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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 22nd April 2003
  #781
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
A form of morality, or if you will, behavioral philosphy, is a prerequsite for any social interaction outside of anarchy.

So some sort of morality must exist in a culture. Yours is not an really an argument over the existence of morality. Yours is simply an effort to disallow other morals than your own.


Errrrr, ummmmm, your underwear is showing.........


Regards,
Brian T
heh Funny. Today it would be the underpants with pink panther on it.

But, Brian, if you check out about it you might see that it surely needs common rules and understanding for social individuals, but exactly not moral.

It needs ethics which is the fundamental difference between the two as sense and nonesense.

Oh, and I just had a look, it wasn´t pink panther, but a simple grey and blue square. heh

Ruphus
Old 22nd April 2003
  #782
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
heh Funny. Today it would be the underpants with pink panther on it.

But, Brian, if you check out about it you might see that it surely needs common rules and understanding for social individuals, but exactly not moral.

It needs ethics which is the fundamental difference between the two as sense and nonesense.

Oh, and I just had a look, it wasn´t pink panther, but a simple grey and blue square. heh

Ruphus

Maybe this is just an issue of Euro/American semantics, I don't know.

In any event, since I have not said so lately, allow me to sincerely thank the many on this Forum for whom English is not their native language.

I/we are in your debt for taking your time to communicate so well in English for those of us too lazy or stupid (including me) to have learned another language. (OK, I do speak a tad of Spanish).

Seriously, thank you guys for conversing in English, since many of us have no other choice. I appreciate it and am constantly impressed by how well ideas are articulated here.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 22nd April 2003
  #783
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

If the US had elected someone more presentable as a leader, Europe wouldn't be so worried now.
What...like Clinton? There's more to a book than a cover. Bush, however he may be painted by some, has followed a path based upon conviction. Thank God he hasn't payed the "please everyone and the polls" game.
Lincoln was treated much the same way while he was in office. On his wya by train to Gettysburg, he scribbled on the back of an envelope what was to become th " Gettysburg Adress'...very famous now, but at the time is was painted as really short nd not very good, the speaker before him had been very long and blusterous; Lincoln by comparison was deemed lacking...history deemed the opinion of the time of that president as wrong. He also had the strength of his convictions (Lincoln)...at a cabinet meeting he asked everyone around the table...."yeah or nay"...on a particular issue...Lincoln onion was yeah...after each and every one else on the cabinet had sounded a nay he said..." the yeah's have it". That's leadership.....


I'm in the process of finding an article by Gary Kima (spelling?)...editor of Salon.com...from what I've heard he has recently published an article explaining his position on the Iraqi episode...he say's how he hoped for thr failure of the U.S. (a common wish of many on the left...) and how he now believes he was WRONG....when I get it I'll post it....
Old 22nd April 2003
  #784
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Here is one such piece, from the NY Times.

He brings up interesting points, but I will say he has the grace to admit his dire predictions were wrong thus far.

Errrrr (clears throat), I don't suppose that rings any bells in here, does it?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 22nd April 2003
  #785
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

Well... you see, if you had a better president who's eyes weren't quite so close together and who was a better orator, politician / statesman who could stand on his own two feet without ALWAYS being linked with his so called 'great advisors' we all might be a lot less 'panicked' about this "unexpected" and "unprecedented" situation. Bush Jnr just seems a puppet controlled by his dad's cronies.

Jules,

I quite like President Bush, I voted for him, I am happy he is the current president, and I believe he is much more his own man than you do. He's not perfect, but he will do. About 75% of Americans currently seem to agree with me, BTW, substantially more than voted for him in an emotionally charged election.

And so, the difference between the American and European mindset is further highlighted. I just wanted to point out that you cannot simply dismiss Bush as an abberation. He has enjoyed well above 50% approval since his election. His approval ratings equal and exceed those of European leaders. If you are offended by his actions and appearance, you will have to blame the whole country, not just the administration.

There. I said it. But then again, I like PM Blair as well, so what could I know?

Old 22nd April 2003
  #786
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recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT

I quite like President Bush, I voted for him
I DIDN"T vote for him(his Dad; Clinton or Gore)...and I like how he's handling things too....
Old 22nd April 2003
  #787
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littledog's Avatar
 

Approval ratings during a war, especially a "successful" one are misleading. It's a human tendency to put aside internal differences when faced with an "outside" threat. A huge majority of New Yorkers approved of Giuliani right after 9/11, even though many would have never voted for him.

