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Old 18th February 2003
  #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
My point was . . . if everyone in Iraq is as unhappy with Saddam as people say. If everyone in Iraq knows he is insane as people say. If we are going in to 'save the people in Iraq' for human rights as some people say. My point was, are you telling me that his staff, his army, his people are so afraid of this man that they can't over throw him on their own?
I agree with you Knox

That is the problem with the embargo: How can you expect that the people of Iraq think about throwing down Saddam when they are dying from starvation and illness.
Neither Saddam nore his staff suffer from malnutrition, as you can imagine.
That was the main reason for France to opposed the embargo just after the golf war despite of what some GI Joes posters think here.

Now the situation is more complicate, as a starving people don't think as fast as they would have with their stomach filled.
So I won't bet on the acclamations of the US army in the street of bagdad too much. This people thinks Saddam is standing alone facing the mighty US of A that caused the death of their childdren with an embargo over medications and food. Many of them probably think he is a hero.

A little late for that option, helping Iraqis throwing down their leader...

malice
Old 18th February 2003
  #122
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Don't confuse the French with the facts

Malice,
This year alone more than $16 billion is available for food, medicine and it is a huge amount: three times for each Iraqi what the average Egyptian spends on food and medicine. Yet, Saddam has been cheating his people out of some of this relief by exporting food to Syria and trying to sell it to Jordan. The Kuwaiti coast guard has intercepted ships exporting grain and other
foodstuffs. A quantity of asthma drugs - including emergency inhalers - destined for Iraq under the UN "oil for food" program has gone on sale in pharmacies and shops in Lebanon. Meanwhile, UN figures show that during six months (March to September 2000) Iraq imported:
¥ More than 300 million cigarettes per month
¥ More than 28,000 bottles of whisky a month
¥ More than 230,000 cans (or 115,000 liters) of beer a month
¥ More than 120,000 cans (or 40,000 liters) of vodka a month
¥ Almost 19,000 bottles of wine a month
When will the sanctions' critics start admitting that the real scandal is that while Saddam uses them as part of his propaganda to claim his people are starving, he is spending hundreds of millions on luxury items and building palaces for his coterie.

Don't worry this will all be over soon. The mighty US of A will liberate Iraq just as we did France in WWII, thanks for the help.
Old 18th February 2003
  #123
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Re: Don't confuse the French with the facts

Quote:
Originally posted by Plus6
Malice,
This year alone more than $16 billion is available for food, medicine and it is a huge amount: three times for each Iraqi what the average Egyptian spends on food and medicine. Yet, Saddam has been cheating his people out of some of this relief by exporting food to Syria and trying to sell it to Jordan. The Kuwaiti coast guard has intercepted ships exporting grain and other
foodstuffs. A quantity of asthma drugs - including emergency inhalers - destined for Iraq under the UN "oil for food" program has gone on sale in pharmacies and shops in Lebanon. Meanwhile, UN figures show that during six months (March to September 2000) Iraq imported:
¥ More than 300 million cigarettes per month
¥ More than 28,000 bottles of whisky a month
¥ More than 230,000 cans (or 115,000 liters) of beer a month
¥ More than 120,000 cans (or 40,000 liters) of vodka a month
¥ Almost 19,000 bottles of wine a month
When will the sanctions' critics start admitting that the real scandal is that while Saddam uses them as part of his propaganda to claim his people are starving, he is spending hundreds of millions on luxury items and building palaces for his coterie.
Precisely, this "oil for food" deal results is that the exchanges done with Iraq transit via Iraqi leadership, and can be control by this scumbag Saddam (that I despise as much as you, rest assure). If normalise commercial exchanges should have took place, Saddam would not have control them that easily and turn it to his sole profit.
I'm not victim of Saddam propaganda, just expressing thoughts about how we consolidated his power over his people, and the unavoidable consequences that result of such behavior. Just wanted to state thru this that support from the population of Iraq is not a reality, unfortunatly.
I want to state clearly that France, as well as anti-war supporters are on your side as far as take Saddam out is our concern.
The only point of misunderstading reside in the means achieve that goal.

Quote:
Don't worry this will all be over soon. The mighty US of A will liberate Iraq just as we did France in WWII, thanks for the help.
As opposed to the New York times view on that matter, France is not oblivious of that matter. As you saved our asses (as well as russians in Stalingrad, without the help of whom you would not have achieved this victory): May I remind you that we helped you to to aquire your freedom and independency. If you wich to go on that historical field, I can't help but remind you this.

