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Ethan Winer on... Condenser Microphones
Old 11th September 2008
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perversity View Post
Wow, it's the revenge of the gearpimps! It's funny that it's okay for Ethan to call me a liar, for you cheerleading salespeople to call me childish, and then try to chastise me for attacking Ethan. If I get canned from this site, so-be-it, I really don't care. Seems to me that this site is for you gearpimping mf's to try to pitch your bs products to us end-users. I think it's about time one of you got flamed for all the bogus misinformation you promote.fuuck
No its just that you are so rude.May stop acting like a preteen and back up your claims.People like you are just annoying on this forum.You joined a few month ago and pushing your ego aroun´d in front of you like a giant E-peen.
Stop it and learn.
Eithan likes to discuss it seems,so atleast discuss and dont act in a imature way like YOU DO AT THIS MOMENT.
Old 11th September 2008
  #302
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Weasel9992's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by perversity View Post
Wow, it's the revenge of the gearpimps! It's funny that it's okay for Ethan to call me a liar, for you cheerleading salespeople to call me childish, and then try to chastise me for attacking Ethan. If I get canned from this site, so-be-it, I really don't care. Seems to me that this site is for you gearpimping mf's to try to pitch your bs products to us end-users. I think it's about time one of you got flamed for all the bogus misinformation you promote.fuuck
...or you could be an even bigger jerk. For Ethan to say something you said was a "bald faced lie" (which is exactly what he said) is a not at all the same thing as your comment about suing and lawyers. What you said was childish...it was an angry comment that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If you think Ethan's wrong, tell him why he's wrong. I'm not standing up for Ethan or saying that he's right or wrong. I'm simply promoting the idea of civil debate, that's all.

Frank
Old 11th September 2008
  #303
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studjo's Avatar
 

I still love the vocal sound on those vids

Last edited by studjo; 11th September 2008 at 06:57 PM.. Reason: not worth the hassle
Old 11th September 2008
  #304
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perversity's Avatar
 

Nice way to back track your previous statement Ethan.thumbsup I also really like how you call me a liar, a loser and god knows what else, all while trying to play the victim. Glad to see that your above all this name calling that us "losers" fall into.
Old 11th September 2008
  #305
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perversity's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluxpod View Post
No its just that you are so rude.May stop acting like a preteen and back up your claims.People like you are just annoying on this forum.You joined a few month ago and pushing your ego aroun´d in front of you like a giant E-peen.
Stop it and learn.
Eithan likes to discuss it seems,so atleast discuss and dont act in a imature way like YOU DO AT THIS MOMENT.
Yeah your right. I probably don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have 4000+ posts. It's funny that you think this is about my ego. I'm not the one that makes ******** "scientific" claims, post results that are biased towards my claim, then boast about how much I know because I've written a few articles for EQ or Mix magazine. I saw this post go up on day 1, and tried not chime in. I tried to hold my breath, but there is only so much bull**** I can take. For the last couple of years, I've seen various forums filled with this guys nonsense. IT'S ABOUT TIME SOMEONE CALLED HIM OUT. Remember, I didn't start this forum. I'm only one of many to chime in.
Old 11th September 2008
  #306
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by perversity View Post
For the last couple of years, I've seen various forums filled with this guys nonsense.
Ah, got it now. Hi Joel.
Old 11th September 2008
  #307
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imloggedin View Post
wonder when a mod will close this thread. its just become an ethan bashing.

dont cry out to the mods come on everyone will live to see another day
Old 11th September 2008
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Ah, got it now. Hi Joel.
That's my suspicion as well.

Frank
Old 11th September 2008
  #309
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perversity's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post
That's my suspicion as well.

Frank
That, or you just happen to rub people the wrong way.
Old 11th September 2008
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perversity View Post
Nice way to back track your previous statement Ethan.thumbsup I also really like how you call me a liar, a loser and god knows what else, all while trying to play the victim. Glad to see that your above all this name calling that us "losers" fall into.
Who are you? How can you be upset about someone calling (some might say proving) you a liar when you are posting in an anonymous way? Weren't you just calling Ethan a liar about the test files?

Food for thought: Why are none (or very few) of those opposed to Ethan's point of views in this thread sharing their real names/standing in the industry?

No one would be as rude as they are if they had to be held personally accountable for their actions.

I think if this forum had forced real names (ala prosoundweb) there would be a lot less assholes. There would be the same number of people, but people would be a lot more respectful of others.
Old 11th September 2008
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Given that the attributes are subjective, wouldn´t it be enough with only one person disageeing to prove the test wrong?
A good question. This is where testing methodology comes into play.

