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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 31st March 2003
  #481
Gear Maniac
 
ultima's Avatar
 

ARGGHGHGHGHGHGHGHG.....

I want to scream!.......

I have tears in my eyes as i lok at these pictures

March for justice

I challenge you people who are pro war to take a look at these pictures.

I trembling...............

How on eartyh is this possibel for a country who "supposedly" is liberating whatever the ****.....

Im mad.......

Im mAd

Im Mad
Im Mad
im Mad

****in murderers!!!!!!!!!!
Old 31st March 2003
  #482
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

stike

its so sad ... ultima ...

this phrase is saying it ALL :

" La Voz de Aztlan has collected the following pictures from the >non-Jewish< dominated media to show the Mexican-American community "

i bet the next argument is that those pictures are iraqi war propaganda ... am i right fuuck

we wasted the biggest chance in history to make this planet a peaceful place ... THX A LOT AMERICA
Old 31st March 2003
  #483
Lets calm down the swearing OK? Swearing about anyone will give folks here an excuse to leave the debate.

I think it would be timely to stress that an anti Bush policy view does equate to anti Americanism or anti Armed Forces. Anyone that claims it does need only look at the the publisised view that the atacks on Iraq aren't anti Iraqi, merely anti Saddam.

Most nights the newscasters mention, "worldwide opinion on the invasion to liberate Iraq is still devided"

Well it stands to reason it would be devided here, a global microcosim such as a website, contributed to by people round the world.

Let the debate rage on!

Peace to you and yours!

Old 31st March 2003
  #484
Gear Maniac
 
ultima's Avatar
 

Sorry bout that ...i lost it there for a moment
Old 31st March 2003
  #485
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
3. What do you propose as the best course of action at this point to improve/help the plight of the Iraqi people, including the Kurds, the Shiites, and the POW deserters?

At this point in time I would say they are all MORE in peril now than before Saddam was attacked. How to resolve the mess? I suppose press on with the military action. I put it to you that you didnt care a rats ass about the people you mention above a few months back. I doubt a single Iraq citizen even crossed your mind 6 months ago and that you would have more sorrow over hearing about a friends pet dieing than hearing a year ago that an Iraqi had died at the hand of Saddam.

Now they are "cause de jour" served to you in a sesame seed bun.
Jules,

Thanks for your replies and for encouraging us to remain calm in discussion of such an emotional topic. It's not easy...sometimes I have to go back and edit what I just wrote because there's no point in attacking each other here.

Your points are well-taken.

I'll be the first to admit that condition of the Iraqi people is far from my main worry in life. Yet, I have reason to hope they will be much better off without Saddam, both in terms of their financial situation and in terms of human freedom and dignity. This is an opinion I would hold for nearly any country in the grasp of a butcher like Saddam, with or without any PR from Washington.

I wonder honestly how much the Iraqi people's plight is a concern for the protesters of the US/UK actions, as it presumably should be their primary reason for protesting. To me, the protesters appear much more concerned about criticizing anything Bush does than they are about doing something to save lives or improve the human condition in Iraq. At these rallies, all you hear are criticisms. It's so easy to criticize. You know, I don't love government and am a bit of an anarchist deep down, but in the end something has to be done.

Most of the 24 million Iraqis don't appear to feel a lot of love for Saddam. We see a very small vocal minority on our TV screens....a few yelling people at each bomb site in Bagdad and the guys on several buses back to Iraq that get the attention of the media cameras.

Even in Bagdad, the Iraqis are not demonstrating massively during the daytime lull in bombing when they go to the markets and see friends/family. They are certainly being encouraged to protest by Saddam's machine and there are no US soldiers in the city to discourage them. Where is the mass protest in Iraq? And where are the Iraqis in the anti-war demonstrations worldwide?
Old 31st March 2003
  #486
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As a pro-war, pro-Bush, pro-American way of life supported, I can honestly say that what many people on these esteemed pages fail to realize is that we are not in this fight just for the US...Extremist Arab terrorists have been at it for quite a long time-the US finally had the courage to stand up to it...

