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Old 14th April 2003
  #721
Lives for gear
 

I think it's just rhetoric to persuade them not to give asylum to Saddam's henchmen, which I do believe they are doing.

Stiil, time for us to to chill a little, IMO.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 14th April 2003
  #722
Gear Nut
 
DigiGeek's Avatar
 

Great thread guys. Here's my .02


‘When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.’

That quote from Edmund Burke in ‘Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents’ has, in general use, come to be delivered as:

‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’

Which ever version you prefer, the message is the same: evil will, therefore good must.

Many don't agree with the way GW has handled this action, looking back to the initial diplomacy through the current state of affiars in Iraq and forward to what the administration has planned after the war is ended. I for one did not vote for Bush and come election time, will most likely vote against him.

Regardless, I believe the greater good is being served here. Nobody who cares about the lives of others wants war, yet there comes a time when good people need to act and serve the greater good. Are innocent lives being lost? Yes. But the lives being lost now pale in comparison to the lives taken by Saddam's regime. Over 5000 children under the age of 5 were dying each month under the tyrrany of the Baath party, despite billions of dollars in food and medicine being delivered via the UN oil for food program, for example. It is also well documented that women were routinely raped and tortured to keep their men from speaking out against the party, and men women and children were subjected to horrors such as chemical baths and human meat grinders.

No country that claims to uphold the priciples of freedom, justice and humanity should be capable of sitting idly by while atrocities such as this are being committed if said country is capable of intervening.

The question isn't why are the US and UK in Iraq, the question should be what took so long and why aren't we doing something about the other genocidal dictators around the world?

Did we arm Bin Laden and Saddam during the cold war? Yes. We also armed West Germany and France. The difference is the latter countries have not turned these weapons against our allies and/or thier own people.

Yes it would have been nice to have a consensus in the U.N. but the U.N. is historically inept in this regard, as it was designed to be.

The debate over disarming Saddam Hussein’s Iraq is hardly the first crisis to raise questions about the ability of the U.N. to face down aggression. During the Cold War, the U.N.’s ability to enhance the security of the international system was nearly paralyzed by the rival political systems that marked that era.

Again and again during the 1990s, the U.N. appeared helpless to meet “unsanctioned” aggressions in places like Rwanda, Liberia, the Horn of Africa and, especially, in the Balkans. The reasons for this were two-fold. Firstly, it reflected disagreements among the major powers on how to address conflicts and, particularly, over the legality and wisdom of intervening in civil conflicts raging inside the border of a sovereign member state.

Secondly, and more significantly, it reflected the inherent limitations of the institution. As a voluntary association of sovereign and equal states, the U.N. is at the service of each member. In effect, it cannot take sides, but must await a consensus of its members. In Bosnia and again in Kosovo, the U.S. and a coalition of like-minded states under the NATO umbrella bypassed the U.N. and initiated hostilities against Serbia, similarly to what the U.S. and U.K. have done in Iraq.

GW characterized the inability of the U.N. to take action on Iraq as a failure of will, and many agree. Indeed, taking the final step needed to enforce its resolutions always has been the U.N.’s greatest weakness. But it is a weakness deliberately built into the U.N. structure. As Secretary of State Dean Acheson noted in 1951, the U.N. was “not something apart from its members. Its strength has no sources independent of the strength supplied by those who belong to it and are willing to back it up.”

The difference this time is that some members of NATO, specifically, Germany and France had more to gain by not supporting the war, all of which has been covered fairly well up to this point so I won't go into it.

Ultimately, the world is a better place when good folk stand against evil. It is never the easy choice, but it is the only choice we have to make for the sake of those in need.
Old 14th April 2003
  #723
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Yes it would have been nice to have a consensus in the U.N. but the U.N. is historically inept in this regard, as it was designed to be.
The UN has the only power that nations wish to put into it.

I think that if the world is meant to be a better place, it would be thru UN.

US found very convinient to bash UN, as France found very convinient to say it would use its veto (as US did before against France, historicaly).

What I mean is that UN is not a powerfull entity if you do not decide to give it strenght, and that mean to comply or not to resolutions when it suits you.