If one has to fight a war, I would assume that we all agree that minimization of innocent casualites and swift conclusion are admirable. That would seem to be the case here.
Old 22nd April 2003
  #788
"If you are offended by his actions and appearance, you will have to blame the whole country, not just the administration."

Brian you are shameless in your constant attempts on this thread to shoehorn any dislike of Bush to be a dislike of Americans.

No I can only blame myself... as a US citizen, I should have bothered to register for an overseas 'postal' vote. I am sure after the last elections many other non voters will have also been kicking themselves for being so stupid.

If you dont vote you deserve what you get..

grudge
Old 22nd April 2003
  #789
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

I thought both Gore and GWB were pretty dubious choices back in 2000. However, I have to admit that GWB has really come into his own since then.

I prefer GWB's solid values and courage to Clinton's moral relativism and irresponsibility.

In hindsight, many Europeans overestimated Clinton...and imho many of the same now underestimate GWB on a number of levels.

And there is Tony Blair. Frankly, I think he is just about the best UK leader I've ever seen....intelligent, pro-European, eloquent, dynamic, and courageous enough to follow his convictions.

I wonder who on the British political scene the anti-Blair folks would prefer to see him replaced with?
Old 22nd April 2003
  #790
He's "our Clinton" as you might (or might not) say....

His limpet like grip on Bush seems to aid Europes cause ....... somewhat....

Most recent dislike for him stems from his association wth Bush

grudge

Aren't politicians ALL bad and in need of constant scrutiny?
Old 22nd April 2003
  #791
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
"If you are offended by his actions and appearance, you will have to blame the whole country, not just the administration."

Brian you are shameless in your constant attempts on this thread to shoehorn any dislike of Bush to be a dislike of Americans.

Jules, I reckon Brian T is not saying you should dislike Americans. He is saying that GWB's actions and policies have the support of a majority of Americans at this time, so your issue with GWB is, generally speaking, an issue with the position of the majority of the Americans at this time.
Old 22nd April 2003
  #792
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Aren't politicians ALL bad and in need of constant scrutiny?
I'll agree with the constant scrutiny part.

They're not ALL bad, but enough are corrupt or self-serving enough to give them all a bad name.

An uncle of mine was a US Senator in the 90s...he was honest, principled, and did his best...unfortunately, the politics (esp. election campaign BS) nauseated him enough to retire after two terms.
Old 22nd April 2003
  #793
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Jules, I reckon Brian T is not saying you should dislike Americans. He is saying that GWB's actions and policies have the support of a majority of Americans at this time, so your issue with GWB is, generally speaking, an issue with the position of the majority of the Americans at this time.

Thank you, Jon. That is exactly what I mean, and maybe you have just said it better than I.

Jules, I'm saying that the majority of Americans support Bush's decisions and actions, and on the contrary, I think you keep trying to isolate your wholesale disapproval of Bush from a disapproval of most American's wishes and choices.

That is a more thorny issue than you think, IMO.

(Shameless? I'm hurt.)


Regards,
Brian T
Old 23rd April 2003
  #794
BT - "Jules, I'm saying that the majority of Americans support Bush's decisions and actions"

What a right wing, wild over generalization!

You must be refering to poll results on Iraq right? You don't mean 'everything he does" do you?

"On the contrary, I think you keep trying to isolate your wholesale disapproval of Bush from a disapproval of most American's wishes and choices."

TO CLEAR IT UP FOR YOU ONCE & FOR ALL!

Bush - dont trust him much, think he needs an eye kept on him. That's my personal judgement &"gut instinct" about him as an individual.

American people outside the Bush administration - not knowing much about them as individuals, get no judgment passed whatsoever. Certainly I regard none as being involved in day to day military or foreign policy decisions. I have overall, pleasant thoughts towards them.

As for AMERICA as a country - the liberal candle I hold for it is still kept alight, with memory of the last election results (50-50) and my hopes of other like minded people, voting in the next elections.

Brian, your "hatred of leader = hatred of us" style statements tend towards the more ugly end of the right wing spectrum IMHO.
Old 23rd April 2003
  #795
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
BT - "Jules, I'm saying that the majority of Americans support Bush's decisions and actions"

What a right wing, wild over generalization!

You must be refering to poll results on Iraq right? You don't mean 'everything he does" do you?

The word "hate" appears nowhere in my posts in this exchange. I can't believe it's this hard to connect here, Jules, since I have the feeling we would have a smashing good time sitting around listening to music we both dig. You know, nice liberal stuff like Nugent and Rammstein (just kidding dude).

