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Old 9th April 2003
  #601
Lives for gear
 

Experiment concluded.

Conclusion: The US government is indeed Satanic and is populated primarily, if not solely, by elected criminals, though Americans in general are nice people (I'm trying to reconcile that).

There is no possibility of any decent motivation by the current US government. It appears that anyone who considers otherwise is naive at best, a fool at worst.

Many here cannot consider otherwise, and though they consider themselves enlightened and openminded, are remarkably consistent in their negativity on any and every aspect of the subject of the US government, based upon their statements.

Does this seem to be a more or less accurate assessment of the last few posts?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #602
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Logan
Brian Brian Brian
A guy as bright as you can't really be so niave
What if you are right about that? Hmmmmm. Does that mean that a guy as bright as you really could be overly cynical?

Just seems like a fair question.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #603
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
"It has been pointed out many times in these threads that those of us who think that the USA is controlled by a bunch of warmongering twits, do not have the same opinion about the people of the USA"

Ahh, but here comes the rub.

Currently, approximately 77% of Americans approve of President Bush's actions in Iraq. Where does that leave you?

Does that leave Americans as naive sheep, warmongers in training, or something else I can't guess at? How do you reconcile that percentage of approval with your statement?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #604
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Are nice people being fooled a principle contradiction?
Old 9th April 2003
  #605
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
It appears that anyone who considers otherwise is naive at best, a fool at worst.


Regards,
Brian T [/B]
Glad to see that we're finally get through to you bro ;-) take care Logan
Old 9th April 2003
  #606
Jules said: "I don't think anybody in Europe at this time trusts Bush to not give his good old boys "business opportunities" in the name of 'US style freedom' or some sort of twisted commercial debt of honor"

"Can we get any more cynical than this? It's like 9/11 never happened. We Americans (who are really just like YOU because we are a collection of people from all the world that share a common love of freedom) are not imagining that certain terror groups and Nations want to destroy our free American society and our way of life. We have even allowed them to live and plot among us. Those that seek to destroy our way of life should at least have the courtesy to declare War outright. Americans will not give up our free way of life without a fight. Unfortunately for all innocent lives -- both those of the American and Coalition soldiers, as well as the Iraqi civilians (particularly the civilians that the Iraqi "Soldier" is hiding among) -- freedom is not free."

That is some weird jumbled sentence there! You posted it as if in some sort of answer, but it isn't one...... Points taken I suppose but do you care to take another crack at disagreeing with the statement you quoted? The Saddam / 911 link is post Bush PR snowjob viewpoint IMHO, he would have us believe they planned it together. Total nonsence.

Anyhow, today in Ireland, Bush standing next to Blair, visibly squirmed when pressed on the question of UN involvement in a new Iraq interim government. It was clear he felt the WHOLE WORLD was watching him like a hawk and insisting he not slip up on the issue............. GOOD!

Bush Jnr was sold to the American voter as someone with a 'great team of advisors'. Well, if he is now going to be deciding on stuff for the rest of the worlds behalf, the world is going to want to pull up a chair at that little table and help "him out" a little!....That's a no brainer. He came to the job with a D minus in foreign affairs anyhow... remember? Blair is just sticking to him like glue so he doesn't drag us all into WW3, he recognizes Bush's inexperience and is trying to get him to keep his cowboy boots from ruining the worlds doily. Blair wont be the only person reminding him!


Old 9th April 2003
  #607
Lives for gear
 

A question. A very serious question that I mean sincerely.

Can anyone name another country in the last 100 years that has been compelled to march it's armies through as many other countries, lost precious lives to liberate them, and then voluntarily left them, and left them better than it found them.

Over and over again? The only possible other that I can think of would be Great Britain. Funny coincidence, that, eh? I do understand that other countries were definitely involved in a positive way here, but the onus was primarily on the US in these cases.

I'll start a list for the US. Feel free to add to this one, or start a list for another country you think has done so more times.