The US plan was not in that matter to show that the "free" world would stand firmly against dictatures in the middle east, but more to show US determination in setting a new order in the area : the american order.

The proof of that, is that GWB didn't wish to address to Syria thru UN, he chose to do it alone.

I'm very concerned by all the implications right now. I'm pretty sure that US will go for Syria very soon (I don't buy Iran for some reasons like the strong people intern opposition to the Aiatolahs and the military technical difficulties that the invasion would imply)

I don't say that Syria administration is clean, but I can't see the point of bombing it either.

Go figure

malice
Old 14th April 2003
  #724
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Why I think Husseian is still alive

Why I think Husseian is still alive:

A. Propaganda dude was spouting nonsense to distract from Hussein having already fled.

B. As soon as Hussein was dead everybody associated with him would pop up and say "Oh, we always hated that guy. He made us do that stuff.", in order to avoid prosecution.

C. He's likely not in Tikrit either. They're capitulating far too quickly and easily. Those are the "suckers" who actually believed in Saddam. Another ruse by him to buy more time, at the expense of other people.

I figure he's in Syria or Russia at this point, either way, probably destined to live out his life in luxury somewhere. Somebody cut him a deal, likely for big cash he stole from the Iraqi people and stashed outside the country. A pity. He deserves much worse.

Anyway, that's what I think (like you just had to know).


Regards,
Brian T
Old 15th April 2003
  #725
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For those who have seen fit to equate George Bush and Saddam Hussein.....

Look here. I'm afraid that there will be many more of these stories. It's heartbreaking.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 15th April 2003
  #726
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malice's Avatar
 

You noticed that that reunion of local middle east arab countries that Saudis called ended in a proposition to boycott paiement of their oil in $ ????

It is not an headline ( that IS puzzeling, btw)

We spoke about that eventuality in some previous posts ...

malice
Old 15th April 2003
  #727
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
The UN has the only power that nations wish to put into it.


malice
But it is nothing more than flatulence, used to have commode, extremly overpaid do-nothing-posts ready for deserving friends from political and industrial secenery, for their pastime served by hosts of again well paid servants.
They meet to obligatory report what they have been told to say and afterwards they go all together to state expense dine in the "Le Périgord" restaurant. Every idiot could do that job.

Only for last year the UN had a budget of 1,15 billion dollars. For just 191 countries 37,000 people are sticking on the payroll, hanging around on landscapes of build space. Alone in NY over 72,000 square meters in addition to locations in Wien, Nairobi, Geneva and more.

A paradise for secured employment with luxury privileges and almost obligative connection building for further income and career on cost of their home taxe payers, while the few there who are indeed enthusiastic about improving world wide conditions are sabotaged and isoltated and if getting too loud just kicked out of their seats.

How can you ever expect the UN to come near to what it officially is there for, as long as it is a nothing but a feeding station for special circles?

Not that I am not appreciating any kind of UN even if it is only good for officials unity in the smallest and most hypocritical sense, but if you´d want it to become a real institution it would need to become unattractive for the people who are send there at times.

It would need adapting privileges to a resonable level, so that only personalities would be attract who´s aim is the real matter. What anyway is the meaning to make people rich who are supposed to be engaged for idealistic matters?!

And don´t you tell me exaggerated expenses for those would be necessary cause of a representative entrance, - we are not on the vodoo magic of african tribe chiefs meetings neither about european historical feudal kings competition anymore.

The same goes for the odd argument politicians would have to be highly payed to make them imune against bribery, which is even more ridiculous.

And why we are at modern kigdoms behaviour: If you want to understand what I mean check out what there is prepared and to be costs for the G-8 meeting early June in around the Geneva lake. The historical travel expenditure and abound of sheiks and sultans is nothing compared to the bumtious waste of our emperiors.

Not that it is inevitable to end as such, but if it was and those puppets you defend all the time, in sight of such incredible extravagance were oh so concerned about their states budgets they would just conference electronically. Period.
Practicable and easier to secure than what they are causing with their usual happenings. Sparing hundreds of millions bucks in the same time.
And it should let feel them much better personally as modest types.

