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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 28th April 2003
  #811
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
well....now it's looking as if there is factual written evidence of direct links between Al Qeada and Iraq. Also, looks like one of Britian's politicians
(the one with the biggest mouth; opposing Action in Iraq) was on Saddam's payrole.
Doesn't suprise me in the least.
....and if you were familiar with the Great British press you'd know not to be surprised if it were purely slander. Check Google for Michael Heseltine to get an idea of this kind of thing happening in the past here.

George Galloway, the politician in question, is left of left and disliked by the majority of his own party (Labour), the newspaper who made the allegations is very right wing (Conservative).

Anyone with so much as a slight interest in politics knows that the Telegraph (newspaper) would like nothing more than to bring Galloway down, which they have tried to do with this affair.

For the record Recorderman, instead of simply stating...
Quote:
"Also, looks like one of Britian's politicians (the one with the biggest mouth; opposing Action in Iraq) was on Saddam's payrole."
... you should check the whole story. Yes, the Telegraph originally came out all guns blazing saying they'd found "evidence" that Galloway was on Saddam's payroll. But, if you understand the British press, a couple of days later they issued as much of a retraction as you would ever get from a British newspaper, by saying that Galloway may not have had any idea of what was going on.

The great tradition in Britain is that newspapers make blazing allegations on the front page, then, when they're found to be wrong, apologise in the smallest print they have on page 26. They do this because they know, generally, people don't have the money to take them to a court of law, or will not take the risk of incurring the costs. These costs are nothing to the newspapers, so they can basically print what they want. George Galloway IS taking them to court, hence the back tracking that the Telegraph later printed, but he may yet still bite them on the ass.

George Galloway is a very intelligent guy and a great public speaker who, although I don't fully share his views, I respect. If he is found to have been "on the take" his public life will be finished, and I think rightly so, but if he has been set up I hope it brings about some kind of change in the British press regarding justification of press articles prior to printing.

Maybe in America, judging from the way you phrased your post, this has been portrayed as some kind of war justification (you know, "Look!! They were on the take whole time!! There's your Anti-War sentiment!!"), but over here in the UK it hasn't really been viewed like that, although the underlying feeling is that "THEY" would like to bring Galloway down for being anti-war is present. It is more being viewed as, if it IS true, a breakdown of/problem with our political system.

It should all unfold eventually, either way....
Old 28th April 2003
  #812
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
The great tradition in Britain is that newspapers make blazing allegations on the front page, then, when they're found to be wrong, apologise in the smallest print they have on page 26. They do this because they know, generally, people don't have the money to take them to a court of law, or will not take the risk of incurring the costs. These costs are nothing to the newspapers, so they can basically print what they want. George Galloway IS taking them to court, hence the back tracking that the Telegraph later printed, but he may yet still bite them on the ass.
its the same way in the states...i saw one head line in the NY Post(one of the cheesier news papers)...US destroys suspected al qaeda poison factory, but i think it turned out to be a baby forumula factory, but of course this wasn't on the front page...the news is PROPAGANDA propagated by the rich especially when it comes to foreign affairs because none of us in our right mind would be there and attempt to get the RIGHT information! for all those that dont know
Old 28th April 2003
  #813
Those claiming US military sucsess in Afganistan, might want to have a re think

Tonnage of bombs dropped 'as viewed on prime time TV' seeming a reasonable pay back for Sept 11- check
Kabul free of Taliban - check
Bin Laden - er..
Rest of country now run by war lords - er...
Democracy - er..
Follow up - er..who cares!

Kid yourself it's all cleared up!

Anyhow you cant leave Iraq in a similar condition.
Old 28th April 2003
  #814
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

I have been close to the press for nameless wierdness involving high-flying friends of mine recently, and learned a lot about the way it works.

At all levels, from the scraping the barrel showbiz cheese to the high level political, the free press in this country is a charade from what I can make out.

Money and power wins every time. If you can't stand up financially to rebuke what is written then it is true.

I just read a full page article recently about a friend of mine's frank and candid interview with an extremly well known and established columnist for an extremely well regarded paper here in the UK where she opened up on a lot of issues and confided in him explicitly.

