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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 26th February 2003
  #151
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Midlandmorgan's Avatar
 

One more thing, and then I'll shut up about this:

I honestly believe that no member of this forum is being attacked, ridiculed, or belittled... nor is any religious preference, ethnicity, hyphenated nationality, or whatever under any personal scrutiny... my opinions are based on the need for protection from fundamentist fanatics. We have (especially in the Southwestern US) enough radicals to resurface most of the roads in the world, with White Supreme-ists, Arian Brotherhoods, hanger-oners to the KKK, latino gangs, etc etc...

The entire point of the argument I believe is this - we are going to protect ourselves against external forces wanting to eradicate the Western lifestyle...we are offering to help others in doing so, but for reasons unclear to this author some of the others are preventing these attempts. Analogy-if my barn has rats coming from across the street, why would the guy across the street try to stop me from killing the rats where they breed? That perspective really doesn't withstand the test of elementary logic.

(If this is a closed to general discussion exchange, please forgive my intrusion...)
Old 26th February 2003
  #152
But the US claiming that the borders of thier 'barn' extend beyond the USA 360 degrees around the globe, pisses folks off, for good reason.

Are you talking of radical Islamic fundamentalist terrorists or Saddams regime?

One group attacked on sept 11th, the other didnt.

The two shouldnt be confused.
Old 26th February 2003
  #153
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

I hear you Jules.

I think the other problem is that being attacked by rats doesn't give you the right to kill all rodents to eradicate rats.

These particular rats live everywhere, most notably in peoples minds as an idea. Ideas spread. There is no such thing as planet terrorist. Terrorism will exist wherever there is a gruddge to bear, misplaced or not, and it doesn't have a home.

You can't contain ideas. All you can do is try and understand the root cause, and work on that. There is no them and us. But that's what they're trying to promote.

Anyway, if this stuff is ever resolved, it'll be your next door neighbour who invents the next excuse for killing people. And who knows where he got that idea from.


And the reason I spelt gruddge like that is 'cos if you don't you get grudge.
Old 26th February 2003
  #154
SawSlut
 
OzNimbus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
"[Just doesn't add up enough ON F**KING PAPER to kick off WW3 & a global Islamic jihad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

In case you weren't watching TV on Sept 11th 2001, global Islamic Jihad has already started. Make no mistake, these bastards want every single one of us "Free & Democratic Westerners" dead. Period."

These bastards - those bastards?

Saddam is not know to be complicit with the Sept 11 attack, lumping anyone Arabic / Muslim / to together - is a danger.. Its WAY too simplistic for a complex matter.

The US cant claim 'payback for Sept 11 by bashing Iraq. That would be really twisted.
[/B]
Actually, I belive you misunderstood me. I was adressing your "global Islamic Jihad" bit, NOT linking sept11th to Iraq. The "bastards" bieng Islamic Fundamentalist Gutter-Slime Terrorists. You're worried about "Global Islamic Jihad" Well, it's already started. Attacking Iraq isn't going to change anything in regards to Jihad. Pissing off terrorists that already want us dead to begin with is the least of our worries.

THAT was the point I was trying to get across.
Old 26th February 2003
  #155
Lives for gear
 

Ahh, I believe I see the problem. Semantics and context.

In my world, the term "fudged" means "active, premeditated cheating to acheive a goal". So in that case, if Bush "fudged" his election, he would be guilty of conspiracy. I find that a large stretch for a number of reasons.

OTOH, if for you, "fudged" means "screwed up process in general" that might explain a bit of misunderstanding. It was a bizzare election in many ways, but ultimately resolved peacefully, with President Bush having very high approval ratings at times, including many who voted for Gore.

In any event, if we can put other portions of the semantical confusion aside, here is the fundamental (no pun intended ) question I would like to ask.

Do you believe the 2000 US presidential election, in and of itself, gives legitimate right to dismiss Bush's policies?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 26th February 2003
  #156
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BevvyB
You can't contain ideas. All you can do is try and understand the root cause, and work on that.
I hear you there myself, big time ...