But they just arn´t.

I know this very likely can´t make you think and less even feel a principle. Much more severe facts can´t.
I was just in a mood to talk to myself.
Thanks for the space to spoil.

Ruphus
Old 15th April 2003
  #728
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
For those who have seen fit to equate George Bush and Saddam Hussein.....

Look here. I'm afraid that there will be many more of these stories. It's heartbreaking.


Regards,
Brian T


I feel sick.
Old 15th April 2003
  #729
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Messiah's Avatar
 

I don't doubt that there has probably been some terrible atrocities in Iraq under Saddam, but to play devil's advocate a second here, the article Brian gave the link to contained it's most disturbing imagery under the heading of Torture Tales. At this point they're still tales and I would full expect there to be a lot of tales to come out at this time, time will reveal facts.
Also, there was;-
Quote:
Most of the five-story building has been demolished by U.S.-led airstrikes. Steel beams and parts of concrete walls cover the floors. Furniture, files and pictures have been burned beyond recognition.
This keeps a lot of the accounts in the article free of fact....for now at least.

We had a similar jump to conclusion the other day when Brian posted a link from the Telegraph about Baghdad's ties with Moscow. Again this was from ONE source and as yet no ther sources have verified this.
I just think this is a very messy time for true factual journalism, it seems that even the most respected of sources can easily take their findings totally out of context and grant them far more relevance than they deserve.

As the dust settles I'm sure fact and fiction will start to disperse to give us all a clearer picture....
Old 15th April 2003
  #730
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Oh yes, and who hasn't had their genitals prodded by electrodes at least once?













dfegad
Old 16th April 2003
  #732
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I actually began to go back through this whole thread, as a sort of evaluation of how I handled myself, along with you guys as well.

There are some compelling points made all around, a few poigniant moments, a bit of unversal wisdom here and there, and of course some pretty funny statements, looking back now with 20/20 hindsight.

I'd like to see a few people collect some of the more memorable quotes, now that the fighting is pretty much over.

OK, you must admit this string is funny:

Posted by Plus6:

Jules,

When the people of Iraq are dancing in the street and hugging American soldiers after they are freed, I will be looking forward to your "European style" Thankyou.



Followed by:

Posted by Jules:

I will rush to thank every one if this whole barrel of monkeys doesnt start off world war 3, rest assured! The old 'European short memory" will no doubt come in usefull!



followed by:


Posted by Steve Smith:

You must be joking... Dancing in the street and hugging American Soliders? I will be shocked if that ever happens.



How shocking!

To be fair, I'll have to admit that the Halliburton thing is looking pretty unsavory at this point. That's disappointing, and if it really turns out to be an inside deal, I expect it will get busted pretty hard by the Democrats around election time, which would be fine by me.

There are some great, quotable lines to be seen as well. I'm rather happy with this one:

Have you considered that crap, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder?

Regards,
Brian T



Anyway, this thread really reads like a journey, and I'll have to say that I expect it was one of the most civilized disagreements about such a polarized subject in the history of the internet. It took on a life of it's own (740 posts to date!) and in the end, really did challenge some of my preconceptions. My compliments to (nearly) all involved.

Anybody else have some favorite lines?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 16th April 2003
  #733
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malice's Avatar
 

yes :

Quote:
My compliments to (nearly) all involved.
Who's nearly ?

on a serious side, I would have to read all the posts back, I will, but later.
I might print all this and read it on a train or a plane, later.

I really liked your statement about the reasons you were on that side, it was a great post

gotta read all that AGAIN

malice
Old 17th April 2003
  #734
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Well you can sweat the details....but Malice, 5down1up, Jules, et al...your analysis appears to have been far from the mark. Few coalition and civillian casualties...no morass...and the Iraqi people are on the way to being way better off.
The French are learning that making an enemy of the U.S. isn't cheap.
Old 17th April 2003
  #735
See how things pan out over the next year or so...

145 US dead, 43 UK dead, plenty of bomb damaged, dead, injured civilians, hospitals overflowing infact, dont you see the news?
Old 17th April 2003
  #736
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
See how things pan out over the next year or so...