For the most part, we have left things alone in the Middle East - but when a group decides to bring the fight into OUR yard, the rules as they understood them change forever...

If our President sat by and did nothing to ensure the long term safety of the people under his charge, then he would be just as responsible for citizenry deaths as those who perpetrated the act...it is truly unfortunate that many people feel that the concept of "the best defense is a good offense" is murder...There again, when one does not have a critically developed analysis independant of socialist press and mantras, one resorts to name calling and chants of murder.

I compel my colleagues to apply critical thinking skills (outside of the politically and emotionally charged boxes of American hatred) and extrapolate an alternative course...Extend yourselves and reach beyond the most salient of answers and you will perhaps see what the true reason for the Coalition's actions are: global safety. It is not murder, it is self preservation...if someone threatens you, one tends to ignore it...when someone threatens you, your family, your neighbors, and your community, one takes action. Without actions by the US, Britain, and the entire Coalition, the next terrorist attack will most likley be in your area, perhaps killing you or your loved ones. I ask: are YOU willing to risk the lives of your family in the hopes that you will be left alone? Our troops, on the other hand, are willingly risking THEIR lives to make sure it doesn't happen...If that's 'murder,' then so be it.

The problem is that Iraq, Iran, and N Korea have benefitted from technological advances in warfare without the social disciplines to contain such advances. A truly great society will develop technology (in this case weapons) but use them for defensive purposes only - Iraq has a proven track record of using such weapons on its own people.

I beseech the global community represented on these pages: take the time and initiative to critically examine recent historical events, and develop your own predictions of what is to come. If a rabid skunk is in your neighborhood, do you make friends with it hoping it won't bite your children, or do you protect those around you? The Coalition is taking care of this global menace, yet there are those who by their own accord would rather be bitten.
Old 31st March 2003
  #487
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Quote:
Jules, Thanks for your replies ...
You have NOT looked at the pictures above before going on, I´m almost sure.
Why can´t people like you not once stop and consider that these evil targets have been planted by the positions you defend.

How about making the fact that Bin Laden and co, are your positions product as a basis for whatever you think you have to argue?
The same counts on your talk about nuclear threat.
I will never forget how Gorbatchov as the Soviet leader offered the destroyment of all nuclear weapons.

And the US answer was NO.

This is not the only fact that makes absolutely clear what the US politics respectively those who steer it in reality ( forget about the puppets on the public stage, Presidents who are being hitten by peanuts and all that show, those are only extras ) is about. It is evil.

Once there has been written a book about the killing of communism. But the book about the capitalistic killing and ruining lifes and sociological development / societies is not written yet. The numbers would exceed the death addressed to communists by thousands of times.

We could have a fair living for all, with natural emotional lives and high living standards. No starving no species dying out.
If we hadn´t the principle of greed support for a few zombies and their support by their privilegeds and the brain washed masses.

It is a real pitty and I fear it will last until the earth is burned.
Yes, people will get aware one day of what they missed and what **** they supported, but it very likely will be too late.

Go on argumenting, defenders of cruelty and pecuniary regime, pretend to know what empathy would be, while you have no idea what it is about, tell us how you love your kids while you don´t give a dime on others.

I tell you what, for me the difference between conscious conservatives and fashists is marginal, not worth a thought.

And ... noone would be let in our pseudo democratic parliaments if he hadn´t been proven to be corrupt. You could see that back when the greens entered the parliament here in Germany. Although being illegal action they were not let into commitees until they were "prepared".

Finally, take this: Democracy not only requires not manipulated and direct elections, as a basis for democracy it needs true information to the voters first.

Before that it is nothing like real democracy. And don´t come with the usual odd argument, pointing to other kind of regimes like the **** one and saying "we got to keep things as they are, because that was worse".

The politics you defend are not even on cave man´s level.
Cave man was a social individual. He´d never made it through evolution without.

Now go on bringing the globe to its end.

