asshole). Or he might be mentally disturbed, or he might be angry because he thought you were being a dick about some edits (sounds like a lame druggy's excuse to me, but...). Not that most of these things are an excuse, but they are considerable obstacles against which you'll hit your head on occasion.

Basically, don't let a bad experience here and there take you down a notch in character. Keep ya head up, but only stick your neck out for the right people.

thumbsup

I understand the need to rant when you've been burned!
Old 18th July 2005
  #10
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
Basically, don't let a bad experience here and there take you down a notch in character. Keep ya head up, but only stick your neck out for the right people.
I have not let such things change me basically, besides of being a tad more cautious than in the teen times.
The more it turnes you off when it occures.
There is that difference between safe cracking and emptying open pockets which makes the special PITA.

Anyway, thanks for understanding. For your own experiences you know how that is.
( I had more expensive cases too in the past, all in all values that could equal a really nice outboard array.)

Ruphus
Old 18th July 2005
  #11
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RichT's Avatar
 

You're wrong.

(I haven't bothered to read the reams of text above but I'm fairly certain I'm right)

Old 18th July 2005
  #12
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Will you get out of here, Rich! > shoves out the door < heh This is adults only.
Old 18th July 2005
  #13
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichT
You're wrong.

(I haven't bothered to read the reams of text above but I'm fairly certain I'm right)

LOL

Kittonian has relatives in the UK, eh?

Old 18th July 2005
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
cultureofgreed's Avatar
 



I think you can thank this man Edward Bernays
Old 18th July 2005
  #15
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Renie's Avatar
 

I'm with Jax on this pretty much.

I'd add that it helps to recognize that we ourselves are often not the saints we'd like to see ourselves as..

heh

And I find it helpful to understand people's process, what makes someone behave in a 'disappointing' way?

I ask myself if is it really sound what I'm expecting, and, if yes is the answer, I then ask what makes someone destructive?
there is so much damage played out in families and in wider cultures it's not too hard to see why. It helps me to understand and stops it feeling so personal.

As Jax says naivity and denial won't help us, getting clear boundaries and strength do.

Disgust and dismay are something to feel, process and move beyond in my view.
Old 18th July 2005
  #16
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cfjis's Avatar
 

Hey Rufus,

Sorry to hear about this situation... unfortunately, it can and does happen.

But, I feel like the important thing is to not let those pathetic, lost souls who feel it is okay to feed off of others drag us down to their shallow, self-centered levels. Just cause others suck, doesn't mean we should, too.

Hang in there...

-CJ
Old 18th July 2005
  #17
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Thank you CF, :O)

There are many better and partially unbelievable fine characters out there, I know. Guys like this won´t make me lose trust in general.
It´s only that it has you thinking for a while before getting over it.
Actually I´m surprised myself how much it stirred me up, eventhough it is only about a stranger.

Renie,

You are msitaking if you gather someone thinking the saints of himself sitting here. I have come pretty early to seek the bad in me, realize it, work against it and define out the imperfect sides that I´m willing to live with.

I am not saint and I´m mistaking daily on diverse level.
Still, I find if you are willing you can develop a certain degree of ethics. Note please that I´m speaking of ethics, not morals. An inner instance arising from own comprehension and very own will to empathy.
The sentence "What you don´t want others doing to you, don´t do to others" is a true premise in my life. And when I brake the rule in a slight manner there do follow thoughts about it.
It doesn´t need holyness to do so at all. Only someone who does not want to be an asshole. That´s all.

So, while being not saint for sure I can guarantee you that I am worlds away from stealing from any person. Even if I was hungry I wouldn´t steal from little people. You can bet your arm on that.
And not in a lifetime would me take even a match away from someone who invites me into his house.


The funny thing is that I told this story yesterday to you guys and just today came in an e-mail from the bassist.
He says that his semseter is over now and thatwith having more sparetime he had started thinking about the case and that the arguments of his friend have become more and more incongruous in his mind and that he would like to meet with me for a beer.

I can tell you guys that I really appreciate the circumstance that he has obviously spend another thought on this damn story. It just feels better to see that they are giving something about what their mate did.

And while I couldn´t lecture the thief, for beating him wouldn´t make sense in my understanding and no other means at my disposal, I can see now how his band mates will be doing it. I´m sure that they will be unable in the future to trust him entirely and how he will on the long run be losing the gig.

I hope that could make him consider eventhough chances likely are little. Grown up without ethics is almost impossible to adjust I fear.

Anyway, as you figured already it does good to speak to people who understand the universal sense behind consideration.

Best to you ,

Ruphus
Old 18th July 2005
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

I hope the beer's on the him.....
Old 18th July 2005
  #19
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Renie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus
Renie,

You are msitaking if you gather someone thinking the saints of himself sitting here. I have come pretty early to seek the bad in me, realize it, work against it and define out the imperfect sides that I´m willing to live with.

I am not saint and I´m mistaking daily on diverse level.
Still, I find if you are willing you can develop a certain degree of ethics. Note please that I´m speaking of ethics, not morals. An inner instance arising from own comprehension and very own will to empathy.
The sentence "What you don´t want others doing to you, don´t do to others" is a true premise in my life. And when I brake the rule in a slight manner there do follow thoughts about it.
It doesn´t need holyness to do so at all. Only someone who does not want to be an asshole. That´s all.

So, while being not saint for sure I can guarantee you that I am worlds away from stealing from any person. Even if I was hungry I wouldn´t steal from little people. You can bet your arm on that.
And not in a lifetime would me take even a match away from someone who invites me into his house.