Quote:
There is no them and us. But that's what they're trying to promote.
Who they : Saddam??? Bush ???

I think manichaeist visions of the problem is the very root of the problem.
That is precisely what I, as well as some of the people I share ideas with, try to avoid by not supporting War.
What I see is a tyran, that is no more, no less than an average tyran in this world, and a man that is leading the most powerfull country in the world trying to make me swallow that he will take him out for the good of humanity and the good of the people he will eventualy bomb and indirectly starve to death.
I don't see, at any point of this discussion, or at any point of this great debate between thoses so called "united nations", the begining of the real question about islamic terorism : Why does this community, this udge part of humanity wants to hurt us ?
Why did they throw planes over innocent peoples? why do they bomb themselves in Israel market places and busses ?
Ignoring thoses questions won't solve the problem. Bombing Iraq won't solve the problem. Taking Saddam out won't solve the problem.

Reflection and political courage will ...

malice
Old 27th February 2003
  #157
Gear Head
 

elections & stuff

This'll be as good a place to start as any:
Brian T writes:
Do you believe the 2000 US presidential election, in and of itself, gives legitimate right to dismiss Bush's policies?

The election, in and of itself, stinks moderately. The stench broadens when one finds out that children of 2 Supreme Court justices (Scalia & Rehnquist) have undersecretary level(or thereabouts) positions in the Bush admin. When one considers that exit polls showed that Gore had won Florida--yes, they can be wrong, but...when one considers that the governor of the state in which the election was decided is the president's brother--let's just say there's enough stink around this whole thing that I wouldn't entirely dismiss the notion of hanky-panky or winkwink nudgenudge somewhere along the way.

Be that as it may, why would one need such an excuse to dismiss Bush's policies? I dismiss them because for the most part they suck.

1. They came into the White House intent on putting the nation's budget in the red. 9/11 gave convenient cover for this, but an unbalanced budget was their intent from the beginning.
2. There's been an intense effort to open up more of Alaska for drilling, but no effort to encourage conservation.
3. The 9/11 response involved a lot of bombs and guns, but not a murmur about conservation.
4. The PATRIOT act strips huge quantities of legal/civil rights from those suspected of "terrorism". Well, television ads tell us that folks who use drugs support terrorism, so how long before these laws are used to usurp the rights of alleged pot farmers/pot smokers? (You may think I'm stretching a point here, but mark my word: if the PATRiot act remains law, it will be abused.)
5. Gutting the Clean Air Act. (Umm, didn't republicans pass that ****er in the first place?) So we're going to get rid of New Source Review & start trading "pollution credits" and this is going to make for cleaner air how, exactly?
6. Dick Cheney's private meetings with energy execs to design the admin's energy policy; his unwillingness to release even a list of the attendees of these meetings; his unmitigated arrogance in these manners and general disregard for anything resembling openness in the governance of this nation.

I'm just getting warmed up here, but I'm sure I've gone on too long.

Frankly, the best thing this admin has done is its foreign policy--and I think they've done a mediocre to crap job of that, but compared to their handling of matters domestic, it looks ****ing brilliant.

So, in summation I say, election shmelection. These folks just outright suck.
Old 27th February 2003
  #158
I agree with the above....

Brian, if Bush drags us into a global disaster, the tale of it's beginnings will start not with tragedy of of sept 11th, but instead with a group of people clustered together holding up election 'punch cards' trying to decide whether chad was pushed in or not.

THAT is the potentialy grim irony I was warning of.

I found an economic explanation for a US war with Iraq on another audio forum.. I will copy it and post it up for folks to see.
Old 27th February 2003
  #159
These aren't my views or comments I have lifted this fron another forum..
I reproduce it here for your interest.