145 US dead, 43 UK dead, plenty of bomb damaged, dead, injured civilians, hospitals overflowing infact, dont you see the news?
Yes, Jules, and those numbers, along with the Iraqi dead and injured make me sad.

But what I think we are in the process of finding out from a number of different sources (including CNN's admission about keeping quiet), is that Saddam was even uglier than we knew. I think the passion shown when the statues came down was an indicator of that.

My point is, don't you think as many or more Iraqi civilians would have died or been injured in Iraq this year, by Saddam even if the US/UK had not shown up? I mean, there is no way to know exactly, but I don't think that's a huge stretch. There are many thousands of Iraqis looking for their missing loved ones right now, who were taken by Saddam and never seen again. They just found a shallow mass grave of about 3,000 in North Iraq.

I would suggest that this war will ultimately save far more Iraqi lives in the future than it has cost in these three weeks. And that's ignoring the hundreds of thousands dead at Saddam's hand over the last 20 years.

The only difference is, we knew about and largely saw the direct effects of these war deaths. That's what happens in a free country. It has to sadden us, or we are in trouble. But that knowledge does not make the 100 times as many deaths, done over decades in secret at the hand of Hussein, any less grevious.

Earlier in the thread, I said war is only justified when it saves more in human suffering than it costs in human suffering. And I said it was too soon to know if that would be the case here. I agree with you that we will have to wait a bit to see. But there is surely the possibility that in the long term, this war will have saved more suffering than it cost. I hope so.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 17th April 2003
  #737
"Weapons of mass distruction" was uttered at every junture as Bush & Blair sold us this war. There cant be many around that didnt't become totally sick of hearing this phrase. So far NONE have been found and now, wouldnt you know it, "liberating" Iraq is the 'new original reason' for the war!

This is a TOTAL about face. We were lied to and fed constant bulsh!t to back this war denial of this fact is idiotic.

There was a left over Bush senior agenda for the war, Bush junior spun us a yarn to get it achived.
Old 17th April 2003
  #738
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Very likely currently reported numbers are not correct. Nothing easier than manipulating while the only ones who are able at all to count the dead are the US Army forces themselves.
The averge time distance until real details come through is ~ 15 years, sometimes more sometimes less.
But even later correct numbers will hardly able to be raised. Not lastly for the fact that you can´t count where e.g. over 30,000 flight missions ensured the turnover of at least 15,000 precisions bombs, around 8,000 unsteered ones and where also 750 "Cruise Missiles" where fired within no time.

Today though I read one thing I liked if you can like something about war. For limiting harm on civil Iraqies the US Air Force this time also used bombs filled only with concrete, so that they should have distroyed military objects by their pure kinetic energy without explosions.

Now, for the future I would have another wish of what could be considered as circumspect.
If they would start media propaganda by broadcasting over Iran from the Iraqies side of the border to help encrease the ground for that f***** mullah sh** to being pissed away by revolting population.

But should they take military action there too, the lightning shall hit them on the toilet and leave nothing over than a drop of sticky mineral oil.

Ruphus
Old 17th April 2003
  #739
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
The French are learning that making an enemy of the U.S. isn't cheap.
LMFBO heh

on a serious side : recorderman, have you got a clue about who is the leading commercial power in this crasy World, mmmmh ?

malice
Old 17th April 2003
  #740
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
"Weapons of mass distruction" was uttered at every junture as Bush & Blair sold us this war. There cant be many around that didnt't become totally sick of hearing this phrase. So far NONE have been found and now, wouldnt you know it, "liberating" Iraq is the 'new original reason' for the war!

This is a TOTAL about face. We were lied to and fed constant bulsh!t to back this war denial of this fact is idiotic.
Now Jules, calm down. These are two seperate issues, and I am as aware of both as you are.

As far as "WMD" being the rationale for this war. You are correct in that. The justification was the WMD, not liberation. And to attempt to revise history and make liberation the initial issue is unacceptable. I have said as much myself, if you care to read my posts.