She'd never met him. And didn't know about it till we all phoned her up. She'd never even heard of him in fact.

So she goes 'Oh well, whatever' because that's all she can do.

And it goes on. And that's just showbiz nonsense. Imagine what happens at higher levels.

It is not good enough to have a stensil of belief to peer at the press through.
Old 29th April 2003
  #815
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Messiah's Avatar
 

An interesting read.

A little taster;
Quote:
...says this growing American religious fervour, much of which is Christian fundamentalist, puts the United States at odds with other advanced industrial nations. As one paradoxical explanation, he cites the American doctrine of separation of church and state.
Old 29th April 2003
  #816
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Messiah
An interesting read.

A little taster;
Carl, you antichrist minion heh

LMFBO

malice
Old 29th April 2003
  #817
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

one things for sure....
can I bring this thread back to life with a few hasty sentences, or what?
Old 4th May 2003
  #818
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 

dfegad
Old 4th May 2003
  #819
Lives for gear
 
Messiah's Avatar
 

Saddam Stand Up
Old 4th May 2003
  #820
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
dfegad
If stupidity would make noise I guess this was 140 dB.
Applause! heh
Old 12th May 2003
  #821
So no weapons of mass destruction found yet.

Brian you said your confidence in the Bush administration would be undermined if none were ever found... As we were all fed the line that it was because of them that the war needed to go ahead.

Well?

How long do you think is needed to find em before we can say that no significant WOMD did exist and we were all fed a lie?

Old 12th May 2003
  #822
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

How's the deadline Brian - mines become gargantuan.
Old 12th May 2003
  #823
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
How long do you think is needed to find em before we can say that no significant WOMD did exist and we were all fed a lie?

probably as long as it took for people to forget that they never found bin laden... or even saddam.

oh well, whats billions and billions of dollars spent? we are taxed to **** anyway...
Old 12th May 2003
  #824
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk

oh well, whats billions and billions of dollars spent? we are taxed to **** anyway...
Some hundred of billions investment are an outstanding good deal for oil trillions worth that have to be payed not much more for than output and transport. Fantastic biz, actually.

Well, the fact that investors and earners are not the same ... Uhm, one isn´t supposed to be so pedantic on little details - and finally the earners might let the investors have supposed tiny crumbs of their cake too when they´ll raise prices only in smaller steps.

BTW, have you seen the names of the staff for the temporary adminstartion over there? It reads like a bad joke.

Buck Walters as Gouvernor of South Iraq.
Lastly manager of an Insurance Company
---

Adminstration:

Ahmed Tschalabi
As consultant in the Financial Ministry.
This man has been sentenced because of banking fraud in Jordan, you know that. He is still on the run.

Philip Carroll
Coordinator of restoration of oilindusrtry.

Lastly chief of the Oil company Shell.

Zalmay Khalizad

As connector between White House and Iraq opposition.

Former Crew of Wolfowitz and lobbyist for the oil company Unocal at the Taliban regime in Kabul.


James Woolsey
as Minister of Information

Former CIA chief, lastly Lawyer and lobbyist of big US companies.
Old 12th May 2003
  #825
Lives for gear
 

weapons of mass destruction WILL be found the only question will be...are they REALLY saddam's or were the planted by the bush administration...my funny bone tells me they'll be planted...
Old 14th May 2003
  #826
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
So no weapons of mass destruction found yet.

Brian you said your confidence in the Bush administration would be undermined if none were ever found... As we were all fed the line that it was because of them that the war needed to go ahead.

Well?

How long do you think is needed to find em before we can say that no significant WOMD did exist and we were all fed a lie?

I haven't seen this thread in a while. Thought it had been retired.

Jules, I stick by my statement that not finding WMD will be a blow to Bush's credibility, bigtime, including for me personally. I really don't know how that will turn out. I do think that if planting them was in the cards, they would have already been "found". IF they say, "Got 'em", I expect some serious scrutiny will occur. How long until time's up? I don't know. I would think 90 days is about fair, but who's to say? Sooner than later, though.

I think if they never find them, we will hear some rationalisation about how they were all shipped abroad or destroyed "just days" before the war. Nope. Not gonna buy that one. Either we find them or else the stated "self defense" reason for attacking Iraq was at best a grand intel screwup, at worst, a premeditated farce. I'm not about reinventing history as a convenience. If they were wrong, that sucks and I ain't happy about it.