Allies are not vassals, as I stated earlier. We have valid point of views against war that shouldn't put our friendship in geopardy has nations.
Try to understand that, cause the press and US governement attitude toward us has cross the line of politeness and common sense, IMHO...

Best to you

malice
Old 18th February 2003
  #124
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Re: Re: Don't confuse the French with the facts

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
Try to understand that, cause the press and US governement attitude toward us has cross the line of politeness and common sense, IMHO...
Best to you
malice
Malice I like you . . you are a lot of fun . . . . . . but I HAVE to laugh at you regarding that last statement, as I have been to France a few times and have been to Montreal many times where many French people live.

Are you joking bringing up the word "Politeness?" lol!

I had NO IDEA that the French knew that word existed when it came to dealings with Americans!! The ****tiest New Yorkers are the most polite people on Earth compared to you guys! All my years of living in NYC was NOTHING to my trips to France in finding MAJOR assholes! LOLOL!
Old 18th February 2003
  #125
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Re: Re: Re: Don't confuse the French with the facts

Quote:
Originally posted by Knox

Are you joking bringing up the word "Politeness?" lol!

I had NO IDEA that the French knew that word existed when it came to dealings with Americans!! The ****tiest New Yorkers are the most polite people on Earth compared to you guys! All my years of living in NYC was NOTHING to my trips to France in finding MAJOR assholes! LOLOL!
Knox, I like you a lot too.

If you ever go to France, you're invited to my house.
That's the least I can do to make it up to you after the unforgivable attitude of some of our citizens (I'm sure you are sincere about that experience, I know how some frenchies are acting toward foreigners).
I think you have a major point there ...
I'll be glad to give you a better idea of our hospitality.

Best to you Knox

No ****

malice
Old 18th February 2003
  #126
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Nice to see everyone getting along.



In defense of the French, they are IMO overall at least as polite as Americans IF you speak French to them...instead of assuming they want to speak English with you and shouting English at them when you're in France. That's the catch.

OK, here's some stuff to add fuel to the fire. This is an example of what many in US political circles are thinking right now. The anger is apparent. Despite the harsh words here, where the UN and Chirac's comment to the East European leaders are concerned, I'd have to agree with Gary.

************************************************

From: Gary L. Bauer, Chairman

Date: Tuesday, February 18, 2003

Storm

We spent the last few days digging out of the historic snowstorm that blanketed Washington, D.C. and the rest of the Northeast over the weekend. Unfortunately, it will be a lot harder to dig out of the hole that is being created by U.N. bureaucrats and feckless "allies". Let's look at them with our "blinders" off.

The U.N.

It has become worthless. This collection of dictatorial and predominately Muslim regimes routinely condemns Israel, but refuses to enforce its own disarmament resolutions against Saddam Hussein. It has no purpose other than to restrain the United States from doing what it cannot find the courage to do. It's human rights committee has been taken over by human rights abusers. Its disarmament committee is soon to be chaired by Iraq. In Zimbabwe, hundreds of thousands of Africans are facing starvation at the hands of their own thuggish government, but the U.N. stands by silently.

The French foreign minister on Friday drew enthusiastic applause when he referred to the U.N. as "this temple" composed of "guardians of an ideal." He wasn't even close to reality - it is a cesspool of moral ambivalence.

The Axis of Weasels

France, Germany and Belgium have accomplished nothing other than give hope to Saddam Hussein. Insiders tell me Germany is cooperating with us in other areas in the war against terror, but France, if not our enemy yet, is surely becoming indistinguishable from one.

Here is the epitome of gall. On Monday, French Prime Minister Chirac lashed out at Eastern European nations, such as Poland, which are supporting the United States. He said they were "ill behaved" and had missed a great "opportunity to shut up." Somehow I doubt that these newly freed nations, no longer under the yoke of the Soviet Union, are suddenly going to allow Chirac to tell them what to do.

This is the bottom line: The "axis of weasels," particularly France, has tremendous financial investments in Hussein's Iraq and indeed for them it is all about the bottom line. A liberated Iraq will be an occasion of great embarrassment to these nations when the details of whom they have been in bed with comes out.

