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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 15th May 2003
  #841
Lives for gear
 
Renie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

Christian Aid website



Regarding womens rights

". It is true there are many more girls going to schools now. But it is unclear if this represents a very significant improvement over the work of the clandestine schools that operated under the Taliban regime. Recently, the Lord Chief Justice extended warlord Ismail Khan's ban on the co-education of males and females to the whole country. This means that girls cannot be taught by men even though there are not enough qualified female teachers, particularly at high school and university level. More resources are needed to cover girls education. It also means that there are almost Taliban-like restrictions, which in reality dramatically reduce access to education for girls. The international commmunity must protest, otherwise mullahs will see it as a REAL signal that the fundamentalists can do what they like regarding women."

http://www.whrnet.org/docs/interview-brunet-0302.html

tutt

It strikes me that going to school in a open way is fundamentally different to
'clandestine' school going. The psychological differences are enormous for the children.

Also this is Christain Aid, what do they expect?, the culture is deeply embedded in a mindset that is very different to the West around sexual politics. It is going to take a long time to change the whole culture.

If the West does that people complain it's colonialism and if they don't they are uncaring brutes.

These situations are so difficult and complex,i t's going to take a long time to sort out.
Old 15th May 2003
  #842
Lives for gear
 
jazzius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
**** you and cananda,france , germany, russia, et al....the economy in my neck of the woods is comin back nice...hope you all starve..
recordman, if we all starve, you starve too...........without exports the US is sunk

Do you have any good bookshops near you?...if so, go and buy a thing called an atlas....this is a book with pictures in it of the whole world........study it.........you'll see that the US is actually quite small in the grand scheme of things......if you make an enemy of the whole world, you'll have a serious problem.fuuck
Old 15th May 2003
  #843
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Let's all get over the recorderman incident shall we - he's taking up to much space.

Anyway. the christian aid website is very interesting. Good one jules.

http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/inde...ingpoverty.htm
Old 15th May 2003
  #844
Renie the quote you took was from a womans rights website, not Christian Aid... Just thouht I woulds point that out..
Old 15th May 2003
  #845
Lives for gear
 
Renie's Avatar
 

Jules

Thanks for pointing that out.

It's their worthy but difficult aim to achieve a better deal for women in Afghanistan. The quote still seems culturally naive to me, and I don't know that that helps the cause. It's easy to say on the outside from the comfort of the web.

I do think that difference between cultures is the key issue in all these problems up for discussion here.

And the dilemma of when to stand back and respect difference and when to fight the threats that difference throws up is the very difficult point facing the world.

The Internet and technology has opened up the box and there's no closing it now. There's nowhere to hide from the reality of how different people are.

A difficult but interesting stage.
Old 15th May 2003
  #846
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Quote:
Originally posted by Renie


I do think that difference between cultures is the key issue in all these problems up for discussion here.

And the dilemma of when to stand back and respect difference and when to fight the threats that difference throws up is the very difficult point facing the world.

For me its doesn´t appear all that difficult.
I think any culture is ok up to the point where it means suppressing femals by wrapping them up from feet to head, forbidding them anything that men are allowed to do, cutting off parts of their genitals to stay frigid and faithful, or again cutting off their toes to make them trippling and develop muscles that seem to promise better sex to awkward men and similar idioty.
The same goes for mistreatment of children an animals.

If it is about mistreatment such parts of a culture seem not worth to me any respect. Absolutely not. The same goes for the silly question whether some populations finally couldn´t use democracy. Would tradition of injustice justify its conservation? I think clearly not.
( Certainly, what is not so easy about democracy is the fact that it doesn´t make real sense as long as the population is not informed. This is why it can´t really happen anywhere as long as good education and straight infromation are not provided. But it needs approach.)

To hesitate on being against any brutality because of the question whether it be culture and thus maybe should be respected to me seems pseudo liberalism.

We need pragmatism worldwide rather sooner than later. Approach to objetivity and developed association would still include different sort of sausages, languages and traditions under better circumstances while being the only hope for a twisting globe in a couple of decades.

Just my two cents about culture and tolerance of it.