For example, if we test enough people will see a more useful 'average' trend, where the anomalous responses are less significant and we can see a pattern emerge.

A good example of this would be the various equal loudness research (eg. the well known Fletcher & Munson work).

While equal loudness effect is subjective, there are strong enough trends that we can take very useful general information from the study.

The mechanics of the ear, the environmental damage we may have suffered, the manner of testing and many other factors can affect the results, but we can use this subjective information to inform our investigations into the mechanics of the ear, which shows us the reasons for the equal loudness effects.

In the same way, while we are not all subject to exactly the same auditory masking mechanism & thresholds, in general we can see trends of how auditory masking works and from this we can predict that if auditory masking is responsible for the perception of 'depth', we can expect similar consistency & trends.

There would be little value in simply lining up a panel of subjects and asking them: "does the recording have 'depth'?"

We could ask a million people and learn almost nothing from the test.

We would have to break the concept of 'depth' down further into 'auditory masking precedence evaluation'. In other words, taking several sources and asking the subject to subjectively place them in z-order, while varying loudness & spectral shape/content for each source.

We could also use this kind of test to demonstrate & prove the way in which compression reduces 'depth'.

Andy
Old 11th September 2008
  #312
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Weasel9992's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by perversity View Post
That, or you just happen to rub people the wrong way.
Maybe I rub you the wrong way. Using the plural might be just a teeny bit presumptive and arrogant, don't you think?

Settle down. No need for hostility.

Frank
Old 11th September 2008
  #313
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post
That's my suspicion as well.
I'd suggest that a mod check the poster's IP address, which can then be matched to the two IP addresses I have here. But since he's been caught three times already posting pot shots at me anonymously, I'm sure he's learned how to use a cloak service. For $5 per month you can appear to be posting from the other end of the world.

--Ethan
Old 11th September 2008
  #314
Gear Head
 
perversity's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor999 View Post
Who are you? How can you be upset about someone calling (some might say proving) you a liar when you are posting in an anonymous way? Weren't you just calling Ethan a liar about the test files?

Food for thought: Why are none (or very few) of those opposed to Ethan's point of views in this thread sharing their real names/standing in the industry?

No one would be as rude as they are if they had to be held personally accountable for their actions.

I think if this forum had forced real names (ala prosoundweb) there would be a lot less assholes. There would be the same number of people, but people would be a lot more respectful of others.
So your saying you DON"T hear the hum? Your saying you don't hear a difference? If that's what your saying, then sorry for you poor fella. I can PLAINLY hear the hum in the Apogee samples. To me, this is an OBVIOUSLY biased test. Now I'm a liar for pointing this out? This makes sense to you how?
Old 11th September 2008
  #315
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
don't feed the trolls
Yep, works for me.
Old 11th September 2008
  #316
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Mike Brown's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by perversity View Post
So your saying you DON"T hear the hum? Your saying you don't hear a difference? If that's what your saying, then sorry for you poor fella. I can PLAINLY hear the hum in the Apogee samples. To me, this is an OBVIOUSLY biased test. Now I'm a liar for pointing this out? This makes sense to you how?
What is so difficult about understanding that Ethan said that the hum was only audible when the music was not playing?

In fact on my system he is absolutely correct.

Stop attacking me and tell us who you are. What studios do you work at?

If you feel you are absolutely correct then why do you continue to keep yourself anonymous?

Why not sit down with Ethan at a conference and debate this like mature individuals?

Its easier to be an asshole to words not to people.
Old 11th September 2008
  #317
Gear Head
 
perversity's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
I'd suggest that a mod check the poster's IP address, which can then be matched to the two IP addresses I have here. But since he's been caught three times already posting pot shots at me anonymously, I'm sure he's learned how to use a cloak service. For $5 per month you can appear to be posting from the other end of the world.

--Ethan
You think I care enough to use a cloak service? Your guilty of name calling as much as I am. If the mods want to stop it they can and will. Notice, that I'm not the one calling people losers, and liars and the like. I'm simply stating that what is one mans opinion should not be called a fact.
Old 11th September 2008
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds View Post
Anyway, after adjusting level and polarity the Apogee file still sounds better. This is quite audible on the acoustic guitar, where the fine details on the strings in the high end and the fast attacks are much better represented, the SB has more of a washed-out sound. Now if you were to process these files afterwards in a DAW, and send them through the converters again for outboard processing, these effects accumulate in a manner that makes them very obvious in the end product even on low end systems.


sums it up very good imho!
Old 11th September 2008
  #319
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds View Post
This is quite audible on the acoustic guitar, where the fine details on the strings in the high end and the fast attacks are much better represented, the SB has more of a washed-out sound.
I hear only a very small difference, but I'll be interested to know if others feel the sound quality is really as different as you guys seem to think. Anyone else? Here's those two (only) links again:

Guitar into SoundBlaster
Guitar into Apogee

--Ethan
Old 11th September 2008
  #320
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Ethan, what are the converters you are listening through yourself?