If they do not find any WMD, then again as I've already said, their credibility will suffer and they will pay in the next election. I have not forgotten where this all started and many other Americans will not either, come election time. But there is still the quite real possibility they may find them, well hidden from inspectors. Of course, if they do, closeminded people will say they were "planted" conveniently forgetting they've been honest about the reported "finds" so far being wrong.

If they find none, it will come back to haunt them.

OTOH, even if Bush's motives turn out to have been complete garbage and there is no credit or honor due him whatesoever; even then, "accidentally" could it not be that the people of Iraq will be better off? And without necessarily crediting anyone with noble motive, is it not possible that we can be happy for those people if that is the case?

Jules, it seems to me that you cannot get past what could be disingenuous motive to the second part, namely, what is the current reality for the people of Iraq. I attributed no motive in my post and gave no props to Bush or the US. I merely pointed out that I think the people of Iraq likely have an much brighter future at this point.

But that will not eradicate my memory of why this was begun and noting whether or not that was the truth. We should know in a month or two.

So that is my sentiment about Bush and the WMD. But whatever the case may ultimately be regarding that does not preclude me from looking at the physical reality of Iraq today and believing it will be a better place to live than it has been in 20 years. I don't see incongruity with seperating those issues. Do you?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 17th April 2003
  #741
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5down1up's Avatar
 

hi guys , i was off for a few days ...

the boards still rolling

i am glad the "official" war is over .
i am sad about the pictures tv stations spread all over the world.
i agree that saddam would have probably killed a lot more people compared to the allies attacks and theres no discussion about
" has saddam deserved it " ...
but i am still upset about which tools our goverments choose to convience us that this war is in our interrests.
you have to agree on , that the whole story was nothing else than a simple LIE , brought to us by those who reign our homelands.
its not them who should decide , its the people ... and reality showed again , that the interrest and actions of our leaders has very less in common with the most peoples interrests.
if they take the right direction to explain , people will still dig any idea ... and thats very scary.

P E A C E
Old 17th April 2003
  #742
Gear Addict
 

Hospitals are toast, no power, little water, aid organizations warning of possibilities of epidemics and mobs in the streets looting ererything they see, Red cross workers killed in cross fire. A foriegn power debating who will administer your country, and the candidates put forward include Racists and bank fraud artists. Yep freedom's just peachy if you're Iraqi.
Dubya and Cheney and friends pocketed a cool 174 billion of your money on trumped up charges and you're talking how much better off the Iraqis are 'cause a few guys were dancing around a statue. Brian I understand you are genuinely happy for the future possiblities for the Iraqi people, and your posts have been tempered by that, but ah recorderman, you better try and get some fresh air boy the smog is starting to rot your brain.
There was a better way and it would have come to pass with UN and world support, in fact I think Dubya and his band of thugs jumped the gun because they saw their opportunity to steal your tax dollars evaporating away. But some of you can think of no better response than "I guess we showed you guys and now you'll pay the price for not supporting us"
It's dangerous enough to have a a rogue band of thugs threatening the world but to have them backed up by twits who revel in shouting "we're number 1" makes them downright dangerous to humanity. This is war, recorderman, not some ****ing football game and if you're dumb enough to believe what George and the boys tell you and strut around believing that America is the cock of the walk and that's a good thing, I feel sorry for you.
It all comes out in the end, like the lies about drug tests for american athletes at the LA games. In Canada we dealt with the issue by holding hearings dis qualifying athletes and coaches and setting up the toughest drug testing in the world, state side you swept it under the rug and Carl Lewis held self rigtheous news conferences about how clean he was. And we hear today that he had tested positive along with maybe as many as 100 american athletes and your olympic committee knew it and hid the truth. Is it any wonder that the world questions some american actions?Take care anyway Logan
Old 17th April 2003
  #743
Mindreader
 
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It is far too early to know the effects that this war will have on the region.

No one can predict what will happen.

It is a gamble. Speculation.

I'm not sure if you should bomb on such a scale speculatively.

I'm not sure you should invade a country without good reason. Changing what you said the reason was actually means you had no good reason. If they find Elvis instead of chemical weapons they'll say they were looking for him all along.