France
Germany (West)
Belgium
Netherlands
Japan
Italy
Korea
Kuwait
others I'm sure someone else can fill in

My question then is how many countries does the US currently occupy by force? I would posit that the vast preponderance of historical precedence would show that the US (along with Britain) is most likely to leave Iraq voluntarily to it's own governmental devices as soon as is practical, and with better future prospects than it has known in decades. This is what history clearly says to expect, despite the negative expectations of many in this group.

And now, I'm waiting for someone to point out how the Berlin Wall was built to keep people from moving into East Germany. Revisionism seems to be in vogue here.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #608
Lives for gear
 
littledog's Avatar
 

As an United States citizen, I too am rightfully proud of the role my father and millions of others played in WWII. Subtract the industrial and military capability of the USA, and the ****s would probably still be bombing London. And any of us here who might be Homosexuals, Gypsies, or Jews (among many others) would not be here to witness it.

The reality is, though, that not every endeavor in which the US has gotten involved since then has had the same clear moral imperative of WWII. We, unfortunately, have a long history of interfering in other nations politics and governments in order to protect US business interests, even when such interests were obviously counter to the benefit and desires of the local populations. When land reform was threatened in Guatemala, thereby impacting the profits of United Fruit, we installed a "friendlier" government. The fact that it was a corrupt brutal dictatorship phased us not a bit. Same thing happened in Chile with the overthrow of Allende. And in Indochina. And in many other examples.

For many years our foreign policy was based on the "domino theory" and "better dead than Red". The needs and desires of the local populations in these countries were considered irrelevent.

Now, this policy of defending US business interests at any cost did begin to change starting wth the Jimmy Carter era. Carter actually made a number of decisions that were detrimental to US economic interests by tying certain trade agreements to "human rights" demands. And of course, businesses quickly lined up behind his Republican opponents.

The motives of the US in Iraq may not be quite as self-serving as the most cynical among us have claimed, nor as altruistic as the more "naive" have stated. But what should be remembered is that even if the motivations were 100% pure, there is a strong precedent of unmitigated self-interest and manipulation that stretches far back in US foreign policy history. Does that make us worse, historically, than Britain, France, Spain, USSR, Germany, etc.? No, but we should not put ourselves on a moral pedestal eaither.

The onus is on the USA to prove itself. That we are not merely an economic and military bully. I hope we are able to do so, but it should surprise NO ONE, including our own citizens, that the rest of the world trusts us no farther than they can throw us.
Old 9th April 2003
  #609
Logan, Little Dog

Awesome posts!

"The onus is on the USA to prove itself. That we are not merely an economic and military bully. I hope we are able to do so, but it should surprise NO ONE, including our own citizens, that the rest of the world trusts us no farther than they can throw us"

Well put.

Yup - blind faith, who can expect or demand it?

tutt

Question is, would you put Bush up on a podium as one of Americas great presidents? Or would you go get a bunch of extra chairs for his "great advisors" too?

Anyhow, my conserned ramblings are full of holes I am sure, but I stand by Logan & Little Dogs recent supremely articulate posts 100%.

Old 9th April 2003
  #610
Gear Addict
 

Brian
You forgot a few, Veitnam, Cambodia, the Philipines, Guatamala, Chile and oh ya Grenda. Seems to me that You still have a significant presence in Korea and Kuwait and the Philipines. Even here in Canada you have a significant history of interfering in our domestic politics. We're certainly no third world dictatorship, but JFK felt he had to send his personal advisors to help the liberal government defeat the Conservatives in the mid sixties, Seems he was peeved that then Prime Minister Deifenbaker wouldn't allow american forces to move nukes onto Canadian territory, bad enough that the DEW line bases your forces maintained in our Arctic are toxic waste dumps, one shudders to think what you may have done with tatical nukes. I realise that there is a significant culture of military service and support in the USA, but you would be preforming a serious rewrite of history to start believing that a significant number of your military adventures, have not caused much more harm than good, and continue to do so.
Incidently yesterday was the anniversery of over 10,000 Canadian soldiers dying while taking Vimy Ridge, unfortunately you guys weren't in yet, so you missed some of that dubious glory.
Nothing characterises the mind set of American business more the Rockefellers sending millions to the ****s, because they were going to smash the growing radical European trade Union movement.
I don't think you are going to get a whole lot of sympathy for American Military, CIA and corporate adventurism, especially from the 50's on, history simply won't back you up. Take care Logan
Old 9th April 2003
  #611
Here for the gear
 

Great thread.