Do you record and mix yourself? Because this is where the differences between converters get really obvious. What may seem a minor improvement can get pretty siginifcant in the mix context and with processing applied.
Old 11th September 2008
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
I hear only a very small difference, but I'll be interested to know if others feel the sound quality is really as different as you guys seem to think. Anyone else? Here's those two (only) links again:

Guitar into SoundBlaster
Guitar into Apogee

--Ethan
i hear a difference on my laptop speakers but its SooOOo small



damn you ethan...damn you
Old 11th September 2008
  #322
Gear Maniac
 
RonCarlston's Avatar
 

yea same deal checked through ATH-M30 headphones. apogee has a little more body and the soundblaster has more of the pick scratchy kinda sound

ill say it...its like the difference of doing a tiny little EQ boost.




*runs and hides*

edit: now lets see the mic test though
Old 11th September 2008
  #323
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds View Post
Ethan, what are the converters you are listening through yourself?
M-Audio Delta 66.

Quote:
Do you record and mix yourself? Because this is where the differences between converters get really obvious.
I record stuff all the time.

Did you listen to the guitar samples? If not, do that now through your own playback system and let me know if you think the difference between the $25 SoundBlaster and the $6,000 Apogee are really as large as others say. I'm not saying they're identical, but to me the difference is small. In other words, it seems this would not be the limiting factor in a typical project studio.

--Ethan
Old 11th September 2008
  #324
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
A good question. This is where testing methodology comes into play.

For example, if we test enough people will see a more useful 'average' trend, where the anomalous responses are less significant and we can see a pattern emerge.

A good example of this would be the various equal loudness research (eg. the well known Fletcher & Munson work).

While equal loudness effect is subjective, there are strong enough trends that we can take very useful general information from the study.

The mechanics of the ear, the environmental damage we may have suffered, the manner of testing and many other factors can affect the results, but we can use this subjective information to inform our investigations into the mechanics of the ear, which shows us the reasons for the equal loudness effects.

In the same way, while we are not all subject to exactly the same auditory masking mechanism & thresholds, in general we can see trends of how auditory masking works and from this we can predict that if auditory masking is responsible for the perception of 'depth', we can expect similar consistency & trends.

There would be little value in simply lining up a panel of subjects and asking them: "does the recording have 'depth'?"

We could ask a million people and learn almost nothing from the test.

We would have to break the concept of 'depth' down further into 'auditory masking precedence evaluation'. In other words, taking several sources and asking the subject to subjectively place them in z-order, while varying loudness & spectral shape/content for each source.

We could also use this kind of test to demonstrate & prove the way in which compression reduces 'depth'.

Andy
Ok, I see what you are saying but isn´t it different when you deal with something that relates to taste rather than anatomy.

I guess a field test could give an indication of what the average think is vibey or danceble. But wouldn´t this be extremely complicated since this varies with different sub cultures, age groups and even time since it´s probably related to fashion as well.
Old 11th September 2008
  #325
Gear Addict
 
RBowlin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
M-Audio Delta 66.



I record stuff all the time.

Did you listen to the guitar samples? If not, do that now through your own playback system and let me know if you think the difference between the $25 SoundBlaster and the $6,000 Apogee are really as large as others say. I'm not saying they're identical, but to me the difference is small. In other words, it seems this would not be the limiting factor in a typical project studio.

--Ethan
Hmmm... not a lot of difference on my computer speakers. I'll listen more closely when I get back to my studio. There's really no need though. I'll hear a difference not matter what. That way, I can justify all the money I've spent.

-Rich
Old 11th September 2008
  #326
Lives for gear
 

Now I went and read your original post at 3daudioinc. First of all: The ADA8000 is ten years old. Clocking has improved quite a bit since then. But it's still not a bad unit


Anyway, you won't hear much of a difference through a Delta 66. And since you're not arguing about measurements, you're arguing about what YOU hear, this is a major factor here.


The price difference is much smaller if you consider the per-channel costs of the Apogee unit at it's current (used, obviously) price.


I'd really suggest for you to try out a current converter with ultra-low jitter and high-speed-opamps like Mytek to hear how big these differences can get.

Again, the differences between using the SoundBlaster and the Apogee FOR AN ENTIRE SONG and for going in and out of outboard would be all to obvious in the end result. I cannot stress this enough. All the ugly artifacts of bad converters get into the spotlight when EQing and compressing the signal. I've made mixes with the converters of a creative card (EMU 1820m, which measures fabulously) and good quality outboard which all came out useless due to these problems.