Ruphus
Old 16th May 2003
  #847
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
ill keep charging people excessive rates for their ignorance. fuuck "freedom" fries fuuck "freedom" toast
...that's becuase the only people that would pay you to do what ever you call it are hillbilly's.....drop a dose alpha and blaze off into the dwindling realm of your imagination (you know...that place where you tell your-self what a great "engineer" you are.....)dfegad
Old 17th May 2003
  #848
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
If stupidity would make noise I guess this was 140 dB.
Applause! heh
My icon comment was directed toward the hippie culture, or the hippie trend. (notice I didn't have the monkey take a wizz on the peace symbol) Trends, such as Punks, backpackers, SxE'rs, valley girls, surfers, goths, Rude Boys, new wavers, mods, metalheads, preps, grunge rockers, ravers, etc., come and go. Some people take these trends so serious, they never get out of them. One needs to look no further than the last "Woodstock" to see how pathetic this trend has gotten. The new-age incoherent babble about love and peace and godless pagan prayer, granola bars, hemp jewelry, and sustainable trees and chakras, divinity and luscious goddesses and soul paths and upping your personal vibration to counter all the venomous hatred slinging about the culture like some sort of conservative, fearmongering weapon of mass depression (all inside a hackey sack circle) talk gets on my nerves and is counterproductive to any type of ultimate 'movement' that is supposedly going on. I've always found it humorous how someone who is always ready, willing, and able to bash the superstitious and illogical nature of Christianity, Islam, or Judism is also always ready, willing, and able to embrace prancing through the forest naked, worshipping trees or squirrels or crystals or some other such ridiculous nonsense. Hypocrites. I digress... Even so called 'true hippies' of the 60's era pretty much traded in their long hair, VW Bus, and bellbottoms for hair club for men, an SUV land barge that fits hundreds of soccer balls in the back, and ambercombe & finch.
What I personally hate most is the idea that some condescending person like yourself Ruphus can spout the most contrived, cliched, touchy-queery pop-psycho crap this side of Deepak Chopra and expect any of his/her previous comments to be taken as serious political discourse. I've tried to stay out of this thread for the most part because it's the same watercooler talk over and over again and again. It's like the regular world's current version of "analog vs. digital". Actually, this is the 1st time I checked it since my last post. If a light hearted comment about a monkey urinating on a hippie (which should help the hippie's overall smell anyway) upsets you that much, then I'm sorry if I 'harshed your mellow'.

It's gonna take a lot more than a tie-dyed peasant top, some blue tinted circular glasses, and a pair of Birkenstocks to truly 'give peace a chance'.

"peace",
E-cue
Old 17th May 2003
  #849
Lives for gear
 

E-cue,

Your post is so excellent, it makes me want to kiss you.....and I'm straight.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 17th May 2003
  #850
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
E-cue,

Your post is so excellent, it makes me want to kiss you.....and I'm straight.


Regards,
Brian T
Uhm, thanks, I think.
Old 17th May 2003
  #851
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
...that's becuase the only people that would pay you to do what ever you call it are hillbilly's.....drop a dose alpha and blaze off into the dwindling realm of your imagination (you know...that place where you tell your-self what a great "engineer" you are.....)dfegad
you are a ****ing moron. people who pay me to do what i do are worth more than you will make in your lifetime. get over yourself and your limited talent ass and grow the **** up. you are so pathetic in your own egocentric attitude its disgusting. you arent worth the oxygen you breathe or the water your body is using. why dont your just piss it all out and die so the world will be a better place than to have ignorant ****s like you taking up space.
Old 17th May 2003
  #852
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cajonezzz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
I've always found it humorous how someone who is always ready, willing, and able to bash the superstitious and illogical nature of Christianity, Islam, or Judism is also always ready, willing, and able to embrace prancing through the forest naked, worshipping trees or squirrels or crystals or some other such ridiculous nonsense. Hypocrites.
E-cue
You hit this one on the head for me. really , really great post.
Old 17th May 2003
  #853
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

E-Cue,

I´m sorry but what you imagine where my conclusions would come from has unfortunately failed completely. ( Funny to hear you talking about clichés.)
Brain washed like you and Brian can´t understand what is going on even when they read it in the news, probably even if they tried hard to.
And withthout the historical power that you estimate as just running naked through the woods especially you and Brian would have electronic collars around your necks and be directed around with no reward at all.

I know you can´t picture it, but that´s not my fault.

Go on believing if it helps your explanations of the world.
Believing is easy.
Some God or whatever kind of Ghost you prefer shall show you your way to cognition.

Maybe next life, hm?