First off, great thread. It is very cool to hear the perspectives of real people living in other countries. As an American I am very concerned by how this war started. "By the people, for the people" my ass! As I recall, most Americans did not want war, did not feel Bush made the case, and I think that most people are distrustful of the administrations motives. I've been hearing Billy Bragg's rather cheezy (sound quality wise) recording of "It's all about the price of oil." I don't know how much oil really plays into this war, but I don't think our objective is to take control of the oil fields so we can drive prices down (I may be naive). However, I do know that our president is very tied to the oil companies. I do wonder how much of France's resistence to the war is out of fear that their oil interests will be affected by the American presence. A previous post referred to our environmental policies being really f***ed up, and I agree. The Bush administration gives HUGE tax breaks to people that buy the largest gas guzzling vehicles such as the Hummer (as much as 60% of the cost of the vehicle back the first year after purchase). However consumers only get a paltry $1000 back for buying a hybrid vehicle. He recently announced that he was going to put $1 billion dollars into research and development of the fuel cell vehicles - woopty f***ing sh*t. Let's see - 75+ Billion for bombs in Iraq and 1 billion to develop a technology that we know works and would eventually lead to less dependence on oil and other enviromentally damaging fuel sources. To make a long story short, I feel incredibly frustrated as an American and don't feel that my voice is heard. I do vote - and I sure as hell don't plan on re-electing Bush when the time comes. Glad that intelligent folks out there are able to discriminate our government from the average "unheard" American citizen. Too bad it seems that the terrorists aren't as discriminating! Best wishes to you all.

Rob
Old 9th April 2003
  #612
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

maybe there is some residual psychology effect stemming from WWII where US wanted to stay out of the war, stayed out of the war for a while and while the ****s tromped all over europe, the US finally came in and ended it all. maybe there is something about being the "parent" of the world spanking countries for misbehaving since no one else is capable of it.

maybe the world is just a bunch of little babies who need an ass whooping from time to time.

after all, the people in the military right now signed up for it. its their JOB, its MY [and everyone elses] taxes who pay for their job. now if they instated the draft and made people who dont want to fight... im not for that.

although for FREEDOM? what the **** is FREEDOM.... it doesnt exist in america, why would anyone spew their rhetoric of making it exist elsewhere.
Old 9th April 2003
  #613
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Logan
Brian
You forgot a few, Veitnam, Cambodia, the Philipines, Guatamala, Chile and oh ya Grenda.

Bingo. You make my point for me, Logan. Seemingly only the negative, never the positive, from your side of this aisle.

I make mention of the countries who are now prosperous and free thanks to the US and invite anyone to list other countries who have done likewise. That would be a positive post, inviting positive commentary about other countries as well. Surely, there must have been some good done in the world and maybe we could interrupt the carping for 2 or 3 posts to talk about that.

But since there appear to be no real comparisons there, in lieu of listing similar positive deeds by other nations, you respond instead with yet more negatives about the US.

Maybe this thread is now not so much about governments as it is about personal demeanor and perspective. It seems some people enjoy ferreting out the negatives (with the hazard of being labeled as cynical), while others zero in more on the positives (with the hazard of being labeled as naive).

I can live with that.

Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #614
Lives for gear
 

Incredible pictures of some very happy Iraqis jumping up and down and celebrating on top of a toppled statue of Saddam Hussein in downtown Baghdad. Reminded me of the Berlin Wall coming down when the big Iraqi guy started wailing away with the sledge hammer.

I think the Iraqis finally believe they will not be given false hope (like last time) and that Saddam is out of here. It made me very happy to think that they may have a better life.

I'm just waiting to see how you guys are going to turn that event into a tragedy. I await yet more variations on "The US is Evil" theme in the aftermath of this disgusting scene of joy.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #615
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Ahh, but here comes the rub.

