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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 2nd April 2003
  #571
Lives for gear
 

Re: How do you "attach strings" to a flying carpet?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
[B
Brian it's all action & reaction and in a state of flux.

In Vietnam I am sure you could fill a clipboard quickly with names of people that hated the USA for its actions at the time, but years on after that conflict, I am sure you could tear up many pages of that long list...

Instead of compiling a hatred directory for future reference and future punitive sanctions how about pausing instaed to examine the cause of it? Or do you find that unreasonable because American tax payers might have bought that country something or may have sent aid to it in the past?

Should aid to foreign countries come with a contract attached? Many of your posts allude to this IMHO.

[/B]

Jules,

Again, I 'm confused. Are you encouraging me not to compile a "hatred directory for future reference and future punitive sanctions"? I assure you I have no intention of compiling any such list. How you could have that impression, I'm not sure. My post to Malice above about the gravesite is my headspace.

As far as foreign aid. Yet again, I'm confused. My only mention was to point out that whatever per capita or GDP % it may be, the US still gives more actual $$$ to foreign aid than any other country, as it should, IMO. To whom much is given, much is required.

I'm beginning to fear that deep discussion via a QWERTY is impossible. Much seems to be misunderstood. If I really have given you the impression that your post above is applicable to me, I'll be quiet now.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 2nd April 2003
  #572
Lives for gear
 
Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT

Do you really think American soldiers enjoy shooting Arab women and children in cars? Do you? Or was that just anger speaking, maybe understandably?
I don't think I implicated anywhere a genuine belief that they enjoy shooting women and children (and I don't think it matters if they're Arab or not, btw, women and children are women and children), but for what it's worth, no I don't think any American soldier would take any enjoyment from it, well I would sincerely hope this to be the case. I know I used the word "likes" but I didn't mean it literally....

Maybe there was a touch of anger in my comments, but I still find the mental conditioning of the US soldiers to be disturbing.
However, firstly, I know that you can't have soldiers being sympathetic to the perceived enemy, and secondly, I think the media instinctively "runs with" these types of comments/actions instinctively for the entertainment factor. As I've said, I blame the regimes and the members of these regimes squarely for what's happening at present. Both George's and Saddam's.

I just seem to see US soldiers each time I turn on the TV with a blatant "all Arabs are bad" mentality, giving high fives, etc.. and this ignorance doesn't sit well with me or my family. I think it causes the "itchy fingers" and nervousness that makes soldiers shoot at unarmed, innocent women and children. Maybe it is something similar that led to the friendly fire upon my brothers pal....
Old 2nd April 2003
  #573
"Jules,

Again, I 'm confused. Are you encouraging me not to compile a "hatred directory for future reference and future punitive sanctions"? I assure you I have no intention of compiling any such list. How you could have that impression, I'm not sure. My post to Malice above about the gravesite is my headspace.

As far as foreign aid. Yet again, I'm confused. My only mention was to point out that whatever per capita or GDP % it may be, the US still gives more actual $$$ to foreign aid than any other country, as it should, IMO. To whom much is given, much is required.

I'm beginning to fear that deep discussion via a QWERTY is impossible. Much seems to be misunderstood. If I really have given you the impression that your post above is applicable to me, I'll be quiet now.


Regards,
Brian T"

My post was intended mainly to kick off a "what should the US expect in return for aid" discussion. I had you down as someone that feels something is 'owed' in return for the aid & military help. That accepted, moving on to defining 'what' is owed is of keen interest to me. Sorry for any off target presumption if this is incorect!

About who hate the US of late, I think it relevent in the context of this thread to distiguish between old adversaries and people who have taken a dislike to the recent Bush administration, perhaps presumption, but I detect a vibe from you that most 'haters' have always 'hated' - I would disagree. As an American myself, I resent the new growth of global hate he seems to be bringing down on the US.

More likely than not I am over thinking and trying to pin opinions on you, but, buried in my possible poor writings, are some points I am glad to have made which can, with patience, be debated by your good self.

Old 3rd April 2003
  #574
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Midlandmorgan's Avatar
 

Jules, et al...I really didn't think for a moment you would get so angry at my opinion...that was the question, wasn't it, what do I think...?

There are light years between what we do now, what we should do, and what we will do in the future...Political underpinnings, new affiliations while remembering what forner allies did the last time we asked for anything in return-all will play a huge role in what lies ahead...on that we can hopefully agree.