Ruphus
Old 31st March 2003
  #488
Gear Addict
 

Morgan
You are absolutely correct that I have no personal experience of the character or intelligence of George jr. I have studied his involvement in stock swindles, his involvement ,and that of his close friends, in the Enron fraud. I also followed quite closely the american election and read his statements about foreign policy. None of this reasearch has led me to have a high opinion of George. If he is as some have said, an ernest Christian praying for guidance, then he is even more dangerous than I have previously characterised him. About in the same category as those fools who martyer themselves for Allah.
There are no good guys here, and there is no inherent criticism of americans in general here.
I find it immoral and vicious, when a country feels it has to set up governments that are friendly to their interests, then when those governments run amok or deviate from the plan, then cloak themselves in the flag and ridiculous PR inspired homelies about freedom and proceed to wade in to setup someone else who will be more acceptable to their interests
There was an arms sale symposium going on in Moroco less than 3 months ago and american arms dealers were there arming the very folks they will be fighting. Unfortunately a significant amount of the american GNP is tied up in arms sales, and that's what this conflict is all about. Your ambassador here in Canada has started a litany about the poor shape of the Canadian arms forces, the subtle message is, "you guys are not buying enough weapons from us". If you don't want people to shoot at you then don't arm them to the teeth. If you don't want maniacs to have chemical weapons, don't sell them to them. It is a simple and verifiable fact that significant numbers of the folks Bush has surrounded himslf with have done exactly those kind of things. Including chemical weapons.
9/11 was comprissed of two air planes hitting two large buildings in NY, incredibly large bombs are being dropped on buildings all over Bagdad, I surmise that if you were living in Bagdad you might believe you were having the bejesus bombed out of you. Actually it seems that you are doing a significant amount of bombing of you own allies as well, in fact as I write this there are British soldiers and command complaining about being bombed by american pilots. In fact I recently heard heard an interview with a Brit , commander who won't allow his troops to fight along side of american troops for fear of their safety. "Gung ho cowboys" he called them.We in Canada have suffered deaths recently as well when american pilots dropped bombs on our troops fighting along side of you in afganistan, it's clear from the tesimony at the hearings of this matter that significant amounts of american pilots are completely wired on speed as they are flying around in these deadly planes, not a pretty picture. When you own troops were slaughtered in Africa, it was clearly a result of the fact that your troops on the ground opposed the desire of the rest of the international forces there to disarm the combatants, and consquently there are still strong men running around with american weapons terrorising the general populace. I submit that global arm sales are a significant factor if not the main factor in american foriegn policy. There has got to be a better way, and it has to start with an end to american meddling in global politics to make the world safe and receptive for American business. That was the premise of my original post. I also believe that there are significant amounts of americans who feel exactly the same way. During the Vietnam conflict I was heavily involved in providing safe haven the those, who had served in Nam and had first hand experience of the immorality of American actions there. As this drags on I fully expect to have to provide that humanitarian service again. Take care Logan
Old 31st March 2003
  #489
"I wonder honestly how much the Iraqi people's plight is a concern for the protesters of the US/UK actions, as it presumably should be their primary reason for protesting."

What a rose tinted view! "Presumably should be"!!!!

The whole weight of anti war campaigns is primarily about preventing Bush's cowboy actions dragging the whole world into a WW3. He already has designs on kicking ass elsewhere and it's scary.

"The problem is that Iraq, Iran, and N Korea have benefitted from technological advances in warfare without the social disciplines to contain such advances"

"social disciplines" - ?? speaking of which, lets bring that right home shall we? Didn't Bush's daughters get busted for underage drinking, more than once? Jack Straw, the British forign secretary speaking for the US at the UN had a son busted for dealing dope!