Here's a quote from this http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html rather involved article. Well worth the read, as it, to me, finally explains what the Bush administration is motivated by.
"The reality is that the strength of the U.S. dollar since 1945 rests on its being the international reserve currency. Thus it assumes the role of fiat currency for global oil transactions (ie. `petro-dollar'). The U.S. prints hundreds of billions of these fiat petro-dollars, which are then used by nation states to purchase oil/energy from OPEC producers (except Iraq, to some degree Venezuela, and perhaps Iran in the near future). These petro-dollars are then re-cycled from OPEC back into the U.S. via Treasury Bills or other dollar-denominated assets such as U.S. stocks, real estate, etc. In essence, global oil consumption provides a subsidy to the U.S. economy. Hence, the Europeans created the euro to compete with the dollar as an alternative international reserve currency. Obviously the E.U. would like oil priced in euros as well.
"The effect of an OPEC switch to the euro would be that oil-consuming nations would have to flush dollars out of their (central bank) reserve funds and replace these with euros. The dollar would crash anywhere from 20-40% in value and the consequences would be those one could expect from any currency collapse and massive inflation (think Argentina currency crisis, for example). You'd have foreign funds stream out of the U.S. stock markets and dollar denominated assets, there'd surely be a run on the banks much like the 1930s, the current account deficit would become unserviceable, the budget deficit would go into default, and so on. Your basic 3rd world economic crisis scenario.
"The United States economy is intimately tied to the dollar's role as reserve currency. This doesn't mean that the U.S. couldn't function otherwise, but that the transition would have to be gradual to avoid such dislocations (and the ultimate result of this would probably be the U.S. and the E.U. switching roles in the global economy)."
Although the above scenario is unlikely, and most assuredly undesirable, under certain economic conditions it is plausible. In fact, one of the conditions that could create such an environment is a near unilateral U.S. led war in the Middle East. For example, a large spike in oil prices could create huge problems for the imperiled Japanese banking system, the world's largest holder of U.S. dollar reserves. Many economists deem that the G-8 industrialized nations should meet and reform the global monetary system. Unfortunately the current Bush administration has chosen a military option instead of a multilateral conference on monetary reform.
In the aftermath of toppling Saddam it is clear the U.S. will keep a large and permanent military force in the Persian Gulf. Indeed, there is no `exit strategy' in Iraq, as the military will be needed to protect the newly installed regime, and to send a message to other OPEC producers that they might receive `regime change' if they convert their oil exports to the euro currency."
This information about Iraq's oil currency is being ignored/ repressed by the U.S. media and the Bush administration as the truth could potentially curtail both investor and consumer confidence, reduce consumer borrowing/spending, create political pressure to form a new energy policy that slowly weans us off Middle-Eastern oil, and of course stop our march towards a war with Iraq.
Here's a little history of how this works:
"Ever since 1971, when US president Richard Nixon took the dollar off the gold standard (at $35 per ounce) that had been agreed to at the Bretton Woods Conference at the end of World War II, the dollar has been a global monetary instrument that the United States, and only the United States, can produce by fiat. The dollar, now a fiat currency, is at a 16-year trade-weighted high despite record US current-account deficits and the status of the US as the leading debtor nation. The US national debt as of April 4 was $6.021 trillion against a gross domestic product (GDP) of $9 trillion.
"World trade is now a game in which the US produces dollars and the rest of the world produces things that dollars can buy. The world's interlinked economies no longer trade to capture a comparative advantage; they compete in exports to capture needed dollars to service dollar-denominated foreign debts and to accumulate dollar reserves to sustain the exchange value of their domestic currencies. To prevent speculative and manipulative attacks on their currencies, the world's central banks must acquire and hold dollar reserves in corresponding amounts to their currencies in circulation. The higher the market pressure to devalue a particular currency, the more dollar reserves its central bank must hold. This creates a built-in support for a strong dollar that in turn forces the world's central banks to acquire and hold more dollar reserves, making it stronger. This phenomenon is known as dollar hegemony, which is created by the geopolitically constructed peculiarity that critical commodities, most notably oil, are denominated in dollars. Everyone accepts dollars because dollars can buy oil. The recycling of petro-dollars is the price the US has extracted from oil-producing countries for US tolerance of the oil-exporting cartel since 1973.
"By definition, dollar reserves must be invested in US assets, creating a capital-accounts surplus for the US economy. Even after a year of sharp correction, US stock valuation is still at a 25-year high and trading at a 56 percent premium compared with emerging markets.
". . . The US capital-account surplus in turn finances the US trade deficit. Moreover, any asset, regardless of location, that is denominated in dollars is a US asset in essence. When oil is denominated in dollars through US state action and the dollar is a fiat currency, the US essentially owns the world's oil for free. And the more the US prints greenbacks, the higher the price of US assets will rise. Thus a strong-dollar policy gives the US a double win." [14]