:eek:
Old 18th February 2003
  #127
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Malice / thanks, I know you are sincere and I may very well take you up on that one day.

Jon / I DO speak French . . . (somewhat)
Old 18th February 2003
  #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Nice to see everyone getting along.



In defense of the French, they are IMO overall at least as polite as Americans IF you speak French to them...instead of assuming they want to speak English with you and shouting English at them when you're in France. That's the catch.

thanx jon, nice from you to say this.
Say hello to kent, I had a very nice coffee with him last time I was in Paris. I don't see him often here, so if you would be kind enough to give him my best ...

best to you too

malice
Old 18th February 2003
  #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Nice to see everyone getting along.

A liberated Iraq will be an occasion of great embarrassment to these nations when the details of whom they have been in bed with comes out.

:eek:
Bingo. Keep in mind, France was the country building the nuclear reactor for Saddam Hussein when the Israelis bombed it, before it could be put online.

But for that Israeli "travesty" (really, was building the reactor for a tyrant or bombing it the travesty?), we would be dealing with a nuclear armed Iraq today, thanks to French financial interests. History doesn't tend to side with French wisdom regarding Saddam, it seems.

The French and German governments have done, or at least turned a blind eye towards a great number of under the table deals with Iraq during the supposed sanction period. I think this has far more to do with various government's positions than most people think. The Germans supplying the raw materials to Iraq that could be used to manufacture chemical weapons, during the sanction period, is merely one example. This was done under some sort of pharmaceutical pretext.

So if terrorists want more sophisticated weapons, what country will they get them in/from? Afghanistan? Not any longer. Where then? What country would be willing to give to the terrorists?

Check this Link

Maybe those impoverished Iraqis should demonstrate against Hussein (yeah, that's a good idea) and ask him to spend less on paying people to blow themselves up in Israeli pizza parlors and spend more on the poor people in Iraq.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 18th February 2003
  #130
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
Jon / I DO speak French . . . (somewhat)
Knox, nothing personal...I'm sure that most of us wouldn't be hugely polite if everyday, say, chinese tourists came up to us yapping away in Chinese and expecting us to understand just because a billion-plus people do speak it. Then, seeing we don't understand, launching into very bad English. I'd probably be pretty impolite after a few days of that. That's what Parisians go through (France is the most heavily-visited tourist destination in the world and where do the tourists usually start? Paris.)

madd
Old 18th February 2003
  #131
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by malice
thanx jon, nice from you to say this.
Say hello to kent, I had a very nice coffee with him last time I was in Paris. I don't see him often here, so if you would be kind enough to give him my best ...

best to you too

malice
Hey Malice, Kent is actually here right now (in the CR). The guy just rocks and hasn't been posting much lately because he is assisting the mix sessions here with engineer Hubert Salou of Salvatore Adamo's new album and also helped out just before during 8 days of tracking sessions (and 28 songs) for Jean-Louis Murat. The guy has been doing 18-hour days for the past couple of weeks. Tomorrow, we start the music mixes for a French film called "Qui Veut La Mort de Mister V.?" in 5.1 and stereo, and I'll be in the CR again...and Kent gets to catch some sleep.

I'll tell him you said hi!
Old 18th February 2003
  #132
Gear Head
 

Hyperbole aside...

Is there some reason I should not be suspicious of the motives of the Bush admin just because once upon a time in the '40's the US govt. supported a few reasonably okay & independent democracies? I cited enough examples--all more recent than yours, by the way--that I think I have more than enough reason for my suspicions.
As to the oil motive: already Halliburton (umm, who was it that used to work there? Some guy named Cheney?), Bechtel & others are already negotiating with leading exiled Iraqi politicos for contracts to rebuild Iraq's oil infrastructure post-war. Estimated value of the contracts is in the neighborhood of 2 billion dollars.
Do I have ample reason to suspect the US has little regard for the welfare of the people of Iraq? Why yes. I believe I've already stated a few. I could throw in some more if you'd like.
In sum, I just don't see what's wrong with doubting the motives of the Bush admin--if you're pro war you should consider these things as well, just as I and many others opposed to this war are more than happy to look at the other side as well.
It's all a big mess, & it pisses me off that a lot of our problems are our own making. And why should I think we'll get it right this time?
Old 18th February 2003
  #133
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Here is the epitome of gall. On Monday, French Prime Minister Chirac lashed out at Eastern European nations, such as Poland, which are supporting the United States. He said they were "ill behaved" and had missed a great "opportunity to shut up." Somehow I doubt that these newly freed nations, no longer under the yoke of the Soviet Union, are suddenly going to allow Chirac to tell them what to do.
I was pretty amazed when I read about that in the French newpapers today. Geeeeez....

