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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 1st March 2003
  #181
Whahooo!!!!!!!!!

That's a PTHD rig for every man, woman & child!

What will they do about plug ins?

Old 1st March 2003
  #182
Gear Head
 
midihell's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Whahooo!!!!!!!!!

That's a PTHD rig for every man, woman & child!

What will they do about plug ins?

Thats what North Korea will be for... They'll have the money for plugins once the US pays them off....
Old 1st March 2003
  #183
Turko-korean pop will flood the world market!

WER'E DOOMED!

Old 2nd March 2003
  #184
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up
what can i say recorderman ???

i dont have the masterplan ...

all i know , its not a good thing to attack a country and kill thousands of civil people ... and thats what will happen .

the only thing you get back for sure is more hate .

we all know what will happen if we attack ...

but we dont know yet what will happen if we dont ...


this is our chance to change the world , we shouldnt waste it

P E A C E

Yes, but peace at any price?


Doing nothing will not help the Iraqi populace.
Old 2nd March 2003
  #185
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice


See, that is call "the law of the strongest", historicaly, the source of atrocities and I'm afraid, of events that are not the pride of humanity ...

malice
You are absolutely dead nuts right on the money here, Malice. A wise man once said "Violence has solved more disputes than any other means in history." It's not nice, it sure as hell isn't politically correct, but it is the truth.

Unfortunatley, we live in a world where might DOES make right... and the victors write the history books.

People the world over can claim moral outrage, but it isn't going to stop the US from going in to Iraq. It's not a matter of "if" but "when."
Hussein will NOT give up his power willingly. Nor will he give up his chemical & biological weapons. Wether or not the UN inspectors find anything (I'm betting they won't... it's real easy to spot a UN convoy heading your way and clean out the evidence) is irrelevant. Hussein has already used mustard gas on his own people, and that alone should warrant invasion in my opinion.
The freedoms we all take for granted on a daily basis will not be bestowed upon the Iraqi populace with Hussein in power. That means free speech, press, religion, music, or even insignificant internet political debating forums like this one. (That's NOT a slam to gearslutz, just an acknowledgement that what we're writing here means jack **** in the grand scope of things
While Lenin's "Useful Idiots" hold worldwide protests against the Americans, nobody is protesting Hussein. This amazes me. Where are the placards that read "Get Hussein out now!" and "Keep your promises Saddam!" They're nowhere to be found.
Yet, bitching about the Americans is perfectly alright. When the U.S. blasted the Taliban & Al Queda completely out of this plane of existence, there were protesters. People bitched about "civilian casualties" and "collateral damage" and they were right. Those things DID happen. However, how many of those morons ever saw a "Downtown Kabul Saturday Night Execution" video? Yes, that's what the Taliban did. Held public executions on Saturdays for such atrocities as not growing a beard or refusing to wear a burqua. I was unfortunate enough to witness one of these videos, and I can say I'm glad that the US killed the mother****ers. The world is now a better place because most of the Taliban are dead.
As I recall, the residents of Kabul celebrated the day the Taliban were run out of town. Yes, innocent civllians were killed, and that really, really sucks. But the Afghanis would not have gained freedom without that war.
So the US will go into Iraq, and there will be Iraqi civillians killed. It will not be pretty. But I see it as the only way the Iraqis will gain freedom.
Again, I'll quote "Violence has solved more disputes than any other means in history." It's a ****ty thing to say, but it is the truth.
Old 2nd March 2003
  #186
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

P E A C E at any price is the way to go ,

doing "something" simply depends on what you call wrong or right :

i bet bin laden is totally sure about that hes doing the right thing ,

it looks like bush is sure about what the right thing is ,


so push the trigger folks , let the games begin ,

but dont cry afterwards that the dog bited your ASS






heh heh heh
Old 2nd March 2003
  #187
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up
P E A C E at any price is the way to go ,






heh heh heh

WRONG. Dead wrong. The British and French thought this way when the Germans violated the treaty of Versailles. France sold out Czechoslovakia when the Germans occupied it. France had a military alliance with the Czechs, and did NOTHING to stop the Germans. After all, why go to war when you can have peace at any price?
Unfotunatley, the Germans didn't stop with the Czechs. Many countries fell to the Blitzkrieg, France included. England almost fell, but thanks to many brave pilots from England, Canada, Poland, the US, and even France, England managed to hang on. Neville Chamberlin fumbled the ball with his "peace at any price" policy, and it cost over TEN MILLION lives to free Europe.
You want "Peace at any price?" I say, "Enjoy your slavery."