Jules, one mo' time. Currently, 73% of Americans approve of George Bush's performance of the office of President. That is the sumtotal of the job. They dig him.

There are different numbers for the war, the economy, etc. All are above 50%, even among registered Democrats. Yes, that is correct, even among Democrats, Bush has majority support. Among Republicans, it's obviously much higher yet.

I'm not saying you hate Americans. I have never said that, don't think that, don't think anybody in this thread hates Americans. Is that clear? No hate of Americans here is what I am saying. Not here. Hate......no. OK?

All I am saying is that I think you, and maybe some others, feel more comfortable in castigating Bush when you clearly dissassociate him from the American populace.

But the vast majority of the American populace apparently does not wish to be disassociated from President Bush. I can understand how that might be troubling to Europeans, but troubling or not, it sure seems to be true.

The reason I brought this up is in direct relation to your post about the differences in the European and American mindsets. This affirms your contention, IMO.


(You' re not on any antihistamines are you?)


Regards,
Brian T
Old 23rd April 2003
  #796
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David R.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT

Jules, I'm saying that the majority of Americans support Bush's decisions and actions, and on the contrary, I think you keep trying to isolate your wholesale disapproval of Bush from a disapproval of most American's wishes and choices.
I am an American, been one all my life. I am so against Bush's decisions and actions. He was not elected by me (or by the people) and does not reflect my views.

I am guessing 90% of the people I have talked with about this, in bars or in a cafe, friends and strangers, do not support Bush's actions.

I was dismissed for being a 'liberal' from San Francisco before. Too bad, there are 3/4 of a million people here, that is alot of dissent.

Old 23rd April 2003
  #797
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by David R.
I am an American, been one all my life. I am so against Bush's decisions and actions. He was not elected by me (or by the people) and does not reflect my views.

I am guessing 90% of the people I have talked with about this, in bars or in a cafe, friends and strangers, do not support Bush's actions.

I was dismissed for being a 'liberal' from San Francisco before. Too bad, there are 3/4 of a million people here, that is alot of dissent.

Not a problem. The 27 percent constitute millions of completely valid voices and opinions. More power to ya'. Next election is your chance to make a change. Go for it. I would.

You have to love the freedom to be able to do that.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 23rd April 2003
  #798
Whoa! Brian!

When was that election?

Hey! Grab a poll result and knock yourself out!

You will be ok in the morning!

Sheesh!
Old 23rd April 2003
  #799
Brian - "All I am saying is that I think you, and maybe some others, feel more comfortable in castigating Bush when you clearly disassociate him from the American populace."

I see him as an individual. You seem to regard him as the "embodiment of the collective conscience" of the nation. That is a presumptuous, dark, sinister and incorrect viewpoint IMHO.

You seem unable to make any real distiction between "political platform" (as stated prior to election) from "tasks undertaken while in office". (There is a difference you know) and the American people.

You attempt to lump them all together in a basic 'glob'. No chance!

Someone that votes say, 2 years ago, doesn't always agree with what the elected person does through the tenure of leadership!

Blind trust in leadership is what got Germany in so much hot water in the late 30's! Screw that! Is that what you want from Americans?

tutt
Old 23rd April 2003
  #800
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

On the one hand you have individual views. In music and showbiz circles, it's pretty normal to generally hear more liberal than conservative sentiment. No big deal. But compared to the overall population we are pretty much on the fringe and marginal in numbers.

On the other hand you have the sentiment of the overall population. Not just the coasts, but the heartland. Polls attempt to measure this. At this time in the US, the polls seem to indicate that a majority (i.e. over 50%) of Americans are in favor of Bush and his policies.

Hey, I grew up in Eugene, Oregon, a university town. Back then, it was a hippie counterculture city if there ever was one. But though many music and counterculture folks are anti-Bush, it appears to be a minority position at this time relative to the overall American population.
Old 23rd April 2003
  #801
Lives for gear
 

I am currently sitting here laughing my butt off. This has all the earmarks of the "Who's on first, What's on second...." comedy routine. It's just a funny string of clean communications misses all around, so far as I can tell.

The fact that I'm not offended that Jules continues to impune me with lines like "Brian, your "hatred of leader = hatred of us" style statements tend towards the more ugly end of the right wing spectrum IMHO.", and the ever popular "That is a presumptuous, dark, sinister and incorrect viewpoint IMHO." You're killin' me, man.