Ruphus

PS: I know that you will have a hard time to understand what pragmatism is, but let me try to give an example over the Birkenstock shoes you mentioned. Pragmatic spirits wouldn´t wear shoes for sake of an image, but instead for what the shoes are good for. As Birkenstock sandales in fact are the most unhealthy construction thinkable I have never worn any.
Old 17th May 2003
  #854
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Ruphus,
Is English your first language? (no offense if it's not, just trying to clarify). I think I understand most of your message, but let me break it down so there isn't anyMORE communication static.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
E-Cue,

I´m sorry but what you imagine where my conclusions would come from has unfortunately failed completely. ( Funny to hear you talking about cliché.)
I was addressing the issue of the hippie trends. Something you didn't really touch in your reply, and the source of my original post. You either missed the point completely (which it looks like other people 'got'), or just never addressed it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
Brain washed like you and Brian can´t understand what is going on even when they read it in the news, probably even if they tried hard to.
And withthout the historical power that you estimate as just running naked through the woods especially you and Brian would have electronic collars around your necks and be directed around with no reward at all.
Here's that trite, condescending attitude I mentioned early, which is detectable even through a broken tongue. How do you get off calling me brainwashed (and stupid earlier) for critiquing a trendy culture than comes and goes like so many others? You have no idea how I feel about any of this war **** other than your assumptions, because I haven't said anything about my views on the topic. Your ignorance, or lack of knowledge, about me is staggering and at this point embarrassing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
I know you can´t picture it, but that´s not my fault.
I'm a very creative person with a vivid imagination. And why the hell would anyone blame one person's lack of imagination on another person? Don't act like you know the slightest thing about me or my inventiveness because I had a monkey piss on a hippie in some online forum and you felt compelled to accuse me of stupidity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
Go on believing if it helps your explanations of the world.
Believing is easy.
Believing is a process you can't always will yourself into. For example, I could never force myself into believing in the Easter Bunny.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
Some God or whatever kind of Ghost you prefer shall show you your way to cognition.

Maybe next life, hm?


Ruphus
What the hell are you talking about? Did I claim to be a theist or non-theist or anything else for that matter anywhere in my post? You are still missing the point. I was addressing the issue of how the hippie movement tends to take over people's thought process for them. Let me try to explain it for you: Have you ever seen the rave movement turn people into christians, or the new wavers convert people into muslims? Of course not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
PS: I know that you will have a hard time to understand what pragmatism is, but let me try to give an example over the Birkenstock shoes you mentioned. Pragmatic spirits wouldn´t wear shoes for sake of an image, but instead for what the shoes are good for. As Birkenstock sandales in fact are the most unhealthy construction thinkable I have never worn any in my life.
Pragmatism is a practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems. So, you are wrong there too. I do understand pragmatism. I don't however understand how a spirit (or is this that next life thing you were talking about) wears sandals.
Old 17th May 2003
  #855
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i dunno ruphus. E is about one of the most diverse minded people i have read on any forum. although i am unaware of the posts that brought you two to this, im too lazy to go back and look for it.

frankly, i am sick and tired of this nationalism that is just as worse as any fad E is ranting about in his post. i dispise clique's and go out of my way to avoid them at all costs. that includes nationalism, racism, fashionism, theism, or any other ism bent on segregating, dividing, and otherwise inhibiting unification of HUMANity.
Old 17th May 2003
  #856
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Hey all,

Let's all please stop the ad hominum attacks.

Thanks and carry on.
Old 17th May 2003
  #857
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

An attempt to lighten the tone:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3918/freed_pow.html
Old 17th May 2003
  #858
Gear Addict
 