BTW, go read a history book!
Old 2nd March 2003
  #188
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up


doing "something" simply depends on what you call wrong or right :



Ok smart guy, let's hear your idea on getting rid of Saddam. Enlighten me.
Old 2nd March 2003
  #189
Lives for gear
 
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dont get sarcastic OZ fuuck heh

i am wondering why you come up the whole time with stuff thats almost 60 years old ??? just in fact of it was a solution during the stoneage doesnt mean its still up to date !!!

thx for your advice about the histoy books , but you might have figured i am raised and living in a country which was " the evil empire " . even if half of my ass is made in italy .

ive learned the lessons pretty well !!! my grandpa and some of my neighbours were fighting in ww2 . so we have real advice and tons of books and films to show us , that we dont want those times back again .

next thing , i am not smart at all , i count mayself to the " stupid " folks .

thanking bomber pilots is close to be real stupid OZ .
those attacks didnt change anything during ww2 , it was simply a terroristic act on civilans , but you read the books .

so lets stop arguing right here , cause you werent there and i wasnt , too .

if your talking history , give me one example for a war were the US was involved that was a victory . just one , and then go to the mom and dads who lost their kids in f.ex vietnam and tell em ...
yall had some brave boys you can be proud of them ...



having arguments on that topic is one thing , but reality is not just a theory , its running round in the dessert , ****ting in your pants , your friends get killed ...

to be honest , i defenately DONT NEED THIS EXPERIENCE

the way it sounds OZ , dont take it to personal , you have to learn a lot , before you can complete your mission on this planet ,

FREE YOUR MIND
Old 2nd March 2003
  #190
Lives for gear
 

You know, Jules is a very nice guy. He sent me a kind private message to make sure there were no hard feelings from this thread. There aren't in any way, but what a nice guy to even care. I believe that likely explains why this forum has a superior tone.

But as I replied to Jules, I realized I was communicating more clearly to him about where I'm coming from on this. So if I may, let me get slightly personal (about me, not Jules) and post most of that reply. Maybe it will clarify to people who see my views as hawkish. Then again, feel free to not give a damn either way, as you wish. No hard feelings either way.

**********************

My dad was wounded in WWII serving in the Pacific as a Navy Corpsman, you know, the guys who ran around on the beach helping wounded people who were yelling "Medic!". 60 years later, at 79 years old, he still cannot talk of his experiences without tears. Things I can't believe.

My uncle was shot by a Japanese sniper and very nearly died. He was a sargeant in the army and lost 10 of his 12 men in one battle. My father-in-law's family lost 3 brothers during WWII and he was wounded. 3 uncles my wife never knew, having died well before her birth.

All of this was about defending what was called freedom. I guess I'm old fashioned enough to still believe some things are worth fighting and even dying for. It's what birthed our country and what kept yours free as you fought alone in the Battle of Britain. Thank God the Royal Air Force had men who believed in such sacrifice.

I have a good idea of the horrors of war, from firsthand conversations with these men. It's awful. But I also saw that every single one of them would do it over again for a just cause, because they knew the alternative, doing nothing, was worse.

So the debate over whether or not this is a just cause seems wholly legitimate and healthy to me. But I believe that diatribe against the use of force *ever* being the right thing to do is pacifist lunacy at it's worst. That course would ultimately cede power to whoever is willing to be the most ruthless. The world has already been there and done that to horrific effect, as 50 million graves in Europe and Asia can attest. And, God help us, that was before nuclear weapons existed. I can't imagine the same scenario in a nuclear world.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 2nd March 2003
  #191
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Great post Brian, sincerly !

We might not have the same ideas about this war coming, but I sure respect your feelings: I was before reading your last post, but surely it does make it easier for me to understand why you seemed to have lost your temper.
Rest assure that I value your opinion even when I don't agree with you.
I just wanted you to know that, as what I might have said was probably difficult to read for you ...
I hope you will stay in this thread if you are willing to.

Peace (at least between us)

sincerely

malice
Old 2nd March 2003
  #192
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

You guys aren't arguing for "freedom"...your arguing to not take action that is more painful in the short term for a few...in comparison to a larger amount of pain for many more over the long term. You only gat to argue this point because Britain and the U.S. in the past expended many lives and large amounts of money to fight/defend and build the world we now live in.
Not: The former USSR,Germany.Japan and even France (considering it's repsonsiblity at inaction that more tahn helped create ww2...ect.)