This unique geo-political agreement with Saudi Arabia in 1973 has worked to our favor for the past 30 years, as this arrangement has raised the entire asset value of all dollar denominated assets/properties, and allowed the Federal Reserve to create a truly massive debt and credit expansion (or `credit bubble' in the view of some economists). These structural imbalances in the U.S. economy are sustainable as long as:
nations continue to demand and purchase oil for their energy/survival needs, and
the fiat reserve currency for global oil transactions remain the U.S. dollar (and dollar only).
So, it's subtle (isn't economics always twisted? I can barely understand...), BUT the message is clear. It ain't because Saddam is a nasty tyrant, or his WMD, if any. It's MONEY and our prestigious place in the world that we are in danger of losing. Simple. Calculating. Perhaps EVIL.
Old 27th February 2003
  #160
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malice's Avatar
 

Brilliant post Jules

... What do I feel like I wanna puke ?

malice
Old 28th February 2003
  #161
As I said the WHOLE post was a cut & paste, including the summary at the bottom. So writing credit is not due to me..

Old 28th February 2003
  #162
Lives for gear
 
Messiah's Avatar
 

I think a regime change in the US would be best for global security. Who can do it though?
American public?
Old 28th February 2003
  #163
A rogue state, with weapons of mass distruction!

grggt
Old 28th February 2003
  #164
Lives for gear
 
Messiah's Avatar
 

USA?
There's no rogueier...
Old 28th February 2003
  #165
Lives for gear
 

If the US were to truly be prone towards conquest, the whole world would be in most deep ****. There has not been a single country this militarily dominant since the Roman Empire. The rabbit needs little self control for the safety of others. OTOH, the grizzly bear requires great self control for the safety of others. I guess it's impossible to be so far above the norm in any area such as military capability and not get blasted for it by people concerned with your abilities. Human nature to want equity.

Come to think of it, maybe we should take over a continent or two. I mean, if we're going to be vilified anyway, I guess we should go ahead and get something out of it? Wouldn't really be too tough to pull off. Yeah, I know. That's arrogant. It's also true, as far as not being too tough were we so inclined. The fact that it's never happened seems to go unnoticed. To read these posts reqarding the evil intent of the US, you would think we had already taken over the world.

I think I'll bow out of this thread as controlling the temperament is becoming difficult for me. Probably just me getting testy.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 28th February 2003
  #166
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
If the US were to truly be prone towards conquest, the whole world would be in most deep ****. There has not been a single country this militarily dominant since the Roman Empire.
You know, the Roman Empire, they didn't see it coming ... The decline ...



Quote:
To read these posts reqarding the evil intent of the US, you would think we had already taken over the world.
Didn't you already, I think you did, if not military, economicaly and financialy. Even culturaly...

Quote:
I think I'll bow out of this thread as controlling the temperament is becoming difficult for me. Probably just me getting testy.
That is unfortunate, cause If we can't discuss our divergence, me, as part of a "busting balls cheese eater country", and you, as part of the "superpower gi-joes world dominant country" ...

What can we do next ?

malice
Old 28th February 2003
  #167
http://www.pmegio.com/baking/pie/

It's all American and good through and through!