I stand by my opinion, and hope the final outcome doesn't get too watered down by appeasement efforts...but in reality, face the facts that the people who should be screaming the loudist about foreign aid is the American taxpayer...

I loathe the idea of part of my taxes going to help a country with leadership hell-bent on destroying my way of life, my family, my nation, and everything we've accomplished (right and wrong, BTW)...and have written to my congressmen and President expressing my displeasure with sending MY money overseas (and did it without being killed...imagine that!) Whether my individual sentiment is loud enough to impact the situation, I don't know...

Some of usl seem to forget that Iraq's Oil for Food program will reap more money in one year than most nations will see in 2 decades...and lets not forget the fact that the overwhelming destruction has been of military targets, something I don't believe anyone is in a real big hurry to rebuild...(sidebar:I don't recall any offers for financial assistance when the World Trade Center and the Pentagon got blasted, or reparations for the 3000+ world citizens who were murdered by arguably the single most cowardiced event in human history...)

Respectfully,

Ken

Edit: I sure will be glad when this is over so we can all go back to being friends, regardless of outlook...
Old 3rd April 2003
  #575
Lives for gear
 

OK. Riddle me this.

When the US gives money or business to somebody like Saddam Hussein, we're guilty of supporting and enabling a dictator, right?

When the US uses sanctions to deny somebody like Saddam Hussein money, we're guilty of starving innocent children, right? (Forgetting that Saddam looks well fed and he had a few billion to build more palaces).

So what's a country to do?

When the whole world spends their time analyzing and second guessing your every move, is it then impossible to ever be percieved by everyone as having done the right thing? Isn't somebody always going to be unhappy with your actions?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 3rd April 2003
  #576
OK. Riddle me this.

"When the US gives money or business to somebody like Saddam Hussein, we're guilty of supporting and enabling a dictator, right?

When the US uses sanctions to deny somebody like Saddam Hussein money, we're guilty of starving innocent children, right? (Forgetting that Saddam looks well fed and he had a few billion to build more palaces).

So what's a country to do?

When the whole world spends their time analyzing and second guessing your every move, is it then impossible to ever be percieved by everyone as having done the right thing? Isn't somebody always going to be unhappy with your actions?


Regards,
Brian T"

Of course someone will always be unhappy, if however that number swells at an alarming rate one would hope that a little breath check might be in order!

tutt

And there surely there is a difference between sleezy political business deals
- "When the US gives money or business to somebody like Saddam Hussein, we're guilty of supporting and enabling a dictator, right?"

And United Nations sanctioned actions
- "sanctions to deny somebody like Saddam Hussein money, we're guilty of starving innocent children, right? "
Old 3rd April 2003
  #577
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT


So what's a country to do?

Hopefully not the same old ****. The old ways are what got us into this mess in the first place. Something I find most discomforting about Bush foreign policy is that creepy deja-vu feeling--it not only reminds me of '70's/ '80's era republican politics, it's the same freaking people. They do seem to be a bit craftier at it, & certainly more brazen (overthrowing govts. used to be a covert activity), but I'm not sure that there have been any fundamental adjustments in outlook, which is a little sad.

I think the absence of the USSR has probably made them a lot bolder in their imperial aspirations, but it's still more of the bloody same.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #578
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

A lot of Americans are talking about a French poll in Le Monde that is overwhelmingly anti-American.

Here is the link to that poll. It is on the website of www.lemonde.fr. Le Monde is a large, well-respected mainstream daily in France with a left socialist leaning. Anyone can vote on the poll (I did twice). It is not a scientific poll by any means, and its readers are mainly the liberal left. As of this morning, the poll had received 3188 responses.

http://www.expression-publique.com/e...dresse=guerre3

Question number four is the one everyone is talking about. At this time, 46% of the respondants want the coalition to win the war, 39% would like to see the war stop now as it is, and 10% would like to see Saddam win the war.

The first question does indicate that the respondants are overwhelmingly against the war.

The results of the poll will be sent to Jacques Chirac, so feel free to vote before it's closed...
Old 3rd April 2003
  #579
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya,
China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as
Evil", which they said would be more evil than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North
Korea axis President Bush warned of in his State of the Union address.

Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as
having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil...in
their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows
we're the best evils... best at being evil...we're the best."

Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded,
although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil. "They
told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

"An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi
President Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World War II you
had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So, you can only have three,
and a secret handshake. Ours is wickedly cool."

International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as
within minutes, France surrendered.

Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in
what became a game of geopolitical chairs.

Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the "Axis of Somewhat
Evil", forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the "Axis of
Occasionally Evil," while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the "Axis of Not
So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable."

With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling
up...Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the
"Axis of Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the
Olympics."

Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the "Axis of Nations That Are
Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Some Nasty Thoughts About America," while
Scotland, New Zealand and Spain established the "Axis of Countries That
Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick." "That's not a threat, really,
just something we like to do," said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack
McConnell.

While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making
fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axis, although he
rejected the establishment of the Axis of Countries Whose Names End in "Guay,"
accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials
from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chadguay denied the charges.

Israel, meanwhile, insisted it didn't want to join any Axis, but
privately, world leaders said that's only because no one asked them.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #581
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

bev wrote :

Quote:
With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling
up...Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the
"Axis of Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the
Olympics."

Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the "Axis of Nations That Are
Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Some Nasty Thoughts About America," while
Scotland, New Zealand and Spain established the "Axis of Countries That
Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick." "That's not a threat, really,
just something we like to do," said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack
McConnell.
Bev,

I'm LMFBO, and somehow I needed it



malice
Old 3rd April 2003
  #582
Old 3rd April 2003
  #583
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

I prefer to call it factually challenged.
Old 4th April 2003
  #584
Lives for gear
 

Did you guys see the footage where the Iraqi crowd gathered, very concerned about the safety of their mosgue. They (incorrectly) were afraid US Marines were going to damage the mosque. An angry crowd and a potentially explosive situation.

The Marines lowered their weapons, backed up, then actually kneeled to show the Iraqis they meant no harm. The confrontation ended peacefully. Whoever the commanding officer is there, he did well.

And the story of the Iraqi lawyer who risked his life to tell the US Marines about Jessica Lynch's location for rescue, because he saw her being beaten by her captors. That one is astounding to me. An incredible person of great character.

Both stories are encouraging to me about the potential of the human race, in the midst of the most difficult circumstances.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 4th April 2003
  #585
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Brian, I'm sure this is the type of thing we all take heart from, regardless of where we stand on the issue.
I don't think anybody here has had any disagreement with the feelings towards Saddam, the only arguments have been how to deal with Saddam and the division on the effects on the Iraqi people.
I genuinely hope that the whole thing ends quickly now and we can all start emphasising a common cause, rather than the differences.
I was also quite pleased to see Tony Blair recently distance himself from the notion of engaging other "axis" countries.
As much as I have disagreed with his stance on Iraq, I believe Blair to be one of the few, maybe the ONLY, voice of reason who can be listened to by the US from outside the US.
Old 6th April 2003
  #586
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malice's Avatar
 

I heard Collin Powel make a statement claiming that Syria has WMD and that they might go for it to.

This is insane tutt

malice

PS: OTOH, you americans would make udge progress in geography if GWB decide to invade all middle east countries one by one. I wonder if the idea behind it is not to teach him (GWB) some basics in that matter.

yeah I'm pissed today

malice
Old 6th April 2003
  #587
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

As an concession for what is going on in the western society at least the chronology should be adapted to those of the moslem counterpart, which means 14th century.

The state of consciousness we live in has nothing to do with any thausands of years of civilized and mental development.

Even more fitting actually would be to name our time something like 370 past Galilei´s condemnation. That would also relate to the tradition we live in.

Wellcome in the 4th century.

Ruphus
Old 6th April 2003
  #588
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
I heard Collin Powel make a statement claiming that Syria has WMD and that they might go for it to.

This is insane tutt

malice

PS: OTOH, you americans would make udge progress in geography if GWB decide to invade all middle east countries one by one. I wonder if the idea behind it is not to teach him (GWB) some basics in that matter.

yeah I'm pissed today

malice
Where exactly did you see or hear this. Do you have a link?

Because it's in direct opposition to this LINK, that quotes Powell directly as saying the US will NOT invade Syria.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 6th April 2003
  #589
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

That is weird, it was on CNN europe ... ????

Thanx for that link Brian, that is a little more comforting.

I'll try to check if I misenderstood ...