It's real easy and simplistic, to say the least to take the "moral high ground" and feel good about taking the stand agains war. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. But in Historical context...it's wrong at this moment.
Old 2nd March 2003
  #193
Gear Head
 
midihell's Avatar
 

I can really only think of one old saying from a tv commercial of days gone by.... "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later". If something isn't done now, the price will be higher when we no longer have a choice...

Just my .02 cents worth
Old 2nd March 2003
  #194
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up
dont get sarcastic OZ fuuck heh ]


It was a legitimate question. Let's hear your idea on how to get rid of Sadamn. I mean it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I respect your opinions. However, I've yet to hear a realistic solution to the problem from anyone opposed to invasion.

Quote:
i am wondering why you come up the whole time with stuff thats almost 60 years old ??? just in fact of it was a solution during the stoneage doesnt mean its still up to date !!!
Because we learned that "peace at any price" was suicide 60 years ago, and we shouldn't forget it. WW2 is not "the stone age." Learn from history. Don't dismiss it.

Quote:
thx for your advice about the histoy books , but you might have figured i am raised and living in a country which was " the evil empire " . even if half of my ass is made in italy .

ive learned the lessons pretty well !!! my grandpa and some of my neighbours were fighting in ww2 . so we have real advice and tons of books and films to show us , that we dont want those times back again .
I've never once considered Germany evil. The ****s were, and there is a distitinction to be made between them and the average German soldier. I've met a 109 pilot, and a former girlfriend of mine's Grandfather, who was an infantryman at the battle of Stalingrad (one place I'd never want to be.) I've always considered the German servicemen to be most honorable.
As for not wanting "those times back again" I can certainly understand. Nobody in his right mind wants a war. Not even me.
However, I understand that freedom does have a price attached.

[/QUOTE]next thing , i am not smart at all , i count mayself to the " stupid " folks .[/QUOTE]

I never called you stupid. I was merely quoting V.I. Lenin's assesment of such protesters as "useful idiots." Just food for thought, that's all.

Quote:
thanking bomber pilots is close to be real stupid OZ .
those attacks didnt change anything during ww2 , it was simply a terroristic act on civilans , but you read the books ..
Actually, I was referring to the Battle of Britain. Allied pilots were flying FIGHTERS, not bombers. But if you want to talk about the bomber offensive on Germany, let's get a few facts straight: Formal war was declared. All allied planes were clearly marked, as were the pilots and crews. How this is terrorism is beyond me. Terrorists don't wear uniforms or make formal war delclarations. You want terrorism, go check out Israel.
And BTW, I say a slient thanks every day that there were better men than me willing to put thier lives on the line to do the job. And I've done more than read the books. I've talked to the vets. Had dinner with members of a B17 crew. Talked to my uncle about it before he died. It was a ****ty job, but it had to be done. And yes, it DID change things. It got the Germans out of France, Holland, and Belgium. It rid the world of the ****s. So that's why I say thanks to the bomber crews.

Quote:
so lets stop arguing right here , cause you werent there and i wasnt , too .
No, I was not... but I've asked people who were there.

Quote:
if your talking history , give me one example for a war were the US was involved that was a victory . just one , and then go to the mom and dads who lost their kids in f.ex vietnam and tell em ...
yall had some brave boys you can be proud of them ...
The second world war comes to mind. Both the European and Pacific theaters. When the Germans and the Japanese surrendered. That's what is called "victory."
Vietnam was a clusterphuk. I've asked servicemen who were there about it, and the common theme in the replies was, "We learned how NOT to fight a war in Vietnam." You're absolutely right on the money about Vietnam. They shouldn't have been there.

Quote:
having arguments on that topic is one thing , but reality is not just a theory , its running round in the dessert , ****ting in your pants , your friends get killed ...

to be honest , i defenately DONT NEED THIS EXPERIENCE

FREE YOUR MIND
Hey, I don't want to go to war any more than the next guy. However, I believe freedom is worth fighting for.
Old 3rd March 2003
  #195
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Hi Malice,

Did you notice the news tonight in France...

Bernard Kouchner, the most popular political person in France (as per the weekly polls for years now), appeared on TV, defied the socialist party line, supported the US and UK, and said that France shouldn't use her veto.

His message in a nutshell was: "I'm not for war, but I'm even less for appeasing Saddam. The anthrax bombs brought out today in Iraq show that he has weapons of mass destruction that the inspectors didn't know about. It's time to remove him from power and put a democratically-elected government in."

What do you think of Bernard Kouchner now?
Old 3rd March 2003
  #196
Lives for gear
 

Thanks for the kind words, Malice (is that an oxymoron?).

To lighten up a bit, check this LINK out. To me, it's pretty hilarious.