This war made sense for some reason known only to those at the top.

It's been said many times that it's a great thing that Saddam's gone. Until we know what is replacing him (and lets not forget that regime change can be replaced by chaos, torture replaced by death by civil unrest) we should hold back on saying 'It's great isn't it'

I could walk into a school and shoot all the teachers 'cos the pupils don't like them. And then watch the place turn into 'Lord Of The Flies'. It's ALL relative.

Let's give it a year and see if it's working then. If we are still watching reporting on it that is - heard much about Afghanistan lately?

I am optomistic for the future of the Iraqi people. But that's all I can be.

No one knows what is going to happen. And actually, it's only just started.

If the US could take out Mugabe now instead of screwing around with people they choose not to like for political interests then perhaps the administration could use the 'moral crusade' card.

But for crying out loud. Naive?

My problem with a lot of this is that many people don't even want to IMAGINE what the truth could be about the coalition's motives. And when it comes to patriotism this thing has got out of control scared people into submissive thinking for fear of repraisal.

This whole thing has thrown up many issues at home. I fear that the Amercian psyche is in retraction, led by media and its administration. It's a shift. And it's been engineered. Here in UK, it's more subtle. But there.

Watching that statue come down was OK till I realised it was the only image shown on tv for a day.

Now we've got that poor kid who had his arms blown off that we're 'helping'. Well, I'm glad we helped liberate him. I'm sure he's very grateful.

This is the future we were warned about.

The definition of BAD MAN is also subjective, and so is REGIME.
Old 18th April 2003
  #744
Lives for gear
 

Let me get this straight.

First, there is unending doom and gloom prophesied about the war itself. Both before and after the shooting started, lots of "It doesn't look good", "we might be starting WWIII", "Iraqis hugging Americans...no way that will ever happen", etc. Come on, let's be even handed here about aknowledging that. Don't make me go back and quote you guys.

So the actual war was over in 3 weeks, with far fewer casualties than many predicted, and the Iraqis were much happier to get rid of Hussein than many thought they would be. It almost looks like that bothered some people around here, if you didn't know better. The statue coming down was certainly not the only picture on TV that day, but they did show it a bunch. Hey, how many times did we see the Berlin Wall come down on TV? It's news.

In any event, I think it's safe to say that it's hardly WWIII so far. In fact, it could be that the Middle East takes a step towards peace instead. I mean, the status quo has sucked for some time, maybe this will break it. Sharon seems to just recently be slowly migrating towards some better ideas, IMO. And I'm not seeing the hordes of enraged terrorists attacking the West en masse. Didn't we have some of that predicted to be imminent here as well? North Korea, the US and China will sit down in Bejing next week to talk about a resolution of that heretofore acerbic disagreement.

And so now we have a new round of negativity about the post war scenario. The same people who were the most negative about the war itself. And I find myself in the position of hoping their negativity is wrong again. First, I was naive to think the Iraqis might actually be happy to see the coalition get rid of Saddam and to believe that the war might not drag on for long.

And now, apparently, I'm naive to believe Iraq will become a better place for Iraqis to live in the aftermath of this war. Someone brought up Afghanistan. Maybe you should ask the women who can now legally leave their houses and be taught to read without breaking the law and being harshly punished if they think Afghanistan is better or worse off now than under the Taliban. IMO, the argument that Afghanistan is not better off now is a stupid one and impossible to defend.

I think a few people need to ask themselves if they have a selectively negative memory about some things. Things that impinge upon their pre-decided world view. It seems to me that it steals some of the joy from life.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 18th April 2003
  #745
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
[. IMO, the argument that Afghanistan is not better off now is a stupid one and impossible to defend.

IMO, I think a few people need to ask themselves if they have a selectively negative memory about some things. Things that impinge upon their pre-decided world view. It seems to me that it steals some of the joy from life.