Come back Brian, pies still warm!
Old 28th February 2003
  #168
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Who will be laughing when un-employment goes to 12% in germany...and france reaps the seeds it's now sowing.

The French have miscalculated the world consistently since St. Crispin's Day, 1415.
Old 28th February 2003
  #169
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Recordman, making friends ???

sure (damn, I tried so hard not to get my PSW tone here)

Anyway, try to face your own problems before talking unemployment in Europe. USA with Bush administration is breaking records in US economy recession and unemployment. Public dept per habitant could only be compared to Belgium this year and I don't see economical facts that could reverse this trend for the near future, even with the consequences of the war. What is worth than Belgium, and consequently France and Germany, is that this dept is not due to social expenses ( health dpt, schools etc ...) as it is in Europe, but mostly military expenses.
That leads me to conclude that US economy is very ill, and that your country is not leading mondial economy as it use to be, although it appear to be so for cultural and financial reasons.
So US of A react like if they were in the begining of this century : like an oligarchy of oil productors whose girls maried to sons of weapons manufacturers : they decide to go to war, for the sake of saving what's remaining of their leadership...
Excuse me to spit it out like that, but somehow, I feel right to be honest with you and cut the BS about this subject.
Nevertheless, I would point out that I don't want you to think I'm anti-american, on the contrary : I made great friends in US and over thoses forums. I just think your governement sucks donkey balls.
I would appreciate the same from you :
France is not only what J.Chirac is, it is an allied country that helped you as you helped us in the past.
Your medias point out that we would speak German now without your help in 40-45.
Michael Moore, one of your fine movie maker said, while he received a price at the Cesars (french oscars ceremony), that you would speek "British" without our help : can't you just see the great irony of all that...

Sincerely, best to you ...

malice
America and world peace lover

grggt
Old 1st March 2003
  #170
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
Recordman, making friends ???
Michael Moore, one of your fine movie maker said, while he received a price at the Cesars (french oscars ceremony), that you would speek "British" without our help : can't you just see the great irony of all that...

Sincerely, best to you ...

malice
America and world peace lover

grggt
Differrence is...without your "help" the revolutionary war in the us would still have been won eventually by us. Not so ww1 or 2, but that is conjecture.
We're taking sadam out...wether you or anyone in malibu likes it or not....
Old 1st March 2003
  #171
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

HI ALL heh

the wise men we should look up to ALWAYS preached freedom ...

those people who still believe a war could solve their problems need to realize that they might be some steps behind evolution .

my X-tra thanks are going to JULES & MALICE ...

" THE GEARSLUTZ FREEDOM FIGHTERS "




if some of you are still clueless about the situation ,

go and play your lennon records again , watch the ghandi movie ,
read the bible , lend your ear to jimy hendrix , bang your head to rage against the machine , listen what they have to say :

its all the same P E A C E
Old 1st March 2003
  #172
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Over the last century how many people were killed NOT by war, but by appeasement, and looking the other way; examples:

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Sadam, North Korea...ect. I think that if you add it up it's more than the actual casualties from the battlefield.
Old 1st March 2003
  #173
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
That leads me to conclude that US economy is very ill
Have you read the new growth and debt predictions for France? They make the US economy look great in comparison.

France keeps thinking it lives by different economic laws than the rest of the world. Until the labor and social laws change here, it's just going to get worse and worse.

I'm in the midst of my 3rd French tax audit in 5 years, and I can tell you, I'm tired of getting reamed after working my ass off while millions of people here do nothing and live off gov't handouts and salaried employees work 35hour work-weeks with 6 weeks of annual paid vacation....and many of these spoiled utopists are continually going on strike for better conditions (esp. here in Paris) then wonder why factories and companies keep closing (Renault, Lu, Air Lib, etc, etc) and jobs being moved out of the country.

France is paradise for those who don't like to work much...and a living hell for small business.