The human shields are leaving Iraq because of "safety concerns"? Good Lord, the irony. It just hit me as very funny in a Monty Python sort of way.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 3rd March 2003
  #197
Lives for gear
 
Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by OzNimbus
I've never once considered Germany evil. The ****s were, and there is a distitinction to be made between them and the average German soldier.
I agree with the "learn from history" ethos. I think the similarities between Hitler's National Socialists of the 30's and Saddam's regime are mainly that they are/were both lead by a very small number of people who are/were in power and by no means reflect, or reflected, the majority of the country in question.

There are probably more comparisons like this to be made in the world today, like Bush's lust for capitalism and his blatent neglect of the Kyoto Treaty doesn't represent the feelings of the majority of Americans. Likewise, take a look at Chile, Zimbabwe, Israel, Pakistan, North Korea and I'm sure we could easily see echoes of the past and things that really shouldn't be happening in our time.

I think the main difference between Saddam and Hitler's regimes is that in our time it is easier to distinguish between the regime and the people under it, and, with this, we have a stronger sense of conciousness towards the protection of innocent lives that can be lost.

One thing that does concern me can be highlighted by a comparison between present day Iraq and pre-WWII Germany.

I believe that the Treaty of Versailles basically created Hitler. The Treaty was heavily influenced by France's Clemenceau's desire to 'make Germany pay' for it's 'crimes', so there was a situation of 'cause' being created for the many Germans who had lost loved ones and were now being subjected to further sanctions, humiliation and criminality.
Zoom to present day, prior to most 'assaults' nowadays there are rebuilding strategies already in place before a bomb has hit the floor (Kosovo, Afghanistan and it's currently happening with Iraq), but the 1st Gulf War didn't have this. Instead there were sanctions against Iraq, people starving, repressed economy, no medical supplies, etc..

What did this do for the Iraqi people who we are now being informed that the US want to 'liberate' for Saddam? Probably creating the same feeling as what the average German felt in the '30's.

Bearing in mind that Saddam's regime also controls the supply of public information, it's not hard to see how the US and it's allies has given the Iraqi people cause to hate the west. It's also not hard to see the similarites therefore between Iraq 1991-present day and pre-WWII Germany.

I think we all, no matter which side of the war fence we're on, recognise that the world would be a better place without Saddam and his regime, but I think the sticking point is what the cost of his removal should be....
Personally, I'd like to think that, in this day and age, there's a way that doesn't require thousands of innocent lives. I'd also like a way that didn't involve loss of life to Iraqi or western troops.

If we look at Germany again, I'm sure, when you think about it, that if the 50 key people of the ****'s had been taken out in '39, there would have been millions of lives saved and millions of nightmares avoided. I think the same rule would apply with Saddams regime.

Thinking back to Afghanistan when both bombs and food parcels were being dropped, I can't help but think of the notion of America creating edible bombs and having done with it!
Old 3rd March 2003
  #198
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Messiah, thanks for the well-written post...you made some interesting points.
Old 3rd March 2003
  #199
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

i still doubt , that the muslim world would appreciate freedom brought by the US and their allies by a war .
if during this action one muslim gets killed by US attacks , it would feed the hate and the strenght of the anti-american thought .
not attacking would show them that the involved countries are taking care for real to improve the situation .
and it would show them that we respect their oppinions and wishes as well .

the military presence of the us was the first step to it .

the attack MUST NOT follow .

P E A C E

Old 3rd March 2003
  #200
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up
the attack MUST NOT follow .

P E A C E
Does anyone here think that Bush will back down?
Old 3rd March 2003
  #201
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Messiah
Personally, I'd like to think that, in this day and age, there's a way that doesn't require thousands of innocent lives. I'd also like a way that didn't involve loss of life to Iraqi or western troops.

A most excellent post. In fact, I'd like for what you've just said to happen more than anything else.

The only problem is, I've heard a lot of "there has to be a better way" and nobody actually comes up with a viable alternative. Does ANYONE out there have a realistic solution to the Sadamm question other than invasion?

-0z-
Old 3rd March 2003
  #202
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Messiah, GREAT POST !!!!

Jon, About Kouchner : nice try but ...What does it prove :

1- that you could be sensible person, that can be appreciate by a lot of people, and still be wrong. That is fortunate, cause that prove that even if I don't agree with you, Jon, I can still appreciate you, and find you inteligent.

2- There is freedom of speech in France : that is fortunate too, cause if France was a dictature, G Bush might come with the idea to invade us what would be very uncool heh

3- That Bernard Kouchner is part of the 10 % pro war in France

But I didn't see the news yesterday, I'll come back with more clever things to say (or not) later.