Regards,
Brian T [/B]
Brian
Niave, isn't the right word, selective viewing of the facts is closer, misinformed may be applicable. Afghanistan is a mess, there is no freedom no school no food and no safety. Your Government installed a puppet regime in Kabul which can't even leave the city, the rest of the country has disolved into pockets of warlords, many worse than the taliban. The reason for this is because your government squeezed out the northern colalition, because they had been allied with the Russians, they were perhaps the only bunch who could have united the country. The Russians were pushed out by the Taliban whom you armed to fight the Russian allied afghan government. Your government is directly responsible for the misery of large amounts of the afghan population simply because you didn't like the politics of the government that was in power. You are still bombing innocent civilians in afghanistan, it happened only a week ago.
The war is not over in Iraq, there are still people dying there, because your government wished to act alone to fill it's pockets, instead of waiting for the rest of the world. Now you are stopping the people who have experience in delivering aid and food to Iraq from doing the job so you can again install people who are sympathetic to american foriegn policy.
You have allowed the cultural treasures of Iraq to be looted and most of the civil structure to be demolished when you could have stopped it, you are in short committing, according to the Geneva convention, war crimes in Iraq. It is very clear in the articles that an Invading force must police the territory and prevent the type of stuff we have seen in the last week.
And yet you want to be seen as the good guy and some of you ( and I exclude you from this criticism) are content to gloat as the winners. The story changes every day as to your purposes and inclinations. The chief weapons inspector stated today that they should be allowed back into Iraq to provide reliable information about possible weapons. What do you suppose is the chance of that happening?
Your actions were wrong in the first place and they are only getting worse, your not going to get any credit for that from me. Get out now and let the UN and Iraqis deal with the chaos you have created.
I heard an interview with a Kurdish woman today stating that American forces are working on protecting oil fields and increasing the quantity of oil pumped , but there is no power in the hospitals, please don't sprain a shoulder patting yourself on the back. Take care Logan
Old 18th April 2003
  #746
Lives for gear
 

Logan, rather than dive into the specifics of your post at this point, may I ask a question instead?

Could you point me to a positive statement you have made about any subject, at any time, in this thread? That is in large part my problem here. Unceasing criticism of any and every turn of events, without mitigation.

To me, it seems disingenuous to only note the negative at all times, as though allowing that any good whatesoever could come from a course of action you disagree with would be a weakness.

So it is good and proper for me to acknowledge that Bush may have had poor or dishonest motives, or that the US government has made it's share of mistakes, etc, but for many of you it seems that to acknowledge any good that may come from any US action whatsoever would be an admission of some strange concept of defeat.

I do not understand that.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 18th April 2003
  #747
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

How about your sight being blue-eyed? ( if this is correct English )

There have been much more arguments than those that you pick as been proven wrong. You have left out and ignored close to 100% of what has been brought in and repeat those few points now appearantly or even really proved wrong.

You think it a good argument that there have been killed as many in only three weeks as Saddam allegedly would had killed in years. You ignore what it means when all that has come down which I e.g. have listed some posts above.

The invironmental impact that those bombs alone have what poisioning is concerned stays plain outside of your comments.


Left out the ethical question what it means to excessively bomb out an enemy that you have let disarmed before. Which for me means dubious strategy first and unnecessary violation secondly.

You have talked about regretting soldiers who would be suffering to have killed families in cars, while you ignore your own landsmen who lecture about their experience as soldiers in the Iraq war before, in Vietnam and elsewhere.
Fact is that fellows who have been trained all the time before to kill return frustrated when having not shot some "moving objects." This time the frustration of some American soldiers even showed in a way that some took it even out on corpses which they mangled.
So much about "accidental violation" against civilists.

No, Brian, it is no secret that soldiers develop differently after several typical psychological phenomens of war have made them killing for fun. Some indeed regret, a few even get psychotic from twinges and others eperience it still as fun and love to repeat.

On a lower level BTW, most kids know what I´m talking about. When you shot with an air pistole at dead objects after a while it becomes boring. Very simple, as silly as it is.

That is why some pilots bomb buildings they shouldn´t, like that one where the reporter was visible standing on the roof and other cases, that is why some guys had their fun to overoll civil cars with tanks and that more likely than anything other is why they shot at cars.