I wonder how a country that legislates 35-hour work-weeks, workers that can't be fired without huge severance payments, 6 weeks of paid vacation/year and huge employment costs/taxes...can credibly complain about its unemployment problems.

How anyone in France can think that the economy here, given its current policies, will out-perform the US over the long term is beyond me.

Malice, nothing personal, but I had to get that off my chest.

Jon
Old 1st March 2003
  #174
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

what can i say recorderman ???

i dont have the masterplan ...

all i know , its not a good thing to attack a country and kill thousands of civil people ... and thats what will happen .

the only thing you get back for sure is more hate .

we all know what will happen if we attack ...

but we dont know yet what will happen if we dont ...


this is our chance to change the world , we shouldnt waste it

P E A C E
Old 1st March 2003
  #175
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

come on , jon , this sounds to personal .

if you start like that you can complain about anything .
Old 1st March 2003
  #176
In wartime apparently a LOT of money gets used.

Deals are done with money between countries.

Diplomacy, money & armed forces.

We dont get to hear too much about money spesifics....

Anyone know any?

Didn't Turkey want $3 Billion from the U.S. to allow planes to fly out from there?

I wonder what Britain is up to with its wartime cash initiatives..

I find this interesting..
Old 1st March 2003
  #177
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Have you read the new growth and debt predictions for France? They make the US economy look great in comparison.
Sure I did, and it's no good. I never said it was, only pointing out to recorderman why I don't thing US economy goes that well too.

Quote:
France keeps thinking it lives by different economic laws than the rest of the world. Until the labor and social laws change here, it's just going to get worse and worse.
mmh, you live in France Jon, you know that things were going better under Jospin policy. There is nothing wrong about taking social problems in account in a given policy. Ultra liberalism is not the only economic law, it just looks like it is, as you, the US, have the power to impose it (and no, I'm not a communist heh)


Quote:

France is paradise for those who don't like to work much...and a living hell for small business.
I agree with that, but why are you living here? you said in a previous posts they were reasons to be proud to be french, and consequently to live in France. There is a price to pay, apparently. that is call social protection. It's not perfect, but it works too, as a system. and I'm sorry about your audit, this no personal, I kindda like you beside of some of your ideas.


Quote:
How anyone in France can think that the economy here, given its current policies, will out-perform the US over the long term is beyond me.
That is not what I said. I just said, and Jules post (the one he paste from another forum, about Brenton woods and the $) stated it as well that for some monetary and financial position of the US, the apparent power of your country is fragile: your public dept IS frightning, and only counter balanced by the fact that you are the only country that could emit it's money without inflation. If $ was not the reference in the world, you would stand a crisis that would be comparable to 1929.
The leadership in the economic field is slowly, but surely changing side. Not for France leadership, of course, I'm not dumb, but may be for Europe

Quote:
Malice, nothing personal, but I had to get that off my chest.
No sweat, we are just talking

malice
Old 1st March 2003
  #178
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
Over the last century how many people were killed NOT by war, but by appeasement, and looking the other way; examples:

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Sadam, North Korea...ect. I think that if you add it up it's more than the actual casualties from the battlefield.
There is nothing wrong about preventive war. That is something we should have done before, with Hitler for example.
The fact that you raised "preventive" war as a doctrine is very dangerous, and unethical, iMHO...

Quote:
We're taking sadam out...wether you or anyone in malibu likes it or not....
See, that is call "the law of the strongest", historicaly, the source of atrocities and I'm afraid, of events that are not the pride of humanity ...

malice
Old 1st March 2003
  #179
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up

my X-tra thanks are going to JULES & MALICE ...

" THE GEARSLUTZ FREEDOM FIGHTERS "

thanx to you to 5down1up

malice
Old 1st March 2003
  #180
Gear Head
 
midihell's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

Didn't Turkey want $3 Billion from the U.S. to allow planes to fly out from there?

Jules, if I remember correctly from something on the news. It was more like they requested a $30 billion dollar "aid package" or whatever they are wanting to call it. I call it a payoff..
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