All this USA as "worlds police force" is a total crock if the world is not first consulted. Otherwise it charges forward as an ever isolated, imperious & arrogant force and represents a real dangerous leadership, with weapons of mass distruction. I support consultation with the UN before military action in future.
Old 31st March 2003
  #490
Gear Addict
 

Morgan
Come on now, seems to me that you are starting to rely on the old "nobody likes us" and those who disagree with us are "Socialists". I don't believe for a minute that you guys are out there protecting us, in fact I believe that american meddling in this area will cause significant greef and more danger around the world. During 9/11 when your government thought it had planes full of terrorist in the skies , they simply refused to let them land, they were all sent to Canada, I'm glad they had our best interests and safety at heart. We provided security and sustainance to the citizens that were turned away from their own country.Thousands of Canadians particularly fire fighters went to NY to help. Now our thanks is have the american ambassador chiding us in public for not supporting our "family" the word he used, and suggest that we are not pulling our weight militarily around the world. Sometimes it's hard to stomach the limited and myopic view of your leadership, but as far as your attempt to turn this into a nobody likes us debate, you don't have a leg to stand on. Take care Logan
Old 31st March 2003
  #491
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Jon wrote: "I wonder honestly how much the Iraqi people's plight is a concern for the protesters of the US/UK actions, as it presumably should be their primary reason for protesting."

What a rose tinted view! "Presumably should be"!!!!

The whole weight of anti war campaigns is primarily about preventing Bush's cowboy actions dragging the whole world into a WW3.
If we were all afraid of WW3 so much that everyone knew we wouldn't back up our resolutions with action, then our resolutions lose all credibility. This is what happened in the UN with respect to Saddam. The debate divided those who were just talking but didn't really mean it from those who were serious about what they said.

If Bush really was in Iraq just to kick ass, the war would be over by now....and he wouldn't be bothering with humanitarian aid, food or water deliveries to the population. No, to accomplish his objectives he has to win the hearts of the Iraqi people.

Unfortunately, like you say, the protesters aren't concerned with saving life or the plight of the populations involved, they just like criticizing Bush.
Old 31st March 2003
  #492
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ultima's Avatar
 

Quote:
the protesters aren't concerned with saving life or the plight of the populations involved, they just like criticizing Bush.
hahaha...that cracks me up.

Do you really think this has anything to do with Bush???

hundreds of thousands protesting ALL over the world because they dont like Bush????

Its the KILLING of innocent people that just ever so slightly bothers some of us.

Im genuinely interested in why on earth you would simplify it like that??





Coalition of the killing
Old 31st March 2003
  #493
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Hey ultima,

I totally agree that the peace protesters SHOULD be about saving lives. My reply was to Jules' affirmation that the protests are really about Bush's desire to kick ass. Jules wrote that I'm actually naive or optimistic (the "rose-tinted glasses" line) to believe it should be about saving lives.

Ultima, my question to you is, where were all the protesters when Saddam made war on Iran, when he killed the Kurds, when he gassed the Shiites? What about his Fedayeen shooting on the Iraqi people right now in Basra, or threatening to kill their children if they don't do suicide missions against the coalition?

Many more people died at the hands of Saddam (over a million) than will ever die in the current situation, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people Saddam will kill in the next 10-20 years if left in place.

That doesn't bother you at all?

If you are for saving innocent lives, how can you be so silent about Saddam's butchery of millions? Or the situations in Chenya, Moscow, Israel, Palestine, Cyprus/Turkey, the Ivory Coast, and Rwanda for that matter?

The peace protesters are focussing on only one war with a few thousand casualties and ignoring the dozens of other wars taking place around the globe. Why? Because it's the US and GWB. How does that read on your hypocrisy meter?
Old 31st March 2003
  #494
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
So where were all the protesters when Saddam made war on Iran, when he killed the Kurds, when he gassed the Shiites?


There have been protests against Saddam as well as gainst other US supported dictators.
But that probably wasn´t reported too much on the media you watch.

Have you been protesting against US politics help installing and supporting Saddam?

I guess, no.

Ruphus
Old 31st March 2003
  #495
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ultima's Avatar
 

Maybe , just maybe the world has changed since then??

Possible?

I honestly believe that it has.

The internet has made the world a smaller place where we talk to people from across the globe every day.

Shure, through the times it has been easier to think that this is happening far away and doesnt concern me....stupid but it seems that a lot of us are eh...stupid.

