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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th March 2003
  #241
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5down1up's Avatar
 

one more time recorderman ,

if you are honest about what you said , that those guys are the " TYPICAL AMERICANS " than your opinion on this thread is even harder to understand .

" just get out of our way "

if the u.s would be that sure about their ideas , what are they waiting on ??? you are talking like the whole u.s wants the same , but thats NOT TRUE .
you are acting like you know whats wrong or right . but the conclusions you are coming up with are defenately , sorry ,

WRONG WRONG WRONG ... no points for you

heh

and no , you dont get an extra bonus cause you are " older " .
turn on your brain and think about it what would be the best for you and your family .
if you want the war to take care of your personal belongings , dont forget ,

WAR means , both sides attack ...

you are just yelling that loud cause you think you are totaly safe and the country you are gonna attack will lose anyway .
thats what you are probably right about , but dont forget those people who will lose their houses , kids and wifes ...
its brought to them by the u.s , and if they get their chance for revenge , THEY WILL ...

and then they are gonna kill some americans , and their hate is getting bigger , bombing again ... PERFECT CIRCLE .

so i dont see any point why you wanna start this ???!!!

MALICE , stay on board ...
Old 8th March 2003
  #242
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up

MALICE , stay on board ...
Yeah, I realise I shouldn't let you guys down heh

...Or some smart guy here will say that I'm a french coward.

thanx for reminding me

still if the pro-war here take their informations from Skynews, we won't have a gentlemen discussion very soon. tutt

let's not fall in that vicious circle

malice
Old 8th March 2003
  #243
It occured to me that if Saddam agreed in the next 10 days

To step down, supervised by the UN
Have democratic elections supervised by the UN
And distroy weapons, supervised by the UN
To have a full time UN presence supervising the above

He could make monkeys of Bush & Blair.

Anyhow, if there IS a 10 day period prior to action, diplomatic action will be interesting to follow.

Failing that, every military building in Iraq will probably be reduced to a crater in the first hours.

It's the high altitude "safe distance" bombing that folks fear will wipe out the odd residencial area, school, or hospital by accident.

Only days to go now!

Old 8th March 2003
  #244
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
Oz,

about your posts and picture : fuuck

As a french citizen, and even as a human being, I'll pass on thoses jokes.
But that kind of crappy tasteless propaganda is just useless **** in this discussion.

As someone from this board pointed out : a friend is somebody that warn you if you make a mistake...

Well, I just did it .

Good day

malice
Ok, I get it. It's ok to bash Bush and the U.S... but god forbid ANYONE criticize France. I'm entitled to my opinion, as long as it agrees with yours?

Look, it's not "tasteless propaganda." It's a real reflection on North American feelings towards France at the moment... and there are a great deal of people over here that are pissed off.
Some people write essays, I thought I'd try some Humor. If you're offended by it, well, that wasn't my intention. It's just the rampant Anti-US/British bashing going on here needed a strong retort.

And BTW, I don't consider Frenchmen all cowards. There were many brave French souls who fought in the Battle of Britian, D-Day, as well as the underground that risked everything for freedom.

But in the town I live in, we have streets named Somme, Vimy and Ypres(the first place Chemical weapons were used, btw)... As well as our downtown park, Dieppe Gardens. That's because young men from my city fought and died in those places. For France.

I'm not expecting France to bend over backwards to the US & Britain, but a little support would be nice.
It just seems that France is more interested in protecting it's Oil Interests in Iraq than supporting it's allies.
Old 8th March 2003
  #245
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by OzNimbus

I'm not expecting France to bend over backwards to the US & Britain, but a little support would be nice.
It just seems that France is more interested in protecting it's Oil Interests in Iraq than supporting it's allies.
Ok, that IS what I would call a valid argument. I don't agree with you, but I can understand the interest of you saying that, and how it would make sense in your demonstration about "France should support US" subject.

I don't think I bashed US citizens in any posts I made, nore that I stated that we (France) should stop our friendly relations with an allied country such as US. I don't recall one of our newspaper describing GW Bush or Tony Blair as a worm.

There are US citizens that fought along with french citizens and saw their brothers died in Normandy beaches, I strongly doubt they would swalow that picture you posted from your fellows from USAF. I strongly doubt that the people from US army that sent you this were on Omaha beach during D day.

Veterans that live that hell would surely tell you to show some respect to this monument that sealed France, US, and the allied friendship thru history.