And another common phenomenon for you: The more moralistic and less ethic the invironment you come from the worse you get when put in a legitimated situation with power over others and with as much as no fear from consequences for your responsibility.


You say if the false claim under which has been attact would be proven it would be payed for by selection. Do you really think lying and cheating in such a severe question is enough pursued just by a switch of a character in a seat?

And further would it be a change on principle already when there would be sitting just another guy from one of those two parties presented to you?
Would it mean dicissions then would not anymore be settled by cash suckers, but to the interests of American majority / population?

And whether it counts for you or not, it will be a fact for that country which for you is nothing but "freed" that the wealth that will be exportetd out of that country in the future will hardly be seen by the people there by even a fraction.
It would be nothing but the usual procedure.

I call that "freeing" for exploitation.

Show that you would seriously be trying to take all facts into consideration and those people who steel themselves joy from their lifes would be somewhat happier to be able to take you for serious.

Ruphus
Old 18th April 2003
  #748
"If they do not find any WMD, then again as I've already said, their credibility will suffer and they will pay in the next election. I have not forgotten where this all started and many other Americans will not either, come election time. But there is still the quite real possibility they may find them, well hidden from inspectors. Of course, if they do, closeminded people will say they were "planted" conveniently forgetting they've been honest about the reported "finds" so far being wrong.

If they find none, it will come back to haunt them."

Brian, it's such a hot issue that Hans Blick commented that weapons inspectors had better be in there ASAP to be along side the US army 'discovering stuff', or the credibility of the US will be severely tarnished Undeniably there is a climate of global mistrust of the US.

"If they find none" If they find little?

IMHO, presently a thimblefull of ANYTHING dangerous will do for the hawks urgent PR needs. As you put it Blair & Bush need them to be found to keep their jobs.

The positive side?

Dunno yet, Sadam gone is cool but as far as liberated Iraq goes, this week, British media has been concentrated on a boy flown out of Bagdad to Kuwait (because of overrun hospitals) that had both his arms blown off by coalition bombs, looted meuseums, burned out libraries and no fresh water. So I will get back to you on that one!

Old 18th April 2003
  #749
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
How about your sight being blue-eyed? ( if this is correct English )

There have been much more arguments than those that you pick as been proven wrong. You have left out and ignored close to 100% of what has been brought in and repeat those few points now appearantly or even really proved wrong.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe if you stopped criticising just long enough to devote only one or two sentences of one post to acknowledge any of those few points you mention, just in the interest of fairness, it would be awfully decent of you?

I'm afraid we see the world so differently, it's hard to connect.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 18th April 2003
  #750
Gear Addict
 

Brian
What has positive got to do with anything? That's a complete red herring. I have only made a few points here, the main one being that the US is currently governed by a bunch of thugs who are using this war to fill their own pockets, at the expense of the American people. I have also indicated that, not only were they theives but, they weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer either and that made them even more dangerous. The collary, to that main point, is that this is wrong, and can't be justified by platitudes about freedom, that are obviously more PR than truth.
I have also indicated that there have been many such groups of thugs in american history, and a good many of the murderous regimes in the world owe their existance to these aforementioned thugs. Certainly not all, but a good many.
I also stated that I did not hate americans nor blame the general american populus for this outrageous behaviour by their elite. It seems to me that you made a valiant attempt to convince me that this view was wrong and that the american people supported this behaviour, I don't know if the implication of that argument was that I should blame the american people and perhaps hate them, but I didn't bite on that red herring.
In fact I've tried to keep the conversation civil and respectful of the posters here, however I have no respect for Bush and Cheney and their actions, which I regard as murder and theivery.
The only time I have been uncivil to a poster here was to reply to the belicos statements of recorderman.
If you're looking for a feel good discussion about warmongering then we should call it a day 'cause I see nothing positive about the actions of the US in this situation. I believe that Saddam would have been gone long ago if you had not propped him up and I believe he would have been dealt with by a true coalition without dropping bombs on civilians and destroying the infrastructure of the country. Incidently all of this would have been easier to accomplish if Daddy Bush had not sold out the main opposition during the Gulf war fiasco. I see nothing positive about any of this. Take care Logan
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