Maybe people would have thought ( i know i did) that American leadership was smarter and more ( for a lack of a better word ) civilised then this.

Maybe it is partly Bush bashing ???

But god knows he deserves it!!



Quote:
Many more people died during those actions (over a million) that will ever die in the current situation (perhaps a few thousand), not to mention the hundred of thousands of people Saddam would kill in the next 10-20 years if left in place.

This just goes to show that you dont know the facts...

Do you have any idea how many iraqi soldiers died in the first gulf war by the hand of American troops???

Do you have any idea how many civilians died as a result of the bombing???

Do you have any idea how many children died as a direct result of the sanctions??

Do you have any idea how many "afghani´s" were killed during that particular conflict....

Do you have any idea who runs that country after their "liberation"???

Do you know how many afghanis were killed in the containers they were put in while on their way to Cuba???(suffocated after trying to eat each other for fluids)

Did you know that the ridiculous "Food for Oil " program allocates 40 pence for each Iraqi family per day and that amount should suffice for housing, healthcare, food etc.....

Only reason that was setup was so that there wouldnt be public outcry against the sanctions which has killed people not in the hundreds and not in the thousands but in hundreds of thousands.

Dont talk to me about hipocrasy...
Old 31st March 2003
  #496
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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The first gulf war was started by Iraq, but never mind.

I notice that the Europeans never bring up WWI and WWII, two of the "smaller" examples of war that we've ever seen. I know the Europeans hate being reminded, but it's too bad those cowboy Americans got involved then, isn't it? If we had listened to the peace protestors back then instead of taking action, you'd all still be sending your taxes to Berlin. And please note that the US gave your countries back to you after driving out the Germans.



Guys, I've been around. Have lived in Moscow and St Petersburg and Kiev, been all around the former Soviet Union. I toured cities in Siberia in 1995 and 1996 that had never seen a western concert since 1907. I've done production in Baku, Grozny and Almaty. I lived for 3 years in West Berlin 1987-1990 while it was still walled until after the walls fell and the DDR residents came in and quickly made us foreigners all feel like we'd better leave. Reminders of war everywhere in Berlin. I've seen what dictators and appeasement and war can do.

Rufus, you are living in Berlin...do you still feel oppressed by those US, British and French troops who protected you during the cold war? How much love do you have for the Soviets who shot your brothers when they tried to escape from the DDR? Did you protest back then?

So while you protesters are criticizing selected events and leaders and ignoring others...

...what do you propose as a solution?
Old 31st March 2003
  #497
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Am I the only one here just a little bit uncomfortable when the all the world's evils are based on a "Zionist conspiracy"?

Are there American Jews in favor of the war? Sure!

But anyone want to look at the disproportionate amount of American Jews that have been key figures in the anti-war movement, both now and historically? (Anyone remember the Chicago 7?)

For all those who stress the importance of remembering history, doesn't anyone remember the results of hysterical stereotyping and blaming of Jews?

Maybe someone from Iceland has an excuse for not knowing that histroy, but certainly someone from Germany has no excuse.

I would never dream of stereotyping all contemporary Germans as antisemetic proponants of genocide. Please return the same respect and not assume that any Jew who might be involved in a policy you disagree with to be representative of an all-inclusive Zionist conspiracy. There are a whole lot more Roman Catholics in the US government. Does that make the war a Papal conspiracy?

Yes, the pictures are horrible. So are pictures of executed prisoners of war, pictures of crematoria in concentration camps, pictures of napalmed vietnamese, pictures of victims of racist skinhead viloence, pictures of victims of bombings in North Ireland, pictures of victims of starvation or war or AIDS in Africa...

There is a lot of horror in the world. The USA does not have a monopoly in the perpetration of horror. That does not excuse the USA when it does something horrible. But let's not descend into oversimplistic arguments. I think the firebombing of Dresden and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for instance, was wrong. But did those actions invalidate the entire moral rationale for war against Hitler and his allies?
Old 31st March 2003
  #498
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Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up


the u.s is wasting electricity , they still drive cars which eat the oil , the industrial standarts in fact of polution are a joke , they dont give a **** .
So you don't need this war in order to hate America. You were already there before this started.