Conversely, if they were to be legitimately found, how many (even in this forum) would never allow the possibility that it was legit? Bottom line is this will never resolve clean, either way, I suppose.

One other thought. I still believe the ultimate outcome of this is likely to be a good thing, longterm. I know some disagree, but I think we are likely to see more personal freedom in the Middle East ultimately, as a result. There is not a single true democracy in the Arab world, AFAIK. Frankly, I don't know if even quasi-fundamentalist Islam and democracy can coexist. Even female sufferage is a huge hurdle in that scenario. I don't know where that leaves off. But a world where women are mostly 3rd class citizens (and sometimes not even that) surely sucks for at least half of the people.

I expect the dose of freedom in Iraq will prove intoxicating to people currently ruled by monarchs, hardcore mullahs or dictators. Optimism again. It could get messy in the process (likely will involve some revolts and civil wars eventually), but let's face it, the governments in the Middle East have not exactly been an enlightening force to their people in general. Something needs to change for the people's sake.

What I'm saying is that I believe this may turn out to be more of a positive development than many who despise the whole affair think. But in no way will that redeem having been disingenous about the reasons, if that turns out to be the case. IMO, they are seperate issues, and no credit becomes due for any good that may come of it to anyone who has lied to get their way.

So how long do you say we give it, Jules?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 14th May 2003
  #827
I dunno, about now really, or by summer?

Seems a rip off on a grand scale..

Presumably there was little or no accessible oil in Afghanistan, because that has been left in a mess and forgotten.

I predict if Americans dont see a McDonalds opening in Baghdad or smiling parents delivering children to a little league baseball game soon, they will lose interest in Iraq too. I personally don't buy the 'hopefully they will go for the chance to live like us" plan. Its a hollow offer anyhow once centuries of their own culture are taken into account. The US can't even get it's friends Israel to play ball after just giving them 3 Billion (or was it 9?), how on earth will it get Iraqi's people to when they haven't even got running water?

The we helped you, now you owe us policy is NOT working for the US IMHO.
Old 14th May 2003
  #828
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

Presumably there was little or no accessible oil in Afghanistan, because that has been left in a mess and forgotten.


Why do you say that? Seriously, I would like to know if that is really so, and how one would be certain. A bigger mess now than under the Taliban?

A quick Google search turned up THIS that looks like there are hundreds of millions of dollars in US aid currently being spent there, with a great deal of infrastructure being rebuilt, BTW, much of it having been shredded by the fine young Taliban themselves.

Speaking of which, where exactly are the oil-wealthy Muslim brethren of the Afghans? People who have billions of their own in US dollars to toss around at their discretion, but none to spare for their poor "brothers". The Taliban were a plague by any standard, including the vast majority of Muslim's standard. Why is it only the US who is to blame for not doing more to help?

Or was kicking the Taliban out a bad thing to do? Gee, I guess we do sort of miss those public executions of women as entertainment at the soccer stadium, don't we? And these days, they're not even putting women in prison for teaching little girls to read. Wearing makeup is no longer a jailable offense either. What's the world come to?

Who wants to make the *factual* case that the majority of Afghans are worse off than 3 years ago? Lay it out here with sources, if you don't mind. Because I'm thinking that at least half of that country, the female half for sure, is likely to tell you that you're full of crap. No offense.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 14th May 2003
  #829
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i hear the warlords have taken over, the taliban is regrouping again... and terrorist attacks continue [saudi], i think things will get far worse now. "freeing" iraq was a grave mistake.

i think this fits the 'you can lead a person to "freedom" but you cant make them drink it' proverb.

you really got to wonder WHY democracy doesnt exist anywhere over there.
Old 14th May 2003
  #830
Gear Addict
 

