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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 11th April 2003
  #691
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malice's Avatar
 

Midland Morgan,

We're not on PSW, and I promissed Jules not to swear anymore.

So I won't flame you, instead ...

As a proof of my extreme civility, I gladly appologies if I offended you, or any of your family member, or friend if I ever crossed the line while expressing my feelings over such estimable members of your country gvt, and that include Mr Paul Wolfowitz if by all means he is related to you, or your familly, or your friends... Sorry.

In return, would you have the curiosity of reading some of my posts here, you might learn that I'm generaly :

- Nice to people
- Not anti-american
- Rather honest as far as admiting when I'm wrong publicaly


That would be time saving for all of us.

malice
Old 11th April 2003
  #692
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I really have to extend a little my point of view regarding Iraqi people :

My conclusion regarding how they react to this new freedom they now posess is that it looks like for the moment, total chaos is the only thing that rule the city of Bagdaad:

I see people destroy Saddam portrait and statues, I see hatry toward america, I see people looting shops and assaulting their brothers for different reasons, I see people suffering from either side actions, I see men and women crying and not knowing who to believe and how to feed their children, I see the same man hailing Saddam, calling for Jihad, and later welcoming coalition troops

Don't you thing it is a little to soon to lead to conclusions about what is really happening there, right or wrong ?


malice
Old 11th April 2003
  #693
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Malice...thanks for your feedback...and apologies to you if I ruffled feathers a bit too harshly...and no, Wolfowitz is not among those I allueded to earlier.

Messaih - I have read through the posts as my system doesn't show a page 46...didn't mean to bore you...but having been away for a bit did give me a chance to see things without interfereces from previous beliefs...and apparently I failed to understand the underlying themes of some posts...again, apologies where needed...
Old 11th April 2003
  #694
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malice's Avatar
 

Midland,






this board is so civilised



malice
Old 11th April 2003
  #695
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Quote:
Originally posted by malice
I really have to extend a little my point of view regarding Iraqi people :

My conclusion regarding how they react to this new freedom they now posess is that it looks like for the moment, total chaos is the only thing that rule the city of Bagdaad:

I see people destroy Saddam portrait and statues, I see hatry toward america, I see people looting shops and assaulting their brothers for different reasons, I see people suffering from either side actions, I see men and women crying and not knowing who to believe and how to feed their children, I see the same man hailing Saddam, calling for Jihad, and later welcoming coalition troops

Don't you thing it is a little to soon to lead to conclusions about what is really happening there, right or wrong ?


malice
I am surprised that people are shocked by what's going on right now in Baghdad. It seems logical to me, in a way. Sad, but logical.

These people have been so repressed for so long, they're freaking out right now. Most of the looting and vandalism is directed at government buildings and other symbols of Saddam's regime. Is that so surprising? I really don't think we can fully appreciate what it's been like to be an Iraqi for the last 30 years.

I think what we're seeing is the pent up anger and rage at 30 years of oppression. It will pass. I think it will pass within the week. And ugly though it is, and as much as it may be regretted by the people doing it later when the damage is soberly assessed, I think it is probably cathartic on some primal level and may just be "the way things are" in any aftermath of this nature.

These people are attempting to purge their psyche of the indignity suffered, IMO. I just hope it's over ASAP.

Keep in mind that a repressive government also represses common criminals along with everyone else. Some of this is simply those people seizing an opportunity to steal until civil services are restored.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 11th April 2003
  #696
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Oh, and by the way.

Jules, thank you for those earlier words. And again, thanks also for creating a kinder, gentler forum. You have my respect for doing so.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 11th April 2003
  #697
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
I really don't think we can fully appreciate what it's been like to be an Iraqi for the last 30 years.
Just imagine having that M-F'ers face staring down at you from every street corner, your entire life, reminding you your life is ****. They are freaking out, and rightly so.

Old 11th April 2003
  #698
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Uh-oh.

I'm just putting 2 + 2 together here from the news.

1. Marines find underground nuclear storage facility near Baghdad

2. The IAEA seals, to prevent tampering with or moving the stuff, appear to have been broken

3. Geiger counters are pegging in a large area there, which they are definitely not supposed to when all is as it should be


Is there previously unknown weapons grade nuclear material there? Who knows. But there is certainly a large amount of non weapons grade nuclear material there (~1.8 tons IIRC), previously monitored by the IAEA.