Agendas. Everybody has them.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 31st March 2003
  #499
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon

But

...what do you propose as a solution?
On principle?

1. No more surplus value on work. Nobody has the right to profit from others work. The only amounts to be decucted would be costs on means and tax.

2. High regard on news. Desinformation must be pursued immidiately.

3. No more playing down on economical crime.

4. Strict criminal procedure on corruption

5. No more imunity of politics

6. Responsibility for politics to openly act on all that they do. There is no reason for secrets when you represent population.

7. Privatizing of states goods only under strict obeservation in public and never under market value.

8. Only direct votes on representatives as well as on important decissions.

9. Nobody should be in a position to get overly rich and mighty anymore under the above conditions, but just in case there should also be a upper limit of personal possession values. For example not more than 5 million $ or less.

10. No religion in schools, but ethic classes instead. Meditation in school would be a good approach too. Having Wilhelm Reich as lecture would also definitly have big impact.

11. Control over movies where brutal and unethical characters are displayed as heros.

12. No more time limitation on fraud offence pursuit. ( What is this that when e.g. someone steals your stuff or cheats you, a while later it wont count anymore?)

13. No more punishment on criminals. Instead education and social work for offenders. ( Only insights can change a thing.)


Ruphus
Old 31st March 2003
  #500
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Saddam Ain't Dead!!!

Has Saddam gone to Sony???

(just thought a lighter note may help)

(when does Saddam eat his dinner?

when Tariq has his..)

(Azis!)
Old 31st March 2003
  #501
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Forgot something important:

14. The right for raising children as well as keeping any living species only after proving a minimum of knowledge and personal suitability.

( Cant be like it is, needing a license for any step you make, but on the other hand kids and animals being prone to keppers who never did a single action before to understand what upbringing / keeping means. Look at all those mistreated creatures and the rising mass of humans who not even learned the basics of social behaviour.)
Old 31st March 2003
  #502
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bassmac's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
So you don't need this war in order to hate America. You were already there before this started.
Exactly, which is why their feelings remain unchanged...34 pages later! dfegad

Hey Ultima, those are real nice pictures you got there, do you happen to have any of the three thousand or so Americans who had their flesh melted off by burning jet fuel on 9/11 - without any warning?



I glad I'm an American, I'm glad Bush is my president, and I'm glad he doesn't give a rats ass about all your misguided, anti-american opinions when it comes to defending his own freakin' country.
Attached Thumbnails
another WAR 2003-flag.jpg  
Old 31st March 2003
  #503
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

I for my part am not against American people at all. For me actually nothing like national specifics worth judging on humans exists. And alone in this thread there showed American people in the way like I would like to embrace.

I am anti-greed and anti-stupidness. That includes those who bend to any kind of coloured shreds.

Cheers,

Ruphus
Old 31st March 2003
  #504
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Quote:
Originally posted by bassmac

Hey Ultima, those are real nice pictures you got there, do you happen to have any of the three thousand or so Americans who had their flesh melted off by burning jet fuel on 9/11 - without any warning?

Without any warning ?

I think not.

All the problem we're discussing is about the fact that US act in world politics without paying attention to other countries, peoples, cultures feelings.
I'm floored when I see an american wondering WHY arab beople hate their guts.
C'mon, you gotta have a clue ...
I'm not excusing 9/11, but I state here that if your care is about healing the world, you should pay attention to the cause of those wounds before trying to apply a massive dose of medication ...
That goes with realising your own mistakes.

Don't you think that makes sense ? tutt

malice

PS: you have also to admit that our concern about your internal politics makes sense, as your politicians have a power of modeling the world that is unique in the history of nations. In other words, if your president is not legaly elected (it's an hypothesis), and is planning to make 3 or 4 wars (possibly illegitimate as this one) during his mandate, and we are powerless to oppose these actions, all we got is trying to convince you that you are wrong ...

interesting philosophycal issue, isn't it ?
Old 31st March 2003
  #505
"the u.s is wasting electricity , they still drive cars which eat the oil , the industrial standarts in fact of polution are a joke , they dont give a **** .
------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you don't need this war in order to hate America. You were already there before this started.