Again Jon : Nice try

malice
Old 3rd March 2003
  #203
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Does anyone here think that Bush will back down?
Does anybody think that Saddam will back down?
Old 3rd March 2003
  #204
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
Does anybody think that Saddam will back down?
Does anybody think that if Saddam back down and destroy his weapons, it will prevent US to bomb Iraq ?
Old 3rd March 2003
  #205
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
Does anybody think that if Saddam back down and destroy his weapons, it will prevent US to bomb Iraq ?
Or...based entirely upon Saddam's track record...how would one ever know if he destroyed all of his weapons. And, how about this...if you came here (to the U.S.A.) and looke for our weapons...where do you think you'd be most likely to find them? In a factory, or a school? How about an Army/Navy/Airforce installation...right? How come there have been NO "inspections" at ant Iraqi milliatry installations.....?
Old 4th March 2003
  #206
In Europe, is the populus vibe:

Bin Laden & his cronies planned and commited the Sept 11th atrocities
Mabey he is dead?
It's a great pity that we dont know for sure..
These are very dangerous indaviduals that should be hunted down.

???

In the USA, is the populus vibe:

Bin Laden & his cronies planned and commited the Sept 11th atrocities
We didn't get him for certain in Afganistan.
We must have revenge, liberating Afganistan wasn't enough.
Saddm is a well known Arab baddie, lets get him instead.
We claim that as our rightfull vengance.

???
Old 4th March 2003
  #207
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
In Europe, is the populus vibe:

Bin Laden & his cronies planned and commited the Sept 11th atrocities
Mabey he is dead?
It's a great pity that we dont know for sure..
These are very dangerous indaviduals that should be hunted down.

???

In the USA, is the populus vibe:

Bin Laden & his cronies planned and commited the Sept 11th atrocities
We didn't get him for certain in Afganistan.
We must have revenge, liberating Afganistan wasn't enough.
Saddm is a well known Arab baddie, lets get him instead.
We claim that as our rightfull vengance.

???
That is wrong.
The U.S. intentions to take care of terrorist states was declared soon after 9/11 and prior to Afganistan.
This is a long term policy.
Prevention is the best medicine.
If you want peace..prepare for war.
The U.S. has been sustaining hits for awhile now....U.S.S. Cole, African embassies, ect...and then 9/11..and now that terrorism can hit us at home we have decided to nip it in the bud....

French and German citizens...you can critic...but you can't compete
Sell your french & german bonds boys...and by U.S....because when all is said and done...our side will prevail and then we'll have another (this time) world wide economic boom.

P.S....Brits..love Ya...but. before you caste stones our way about war...what about the Falklands? Wasn't that a silly little war that you had...what for some sheep ? We supported you anyway (after-all they were your sheep)
Old 4th March 2003
  #208
Gear Head
 

Kill for peace?

Recorderman said

Prevention is the best medicine.
******
This is to me the most problematic part of the whole deal. You start the war to prevent the war. Hmmm...
Seriously, how can you justify an unprovoked attack as self defense? It's a bit like me beating the crap out of my neighbor because he seems like the kind of guy who might piss on my lawn.

And the real problem, as I see it, is the precedent that will be set. Who becomes the arbiter of when a "preventative" war is okay? Who will be next?
Old 4th March 2003
  #209
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

good one hodad


" if you want peace prepare for a war "

if you dont like the opposite opinions kill the opposite ...

basically a very clever idea . but you just come up with that thoughts if you feel safe enough about killing the opposite first .

somehow it feels like that the us goverment believes that they are the world new crusaders . " god bless america " ... is saying lot about that . even the pope who is almost 200 years old still has some brain cells left which tell him that the BRAND NEW u.s ideas are smelling way tooooooooo old .

and you hit the us attitude right on the head , recorderman ,
lets get some cash , lets start a war .

maybe somebodys shooting you in the head some day , cause he wanted your 7 bucks ... hrhrhr

WHAT YOU GIVE IS WHAT YOU GET
Old 4th March 2003
  #210
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Hodad, I totaly agree with you, "preventative" war, as I said earlier; is not a doctrine. It is not because we should have done it with Hitler that it is something to be raise as a doctrine. If we let decide a country that is the most powerfull country in the world wether to attack preventively another country or not, without the aknowledgment of UN, we are steping in a very dark and dangerous era, IMHO...

For all the Peace brigade here, sorry to let you down on this thread, going to Barcelona for 3 days ...

Anyway, cheers to everyones, see you later, stay nice to each others as you did so far ...

malice
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