Try to understand, I don't like Bush Policy, and the war that will come in 10 days. But I don't judge the American people as a community, and I strongly invite you not to do the same with the french community.

Politics are one thing, friendship between two allied country, even in the middle of a crisis is something beyond that.

Feel free to criticise my country, as long as it is constructive, I won't mind.

Peace Oz

malice
Old 8th March 2003
  #246
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Plus6
Jules,
When the people of Iraq are dancing in the street and hugging American soldiers after they are freed, I will be looking forward to your "European style" Thankyou.
You must be joking... Dancing in the street and hugging American Soliders? I will be shocked if that ever happens.
Old 9th March 2003
  #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith
You must be joking... Dancing in the street and hugging American Soliders? I will be shocked if that ever happens.
Hmmm. That is exactly what happened when the US tossed the Taliban out of Afghanistan. Dancing, huggng, crying, thanking....all of it. I've talked with artists who have travelled there recently. They were astounded at how thankful the Afghan people were to Americans for getting rid of a dictatorial government. Actually, it's happened to American soldiers many times over the years. I believe to not be aware of that would require some effort.

I think those of us posting on this forum have very little clue how it would feel to live under a brutal dictator. Like Hussein.

One other note. Nashville has the largest Kurdish population in the US, oddly enough. Several of the churches here combined on a project to help Kurds who were in danger escape after the Gulf War, alerted by Christian missionaries in that area. Hussein was slaughtering them at that time, and but for the US and British enforcement of the no-fly zone, many, many more would be dead. As a result, there are over 6,000 Kurds living in the Nashville area. I bump into them here and there in the course of my day. Nice people, especially considering how and why they got here.

These Kurds have been holding pro-Bush and pro-American rallies here in town, of course pretty much ignored by the media. It seems, having lived in Iraq, their perspective might be fairly relevant. They friggin' hate Hussein and have endless stories about his atrocities. For decades. They are thrilled to have hope of returning to live in their own country without being hunted like animals. No, I'm not exaggerating.

Maybe I should invite one of them to post here, for a dose of reality in the midst of our pseudo intellectual and comfortably removed discussion. I think it might be an eye opener for some of us.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th March 2003
  #248
Do the Kurds have a country of their own?

I wonder if they hope to get one established as a result of a regieme change in Iraq.

I live in a Kurdish / Turkish area, I see no cheering just yet. The Kurds cant have dug the US' offer to Turkey of $30 Billion.....

As for "comfortably removed"

http://www.eveningstandard.co.uk/new...ing%20Standard
Old 9th March 2003
  #249
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
[B]Do the Kurds have a country of their own?

I wonder if they hope to get one established as a result of a regieme change in Iraq.
The truth is that Turkey also is guilty of extreme brutality toward kurds.
They are so use to be deceived by both Iraq and Turkey, I strongly doubt they would have any hopes about this war, or as a matter of facts, any hopes at all ...

Nobody really cares, this region has no economical interest ...

Am I cynical this morning

malice
Old 9th March 2003
  #250
Here for the gear
 

What excatly is the price of justice?

From the NYTIMES:


U.S. CASH TEMPTING

But U.S. promises of economic aid to impoverished swing vote states may yet prove more tempting than political argument.


So Bush is trying to buy votes... And why not? He has done it before with great success. I know I am being naive, but what is the point of securing UN approval when everyone knows it was simply bought? With all his talk of family values, morals and prayer, it strikes me as bit hippocritical.

Kaiser
Old 9th March 2003
  #251
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Hmmm. That is exactly what happened when the US tossed the Taliban out of Afghanistan. Dancing, huggng, crying, thanking....

...Maybe I should invite one of them to post here, for a dose of reality in the midst of our pseudo intellectual and comfortably removed discussion. I think it might be an eye opener for some of us.


Regards,
Brian T
I would love to hear thier perspective. To quote Bill M. " being anti-war is not being pro-Saddam" My point is that culturally, the Iraqi people may not be a big a fan of the US as we think. I need to find the title, but a friend of mine reccomended a book to me the other day written by a former attorney general of the US about the US involvement in the gulf over he last 60 years. pretty unsettling stuff.
Old 9th March 2003
  #252
Lives for gear
 

You know, sometimes I read my own posts and realize I do tend to go for the dramatic at times. Not intentional, really. It seems to come naturally. I'm not aiming a anyone in specific, FWIW.