There are basically two kinds of people in this world, those who believe that there is not enough to go around and those who realise that this is not true. The former, over the course of human history, have developed ideologies and economic systems that limit and contain human endevours and the latter struggle against these ideologies and economic systems. The former are (and have been for most of our recorded history) in ascendency, basically because their paranoia results in a me first outlook that consquentaly allows them to justify enslaving, exploiting or eliminating any others that they believe are competing for the scarce resources of the world. Their economic systems, ironically based on waste and inefficiency, are pretty much guaranteeing that their vision of reality will come to fruition.
Any alternate vision is an extreme threat to these types and they will always attack and denegrade it.
So when they are faced with realities like Republican politicans who use war and military build ups to justify robbing the public treasurey and redistributing income from the poor to the rich, they will always stand up and clutch their heart and shout my country right or wrong, because they only see one possiblity and that is winning, securing more of the worlds scarce resources for themselves. To do any less would, in their view, make them a loser. They simply can't help it, it's a deeply ingrained mental illness, that has been reinforced with centuries of socialisation and violence.
Those of us whom choose a different path and outlook will always suffer the taunts and abuse of the followers of the me first ideology, you can develop a thick skin or you can kick ass, I've tried both solutions and the thick skin is probably the better path, but there is a tremendous satisfaction in the occasional capitalist ass kicking that I feel the neccessity to keep under control, after all that's their tool not ours. And so we continue to argue ideas and ideology and so we should, but be forwarned that any capitalist me firster who thinks he can actually get away with pissing on this hippie communist freak better be ready for an ass kicking, because to much tolerance is not a good thing. So peace and love man, when you want to get back to ideas instead of insults, that's the path that will lead to whatever enlightment turns your crank. Take care Logan
Old 17th May 2003
  #859
Lives for gear
 

Truly, there are priceless moments of classic ******ation to be found when sifting through these posts.


BT
Old 18th May 2003
  #860
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Victory in Iraq Shows Signs of Unraveling

Is President Bush's victory in Iraq coming undone like a cheap cowboy boot? Let's look at some of the unraveling stitches.

First, there's the situation on the ground in Iraq. After a series of attacks on GIs, the American "peacekeepers" adopted the same modus operandi they used in Bosnia: Forces have been under orders to travel as little as possible. It's especially critical to avoid casualties now, as body bags might upstage the administration's declare-victory-and-let's-cut-taxes blitz. Of course, the problem is that not much policing ? let alone nation-building ? gets done.

Meanwhile, as the U.S. shuffles the bureaucratic players into their various boxes at the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance, the Shiites are mobilizing. The multiple factions of Shiite Islam don't agree on much, except that the United States should leave. In the past, colonialists kept the Shiites under control through a divide-and-conquer strategy. But for the U.S. to be so Machiavellian, it will need Americans who speak Arabic, and those are in short supply in Baghdad.

Yet in the Muslim world, to ignore a problem is not to make it go away. The Times reported Tuesday that Afghan President Hamid Karzai, in despair over his inability to control provincial warlords, is considering asking Washington to crush his rivals. "We need to take serious steps or this government is doomed to fail," said one Karzai aide. During a year and a half of U.S. occupation of Afghanistan, Americans have never stopped operations against the Taliban, but it would be a huge escalation if Americans started fighting Afghans on behalf of "our" Afghans.

Second, there's the mysterious matter of the weapons of mass destruction. A headline in USA Today said it all: "U.S. begins to downplay hunt for banned weapons." The article notes the "before" and "after" quotes of top Bush people. Before the war: chapter-and-verse specifics about the location of Saddam Hussein's WMDs. After: vague calls for patience.

Third, there's the rest of the terror-ridden region. Another Times headline Tuesday read, "Arabs Feel Let Down by Powell: Disappointment rises over U.S. failure to get Israel to accept key elements of 'road map.' " Washington may largely be ignoring this because Mideast Arabs don't vote in the U.S., but other democracies are paying attention as the Israelis and Palestinians pick each other off by ones and twos; in Britain, Clare Short, a prominent Cabinet minister, resigned, denouncing Tony Blair's foreign policy. And when we get around to letting the Iraqis vote, they might hold our failure to help the Palestinians against us ? and our troops.

The recent terror bombing in Saudi Arabia will only accelerate the decline of American influence there. The U.S. had already announced a withdrawal of troops from the kingdom; now, a similar exodus of American civilians is likely. So what will happen when Saudi Arabia, home to a quarter of the world's oil, as well as the spiritual capitals of Islam, is let adrift in the shifting sands of Islamopolitics? Also, how 'bout that truck bombing in Chechnya, not so far north of Iraq? The Russians have been trying to subdue the Muslim Chechens for more than two centuries, and they still don't have the hang of it.

Fourth, on the home front, the web spun by the Bush administration is being unwoven. Sen. Bob Graham (D-Fla.), former chairman of the Intelligence Committee, accuses the White House of a "cover-up" over 9/11.