Sorry If it is that so ...

malice
Old 8th April 2003
  #590
Yesterday the coalition troops arrested a school teacher in Iraq who had a protractor, ruler and pencil in his pocket. He was charged with being in possetion of weapons of maths instruction.

Old 8th April 2003
  #591
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Yesterday the coalition troops arrested a school teacher in Iraq who had a protractor, ruler and pencil in his pocket. He was charged with being in possetion of weapons of maths instruction.

Nah, ... you must be joking.
Old 8th April 2003
  #592
Lives for gear
 

You know, this thread has settled down, but I kind of miss the excitement. In any event, I was mulling over some of the thoughts expressed, and one of them began to bother me.

If we went back through and collected the sumtotal of complaints and accusations against the US in this thread, it would be pretty staggering. And in fairness, some of the negative points brought up are surely and sadly true. There are many problems in this cultural stew, some nearly unique.

But what bothered me is how sad it is that it's been fashionable to trash the US for a while now, on any number of issues. It's almost like, simply by virtue of having become the sole superpower, and therefore inordinantly important in world affairs, the US has sealed it's fate as whipping boy. Too high profile and tempting of a target to pass up, it seems.

For instance. Complaints about US energy consumption like "uses 23% of the world's energy for only 3% of the world's population". I then pointed out that the US contributes about 25% of the world's total GDP. In line with it's energy use.

But what a sad thing to always be on the defensive about whatever issue. I started thinking, "OK, are we a bunch of selfish pigs here in the US?" Then I thought about some of what that energy use has brought to the world.

Whether you are on a Mac or a PC right now, where was it invented? Heck, the integrated circuit, CPU, ram memory, the internet, etc...the ability to have this conversation. The list goes on and on. Look at the inventions that have changed so much of our lives, even in music. Multitrack recording, the electric guitar, digital audio, Pro Tools, etc.

I suppose my point is that I find it sad that the US gets beat up for it's "excesses", while those doing the beating up use the very tools those "excesses" produced.

Am I the only one who sees any irony in this? I suppose if I saw much besides constant criticism, it would not seem so strange to me.

And now, I will likely be flamed for having the audacity to point out the US excesses don't just consume, they also provide. Is it now politically incorrect of me to notice?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 8th April 2003
  #593
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malice's Avatar
 

Not at all Brian, it is not politicaly incorect.
I didn't in either of my post hide the fact that I thing US people is a great people with a lot of things to give to their credit.
I did show a concern about some of the recent and past events, but this is, to my knowledge, the lot of great nations history.
In other words, having a leading role put you in the position to be criticized more than any other given country.
With that said, this leading role with the immense power that goes with it give you greater responsibilities toward the World, and I find it healthy to give it (you as US citizen, and me as part of the rest of the World) a good critical thinking in the form of an open debate.
In the recent decades, we have seen the fall of the USSR empire and as a result, no counter power in this World. And maybe that explain the reason when US act unilateraly, they get bashed. For that reasons I explain, I can't help but thinking some of the anti american argument points are based on the possibility that your country has taken a number of dangerous decisions that no nation has the power to fight (military, economicaly, or politicaly).
I wish that you would understand my point here, as I really things it is the source of your fully understandable bitterness ...

Best regards

malice
Old 8th April 2003
  #594
"It's almost like, simply by virtue of having become the sole superpower, and therefore inordinantly important in world affairs, the US has sealed it's fate as whipping boy. Too high profile and tempting of a target to pass up, it seems"

Well boo hoo!

Lets see how the US performs being "inordinantly important" before, during & AFTER this seemingly first lone justice adventure. No one is going to write the US a blank cheque to do what it wants in the far reaches of the globe.

I think republican congressmen are already rubbing their hands together over the juicy contracts they can award thier buddies and relations to rebuild Iraq.

BTW, with this new world order, what happens to the term "democracy" when one nation decides for other nations? Want to give that a new name Brian?

I think Malice said it all very well in the above post.
Old 8th April 2003
  #595
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
You know, this thread has settled down, but I kind of miss the excitement. In any event, I was mulling over some of the thoughts expressed, and one of them began to bother me.

If we went back through and collected the sumtotal of complaints and accusations against the US in this thread, it would be pretty staggering. And in fairness, some of the negative points brought up are surely and sadly true. There are many problems in this cultural stew, some nearly unique.