It's posturing, though. Ultimately, Villepin and Chirac won't use their UN Security Council veto. Many of the smarter minds in France are currently advising Chirac to not forget, in the end, who is the ally and who is the enemy.
Old 18th February 2003
  #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Knox, nothing personal...I'm sure that most of us wouldn't be hugely polite if everyday, say, chinese tourists came up to us yapping away in Chinese and expecting us to understand just because a billion-plus people do speak it. Then, seeing we don't understand, launching into very bad English. I'd probably be pretty impolite after a few days of that. That's what Parisians go through (France is the most heavily-visited tourist destination in the world and where do the tourists usually start? Paris.)

madd
Yep . . that's why I said "somewhat" . . .
I made an ass out of myself one night trying to buy a Staple gun in Cannes
Old 22nd February 2003
  #135
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It's all done with Smoke & Mirrors folks!

You have to understand how organized this "Terror Alert" really is! For one, there is no America, that is just a buzz word for a place that does not exsist! There is no United States!

The political con-spear-ahh-seas are too numerable to mention.

The American Goverment rigged the 911 disaster to gain further controll of this country so it can finally be run as a "Police State" nation.

Anyone who still belives that Man actuwally went to the moon will also belive what the American Goverment has to say in the media!

The only thing that is certain, is that Wako Jacko is a freak....of this you can be sure! The rest that we see is pure illusion and propaganda of the worst kind since Hitler tried to take over the world.

However I still hold to the fact that:

"THE LIE IS REAL!" dfegad


My 2 cents.
Old 24th February 2003
  #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mad John
It's all done with Smoke & Mirrors folks!

.

The American Goverment rigged the 911 disaster to gain further controll of this country so it can finally be run as a "Police State" nation.

Anyone who still belives that Man actuwally went to the moon will also belive what the American Goverment has to say in the media!


Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth.....
Old 25th February 2003
  #137
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Another view...by Jeff Jacoby in Australia.

********************************************

Iraqis.

Across Europe and the United States, 2 million or more protesters took to the streets to denounce the Bush administration's plans to disarm Saddam Hussein. The enormous crowds of demonstrators, news reports stressed, comprised all sorts of people - ''college students, middle-aged couples, families with small children, older people who had marched for civil rights, and groups representing labor, the environment, and religious, business, and civic organizations,'' as The New York Times put it.

An endless parade of speakers addressed the throngs, praising their antiwar message and denouncing George W. Bush and his allies. Among the speakers at the immense London march were the city's mayor, Ken Livingstone; the playwright Harold Pinter; Jesse Jackson; Bianca Jagger; and even a former minister in Tony Blair's Cabinet. In New York, the crowds heard from Bishop Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King III, singers Pete Seeger and Richie Havens, and Hollywood celebrities Danny Glover and Susan Sarandon.

But where were the Iraqis? Where in this great chorus of antiwar passion were the voices of those for whom Iraq is not just a cause but a homeland? More than 4 million Iraqis have fled that homeland since Saddam came to power in 1979. Tens of thousands live in the United States, hundreds of thousands in Europe. Yet virtually none took part in the weekend's demonstrations. Don't they care about Iraq?

Of course they do. That is why they stayed away.

''I am so frustrated by the appalling views of most of the British people, media, and politicians,'' one Iraqi expatriate, a London neurologist named B. Khalaf, writes in The Guardian. ''I want to say to all these people who are against the possible war, that if you think ... you are serving the interests of Iraqi people or saving them, you are not. You are effectively saving Saddam. You are depriving the Iraqi people of probably their last real chance to get rid of him.''

Another Iraqi in exile, 19-year-old Rania Kashi, penned an open letter asking where the antiwar movement was during Saddam's war against Iran in the 1980s, which caused the death of 1 million Iraqis and Iranians. Or during his attack on the people of Halabja, when thousands of Iraqi Kurds were gassed to death.