As far as my point about the Kurds. I guess I'm just trying to point out that there are indeed millions of people who are affected by both world action and inaction towards Iraq. Much has been said about those for whom action would mean hardship. And that is true. I just thought it fair to point out that there also many for whom inaction hasalready meant hardship for a long time, and will for the future as well.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th March 2003
  #253
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Plus6's Avatar
 

An Afghan view of American Soldiers

''Everybody has to give credit to one group of Americans that nobody talks about, who are working very hard in Afghanistan and I want to give them their due, ''This is the young American soldiers — boys and girls — and nobody knows this. But I do because I work very closely with them.

''The last 12 months they have rebuilt schools for almost one million Afghan children. They have rebuilt hospitals for almost three-quarters of a million Afghan sick people. They have dug wells for hundreds of thousands of people._ We only hear about soldiers fighting on the battlefield._ We never hear of the good they are doing._ And these kids, every time I walk there and go there, I raise my hat to them,'' Mr. Seraj said.

''In addition to that, the American people are a very giving people. In my years of being on a speaking tour when they ask me what do I think of Americans, I always say if I had to draw a picture, I would draw a picture of a heart.''__

Ali Seraj of the Afghanistan-American Foundation.
Old 9th March 2003
  #254
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5down1up's Avatar
 

thats funny brianT ,

a lot of times after posting and rereading i feel kinda the same .
its a tough one to express thougts with words only .

keep on going
Old 10th March 2003
  #255
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Re: What excatly is the price of justice?

Quote:
Originally posted by kaiser
I know I am being naive, but what is the point of securing UN approval when everyone knows it was simply bought? With all his talk of family values, morals and prayer, it strikes me as bit hippocritical.

Kaiser
I said this before. The UN is a complete joke. First they put Syria on the Security council, a nation that supports Terrorism. Then they put Lybia in charge of the Human Rights commision.... That's like putting ****s in charge of "Jewish appreciation day."
The UN is a farce.
Old 10th March 2003
  #256
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malice's Avatar
 

Re: Re: What excatly is the price of justice?

Quote:
Originally posted by OzNimbus

The UN is a farce.
Am I dreaming, Oz is quoting DeGaule now heh


on a serious side, did you pro war saw the NY Times today ?

And did you noticed that more and more members of British Parliament talk about puting Blair out ???

malice
Old 10th March 2003
  #257
The US HATES the UN, it doesn't like anyone telling it what to do.

Bush side stepped the environment issue recently, like, "nope, we like our cars & we like out factories that make money, we dont want to 'play fair'"

Kinda like, "I am a litter bug, so what?"

But now its suits him now to point to un adhered to resolutions.

The mechanism & possibility of ousting Tony Blair is a hot topic in the news here in the UK, his past performance domestically will be a serious contributing factor on whether this takes place or not. His own party might stab him in the back, he's not acting on the Labor party's behalf now, he has gone out on a limb on his own by siding with Bush. He could get impeached.
Old 10th March 2003
  #258
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
He could get impeached.
yes, but the fact that this event might occure will force US to act quickly.
Personel non essential in US ambassy have been ordered to leave countries from the middle east. This could lead us to conclude war is imminent now.

I wonder if Blair impeachement would permit his successor to whithdraw, and if it would change Bush mind about going there on his own ...

I doubt it will change what seems to be unavoidable

malice
Old 10th March 2003
  #259
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

do you guys read/hear/see any alternative media...I kinda' wonder since your analysis is so emotional and far from reality....time will show you you're failings I believe.
Old 10th March 2003
  #260
Gear Head
 

on the Kurds

Just a little bit:
Kurds demonstrated here in Atlanta as well. They were in favor of the war against Iraq, but just as strongly anti-Turkey as anti-Iraq. Barring a new autonomous Kurdistan, I wonder what satisfaction the Kurds will find in Iraq regardless of the govt. (I honestly don't know--considering the treatment of the Kurds in a relatively democratic state like Turkey, one wonders what a regime change is likely to accomplish.) From what little I know, it sounds like the best thing Iraq's Kurdish population has had going for it in quite some time is the no-fly zone over northern Iraq.

Which leads one to wonder: will the Kurds need protection after a regime change in Iraq? Will the US still give it to them when this protection no longer coincides with US military interests?

I don't know the answers here, but they might be questions to ponder.
Old 10th March 2003
  #261
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malice's Avatar
 

recorderman, don't be so condescending if you will ...

Time will show the mess US is making in the middle east ...
Old 10th March 2003
  #262
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
recorderman, don't be so condescending if you will ...