Agendas. Everybody has them.

Regards,
Brian T"

Oh dear, more Bush bashing ahoy, Brian that poultion treaty that Bush backed out of was I am afraid another unpopular move globally. A simplistic view is that Bush decided that Americans gassing their cars cheaply & big industrys profit margin, was a priority over any reduction in polution which might be a $$ incovienence...

He's just downright unpopular with a lot of folks around the world.

Oh well, when is his term over?

"Agenda. Everyone has them" is a little siniter sounding, more like Opinions, everyone here has strong ones...

I'm kinda tuckered out on this, someone take over!

heh
Old 31st March 2003
  #506
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

heh heh
Old 31st March 2003
  #507
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

I'm kinda tuckered out on this, someone take over!
That's kind of the irony of what's going on here, Jules.
As substantial as some may think 34 pages of to-ing and fro-ing on a forum is, it is not long enough to convince somebody that the way they have been raised, the things that they believe to be rightfully theirs and their general mentality towards the outside world is wrong.

America lives at the expense of others, and these "others" happen to contain a very large number of muslims, hence fundamentalist groups who have a common cause. Ultimately this is an impossible way to sustain a culture and way of life, and at some point in the future Americans are going to have to start facing up to this and realise that in order to survive they need to change and sacrifice some things. I think the intensity of the pro-Bush sentiments here could be partly a realisation of what I'm saying and the process has already begun.

What will be the US response to the next "9/11"?
(I'm obviously guessing, but I'm pretty sure that, again, it will be the WRONG response.)

I don't know if anyone else feels like I do, I am certainly not anti-American but feel like I am increasingly becoming anti-pro-American. This is what Bush has done for America, IMO.
Old 1st April 2003
  #508
Lives for gear
 

Many Americans don't get the mindset of Europeans.

Many Europeans don't get the mindset of Americans.

But the fact that the state of California alone has a larger economy than the nation of France may provide us with some clues as to why the Europeans may seem bitter now and again.

Hey, sorry, but if we're diving into "Americans suck, live at others expense, aren't very intelligent", etc, maybe we should at least point out that part of the motivation is likely to be jealousy, namely that these unintelligent people have managed to become the reference point for nearly everything in a very short history.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 1st April 2003
  #509
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Messiah
America lives at the expense of others
What do you mean...I'd like to understand this point better.

Do you mean America consumes the most resources? Is the world's biggest customer? Takes out more consumer debt per capita? So that if Americans slow down in buying, the world economy goes in a tailspin?

With regards to pollution and the Kyoto accord, I think the US has been very wrong in not signing the agreement. The US needs to make the environment and the ozone problem a much higher priority.

OTOH, I believe America gives out more money in foreign aid than any other country in the world, foots more of the UN bill than anyone, plus perhaps the World Bank and the IMF too. Everyone loves to hate them, but where do people look to for security and financial bailouts when they are in trouble...
Old 1st April 2003
  #510
Lives for gear
 
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Ruphus:

While your 14 point plan for utopia is obviously thoughtful and an honest attempt to create a fair society, I'm not sure i'd want to live in it. Even though I'm no where near your $5 million limit!

A society that is based on censorship of independent and creative thought (to serve the greater good, of course!) is very troubling. Who decides and enforces the morality? Does the majority have a complete tyranny over the minority?

Many of the great advances in both arts and sciences were made by people whom the majority considered outrageous or antisocial. Like Copernicus or Wilhelm Reich.

So while I understand your distaste at movies that glorify violience, perhaps the answer is education and free exchange of information and ideas, rather than censorship.

If the idea of censorship is so easily embraced on a bulletin board of "artists", I really fear for our cultural (and political) future.
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