''Saddam rules Iraq using fear; he regularly imprisons, executes, and tortures large numbers of people for no reason whatsoever,'' she wrote. ''Believe me, you will be hard-pressed to find a single family in Iraq which has not had a son/father/brother killed, imprisoned, tortured, and/or `disappeared' due to Saddam's regime. What then has been stopping you from taking to the streets to protest against such blatant crimes against humanity in the past?... I have attended the permanent rally against Saddam that has been held every Saturday in Trafalgar Square for the past five years. The Iraqi people have been protesting for years against the war - the war that Saddam has waged against them. Where have you been?''

If the suffering of Iraq's people meant anything to the protesters, such cries from the heart might have prompted twinges of shame, or at least some second thoughts. But there is little evidence that the antiwar campaign cares at all about those whom Saddam has hurt. Countless demonstrators carried signs reading ''Don't Attack Iraq,'' ''Not In My Name,'' and ''No Blood For Oil.'' Others toted posters defaming Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair - portraying them with swastikas or Hitler m ustaches, for example. For those who failed to grasp the point, a large sign in Rome spelled it out: ''Bush is the new Hitler.''

But nowhere to be seen were signs proclaiming ''Against war AND against Saddam'' or ''Saddam must disarm'' or ''Justice for Saddam's victims.'' There were no banners proclaiming Saddam the new Hitler. None of the speakers were Iraqi Kurds or Shiites or dissidents. None were survivors of Saddam's torture chambers or poison gas attacks.

It goes without saying that many of those in the crowds were well-meaning people who want only to prevent war. Undoubtedly they would bristle at being labeled pro-Saddam. But whatever might be in their hearts, they can be judged only by their actions - and by their actions last weekend they declared themselves pro-Saddam.

As they poured into the streets, as they clamored for peace at any price, as they denounced those who oppose the tyrant of Baghdad, as they counseled passivity in the face of his crimes, they strengthened one of the world's most vicious despots and complicated the task of those trying to bring him down. The demonstrations were a powerful boost for Saddam and a stinging betrayal of Iraq's afflicted. That is why they were broadcast live on Iraqi television. And why millions of free Iraqis stayed away.

Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is [email protected] <mailto: [email protected]> .

Please checkout my websites:
www.citysedge.tv
& www.coloradostage.com
Old 25th February 2003
  #138
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Another great post, Jon!

Myself, I've made friends with some former Iraqi citizens. Most notably a young man who was living in Baghdad during desert storm. His family fled the country and moved to Canada in search of a better life. His take on the whole thing: "Get rid of Sadaam. He's crazy." That's a direct quote.


Anyone here recall what Karl Lenin labelled such anti-war protesters? "Useful idiots."
Old 25th February 2003
  #139
Most of the front pages here in the UK reflect a

"Dont feed us bull****" view...

Many of the peace protesters, me included, are actually more anti a "just trust us" attitude from Bush and Tony Blair.. than they are against removing a clearly PITA dictatorship.

Their very decision to move towards war seems undemocratic.

No weapons found
No UN backing
Lack of unity from Nato countries
A pathetic 'presentation" to the UN by Colin Powel
Add to this Bush's fudged election victory in the first place..

Just doesn't add up enough ON F**KING PAPER to kick off WW3 & a global Islamic jihad.

Old 26th February 2003
  #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules


Add to this Bush's fudged election victory in the first place..

"Fudged?"

You realize a number of news organizations went in and recounted the votes in painstaking detail after the fact. Bush won. And I suppose that the US Supreme Court should not have any credibility when they reach a legal decision that's disagreed with by the understandably emotionally upset losers.

The alternative is that it's all a huge conspiracy involving many thousands of willing participants, successfully foisted upon an ignorant US population. And if that's what someone chooses to believe, logic is no longer pertinent and the argument can, and does, go on forever. Poor sad, stupid electorate, the unwitting victims of an evil Bush dynasty. I guess that would make him rather more brilliant than he seems to be given credit for among those same accusers, wouldn't it?

Frankly, I can't believe this particular rationale would even come up at this point in time. But I do think it serves to show that this subject, in fact this entire thread's subject, is far more driven by emotion than by dispassionate factual assesment. On both sides.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 26th February 2003
  #141
You cant dispute that the president came into power in a crappy / unsatisfactory way.

Well you can, but that would be a right wing viewpoint.