Time will show the mess US is making in the middle east ...
I'll condesend whenever I feel like it...you've been doing a real good job of it ....the mess has been prolonged by your government...you have been selling weapons to sadam who inturn supports terror in palestine/isreal. Where are the franch in trying to deal with this? I tell you where....nowhere. Forgot about VietNam (that's right)....that was your fiasco that we took over..we're always bailing your butts out of some fire...eat a snail
Old 10th March 2003
  #263
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malice's Avatar
 

hodad, I just saw a report from kurdistan (Iraqi side) that showed the most populated city having antidote and medications to treat about 80 citizens in case Saddam launch a gaz attack. They are scared of two things now :

1- Saddam, who is pissed by the Kurd opposition in 1992 (recorderman, you being so wise and informed, correct me if I'm wrong, or to emotional), will take the opportunity of this war to finish the job he started then.

2- The turks that would take control of the area with the US blessing, as they would eventualy accept US army in their territory.

they are screwed both side, and as I said previously, the turks have commited atrocities over these people ...

I strongly doubt US are planing to help them have their own independent country, as there is no money to make out of this land (am I emotional again )

malice
Old 10th March 2003
  #264
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
Forgot about VietNam (that's right)....that was your fiasco that we took over..we're always bailing your butts out of some fire...eat a snail
hahaha heh stop the press, US fiasco in vietman is France fault now ...

Come on tutt

And for your info, US sell more weapon than France, including to Saudi Arabia, you know, your precious allies, thoses who financed Al Quaida to make atrocities like 09/11.

eat a cheese-burger fuuck

malice

PS : about Noriega, was it france fault too ? about Somalia ? what other US fiasco is our fault, I'm curious ... Can't you accept the fact that power won't prevent you from making mistakes ?
Old 10th March 2003
  #265
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This thread has stayed admirably civil so far, with some very valid points being made all around. Disagreements, yes, but in a respectful way.

I would love to see it stay that way. Please?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 10th March 2003
  #266
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malice's Avatar
 

yep, you are right, sorry for the unkind words recorderman. My first statement about condesencance was sarcastic, not mean. I do respect your opinion.grggt

malice
Old 10th March 2003
  #267
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Plus6's Avatar
 

U.S. history 101 for the weak-minded souls

The U.S. will never turn over its sovereignty and the right to protect it’s self from attack, especially to the so-called UN that has a miserable track record at best. This is why we fought the revolutionary war and why Americans still die for others on foreign soil. We have never asked for anything back except a plot of land to burry our dead. It’s alarming to me how many people know nothing about world history and prefer to quote socialist propaganda rather than learn from the past. Lenin's prediction that liberals and other weak-minded souls in the West could be relied upon to be "useful idiots" has come to fruition and they don’t even know it.
tutt
Old 10th March 2003
  #268
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malice's Avatar
 

John,

I'm a socialist (social democrat), not a communist, but I know enough history to know the difference. I'm aware of US sacrifice, I'm the one who stood against OzNimbus for the picture of US soldier graves in Normandy.
But history does not prevent a country to change politics.
If US will stand for the Kurds to have, at last, a country, and some future for their children, I will make to you a 2 pages apologies in this very thread.

Peace to you

malice
Old 10th March 2003
  #269
Gear Head
 

Re: U.S. history 101 for the weak-minded souls

Quote:
Originally posted by Plus6
The U.S. will never turn over its sovereignty and the right to protect it’s self from attack, especially to the so-called UN that has a miserable track record at best. . . It’s alarming to me how many people know nothing about world history and prefer to quote socialist propaganda rather than learn from the past. Lenin's prediction that liberals and other weak-minded souls in the West could be relied upon to be "useful idiots" has come to fruition and they don’t even know it.
tutt
One of the things I detest about talk radio is the fallacy constantly propagated there that liberals are ignorant, duped, or both. I don't know John's politics beyond this post, but the "useful idiots" remark sounds like the crap I can hear every day on am radio. I'm not an idiot, John. I do read history books--maybe not the same ones you read, but perhaps we have something to learn from each other.

I also do not consider Jimmy Carter (who is opposed to the war in Iraq) to be an idiot, useful or otherwise.

Also, it galls me that pro-war folks can go on and on about US sovereignty and how gosh darn important it is when one of the chief problems with this war (in my opinion) is that it violates Iraq's sovereignty in a big way. How does one justify this hypocrisy?
Old 10th March 2003
  #270
And round we go again!

heh
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