Currently, approximately 77% of Americans approve of President Bush's actions in Iraq. Where does that leave you?

Does that leave Americans as naive sheep, warmongers in training, or something else I can't guess at? How do you reconcile that percentage of approval with your statement?


Regards,
Brian T
Brian
Really I think that Ruphus said it all, but...
I do have suspicions about the quality of information that exists in the US. There has been a significant consolidation of media ownership in the so called free world and strangely enough those guys tend to pretty much toe the party line. Luckily we have strong public radio here in Canada and in Britain where we tend to get a much broader view of the world. Besides I can get the majority of any population to agree with anything I want them to, in a poll, if I control the question and the way it is asked.
In many countries represented here there is also significantly broader influences brought to any political discussion. There are socialist and environmental parties that command significant respect and enjoy electoral success, whereas it seems that the level of political discussion in the USA can be subverted by simply implying that someone is a liberal. George Bush ran on a policy of not being involved in the rest of the world. Now I understand that 9/11 had serious implications for that mind set, but it was clear that the attack on Afghanistan pretty much damaged the ability of Bin laden to function with the impunity that he had when he was sitting in a Taliban controlled state. A state that owed it's existance to more American meddling BTW. The Taliban were armed and supported by the CIA to counter Russian influence in the area. The rest of your allies were decidedly onside in the desire to end global terrorism, even if it was sometimes hard to distinguish the terrorist from the CIA supported "freedom fighters". So once again it's hard to distinguish American retoric from reality, and I'm sure it's every bit as hard for Americans as the rest of us. Take care Logan
Old 9th April 2003
  #616
Gear Addict
 

Brian
You want positives, well OK, Blind Willie Mc'tell, WC Handy,Sam Hopkins, Mississippi John Hurt, Leadbelly, Magic Sam, Earl King, Fats Domino, Huey Smith, Jelly Roll Morton, Satchmo, Johnny Copeland,Freddie King, Albert King, BB King, Jessie Fuller, Louis Jordan, Stevie and Jimmie Vaughn, Woody Guthrie, Arlo too, All of the Seegers, Jimmie Rogers, Bob Wills, Hank Williams, John Cash, Hag, Waylon, Willie, Link Wray, Wanda Jackson, Sam Philips, Elvis, Doc Pomus, DR John , all of the Nevilles, James Brown, Chuck Berry, Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Aretha, Bonnie Raitt, David Lindley,Ry Cooder, Duck Dunn, Steve Cropper, Booker T, Ji Keltner, James Burton, Lucinda Williams, John Hiatt, Randy Newman, Doc Watson,Bill and Charlie Monroe, Doug Sahm, Freddy Fender, Joe Ely, Ella, Sarah Vaughn, Taj Mahal, Iris Dement, Shawn Colvin, Billie Holliday, Bob Dylan, Geof Muldar, Jim Kweskin, Paul Butterfield, Junior Brown, Tom Rush, Phil Ochs, Clarence White, Jimi and that's only a cursory glance at my collection.. American military adventures, sorry can't think of any. take care Logan
How could I have forgot Delbert McClinton and Gatemouth Brown anf All the Scruggs and Don Reno and Bill Keith and John Hartford and Tut Taylor and Norman Blake and Vasser Clements and George Jones and Patsy Cline and and and....
Old 9th April 2003
  #617
Lives for gear
 

Do you have any idea how many posts I've read on the internet, and from how many different countries they came, where the poster seriously thought their own particular perspective, provided primarily by media based in their own country, was THE REAL perspective.

Are you sure that position is not just a tad arrogant?

I would bet that someone in Jordan, Oman, Kenya, North Korea, France, Canada or the US thinks the same thing. Namely, that everyone's chosen news source has their own bias and agenda, but theirs is closest to true.

FWIW, I don't really see how your concept is true these days, anyway. I do watch the major newsies here in the US. Via the internet, I also check out the news according to Canada, Great Britian (including the BBC), Mexico, Spain, France, both North and South Korea, and Singapore pretty much daily, and skip around elsewhere randomly.