To be sure, Graham is running for president, but wannabe Woodwards and Bernsteins are on the Pulitzer trail. And though it's impossible for anyone not living in France to imagine that the Bush administration knew about 9/11 in advance, it's not hard to imagine that a Bushie or two missed a clue. Moral clarity may be admired, but intelligence myopia that perhaps failed to prevent the deaths of thousands will not be easily excused.

It's likely that these stitches won't unravel completely until after the 2004 election. And that's good news for Bush.



Source:__LA Times
Old 18th May 2003
  #861
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Alpha,

I want to say something anyway. Although, as the type I picture you you might even not like to hear such, but I still like to say.

First of all I am very positively surprised about what has been shown in this thread. In this forum hang around some guys who have said things that made me regard them very high on principle and who have my biggest sympathy.
You are one of them.

Even some of the conservative guys here have impressed me with some of their qualities.

E-Cue,

yes, I´m no native speaker, and worse than that I was in a hurry when flying over your post and what I understood seems to have been not excatly right.
In general I have found since long since that insulting gives no real meaning, so I guess it´s correct to apologize for where I went wrong. From your last obviously controlled reply I dig that I must have done so.

Seems I indeed missed the point about the hippies, as I understood I would be one and from there would be arguing on blind principle ( clishé ) instead of individually distinguished way.

Sorry for saying "stupid". I thought your pissing monkey would be pissing on my last ( and friendly meant ) remark in an earlier post addressed to Brian and thus on system critics at all.

Sorry also for "brain washed" which came from me believing you´d see the whole anti war position as mislead hysteria or so, which then seemed to me like the typical reception of brain washed.

Based on these appearently misunderstood impressions what I meant with "I know you can´t picture it, but that´s not my fault." was a world how it would be today if there hadn´t always been some people autonomously thinking and standing up for ideas of a better living and society.

The impression to be talking to a believer came from the points mentioned above. But to your reply on believe and will, what comes into my mind is the other way round: To believe is the will ( and comfort ) no to perceive facts.
Or other words describing it which I picked up once as a quote: Believing means hoping without knowing.
( Best definition I know of.)

Although I have the idea like you would be just too much against the Hippies as part of the small minority that at least make help to remember that there is rebel against the convention ( thus support the upcoming question of "Why is there rebel?" ) besides of that I agree very much about this:

Quote:
I was addressing the issue of how the hippie movement tends to take over people's thought process for them.
Many movements or organisations that arised from authentic desire to a change grounding on insights have been mutated to contraproductive breaks by the over taking process to thinking as you mention.

These latent processes that make the good energy run into empty space is indeed the worst phenomenon against progress. I think better even no organised move at all than a finally mutated to blur one.

So take my honest apologies for all that I said based on misunderstanding you.

But in general to the hippie theme as an expression and sign of rebel, although Logan might got your personal intentions too strong too ( like me somehow ), what he says on principle is what I think as well word for word.

But Brian knows us ******** folks anyway.

heh

Greets,

Ruphus
Old 18th May 2003
  #862
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
[But in general to the hippie theme as an expression and sign of rebel, although Logan might got your personal intentions too strong too ( [/B]
You're a bigger man than I Ruphus, I salute your positive attitude.
When I was a young revolutionary buck politics often involved some violence. The Fascists and cops often attacked us at demonstrations and we had to fight and fight we did, often very well. I pretty much reject that now, except in self defense and I'm willing to take a shot or two before I get riled. but the arrogance and stupidity of the right do irk me.
In those days we scoffed at the peace loving hippies and tried to make them see that capitalism had to be attacked, possibly I've mellowed in my old age, but I'm now proud to wear the hippie freak label and think of it as counter culture, counter to exploitation and usary. So I also apologise to E-cue for coming on too strong. But there ain't no one running naked through the trees around here just some folks who dare to imagine a better world and who are willing to work toward it. Take care Logan
Old 18th May 2003
  #863
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

ive seen the "hippie" culture and it is just as filled with exploitation and usury... and seeing their world knows for damn sure its isnt any "better", just different. the left is as wrong and the right.

maybe one day everyone will "figure it all out" but im not holding my breath.
Old 18th May 2003
  #864
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Hey Logan,

my big respect for you. I have always admired the brave who risk their individual health for just showing the yesterday spirits that they are not alone on the planet. Often having to count with quite unfair happenings as the police ususally defends the rights.