But what bothered me is how sad it is that it's been fashionable to trash the US for a while now, on any number of issues. It's almost like, simply by virtue of having become the sole superpower, and therefore inordinantly important in world affairs, the US has sealed it's fate as whipping boy. Too high profile and tempting of a target to pass up, it seems.

For instance. Complaints about US energy consumption like "uses 23% of the world's energy for only 3% of the world's population". I then pointed out that the US contributes about 25% of the world's total GDP. In line with it's energy use.

But what a sad thing to always be on the defensive about whatever issue. I started thinking, "OK, are we a bunch of selfish pigs here in the US?" Then I thought about some of what that energy use has brought to the world.

Whether you are on a Mac or a PC right now, where was it invented? Heck, the integrated circuit, CPU, ram memory, the internet, etc...the ability to have this conversation. The list goes on and on. Look at the inventions that have changed so much of our lives, even in music. Multitrack recording, the electric guitar, digital audio, Pro Tools, etc.

I suppose my point is that I find it sad that the US gets beat up for it's "excesses", while those doing the beating up use the very tools those "excesses" produced.

Am I the only one who sees any irony in this? I suppose if I saw much besides constant criticism, it would not seem so strange to me.

And now, I will likely be flamed for having the audacity to point out the US excesses don't just consume, they also provide. Is it now politically incorrect of me to notice?


Regards,
Brian T
Quote:
With that said, this leading role with the immense power that goes with it give you greater responsibilities toward the World, and I find it healthy to give it (you as US citizen, and me as part of the rest of the World) a good critical thinking in the form of an open debate.
In the recent decades, we have seen the fall of the USSR empire and as a result, no counter power in this World. And maybe that explain the reason when US act unilateraly, they get bashed. For that reasons I explain, I can't help but thinking some of the anti american argument points are based on the possibility that your country has taken a number of dangerous decisions that no nation has the power to fight (military, economicaly, or politicaly).
I wish that you would understand my point here, as I really things it is the source of your fully understandable bitterness ...


You forgot to think about the actual US consumption.
Do you really doubt about biggest resource waiste worlwide to exist in the USA? Do you believe vast products used internationally would come from there? While the US wouldn´t import goods?

But all this isn´t what actually makes the problem. The problem is the way waisted supply is ensured and the problem is the unequal allocation to a very small and infinitely insatiable minority that American politics are engaged for ( under the official name of the majority ).

Why do you have such a hard time to understand on principle that when someone ownes giant properties that many others then who have the same human requirements and the same right to eat and breath on this earth from there cannot have even elementary supply anymore? Not to forget other creatures who are effected in the same way.

And not only that, but our economical systems as they are mean sabotage of efficiency and of reasonable production.

As the impulse is not rational equivalent of practical task and solution, but as initially stated the maximum gathering of value the world has become perverse.

Don´t talk about clean appearing production measures and sales amounts, talk about means to keep prices and margins high, talk about inefficient manual work to keep people busy and dump, Talk about destroyed food and hidden patents, talk about manipulation of information, talk about corruption.

And forget about your themes of "this nation makes this and that nation makes that".

Please notice that in one response we have since quite a while already ( longer than the fashion of the term exists ) globalism. In the meaning that international affairs are not about religion, speech or different sorts of cheese, but that there are people who decide behind the faces presented as kings and presidents and that these ( sometimes even famous ) shadows behind the characters on screen in regard of what their action is about are all the same. They drink together and long since hardly ever talk about any national issues. Not even nearly as you do.

They name themselves businessmen.
Guess what they are concerned about?

Rights and realtions of states, citizens, creatures?

No, friends. They know better than you what that means.

Nothing really.

Ruphus
Old 8th April 2003
  #596
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

no matter what evolution theory you believe in ,
it was nothing than a fluke thats responsible for a
passport that says " citizen of the united states of america " .

Old 8th April 2003
  #597
So far the "weapons of mass desctruction" line we were fed on 24/7 leading up to the war seems to have been pure bulls**t.

Give Iraq to the UN, get out, go home, have a parade, chill out and buy oil from your new best chums.

A US controlled government looks to be a very bad idea indeed. If it does turn out this way, Blairs feet wont touch the floor on the way out, he will be Sh**canned faster than you can say 'you bloody lied to us'.