What concerns me right now is, how much non weapons grade nuclear material might be missing. The idea of conventional explosive, radioactive "dirty bombs" being made from this stuff may not be as alarming as a true nuke, but still sounds plenty bad to me. Bummer if some of that stuff has gone missing. If it has, which seems likely given the above, I'm afraid that may not be the last time we see it.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 12th April 2003
  #699
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Uh-oh.


What concerns me right now is, how much non weapons grade nuclear material might be missing.
Brian T
I was thinking something similar today. As I was typing about no WMD being found in Iraq yet, I was thinking that I don't really buy that Iraq has/had no chemical weapons. So where are they? Have they been shifted to Syria? Sold to the highest bidder?

It's a bit of a scary thought.
Old 12th April 2003
  #700
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Quote:
Originally posted by hodad
I was thinking something similar today. As I was typing about no WMD being found in Iraq yet, I was thinking that I don't really buy that Iraq has/had no chemical weapons. So where are they? Have they been shifted to Syria? Sold to the highest bidder?

It's a bit of a scary thought.
Two possibilities :

- there were no WMD, and this is embarassing ...

- they exists but are no longer in Iraq, but sold to any terrorist group or to Syria : and the cure is worth than the illness ...

Great, more to come



malice
Old 12th April 2003
  #701
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Quote:
Originally posted by dbluefield
"I see people destroy Saddam portrait and statues, I see hatry toward america, I see people looting shops and assaulting their brothers for different reasons, I see people suffering from either side actions, I see men and women crying and not knowing who to believe and how to feed their children, I see the same man hailing Saddam, calling for Jihad, and later welcoming coalition troops"

Welcome to humanity. People have diffierent views and biases. Thank God I live in a country that respects those differences under the rule of law. It is not a perfect system, but yes I'm proud to be an American.

As for the looting: The last time we saw looting, like what we are seeing in Baghdad,was when the Clintons left the White House.


The problem with liberate a country that does not have organised opposition ( The Kurds are organised, but they won't move further than Mossul and Kirkoutz) is that when you take out the authority, you have to replace it rightaway. The Chaos being proportional to the time the people had suffered from the privation (of freedom).

For the moment, US soldiers are watching the riots and looting without moving a finger, without expressing any concern about what is hapening.

The only things that are guarded are the oil facilities and the minister of oil.

US should beware of that, cause soon the population will turn mad at that attitude. I saw a man today already moaning for Saddam return (as absurd as it might look). It has been two full days of madness now !

You won't be able to rebuild Iraq alone. As far as I can remember, the only event that resemble this mess was the fall of **** Germany.

It took years to bring this country back to normality.

But there are two major differences in this particular case :

1- Hitler ruled Germany for only ten years, not 30

2- You were not alone to administrate

malice
Old 12th April 2003
  #702
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
You won't be able to rebuild Iraq alone. As far as I can remember, the only event that resemble this mess was the fall of **** Germany.

It took years to bring this country back to normality.


malice
If they did the same thing in Iraq it would mean that they would let leaders in economy, adminsitration and courts return to their velvet seats.

That´s how they at least did in Germany. grudge

Ruphus
Old 12th April 2003
  #703
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Quote:
you were not alone to administrate
That is very true...because of certain political issues, the nations of US, Britain, and France were somewhat forced to allow the Soviet Union to administrate as well...we ALL know what a success that was - a 45 year cold (and more than anyone likes to admit to, a hot) war.

I honestly don't believe that any existing method of post-war reconstruction will work to satisfy everyone. Is there a war to introduce democracy to fundamentalist extremism? I really don't see Iraq relying on a great tradition of craftsmanship like the Germans have, nor a technological lust like the Japanese.

I believe Iraq's best bet will be a market-driven oil based capitalistic society...what else do they have that could be considered as a global enticement for financial transaction?

But that opens a whole new series of questions: certain political beliefs and platforms in the US and the world are looking to outlaw petroleum based combustion engines within our lifetimes...will this ideal change now, as it would dessimate the sole legitamite income for a rebuilding nation? Or, does the world instill a temporary estoppel of ecological concerns to assist another nation in developing a capitalist society?

And, there will always be those who mourn for what was, even if those previous conditions were somewhat intolerable...and there will always be those who question the plan for whatever reasons. However it turns out, it will work as long as whatever plan is allowed to do so.
Old 12th April 2003
  #704
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Midlandmorgan


But that opens a whole new series of questions: certain political beliefs and platforms in the US and the world are looking to outlaw petroleum based combustion engines within our lifetimes...will this ideal change now, as it would dessimate the sole legitamite income for a rebuilding nation? .
Call me a pessimist (or an optimist?), but I don't see the world leaving behind petroleum faster than Iraq can get back on its feet. Gas powered cars, fuel oil, petroleum based plastics, jet aircraft--none of those will leave us tomorrow. And even if we do get on the stick & reduce our consumption of petroleum, I don't think it'll go completely away ever, & any major impact from reduced consumption is at least several decades away.
Old 12th April 2003
  #705
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Still, his question is very funded. I also have always been asking myself if fox would hesitate to hunt chicken if he saw that it had a clutch with cute little eggs.