I love Jules, though I've never met him in person, and in some odd way am beginning to find these little gems of malediction endearing. That may mean I really am dark and sinister, I couldn't say. Seriously, did you ever notice how if you believe someone respects and/or appreciates you, criticism is not so hard to take, even wrong criticism? Hence, me sitting here grinning at the mass semantic confusion that confronts me.

I cannot bring myself to attempt any more clarification, though I'm pretty confident in a perfect world, there would be some. Nope, euthanasia at this point is the best solution, I believe.

So do I really come off a little dark and sinister? That could be cool. I mean, maybe it's not too late for me to form a band again. Lemme see. I could call it "The Nashvillage People" and have all manner of politically incorrect, right wing characters. Anybody have any suggestions? I'm thinking at least one Confederate soldier would be mandatory, yes? I think I liked the artillery uniforms the best. Maybe Kid Rock could front the thing, in appropriate costume of course. Me, I'm on bass in a white Southern Belle hoop skirt and a sunbonnet.


Regards,
Brian T

P.S. And Dear God, before I go to sleep, please help Jules and his friends to know I'm just joking about the band, especially the Confederate part. And thank you for keeping mom, dad and the kids healthy. Amen.
Old 23rd April 2003
  #802
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littledog's Avatar
 

Somehow my point got lost, so I'm gonna try again:

75% of Americans (or probably anybody else) won't agree on ANYTHING, George Bush or otherwise, UNLESS there is an external unifying threat. As soon as the threat is perceived to be in the past, the poll numbers will revert to normal.

To make any larger implication about Americans supporting Bush, etc. is silly. As I said, the same numbers were applicable to Giuliani after 9/11, FDR after Pearl Harbor, etc.

There's been a lot of wonderful thought provoking discussion here. Let's get back to that and leave poll numbers taken in the first 3 weeks of a war aside. The poll numbers are also a function of no one wanting to be seen as undermining the young men and women putting their lives on the line. Let the war drag on for years like Vietnam (with tens of thousands of American casualties) and then see how likely that 75% would be maintained.
Old 23rd April 2003
  #803
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Maybe this is just an issue of Euro/American semantics, I don't know.

In any event, since I have not said so lately, allow me to sincerely thank the many on this Forum for whom English is not their native language.

I/we are in your debt for taking your time to communicate so well in English for those of us too lazy or stupid (including me) to have learned another language. (OK, I do speak a tad of Spanish).

Seriously, thank you guys for conversing in English, since many of us have no other choice. I appreciate it and am constantly impressed by how well ideas are articulated here.


Regards,
Brian T

Thank you Brian for acknowledging us being in use of a foreign language.
For me English is the best sounding language I know of and I love its lyrical and doublesensing abilities even if I can´t use it that well.

... BTW, want to see what I wrote for my current session last week? Here is "Down There".

Hmmm yeah ( good start, innit? heh )
Some-how yes
I - know
Down there

( choir )
Sup-port mafia
Nice un-cles
All the - way trust
En-gaged for you
De-mo-cracy frank

Thoughts so close-by
Some-times yeah
Things take shape deep
Down there
Where fool chills out

Up here real time
Got to deal
Real life like mine
White bread or rolls
Marla s´got new flame

Some way things go by
Bye bye
Go by

( choir again )
Sup-port mafia
Nice un-cles
All the - way trust
En-gaged for you
De-mo-cracy frank


Probably weird language, but I have an excuse as being foreigner, and it took only ~ an hour.

There is an immanent difference between moral and ethics ( although even professors of philosophy sometimes seem not to know about this very important particular ) independent from language in use.

To try it in a short form: moral is based on a none-understanding, adapted way. ( Mainly build by religious and governing instances, dealing on remote association and on principle basing on none-conclusive connections.)

Ethics ground on association with the object in mind free of syncretism.

It would take too mayn words to explain the use of moral and how comes, but here is a little example to give a rough imagination of what it is about.

Proposed somebody would be going into a lake for swimming and let his watch on his blanket at the shore.

Now, say there would somebody else be passing the blanket with that watch and considering to steal the watch or not.
As the ideas of a moral person are not grown on himself he would be considering that if caught at stealing he would be ashamed and maybe also punished.
Whether he steals or not will be depending on how much he fears the shame and the punishment, on the value of the watch and how chances should be at that moment to be caught.

On the other hand, if someone would pass and not steal, because being ethically educated and thinking on corresponding princips, his decisision would be an authentic, inner one. He might be aware of the advantage the watch could bring when grabbed for free, but as he cannot be sure if the damage done would be bigger than the profit he prefers to leave it to the owner undependently of the chances.