So can anyone else with a modem (outside of China and a few other repressive places). That is why I believe you have to assume people you think are duped are not duped, but ignorant. And I disagree with you about that.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe those of you on this thread who assume a subtle superiority to the "common man" here in America, or anywhere else for that matter, are any more right just because of that assumption. If you read many of these posts with an eye to it, the slight superiority is there. The uneducated masses are seen as pawns.

I disagree. And so do about 77% of the rest of the "uneducated and fooled" American masses. Call me stupid. It's OK, I've been called worse.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #618
Lets have a short pause to celebrate!
Attached Thumbnails
another WAR 2003-sadham.jpg  
Old 9th April 2003
  #619
Lives for gear
 

Speaking of the BBC, here are a few quotes from BBC correspondents regarding todays events in Baghdad in this Link .

******

From Miranda Eeles in Tehran:

I've been watching the state news channel here in Tehran for the last couple of hours, and there has not been one picture of the scenes of jubilation in Baghdad at all.

This is in keeping with the state coverage so far, which has been very pro-Iraq, very pro-Saddam Hussein. So it's quite difficult to gauge a reaction from the Iranians.

******

Kim Ghattas in Damascus

Syrian state television is not showing any of those pictures. Obviously Syria is very much against the war, and after having warned about the consequences of the war the state television has chosen not to show any pictures of jubilant crowds.

They are keeping to their official line that the international community is still condemning the war.

******


That would seem to be part of an organized attempt to preserve animosity towards America.

Sort of like this thread


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #620
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

"Look, your line of thinking is something that the world has already seen (and tried) before. Remember Stalin? East Germany? As much as your Utopian wishful thinking about the nature of man makes for good theory i.e. Marx, it has proven to be a solution far worse than the problem. Read some John Locke and digest the natural man theory, and you will then perhaps have some frame of reference for understanding the American Constitution and our love of freedom."

The vast use of argument pointing to so called socialist governments who weren´t alone doesn´t make it to the point already.
Stalin and East Germany proof only one fact. Democracy can´t happen if the power is inflexibly bound to a few personalities, especially when those are not controlled by the people who they stand for.
Your argument is always used by those who can´t imagine how democracy could be working and who in the same time arn´t aware of what they support.

"As much as your Utopian wishful thinking about the nature of man makes for good theory i.e. Marx, it has proven to be a solution far worse than the problem."

What has been proven see above, but it could pay to hang on to the question of human´s nature indeed.
If you invest about it you can find out the difference between actual scientific findings and that what has been spread long since and still is believed by majority.

There has always been a big interest to declare the nature of homo sapiens and his extincted cousins to be selfish, shortsighted and brutal. By very much means, because without such distortion status quo we have and had through the last centuries could not have been legitimized as inevitable and even as progress.

Anthropologists today will tell you what the nature of men in reality looks like and that what we have today is heavy deformation.
We have come from satisfaction to compensation while empathy as THE feature that once brought consciousness to us now is crippling from year to year. We are degenerating.
So far about "what to read".

"Read some John Locke and digest the natural man theory, and you will then perhaps have some frame of reference for understanding the American Constitution and our love of freedom."

For me the average talk about freedom is a sadly rediculous event, especially when mentioned again and again in relation of defending reactionary politics.

While that word might sound so shiny to you you appearently havn´t an idea what it could be about.
You think freedom would mean the permission to travel or the ability to sell goods far above its value as far as you can make the situation pressing enough for the demand to pay as much you want. You think freedom means permission for your rights above others.

But freedoms means other things. Freedom means to get what is your right to, be it the value of your working efforts or the right to receive unmanipulated information.
All this regardless of your connections, wealth, race and sex.

You might try this for to smoke in your freedom pipe.

And while we are at "freedom":

Good that Logan already mentioned significant consolidation of media ownership in the so called free world.

Here in Germany where in my impression we had some of the worlds most factual newspapers and magazines we currently are having silent but significant changes to the mess.

First, the prime court took away the press rights for privacy keeping them only for politics and priests. Secondly, all serious newspapers are being overtaken by unfamiliar industries. The new owners already made very clear by closing departments and kicking reporters what they are out for.