Mother Theresa at economical command.

Chrrrr

Ruphus
Old 12th April 2003
  #706
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Midlandmorgan

I believe Iraq's best bet will be a market-driven oil based capitalistic society...what else do they have that could be considered as a global enticement for financial transaction?

Millions of people with brains?

What a terrible thing to say!! You can't write Iraq off just because there's only one thing of value that you can see in it. That's really low. Believe it or not, money, greed and wealth aren't the main priorities to every culture/country outside the US, you know.
Iraq, though, basically has money in the bank with the oil, it's obvious, so if they don't get taken to the cleaners, the new government should have a good opportunity to invest in people, industry, technology, etc.. things that will see the country still strong after the oils ran out.......and all you American's have traded your 5mpg cars for Segway's!!

Iraq has it's own infastructure to rebuild, for all you know, this could lead to any numerous types of unique worldly contribution. You never know.

Iraq is the birthplace of civilisation (well, Mesopotamia/Sumer) and has vast historical connections with ALL of our pasts. I think Iraq has a huge potential tourism industry as a result. I for one would love to visit the ancient cities of Ur, Babylon, Uruk and other relevant sites of the Sumerian culture (who, btw, started the ball rolling to capitalism). There's as much money in tourism in the long term as there is in there oil fields...if they can do it right that is.
Old 12th April 2003
  #707
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uh...Carl...I don't know what you're getting all pissed off again about. You are missing the mark by a long shot. I don't know of any nation that puts millions of people with brains in the bank.

My statement is based on exportable commodities and has absolutely nothing to do with the Iraqi people. Simply put, an economy must have something that other people will buy. Unless you are suggesting the sale of people, one really has nothing to do with the other.

I also have read that Iraq is often refered as the "Cradle of Civilization," and have a desire to see that part of the world. That being said, I really don't know of many people willing to go on a sight seeing tour of any nation torn apart by a war within the last 10 years - not much of a holiday, is it? Even if the tourism business booms in 2 years, I seriously don't think it could generate enough income to rebuild a nation. Its a reality issue, not a Utopian issue.

I have nothing less than the highest regard for the majority of Iraqis...and wish them nothing short of the best with their new world...my post was somewhat clear on that, and it would appear that any misunderstandings based on God-knows-what is not really my fault this time.

Sometimes even a good dog just won't hunt.
Old 12th April 2003
  #708
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Iraq was once a prosperous nation, before Saddam. It's next door neighbor, Kuwait, is a prosperous nation today, with a per capita income just below that of Portugal, South Korea and Greece, and over twice the average of the world's. A good standard of living.

Iraq's problems are not due to a lack of resources or a lack of industry on the part of it's people. It's due to an egomaniacal tyrant, similar to Stalin, who misapproriated many, many billions of dollars.

Building dozens of lavish palaces at the cost of billions while your people are starving is just one example. No one knows exactly how much money he sent out of the country in secret, either.

With a free and benevolent government, Iraq will do just fine. IMO, their biggest future worry is the endemic ethnic and religious animosity.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 12th April 2003
  #709
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I have a question I hope somebody here knows the answer to.

What is the source of debt that Iraq owes to various nations?

Specifically:

1. Why does Iraq owe Russia ~ $12 billion Euros?
2. Why does Iraq owe France ~ $8 billion Euros?
3. Why does Iraq owe Germany ~ $4 billion Euros?
4. How much does Iraq owe the US? (I don't know that one.)

There is still some debate as to the exact amounts, and this is merely current debt, not the billions in future contracts with some of these countries. I just think this would be fascinating to know. Surely the fact that this debt is owed to elected governments should make it largely, if not wholly, a matter of public record, yes?

I think this info might explain a few things about the political square dance we are about to see, beginning with the German/French/Russian summit going on this weekend.

BTW, I read that the Russian parliament has already indicated it's not too excited about the prospect of forgiving the debt, already undercutting statements otherwise by Putin. Since this thread has had so much political commentary thus far, I think it may be educational for us all to watch the positions various countries take here in the aftermath.