Looked real bad from outside the US looking in... No wonder he cant get worldwide support.

Either way, the TV & press media REALLY dont like Bush, or the idea to go to war. It will be interesting to see how what might be the 'least popular war ever", can be waged.

With the constant lack of proof from the weapons inspectors, the latest tactic is to claim that it is now a "morally justified" war..

Morality is a weird card to play by politicians...

More stuff that wont wash..

Just proof. that will do us all fine...
Old 26th February 2003
  #142
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The argument that Bush was not elected is beyond ludicrous...there is a constitution in this nation that should be at least read before used as grounds for the anti-war debate...

As a matter of fact, it appears that this, like EVERY OTHER campaign since the end of WWII, will be 95% US forces, equipment, funds, and casualties...It stands to reason that at some point, the Big Dog is very likely to bitch slap the pups, if you get the drift... the idea being either join us or get the **** out of the way...

Sad but true: if the United Nations had any reason for existence and had done what its charter declares by aggressively defending the rights of everyone, not just the terrorists, this thing would be over by now and we could all concentrate on music.
Old 26th February 2003
  #143
"The alternative is that it's all a huge conspiracy involving many thousands of willing participants, successfully foisted upon an ignorant US population. And if that's what someone chooses to believe, logic is no longer pertinent and the argument can, and does, go on forever. Poor sad, stupid electorate, the unwitting victims of an evil Bush dynasty. I guess that would make him rather more brilliant than he seems to be given credit for"

No, the alternative is that the whole event (election) was a mess that defied all logic and veered into insanity with hourly updates on the 'loose chad", faulty machines and votes locked in drawers, that ran for 3 weeks!!!!! Come on Brian, dont try to put "ignorant US population" as words in my mouth, you saw it yourself! That there was an outcry about the debarcle is a huge understement.

You confuse and mislead an anti war stance as general purpose America bashing. I think your fiction above was designed to rally an 'are you calling us stupid?' posse! tutt tutt tutt

As for an Evil Bush dynasty? Poor unfortunate WORLD more like! Bush senior was arming most of the bad guys in that region back during HIS presidency..

Guessing about Bush Jnr being rather brilliant?

Not I!

Old 26th February 2003
  #144
Here for the gear
 
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Trust me Jules,

The global Islamic jihad started years ago. Your music and way of life is not part of their plans...WAKE UP or Convert!
Old 26th February 2003
  #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Most of the front pages here in the UK reflect a

"Dont feed us bull****" view...



No weapons found
Does not mean they do not exist. Ask the (remaining) Kurds about that one.

Quote:
No UN backing [/B]
This is the organization that put Syria on the security council, and for an encore, elected Lybia to chair the human rights comitte. What are they going to do next? Appoint the Neo-****s to "Jewish appreciation day?" The UN has turned into a complete joke.

Quote:
[Lack of unity from Nato countries [/B]
Mostly lack of unity from France. Everyone blames the US for arming Saddam in the first place, but that is simply not true. Only a small percentage of Iraq's arms came from the States. Most came from France... Including Iraq's Mirage fighters. Let's not forget who bought most of Iraq's oil before desert storm... Yep, you guessed it. The French.

Quote:
[A pathetic 'presentation" to the UN by Colin Powel [/B]
I thought the evidence was pretty clear. Again, it's all open to personal interpretation, but I thought the pics of the bulldozed site were worth further investigation.

Quote:
[Add to this Bush's fudged election victory in the first place.. [/B]
I'm not American, but it seems thier electoral system makes more sense than what we've got here in Canada.

Quote:
[Just doesn't add up enough ON F**KING PAPER to kick off WW3 & a global Islamic jihad. [/B]
In case you weren't watching TV on Sept 11th 2001, global Islamic Jihad has already started. Make no mistake, these bastards want every single one of us "Free & Democratic Westerners" dead. Period.


Don't get me wrong Jules, I respect your opinions. But Jon brought up the best point of all. You didn't see any Iraqis participating in the last series of demonsrations for a reason.

Furthermore, I certainly don't agree with everything the US government does, not by a long shot. Perfect example: Saudi Arabia. Now there's a country with a blatant two-faced leadership that needs to be taken to task. They are supposedly an "ally" to the states, yet feed Terrorists cash. Most of the Sept 11th hijackers were Saudi Nationals. Yet the States haven't done anything of any significance about the Saudi question.