All in the sense of freedom like you Dbluefield and others might consider it to be.

Awful

Ruphus
Old 9th April 2003
  #621
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

So you think all that we have like massive corruption, exploitation that ruins billions lifes and thelike is neccessity for the possibility to say what you want?
The only way to get there?
Very interesting.

And BTW, your kind of freedom goes only that far as it won´t change too much for the exessive profits.
Before that elections would be and are manipulated and also individuals are killed. It happens all the time.

The world doesn´t need your kind of freedom, beleive it. People can be fair without being manipulated, cheated and exploited.

Only if they´d try it anywhere in the world you can be dead sure that the US and other politics will do all they can to sabotage.

They have their considerable reasons.

Ruphus

PS: Now you can point once again to dictators ( yawn ) just like who cause suffering worldwide would be none. ... I forgot, but for that they let us say what we want, great yes.
Old 9th April 2003
  #622
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus

What has been proven see above, but it could pay to hang on to the question of human´s nature indeed.
If you invest about it you can find out the difference between actual scientific findings and that what has been spread long since and still is believed by majority.

There has always been a big interest to declare the nature of homo sapiens and his extincted cousins to be selfish, shortsighted and brutal. By very much means, because without such distortion status quo we have and had through the last centuries could not have been legitimized as inevitable and even as progress.

Anthropologists today will tell you what the nature of men in reality looks like and that what we have today is heavy deformation.

Wow. No wonder we disagree on so much. If your philosphy of the human condition is derived substantially from anthropologists, I wish you all the best in your quest towards world peace, though I am extremely dubious that an anthropologist has the necessary information.

Reading between the lines, I'm supposing that it's not only capitalism that is bad, but also any attempt at an organized religion? Forgive me if I assume incorrectly there.

To me, it's pretty simple. If everybody lived their life more like an anthropologist, I'm not sure where that would get us. That is because I do believe the average person, while made in the image of God and possessed of marvelous potential, is inherently flawed by selfishness. Witness teaching a child to share. It is learned. "Mine" comes much more naturally than "ours".

However, if everyone (most certainly including me) lived their life more like Jesus, who I believe was the most unselfish person, I believe this earth would be an amazingly better place. That is the point of Christianity, though we selfish humans have managed to generally muck it up pretty badly, thereby too often giving God a bad rep. But remember, the overly religious people were the only people Jesus was ever really angry with. Reassuring, is it not?

I know. This post probably makes me naive again.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #623
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Brian,

you are mixing up anthropology with anthroposophy.

I for my part don´t believe in any gods as it would only distract from essential reception.
It BTW, has been proven that the bible consist of nothing but story telling derived from famous people´s biography like some pharaoes.
Currently they are finding out more and more about it while the archeologists are digging in Israel.

Like the choran too such doktrins have been good for nothing than making people obeying the sovereigns. And unfortunately it still works.

Religion is nothing than one BS told from one human being to another and altered from time time to the current needs.

Check out what religion has brought over menkind and what development it has stopped and prevented.

Greets,

Ruphus
Old 9th April 2003
  #624
I kinda thought that cartoon was funny myself!

heh
Old 9th April 2003
  #625
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

me too
Old 9th April 2003
  #626
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
I kinda thought that cartoon was funny myself!

heh
Cartoon? I thought you were going for a make over. Actually it was pretty funny. Take care Logan
Old 9th April 2003
  #627
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Wow. No wonder we disagree on so much. If your philosphy of the human condition is derived substantially from anthropologists, I wish you all the best in your quest towards world peace, though I am extremely dubious that an anthropologist has the necessary information.

Reading between the lines, I'm supposing that it's not only capitalism that is bad, but also any attempt at an organized religion? Forgive me if I assume incorrectly there.

To me, it's pretty simple. If everybody lived their life more like an anthropologist, I'm not sure where that would get us. That is because I do believe the average person, while made in the image of God and possessed of marvelous potential, is inherently flawed by selfishness. Witness teaching a child to share. It is learned. "Mine" comes much more naturally than "ours".