One thing that already seems apparent, is that in one sense, the fall of Saddam has terminated a business partner for some or all of these countres. Weird to think that way, but it seems to be so.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 12th April 2003
  #710
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Midlandmorgan
uh...Carl...I don't know what you're getting all pissed off again about.
I'm not getting pissed off, and as for "again", I very rarely do, so you don't have to use 'being pissed' to try and emphasize your point.


Quote:
Originally posted by Midlandmorgan

My statement is based on exportable commodities and has absolutely nothing to do with the Iraqi people. Simply put, an economy must have something that other people will buy. Unless you are suggesting the sale of people, one really has nothing to do with the other.
It's the oil, coupled with the regime, which has oppressed the people all these years. In fact, if anything, the oil in Iraq has probably deepened the misery for the majority of Iraqi’s.

The point I was trying to make is that, yes, obviously, Iraq’s main exportable commodity will initially be their oil, but the returns should be invested in the people and industry in order to make Iraq more than a one trick pony in the future. The country has been oppressed for 30 years, being freethinking and having freedom of speech haven’t been an option, what ‘could’ have transpired from Iraq to be exported in this time we’ll never know. There could have been a cure for cancer, a way to get to Mars, etc. exaggeration I know, but you get my point!

Surely these people have a right to opportunities now.

In terms of tourism, don’t you think that during the rebuilding process that is inevitable, whoever is in charge could have one eye on building future tourism? Yes, I know nobody is going to want to go there just yet, but by the time the country is rebuilt I think there will be a lot of people keen to visit the ancient cities, as the initial flow goes, I think more would follow.
You can maybe look at Vietnam as an example….
Old 12th April 2003
  #711
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Brian, nobody (as far as I know) has accused you of having the only government with an agenda!!

I too would like to know what it's for, but;

1) It ain't THAT hard to guess.

2) It ain't hard to work out what the 3 governments probably had their eyes on for collateral.
Old 13th April 2003
  #712
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malice's Avatar
 

2. Why does Iraq owe France ~ $8 billion Euros?
3. Why does Iraq owe Germany ~ $4 billion Euros?
4. How much does Iraq owe the US? (I don't know that one.)

C'mon Brian

Nato GAVE weapons of Mass Destruction to Iraq. It was an US decision during Iran/Iraq war. UK BUILD chemical weapons factory before Israeli and US destroy them, you KNOW that.

This war is more or less about US/UK cleaning their (and France) mess.

You f***ing created Saddam as you created Bin Ladden.

Bin Ladden was having dinner with Bush family during the good ol' days, don't you know that ?

malice

PS : and George Bush beloved Grand po was making business with Nazzi's Germany DURING WWII, sorry to bring that news to you ...

I'm so gonna get it for that PS ...

I'll post a three pages about the subject tomorow, I'm exhausted now.
If that interest somebody, of course ...

Love you all, btw
Old 13th April 2003
  #713
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You guys are so busy inferring hidden agendas from varous posts, it seems you seldom consider the concept of sincerity.

Look, I just wondered, seeing as how people here have talked about all the various news sources in the various countries, if anybody knew what the specific source of these debts to various countries (including the US) were.

It's a simple, honest question. Are you guys so deep into conspiratorial suspicion that an honest question throws you a curve? In my question, I didn't ask about Bin Laden, George Bush, the Easter Bunny or anybody else.

Sheesh. So does anybody actually know any specific items of sale that would shed light on any of the thngs I asked about?

Feel free to rant away. But at least take a shot at answering the actual question, if anybody can. I'm just honestly curious and don't actually know who sold what to Iraq. I mean, for starters, who sold them the stuff to build the palaces, in the middle of economic sanctions and the ensuing shortages? If I were the Iraqis, I would be writing that one off, whoever it was, US included.

Thanks to anybody who actually knows something about this subject. I'm just honestly curious.

Not meaning to offend, but some of you guys are going a little tunnel visioned here, IMO.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 13th April 2003
  #714
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The Russians spied on Blair for Saddam

Oooooweeee.

THIS is going to make some kind of big stink. Pretty unsavory, IMO.

I wonder what else is likely to pop up as they go through these buildings?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 13th April 2003
  #715
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT

Thanks to anybody who actually knows something about this subject. I'm just honestly curious.

Not meaning to offend, but some of you guys are going a little tunnel visioned here, IMO.
Sorry, It was late, I was drunk

But I don't have specifics about that, but I'll bet it would be for some innocent export ... Well may be not Russia

What I meant is that we GAVE the WMDs to Saddam, we did not sold them ...