Brian
Afghanistan is certainly no better off than it was and Iraq is certainly much worse off than it was.
In Afghanistan the country has disolved in a lawless warlord governed state anywhere outside of Kabul. Memebers of the government, dare not leave the boundaries of the city. Women are still subject to all the excess of the Taliban with the only difference being that the country is no longer safe enough for the non governmental groups that were monitoring some of the abuses to function any more. I have a friend recently return from a food aid project there and he says the situation is grim. Of course the heroin fields are back up and running so the warlords will soon have funds for more arms buying.
In Iraq people are dying daily from lack of water and food and basic sevices. Heard a phone call from an iraqi man a few days ago who kept repeating how bad the situation was and kept shouting "were are not free tell the world what is going on here" over and over again. This guy was no supporter of Saddam, but he was burying people in his back yard who were dying from lack of water and medicine.
Mean while you guys are installing bank fraud artists , racist twits and corporate weasels to govern sections of Iraq all while and shooting the protesters,who don't agree. All the while quite probably setting up the area for an endless round of civil wars.
But all is well with George and his band of thieves, the contracts are rolling out to all the fellow republican flacks.
You just don't get it do you. Your country is currently governed by a corporate elite who will use any means to reach into your pocket to extract your money. Those means include a phoney war and phoney rebuilding infrastructure contracts. Don't forget these guys are the specalists in the $5000 military grade nuts and bolts scams. George Bush is lying to your face while reaching into your pocket for outrageous amounts of money that he is giving to his friends, that's crime enough, but the fact that he chooses to kill women and children and destablise the infracstuctures of whole countries as a by product of his greed and deceptions, is as low as you can get. But it takes some outrageous ****ing gaul to ascert that now these folks are better off. The world could do without this type of American know how. Take care Logan
Old 14th May 2003
  #831
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Logan

You just don't get it do you. Your country is currently governed by a corporate elite who will use any means to reach into your pocket to extract your money. Those means include a phoney war and phoney rebuilding infrastructure contracts. Don't forget these guys are the specalists in the $5000 military grade nuts and bolts scams. George Bush is lying to your face while reaching into your pocket for outrageous amounts of money that he is giving to his friends, that's crime enough, but the fact that he chooses to kill women and children and destablise the infracstuctures of whole countries as a by product of his greed and deceptions, is as low as you can get. But it takes some outrageous ****ing gaul to ascert that now these folks are better off. The world could do without this type of American know how. Take care Logan
**** you and cananda,france , germany, russia, et al....the economy in my neck of the woods is comin back nice...hope you all starve..
Old 14th May 2003
  #832
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
**** you and cananda,france , germany, russia, et al....the economy in my neck of the woods is comin back nice...hope you all starve..
thats such an asshole thing to say. yes, the economy is starting to come back FINALLY [ill make more in the next two weeks than most make in 3 months] but hoping people will starve to death? how ****ed up is that? how about i hope the record industry dies a horrible death and your limited talent ass will no longer have a job anymore and you will have to work at mcdonalds... fuuck

you are just a ****ing sheep like the rest of america. grow the **** up and open your eyes. all this hatin of countries just because dubya tells you to is ********. i just charged someone $100 to take out 5 words from something i did for them because it had to do with france and they were insecure about having in because of the recent spread of ignorance... ****ing idiots. well, freedom aint free and ill keep charging people excessive rates for their ignorance. fuuck "freedom" fries fuuck "freedom" toast
Old 14th May 2003
  #833
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
**** you and cananda,france , germany, russia, et al....the economy in my neck of the woods is comin back nice...hope you all starve..
truth hurts rec man?
Old 14th May 2003
  #834
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Hmm. Recorderman showing terrific Columbinist tendencies. i bet he was bullied at school and didn't even have enough courage to ask to go to the rest room.

Also what does his post have to do with anything? Well, nothing. Pity those terrorists aren't a bit cleverer and do us all a favour.

Possibly the most selfish outburst ever.

And if that was 'just to get the forum stirred up' well it worked and it wasn't funny.

Pointless.

fuuck
Old 14th May 2003
  #835
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Great replies.
If you guys were here I would had a hard time to withstand from embracing you for that.
heh
Old 14th May 2003
  #836
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Alpha -

He does work at McDonalds. At weekends he works on new designs for the Statue Of Liberty. His latest idea is to replace it with a huge yellow 'M'. Once that's in place he's planning on detaching the US from Canada and South America and pushing it off into the Pacific.