Alpha,

it has become common to lump lefts and rights, but come on, there is a difference on principle. The lefts are for equal rights while the rights are for the opposite. You can´t be meaning that to be the same.
I don´t think it to be objective to count personal failure of persons standing for the left wing as failure of the idea. And in practice there have always been much more individuals of the left wing with positive attitudes, who did their best for a democratic ideal.

And about hippies ... So you have seen hippies who exploid others like letting them work their asses off and rewarding them only a fraction of their labors out put? Feeding their own kids fat in abundance while watching others starving?

Sounds rather like about long haired conservatives to me.
;o)

Ruphus
Old 18th May 2003
  #865
Gear Addict
 

Alpha
Guess it depends on how you define, left and right. If the left you're talking about is Soviet style Communism, then I'd agree, because in reality that was/is no more than state capitalism, same for pretty much all the left wing states we see and have seen, they break down to states run at the behest and on the behalf of elites. They are still breaking things down along the old Marxist lines of the workers and the owners of the means of production.
The problem is that any remedy to a top down elitist type of government is pretty much closed off to us as I'm betting that most of us hate and despise "government", as a tremendous amount of socialization has gone into creating this state of mind. Instead of being against government that has been captured and perverted by the rich, we simply say we are against government, because we can not imagine government that involves us and meets the needs of the great majority. A great tradgedy really because any solutions to corporate style monopoly capitalism, is then closed off to us. The role of the counter culture type lifestyle then becomes an experiment in alternate societal relationships and like all experiments some fail, and lead to some pretty wacked situations, but some do succeed and provide great examples for future models of how we might organize society. Again the heavyily socialised myth that there is not enough to go around, so we had better look after number one, effects all these experiments, and can often lead to their demise or perversion. It's a life time struggle, but one that I'm pretty committed to. take care Logan
Old 18th May 2003
  #866
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

well, culture, counter-culture... left, right, its all the same thing.

personally, i would rather be capatalist than communist, or socialist. i strongly believe the one who works harder should be rewarded greater than the lazy.

i live in a town that is filled with "hippies", have travelled with them, have been to their "gatherings" and have friends who associate among them... capatalism is alive and well even in their enviroment. from the ones with fat rolls of cash to the beggers asking "brother/sister, can you spare a dime?" [uh, no... go get a ****ing job you bum]... and the true communal living is just plain sad where EVERYONE is brought down to an impoverished level.

humans will always look out for their own needs before all others. its in our very nature of personal survival. of course the corruption of greed is a heavy downside that comes along with it. This is why it will always "break down". i think that humanity is better served under a capatalistic framework where at the minimum, at least more jobs will be created by the rich for the poor.

and of course, the modern "hippies" for the most part are of fashion over ideology anyway.

and despite all of this, i do not believe in zero-sum behaviour. i think win-win situations are always the best course of action.
Old 18th May 2003
  #867
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

What alphajerk said. Definitely.



P.S. - Rufus, I feel the generalizations in your last post could benefit from a dose of reality. That post IMHO was more a list of bad stereotypes than anything close to real life.
Old 18th May 2003
  #868
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
well, culture, counter-culture... left, right, its all the same thing.

personally, i would rather be capatalist than communist, or socialist. i strongly believe the one who works harder should be rewarded greater than the lazy.

i live in a town that is filled with "hippies", have travelled with them, have been to their "gatherings" and have friends who associate among them... capatalism is alive and well even in their enviroment. from the ones with fat rolls of cash to the beggers asking "brother/sister, can you spare a dime?" [uh, no... go get a ****ing job you bum]... and the true communal living is just plain sad where EVERYONE is brought down to an impoverished level.

humans will always look out for their own needs before all others. its in our very nature of personal survival. of course the corruption of greed is a heavy downside that comes along with it. This is why it will always "break down". i think that humanity is better served under a capatalistic framework where at the minimum, at least more jobs will be created by the rich for the poor.

and of course, the modern "hippies" for the most part are of fashion over ideology anyway.