It is an honnest answer

kind regards Brian

malice
Old 13th April 2003
  #716
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Re: The Russians spied on Blair for Saddam

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Oooooweeee.

THIS is going to make some kind of big stink. Pretty unsavory, IMO.

I wonder what else is likely to pop up as they go through these buildings?


Regards,
Brian T
That does not entirely surprise me from Russia. I must say that I don't particulary like France being "allied" to puttin Russia for a LOTS of reasons.

But

I still don't buy this Nuclear weapons development in Iraq. WHERE is it ?

Still no evidence for that and for chemical/biological weapons ...

Who to believe ?

malice
Old 13th April 2003
  #717
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Seems that at this juncture, the hawks and the doves are starting to agree on the main issues: HOW will Iraq rebuild? The ideas of who sold what for how much is not really the focal point I feel...

Messiah, my buddy (sincerely)...it appears to this writer that we agree on more than we disagree on...but I really have to stand by the idea that oil is what put Iraq on the map, and oil will put them back on the map of productive nations... West Texas is a great example: when the major oil companies pulled out of here a few years back, our economy nearly turned to **** in a hurry. Cotton and ranching, our second economic bases, have been suffering for years due to severe draught conditions...our area survived it and is on the rebound, again based on oil...I read somewhere that a barrel of oil employs +/- 50 people...producers, drillers, roughnecks, runners, people working at the grocery stores selling to the oil families, well you get the point.

As for tourism - I have never met anyone who has travelled to Vietnam without a military motive...I'm sure they are out there, but can tourism support an entire nation? Most likely not. Even if it could, there are still those who refuse to fly on any flight lasting more than an hour or so (myself included!) for fear of another hijacking scenario...the airline industry's dire financial status attests to this fact.

One suggestion: English has as many dialects as any language in the earth...I am VERY guilty of speaking the 'redneck' dialect, thus some of my intentions are misread. I will endeavor to remove such colloquiallisms (sp?) in the future...around here, being 'pissed off' is not a bad thing ...

Ken
Old 14th April 2003
  #718
Gear Head
 

This is a link to an article about Hans Blix. Blix has some interesting stuff to say--not all of it terribly new, but nicely put nonetheless. The comments about N. Korea were especially interesting to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...blix&printer=1

On the topic of whither the WMD: it struck me today that some in the Bush admin would be happy for folks to think Iraq's WMD (be they real or imagined) are now in the hands of a terrorist group or some axevial* nation. They are right fond of using fear, be it rational or irrational, to achieve their ends (eg they used fear of al Qaida to sell the American public on the war on Iraq.)
So if everybody's scared that Hammas or Syria or even N. Korea purchased Iraq's chemical weapons, then it's a great way to sell folks on their next conquest. & it's also a great way to distract folks from economic woes, attacks on the environment, & the spiraling budget deficit.

Brian will probably consider this theory "cynical;" I think it's plausible & realistic.

*axevial--adj. belonging to or similar to a member of GWB's axis of evil.
Old 14th April 2003
  #719
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Quote:
Originally posted by hodad


Brian will probably consider this theory "cynical;" I think it's plausible & realistic.

No, unfortunately, I do believe a reasoning person would have to grant you that possibility.

I'm seeing what could be the beginnings of a rationale from some in the US administration for use of force regarding other Mideast countries. Or maybe it's just rhetoric to make a point about terrorism and how serious we are about it. Certainly, everyone, including the previously intractable North Korea, seems to have gotten the message at this point. I don't know how serious the talk is, but it is there.

If it's any consolation, I believe Iraq was a unique situation in the minds of the American public. There are no UN sanctions involving potential military force elsewhere. Iraq's post Gulf War scenario has been unique, due to the armistice signed and consequent controversy.

It will require a great deal more convincing for the American public to support military action against Syria or Iran. Though I do have to say I am really very concerned with Iran's nuclear program. I just don't know what to do about it. They need nukes like Charlie Manson needs parole. How that all plays out over the next 5 years is anybody's guess.

As always, time will tell. If there is longterm US militaristic machination afoot for ignoble reasons, then I say screw 'em, and I'll help. Peace is good. Let's have it, as often as possible.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 14th April 2003
  #720
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malice's Avatar
 

Yes Brian,

But your pres just made a statement about Syria...

He just said (I'm listening to it now) that Syria has MDW ...

Again

But he is sure Syria is willing to cooperate,

Déjà vu ?

malice
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