This just as a try to explain, if you are interested to find out on whys and wheres there is mindblowing literature about this. ( seriously, not cynically meant )

Greets,

Ruphus
Old 23rd April 2003
  #804
Lives for gear
 

Ruphus,

At some point, I'd like to disuss this with you off list, since it would take some time to harmonize our terminology.

But in a nutshell, your definition of the terms "ethics" and "morality" are not the same as mine.

The underlying principles you describe in your illustration, I completely understand you on, but what those are called and why is where we miss each other.

FWIW, the foundation of true Christianity, as I understand it, is that a person is transformed, by love, not fear, into a person who not only loves God, but is just as importantly compelled by their own heart to love other people as much as they love themselves. Imagine the world that kind of living would give us.

The browbeating and endless guilt dispensing part is an unfortunate, human innovation. Jesus himself had little use for the overly religious people of his day. All along, that type has been about controlling others through rules and guilt. That sucks. What sucks worse than that is that I'm afraid I have been one of those people myself at times in my own life.

I'd like to go off about how lame all the other bad religious stuff is, but I'm afraid at this point in my life I've become too familiar with my own foibles to do a proper job of it anymore.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 23rd April 2003
  #805
Lives for gear
 

You may ask, how can I find the time post this much verbage? And why?

Simple.

There is a looming and impending deadline for a record I'm producing. So, naturally, I'm escaping as often as possible for the last two weeks, waiting for the necessary volcano of angst to build to the proper level before rushing through to completion.

You have to sneak up on these things. This requires nearly continuous distraction to do properly.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 23rd April 2003
  #806
RE mixing - "waiting for the necessary volcano of angst to build to the proper level before rushing through to completion."





Fantstic turn of phrase! - I like that! I can only start mixing under those sort of conditions as well! Can I reccomend chinese food followed by espresso in this situation? The combo of MSG & caffeine helps build up an excelent cresendo of nail biteing angst that ensures the uttmost "fear" while making your 'walk of death' up to the console to finally commence work.

Have a nice late lunch!

Old 23rd April 2003
  #807
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT


There is a looming and impending deadline for a record I'm producing. So, naturally, I'm escaping as often as possible for the last two weeks, waiting for the necessary volcano of angst to build to the proper level before rushing through to completion.
That's me now, except replace record by film.

I have never been so distracted.

Deadlines don't work on these things! The only thing that can work is running out of time, starting finally in earnest with no time left, and then panicking your way past the deadline with the excuse that there was too much to do.

If only I could get that panicly feeling at the beginning of projects then I may have more of the time that I'm always saying I haven't got.

What a contradictory lot we are. For proof read this thread.
Old 23rd April 2003
  #808
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

I just laughed my head off reading your descriptions of how the mix comes to fruit. heh heh

I for my part play in another league, having still a long way to go.
I would already panic right away in the moment of start. That´s definitly the only part where I´m faster than you guys.

Brian, while I first admitedly thought what an idiot would be sitting there behind the other site of the screen, you ol´redneck have become sympathic to me, because there slowly arised the impression that you are on principle willing to find out, which for me is what counts.
And what earns my respect is that you care to feed your inner source with facts ( or at least what seems out there as such to get ).


Quote:
What sucks worse than that is that I'm afraid I have been one of those people myself at times in my own life.

As long as we are aware of being prone to subjectivity development can happen. I too try to remember the countless errors of the past to keep conscious about the difficult approach in direction to objectivitiy.
( Now, just let us lock you into a cage over a hotplate and tease you with stinging nettles and coherences to make you see the fatal impact of what you defend. )

I expected that you would not agree about my explanation on moral and ethics, as it might not appear catchy for most who first time hear this.

What you mentioned is the ideal image, while what I meant is the practice. I quoted science.

I hope I could have infected you at least with a microscopic seed of doubt about this item. Time and thoughts could then maybe add roots to it.

Shall the stinging nettle grow.

;o)

Ruphus
Old 24th April 2003
  #809
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Hooray!
Only musicians know the whereabouts of Saddam!

http://www.albawaba.com/headlines/Th...=entertainment
Old 28th April 2003
  #810
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

well....now it's looking as if there is factual written evidence of direct links between Al Qeada and Iraq. Also, looks like one of Britian's politicians
(the one with the biggest mouth; opposing Action in Iraq) was on Saddam's payrole.
Doesn't suprise me in the least.
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