-0z-
Old 26th February 2003
  #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules


Just proof. that will do us all fine...

Will several thousand dead Kurds from a Mustard Gas attack do?
Old 26th February 2003
  #147
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Well, Jules (and BTW, I'm zero offended or angry since typing is so "vibe" limited), I guess I thought my logic was fairly sound.

If there was indeed any sort of subterfuge or conspiracy to put George W in the White House (i.e. "fudging"), how many people would you suppose were necessarily involved? At least the governor and a number of other state and local elected officials in Florida (a few of them Democrats as well), a couple of state and local judges in Florida, the supposedly independent election recount monitors, the majority of the U.S. Supreme Court, as well as whoever was involved in coordinating all of the above efforts. All the while doing so with no discovery of a provable nature. And then the news organizations who went in some months later and re-recounted as well.

OTOH, if there was no conspiracy and this was merely an incredibly close contest that somebody had to win when all was said and done, what blame is there to be laid on either candidate? Those of us who live in Tennessee, the home state of Gore, which he lost by a wide margin, have far less trouble believing Bush won Florida than apparently you do. Gore lost his own home state, which he represented for decades in the US government. Why? Because they knew him best? I don't know for sure, but maybe so. No love lost for Gore in his home state. Bush won his home state, Texas, handily, unless the "fudging'' is more widespread than we knew.

In any event, I think your phrase "fudged election victory " implies wrongdoing. I think that would largely require the scenario I outlined above. And I think to go there at this point, given all the intevening time for someone to dig up any dirt there might be requires a bit of a conspiratorial mindset.

So since nobody in the US has been able to ascertain for a fact that Bush "fudged election victory", but you believe that he did and that he "Looked real bad from outside the US looking in... No wonder he cant get worldwide support", that leaves me to suppose that, if that were to be true, the US populace just doesn't have the snap that other observers do. Where am I going wrong with that chain of logic?

Another question. If Gore had prevailed instead, would he have more moral authority than Bush, given the identical circumstances? You could say that he would, but that would be a left wing viewpoint, wouldn't it? So is the final result of your thinking that no US president in this four year term can have legitimacy? And that compounds an argument against the US position? That seems to be the case you ultimately make by your original statement, IMO.


Regards,
Brian T


P.S. However, since I am a proven Dork, perhaps all of my musings should be taken with a grain of salt
Old 26th February 2003
  #148
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

theres a little truth behind any joke
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Old 26th February 2003
  #149
"[Just doesn't add up enough ON F**KING PAPER to kick off WW3 & a global Islamic jihad. [/B]
------------------------------------------------------------------------

In case you weren't watching TV on Sept 11th 2001, global Islamic Jihad has already started. Make no mistake, these bastards want every single one of us "Free & Democratic Westerners" dead. Period."

These bastards - those bastards?

Saddam is not know to be complicit with the Sept 11 attack, lumping anyone Arabic / Muslim / to together - is a danger.. Its WAY too simplistic for a complex matter.

The US cant claim 'payback for Sept 11 by bashing Iraq. That would be really twisted.

BT quotes me then writes:

"No wonder he cant get worldwide support", that leaves me to suppose that, if that were to be true, the US populace just doesn't have the snap that other observers do. Where am I going wrong with that chain of logic?"

Well one more time, you are shamelessly attempting to put anti American words in my mouth, the last words YOU chose were, "ignorant US population" now YOU write " that leaves me to suppose that, if that were to be true, the US populace just doesn't have the snap that other observers do"

ONE MORE TIME. The procedure electing the present US leader was fraught with problems widely reported by press & TV, that rocked confidence worldwide that the right man was ever installed. IT-WAS-A-BAD-MESS.

I won't stoop to put words in YOUR mouth, I will make these statements, I believe your views to be conservative, hawkish and incorrect. And further, believe you think my views to be liberal, pacifist and incorrect.

However, you remain, an excelent person to debate with.

Another round?

And can we have some more peanuts please bartender?

heh
Old 26th February 2003
  #150
Here's a photo of my Granny, she has worked more than double in retirement than her 15 years in service at the UN. She recently oganised her local town UNA in Connecticut to send an anti war petition to Washington. She got to meet Koffi Annan, head of the UN as a treat for her long service..
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