The impact on the sound is so significant it will even matter for the project studio. Which, by the way, is not the level people here are aiming at. Professional sound quality cannot be had with a SoundBlaster.


BTW, I'm still interestend in some real scientific tests of the transient performance.


QUOTE=Ethan Winer;3482008]M-Audio Delta 66.



I record stuff all the time.

Did you listen to the guitar samples? If not, do that now through your own playback system and let me know if you think the difference between the $25 SoundBlaster and the $6,000 Apogee are really as large as others say. I'm not saying they're identical, but to me the difference is small. In other words, it seems this would not be the limiting factor in a typical project studio.

--Ethan[/QUOTE]
Old 11th September 2008
  #327
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I know i said good night Chet but ....

I listened to both files over my not that sucky (IMO) computer speaks and didn't hear anything I could put my finger on, but they sounded a little different to me each time I listened to them,,, damn my meat microphones...and my environment is not optimal for critical listening (I can't hear the hum in my computer speaks right now over the air conditioner cranking, and I'm not going to turn the air off for you).

It seems a complete lack of difference could be definitively proved by nulling out those two files. Perfect null, no difference QED. Any residual of an imperfect null leaves a window open for honest debate about whether the difference found is audibly significant? By listening to the null, if it sounds nasty, that suggests to me the difference might be undesirable. But if you've done many null tests you'll know there are lots of fairly innocuous differences between audio chains that can appear worse than they really are when listened too in isolation.

Arguing about where to draw the line between significant and insignificant errors does not seem like an easily resolved issue, especially in an forum like this. Design engineering is all about making such calls on a routine basis when the cost seems out of proportion with the benefit. But even this is subjective as cost is a relative concern between different populations or in the case of products, different market segments.

Extreme performance is a "feature" some customers are willing to pay for whether they need it or not. I would never argue that there are absolute performance criteria that should satisfy all comers because the customer is always right, even when they're wrong. You want more XYZ? Sure, how wide can you open your wallet?

If anything I find it instructive that the wider market seems to be rejecting actual audio advances in the hifi playback side when offered. There is a certain wisdom in large numbers that shouldn't be ignored. Recording needs to be some reasonable margin better than consumer media but beyond that it may be ineffective use of our resources, for unrelated personal motivations.

Of course opinions vary...

JR
Old 11th September 2008
  #328
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Ethan, I'm sorry to say this but I think that you are under attack from people who replied YES to this thread: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...ng-yes-no.html

And as we all know, smoke is not good for equipment, organic or otherwise. Smoke clings to the synapses, forming a film which in turn introduces a form of jitter, which I think at this point we can all agree is a form of distortion. Used in Clintonian amounts, this distortion is very low, on par of that of a well designed ferrous based transformer, creating a euphonious effect. Used in Snooptonian amounts, however, this distortion can increase to Big Muffian levels (Although many are divided on this last point, falling into the Tube Screamian, Ratonian, Zoomist, et al. factions. ) thus inducing nescient behavior. If this distortion is allowed to climb to extreme levels, sagaciousness will be effectively masked.
Old 11th September 2008
  #329
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
I hear only a very small difference, but I'll be interested to know if others feel the sound quality is really as different as you guys seem to think. Anyone else? Here's those two (only) links again:

Guitar into SoundBlaster
Guitar into Apogee

--Ethan
I hear more dimension on the Apogee track and more headroom allowing a smoother more natural representation of the performance. More realistic capture overall like you're listening in the room. Finger attack is more pleasant as well - more musical. Finger attack on the SB track is more metallic/harsh.

The transients on the SB track sound more harsh (like an ice pick), especially when you hear the finger-squeaks during chord changes. Less dimension so the track is a little "flatter" and pushed forward causing kind of a proximity effect, like the mids to upper mids are being shoved in your face. Sounds like you're listening through the microphone instead of in the room.

I also noticed the phase is reversed on the Apogee track so I auditioned it both as you posted it and with the phase inverted as well.
Old 11th September 2008
  #330
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You cannot easily null these files, because the clocks ran at slightly different speed. There are also other factors that influence the differential signal like phase alterations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRoberts View Post

It seems a complete lack of difference could be definitively proved by nulling out those two files. Perfect null, no difference QED. Any residual of an imperfect null leaves a window open for honest debate about whether the difference found is audibly significant? By listening to the null, if it sounds nasty, that suggests to me the difference might be undesirable. But if you've done many null tests you'll know there are lots of fairly innocuous differences between audio chains that can appear worse than they really are when listened too in isolation.

JR
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