and despite all of this, i do not believe in zero-sum behaviour. i think win-win situations are always the best course of action.
Well I think you make my point exactly and I never insinuated that an alternative to to capitalism would be easy. But there are more myths in your post than say Ruphus' for example. The rich are not interested in creating jobs unless they create profit and lately they have hijacked government into spending a fair amont of it's macro economic policy protecting capital against inflation, by in fact shrinking the job market. Not to mention the current corporate policy of increasing share value by decreasing labour costs. What the present embodiment of capitalism is creating (to bring it back to this mamoth thread is a prementant state of war , exploitation , debt and uncertainty not to mention environmental degradation at a now unprecedented state. You'd have to be plain myopic to not see the problems that are encountered by a system that is based on perpetual growth. It's somewhat easy to ignore while we are on the upside as generally most of us in north america are, although we are creating disenfranchised at a pretty good clip here as well.
And the kind of voodoo economics based on tax cuts that the Bush bandits are implimenting will very quickly degrade what social and environmental servicesthat do exist and will also multiply by a consideral factor the type of taxes that hurt the little guy, namely property taxes and sales taxes. We'll see who is gung ho on rampant capitalism when the property taxes and hydro and water rates go through the roof and folks are forced from their homes. it's happening all around the world where right wing tax cutters are in power. But as I said it's an uphill battle to convince most folks who consider themselves on the upside of the economic system, that there should be a change, fortunately for us wackos that attempt such a thankless task, there are considerably more folks on the downside. Anyway we're getting way beyond the scope of this thread, aqnd I'm pretty sure you're not a candidate for the cadre anyway ;-). Take care Logan
Old 18th May 2003
  #869
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
What alphajerk said.

Rufus, I feel the generalizations in your last post could benefit from a dose of reality. That post IMHO was more a list of bad stereotypes than anything close to real life.
Jon,

not only you have been to Russia and all those places and don´t you worry about my sense for reality. Since my childhood I care to find out about what is up regardless of any comfort in mind.
And you?

What "sounds" are concerned. Have you never found that after a deep and complex thought, brought down to its principle it suddenly sounds simple?

Sounds are rather important in the audio world. In context it helps more to look out for coherences offered. Following them and controlling the sense of it brings much more of a competent judge than associating about how things might sound like.

As an example, for Europeans all black africans "look simlilar" while for them all Chinese do so. That´s how it "sounds". But while they might be yellow or black the have come from very different individual ways of life and actually do look quite differently when observed closely.

You had room enough here to observe me closely and see that I conclude based on facts (pritty many facts, if you allow me to mention. They took a big part of my life to gather them.)

Does it sound like Mao Tse-tung for you?
Well, what can I do about it?

You want to find out what is stereotype and what is economic reality? Don´t search among rappers, read demanding papers. See how much of gross national products vaporize in corruption, find out about the average measure that is rewarded to those who at highest rate indeed produce.

Afterwards I invite you to talk about stereotypes.

Alpha,

"i strongly believe the one who works harder should be rewarded greater than the lazy."

This is a classical stereotype.

That everybody should gain what he deserves is actually the principle of socialism.
The case you quote is the one Logan already pointed to.

Your idea about mens nature is also the common one, but it mustn´t be precisely a description of our nature.

Also there would remain a significant difference between being egoistic in a certain measure or to be from scrupulous to sadistic.

It has been clearly shown that you hate injustice and violence. How come you think capitalism, a system that grounds on the exploitation of under privilegeds, could ever be the right way?

Is it no violence in your eyes, when people are forced to spend most time of their lifes with working, because their works value is all the time leaking into thiords pockets? ( Pockets of those lazies BTW. who actually do not really work at all, except of anxciously spinning around to encrease, encrease and encrease what comes in already in heapes.)

( Back to you, Jon, at this point. Sounds stereotype again, hm? I have been observing rich folks from very close. Have been with them on their boats, in their saunas, in their offices and on their parties. Those of them who hung around in their office all the time, didn´t need to do so. But they either feared any penny that could be missed or their ruined climate at home, or both at once. Others again visited their "working place" just from time to time, to make their staff not to forget their presence. But none of them you could compare with the output of those of whom they profit. Not in a lifetime.)

To call uncomfortable statements stereotype is the comfort of not having to investigate what it is about.
You can call my impressions clishés and stereotype any time it does not upset me, because I know that I do my best to understand what goes on, although it drives me crazy.

That is what counts.

Ruphus
Old 18th May 2003
  #870
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus


But Brian knows us ******** folks anyway.

heh

Greets,

Ruphus

Hey, when looking back over the thread, the spasmodic moments are pretty evenly distrubuted across ideaology, I think.

I see a couple of my own lapses of logic, in the heat of the moment. Plenty of ******ation to go around, I always say.


Regards,
Brian T
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