However, if everyone (most certainly including me) lived their life more like Jesus, who I believe was the most unselfish person, I believe this earth would be an amazingly better place. That is the point of Christianity, though we selfish humans have managed to generally muck it up pretty badly, thereby too often giving God a bad rep. But remember, the overly religious people were the only people Jesus was ever really angry with. Reassuring, is it not?

I know. This post probably makes me naive again.


Regards,
Brian T
Brian
I'm not about to tell you what to believe, but for me that Christian stuff certainly seems a little niave, I do understand it I grew up with it, my father was an Anglican priest, and I had a tremendous amout of love and respect for him, but I could not buy the religious faith thing. I understand faith, I have faith in a great many people and a few ideas. But you are dead wrong about the human nature thing, and Ruphus has a lock on the understanding of this issue. I suggest you read the american sociologist Paul Goodman. I believe it was in his book "Growing Up Absurd" , where he details the lengths organized religion went to to develop and sell the idea of original sin, to change the general view of people about the nature of their neighbours and communities. If you want to make people dependant and susceptible to controlling philosophies you first need to shake their belief in themselves and their communities. Then they become much more vulnerable to the machinations of the elite.
And on the issue of the Iraqi people being overjoyed that Saddam is gone, well of course they are. The important point here is that if the american elite had not propped up Saddam and armed him and sold him the means to make chemical weapons in the first place when he was your ally against Iran, he would have been gone along time ago. Your government created this guy and gave him tacit support when he gassed his own people, the same as you create Bin Laden, when you wanted the Russians out of Afghanistan. So don't try and take any credit for his demise, especially when it has come with the death of civilians and the destruction of the infrastructure of a country. Many many Iraqi children will die in the next 6 months while the dammage is undone. And if the americans install a government with the idea of having a puppet regime to advance american interests, the way it seems like you are intending to, there will be chaos and death in the area for decades to come. Take care Logan
Old 9th April 2003
  #628
Lives for gear
 

We are each free to choose our belief, or unbelief, in God. To call those (like me) who do believe in God, naive, and witting or unwitting participants in the subjugation of the masses to the will of the elite is, unfortunately, in keeping with the general demeanor of this thread.

We're unlikely to resolve polar opposite views on the existence of God here, so I'll sidestep that one for now, while noting what I believe to be some pretty condescending views expressed towards religion. Predictable, but sobering to me in their judgemental demeanor, nonetheless.

As far as arming Saddam. Something puzzles me here. Do you guys know anything about military hardware?

Every Iraqi tank, every plane, every armored vehicle, the artillery, the AK rifles, the rocket launchers, the radar, the antiaircraft weapons, the SAM missiles, etc.

Hey guys...... none of them are American made. They are all Russian , with the exception of a few French planes. Which, to tell the truth, is a part of why we were able to prevail so easily. Sorry, but it's true.

So we bought Russian weapons and gave them to Saddam Hussein? Not.

So now someone is going to explain to me why it is that a country "we armed" has only Soviet weapons. And let's not forget that nice nuclear reactor the French built for Saddam.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th April 2003
  #629
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I don't know who you're hangin' with, Ruph, but none of the anthropologists I know personally can agree about much of anything. Nothing against anthropologists, as you can pretty much say that about sociologists, psychologists, political scientists, or anyone else in the social sciences.

So to say that "Anthropologists tell us..." is kind of silly. You find one that says one thing, I'll find you ten that say the opposite. like anything else, we like to hear folks that agree with us. Perhaps that's the real human truth.
Old 9th April 2003
  #630
"none of them are American made. They are all Russian , with the exception of a few French planes. Which, to tell the truth, is a part of why we were able to prevail so easily. Sorry, but it's true.

So we bought Russian weapons and gave them to Saddam Hussein? Not.

So now someone is going to explain to me why it is that a country "we armed" has only Soviet weapons. And let's not forget that nice nuclear reactor the French built for Saddam. "

Brian, those are remarkable facts but are you trying to side step the point that the US backed Saddam & muslim extremists in the past when it suited them?

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