I don't think anybody in Europe at this time trusts Bush to not give his good old boys "business oportunities" in the name of 'US style freedom' or some sort of twisted commecial debt of honor.
Old 8th April 2003
  #598
Gear Addict
 

Brian Brian Brian
A guy as bright as you can't really be so niave. The main reason for this conflict has already been accomplished. Bush and his gang of thieves have already put the touch on the American tax payer for approx 174 billion. They are reaching right into your pocket and extracting that. At the same time they have brought into effect tax cuts that will ensure that none of their friends will pay the bill, working and middle class americans will pay that bill.
They will also suffer higher interest rates and an economy forced into recession.
It has been pointed out many times in these threads that those of us who think that the USA is controlled by a bunch of warmongering twits, do not have the same opinion about the people of the USA. Even Karl Marx in an ,editorial in a NY newspaper, described the USA, as having the potential to have the worlds great democracy. Too bad the experiment has failed so badly. I think anyone would be hard pressed to make an argument for rampant democracy when every major candidate must have access to millions of dollars, to run and less than half the people bother to vote. The ability of a significant amount of americans to clutch there hearts and say "my country right or wrong" is simply mystifying is many of us who believe that wrong is wrong. We can make the distinction, however, between the vast american public and the elite that has stolen your electoral process.
The foriegn aid issue has been lobbed back and forth here many times and let me state unequivically that no foriegn aid dollar leaves a western country without the promise and understanding that that dollar will buy western goods and return influence and profits to those same western countries. So that's all a wash, all countries giving foriegn aid have alterior motives.
American meddling in Latin America the middle and the far east and Africa, has cost untold millions of lives. The USA, not content to exert financial influence, has created and maintained many heads of state many times more vicious than Saddam, and that's reality Brian. America's elite run an empire and apon close scrutiny they run it in much the same way that every empire has been run, with might, not right.
The fact that the elite in the USA seems to be stuck in a nineteen fifties mind set on issues of environment also leads to significant criticism, and rightly so, the environmental policies of the Bush gang are downright scary, and will never garner any thing but resentment from most of the world.
Also the fact that at this moment legislation is being considered in Oregon that would allow anyone involved in civil disobedience to be charged and held as a terrorist is downright scary. The fact that one of your past presidents actually considered using the invasion of Cambodia, and the resulting public outcry, as a reason to cancel the election and declare a military state of emergency, seems some what ominus. The fact that daddy Bush dressed a member of the Kuwait royal family up as an ordinary citizen and had her go before a group of congressmen and tell tales of Iraqi soldiers bayoneting childern in hospitals, during the gulf war adventure, and the fact that that lie went completely unpunished, is excedingly disturbing. These guys will stop at no lie and no excess to continue their agenda. That agenda is not world peace and prosperity, that agenda is profit, and only profit, and they don't seem to be smart enough or moral enough not to leave a wake of destruction in their path.
I think that if you got to know those here who are critising the actions of the USA here you would find they are probably as vocal in criticism of their own states as well.
My own statements here are born of concern and a belief that it is the right and obligation of the individual to hold the actions of states to scrutiny. Let me again emphasize that I have nothing against the american people in general, however I'm somewhat puzzled by your ability to be bamboozaled, by such an obvious crew of crooks and hucksters. Take care Logan
Old 8th April 2003
  #599
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5down1up's Avatar
 



its kinda hard to figure out if some opinions in here are just made to bring some fire to the discussion , or if they are really honest about em ???

in fact of their actions the u.s goverment has lost all their credits
" WORLDWIDE " . i am not talking bout the industry or financial markets , they will keep on kissing ass anyway . the u.s proofed it by themselves WHY there is terroristic action against them .
they care so much about the anti-americans , that they even beat the **** out of americans ... hrhrhr ... what a wonderful world .
the whole world warned you , so dont cry america , if its bleeding when you cut yourself ...


dfegad the land of the free and the home of the brave

" i smoked it once but i didnt inhale " ...

LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE
Old 9th April 2003
  #600
Wow AWESOME post Logan!

Logan for President!



To repeat

"It has been pointed out many times in these threads that those of us who think that the USA is controlled by a bunch of warmongering twits, do not have the same opinion about the people of the USA"

And just one more time!

"It has been pointed out many times in these threads that those of us who think that the USA is controlled by a bunch of warmongering twits, do not have the same opinion about the people of the USA"

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