Then he'll run for President.
Old 15th May 2003
  #837
Here ya go Brian,

Some insights into areas you were 'sure of'.

Christian Aid website

"Afganistan, one year on"

Q - "Have the people benefited from the US 'War on Terror?'
Let us be clear that the sole reason the international community went into Afghanistan was to attempt to capture Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda members; if people in Afghanistan have benefited it is a side-effect of the war on terror. This has not been achieved."

And,,

"Some $1.8 billion was pledged for the current year at the Tokyo conference in March, of which only $1 billion has been committed. But a recent Afghanistan government report says that of this only $560 million has actually been disbursed, of which only $90 million has been given directly to the government to support its operations. 'The Government urgently needs the pledges in Tokyo to be turned into cash to support the operating budget. This will allow a focus on reforming the administration and delivering basic services rather than fundraising,' says the report."

Read more here: http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/afghanistan/0209qa

Regarding womens rights

"In terms of broader social development, at the end of 2002, very little had been accomplished and few inroads had been made in addressing critical issues for women such as employment, healthcare, and education. It is true there are many more girls going to schools now. But it is unclear if this represents a very significant improvement over the work of the clandestine schools that operated under the Taliban regime. Recently, the Lord Chief Justice extended warlord Ismail Khan's ban on the co-education of males and females to the whole country. This means that girls cannot be taught by men even though there are not enough qualified female teachers, particularly at high school and university level. More resources are needed to cover girls education. It also means that there are almost Taliban-like restrictions, which in reality dramatically reduce access to education for girls. The international commmunity must protest, otherwise mullahs will see it as a REAL signal that the fundamentalists can do what they like regarding women."

http://www.whrnet.org/docs/interview-brunet-0302.html

tutt
Old 15th May 2003
  #838
Here ya go Brian,

Some insights into areas you were 'sure of'.

Christian Aid website

"Afganistan, one year on"

Q - "Have the people benefited from the US 'War on Terror?'
Let us be clear that the sole reason the international community went into Afghanistan was to attempt to capture Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda members; if people in Afghanistan have benefited it is a side-effect of the war on terror. This has not been achieved."

And,,

"Some $1.8 billion was pledged for the current year at the Tokyo conference in March, of which only $1 billion has been committed. But a recent Afghanistan government report says that of this only $560 million has actually been disbursed, of which only $90 million has been given directly to the government to support its operations. 'The Government urgently needs the pledges in Tokyo to be turned into cash to support the operating budget. This will allow a focus on reforming the administration and delivering basic services rather than fundraising,' says the report."

Read more here: http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/afghanistan/0209qa

Regarding womens rights

"In terms of broader social development, at the end of 2002, very little had been accomplished and few inroads had been made in addressing critical issues for women such as employment, healthcare, and education. It is true there are many more girls going to schools now. But it is unclear if this represents a very significant improvement over the work of the clandestine schools that operated under the Taliban regime. Recently, the Lord Chief Justice extended warlord Ismail Khan's ban on the co-education of males and females to the whole country. This means that girls cannot be taught by men even though there are not enough qualified female teachers, particularly at high school and university level. More resources are needed to cover girls education. It also means that there are almost Taliban-like restrictions, which in reality dramatically reduce access to education for girls. The international commmunity must protest, otherwise mullahs will see it as a REAL signal that the fundamentalists can do what they like regarding women."

http://www.whrnet.org/docs/interview-brunet-0302.html

tutt
Old 15th May 2003
  #839
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
**** you and cananda,france , germany, russia, et al....the economy in my neck of the woods is comin back nice...hope you all starve..
I guess that's why the economic figures released today showed consumer confidence way down in the US. Republican thieves, voodoo economics and income redistribution from the poor to the rich, every time you guys have tried that the economy ends up in the toilet, and a Bush starts a war to boost his ratings, gets kinda old doesn't it? But by all means keep holding your hat over your heart and clenching your sphincter and I'm sure you'll be fine. Actually you might want to let up on the clenching, seems like something is starting to back up. take care anyway Logan
Old 15th May 2003
  #840
Lives for gear
 

Man, the invective in this thread is intense. Too intense for me.

Most of these axes, including mine, are so ground down now, they've become pretty dull.


Regards,
Brian T
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