The funny thing is that I told this story yesterday to you guys and just today came in an e-mail from the bassist.
He says that his semseter is over now and thatwith having more sparetime he had started thinking about the case and that the arguments of his friend have become more and more incongruous in his mind and that he would like to meet with me for a beer.

I can tell you guys that I really appreciate the circumstance that he has obviously spend another thought on this damn story. It just feels better to see that they are giving something about what their mate did.

And while I couldn´t lecture the thief, for beating him wouldn´t make sense in my understanding and no other means at my disposal, I can see now how his band mates will be doing it. I´m sure that they will be unable in the future to trust him entirely and how he will on the long run be losing the gig.

I hope that could make him consider eventhough chances likely are little. Grown up without ethics is almost impossible to adjust I fear.

Anyway, as you figured already it does good to speak to people who understand the universal sense behind consideration.

Best to you ,

Ruphus
Ruphus

It's difficult and complex. I understand you feel strongly about fair play.

You say you would never steal "from little people" (?) I would like to think I wouldn't but who knows, I hope the day never comes, but I'd rather steal than starve and die.

Striving to live justly and honourably is a goal and a privelige.

All the best

Rene
Old 18th July 2005
  #20
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

It´s true, Rene, like you say, one can´t 100% guarantee about his actions in the future. While feeling pretty certain about what I would basically do or not, I´m only speaking with view on my past, hoping to go on like that and at best improve.

Yet, our examples were about big hardship like serious hunger, not about the situation with that guitar playing zombie. I think I wouldn´t like to live if I was as dead inside like him. When you have just a bit of soul you can´t live like that.

I recall how I told him to not scare my cat for it has a heart defect. He had noticed through the time what a dear animal it is, but still went like "It has a heart defect!! hahaha!"

I think types like him are good for the environment like pest or cholera are. Their parents should be constrained by life to live with them to the end of their days and taste what ill-suited desease they formed.
His obviously never came to think, they made 8.

Ruphus
Old 18th July 2005
  #21
Gear Head
 

i'v lived in london all my life and consequently have become almost impervious to this kind of bull**** - i don't know if thats something to be proud of or ashamed of to be honest.

at the end of the day on the issue of trust - i just don't give it out - it has to be earned over a long period before i even consider inconveniencing myself for anyone. occassionally someone will get vexed and try and play me with the 'whats the matter dont you trust me?' line . i just answer 'no'.

like i said - nothing to be proud of but just the way it is.
Old 19th July 2005
  #22
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Renie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus
I recall how I told him to not scare my cat for it has a heart defect. He had noticed through the time what a dear animal it is, but still went like "It has a heart defect!! hahaha!"

Ruphus
Ruphus

That's a pretty big clue someone damaged is around, the more we notice the clues the more information we have about self protection!

Poor guy, he's obviously been brutalised along the way.

It's good to challenge this behaviour, as you did.

Best wishes,

Rene
Old 19th July 2005
  #23
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

You are totally right, Rene! I should had known from then on or even earlier when their was hiss to be heard several times when the guy was alone for only a moment with my cat. ( Only very short moments, I watch out for the cat anyway.)

Not to prolong the thread needlessly, but you have just mentioned two significant points that I believe worth to be taken notice about for everybody.

From my experience people who steal from others are not that very seldom, but they get very seldomly confronted. First of all naturally, because thiefs make use of situations where you can´t tell 100% ( like for instance gatherings. Got my silver lighter picked on a party months ago for example ), but most of all, because most victims first of all are generally afraid of clearing conflicts ( culture of dispute taboo and distorted images of harmony ) and secondly are ashamed of declaring their concern about a material good in question.

[ To me the breaking of rule starts with little items like for instance the notorious one way lighter and ball pen grabbing that is going on all the time. They think it costs litte, so what. No clue about the distorted principle of what they are doing. ( At the second day of tracking time already 4 of 5 lighters that I had lying around were gone. The one left was the one that didn´t work. I was left with literally no cigarette lightning option in the house. )
When I point this to the people who do so they reply it would be happeneing unconsciously. I answer like "WTF, when you discover that you return home with more lighters all the time you have simply to watch out to stop that habit. Period!" I just hate to run around and ask people for firing up my cigarette, only because someone has disappeared with mine.]

These two points seem why stealing is practically encouraged, lowly thiefs very seldomly get to face consequences. They get the material benefit so easy without consequences that they continue their way of being.

Now, a much more important point.
A while agao I read on a very interesting study about psychological consequences of divorce childs with adversarial parents.

When one parent badmouths the childs other parent he introduces a minor consciuousness to the child. Involuntarily identifying with the "bad" parent it develops serious mental damages. The study said that childs growing up like that become unpredictably perfidious and sadistical, that they steal and often tantalize animals.

And indeed, I know one guy who grew up with his mother declaring his father to be evil ( which he isn´t, I know him too ) and the boy, now a man, matches all these discriptions. He steals, I have cought him once spitting into the meal of his best friend - without even any cause - that he had grown up with since kindergarden times and I know of two cases where people feel reluctant to let him baybsit their pets ever again, since the pets appeared weirdly changed after being supervised by him.

In the same time, if you saw that guy you wouldn´t believe all that hard heartedness behind his surface. Actually, he is of VERY sympathic and calm appearance.

So, first of all you divorced parents watch out what you are doing, if you agitate against your former partner before the kid it will get seriously psychotical. And you people with creatures that can´t defend nor wittness, like babies or pets, better omitt individuals´s supervision with a possible parental background like that.

Ruphus
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