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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 26th March 2003
  #361
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littledog's Avatar
 

This is a complex issue with many shades of grey between the black and white. I'm not so completely cynical as to believe that the motivation of both US and French governments are PURELY economic, nor am I naive enough to believe that economics doesn't enter into it.

There was a long period of history when the USA tried to stay on the sidelines in conflicts that it viewed as not directly threatening its own safety. This would included fighting Hitler in WWII. It took Pearl Harbor to get us involved in a direct military fashion. I don't necesssarily blame any country for not rushing in to join the US forces in Iraq, especially given that the US never really supplied concrete evidence showing exactly to what level Iraq was connected to Al Qaeda, or even evidence of weapons of mass destruction.

My personal belief is that Saddam is very much tied up in terror networks, and that he does have weapons of mass destruction and is willing to use them even on his own people. But I think the US did a lousy job of making its case, so I can't really blame Turkey or France or others for not enthusiastically leaping into the fray.

What is disturbing in the French case is the level of technical and economic involvement between France and Iraq. But the USA is not exactly guiltless here either - after all, we supplied Iraq with a lot of weaponry when we perceived Iran to be the greater threat.

Now that the war is this far along, I think it is too late to turn back, and I hope that Saddam can be overthrown with further minimal loss of life. But I can also understand the perspective of a multitude of smaller countries who look at recent history and see the US invading Afghanistan, followed by Iraq, and wondering who's next? North Korea? Syria? Lybia? San Francisco?

If you are by far the strongest guy on the block, both economically and militarily, it is hard to be perceived as anything other than a bully if you unilaterally exercise your power with any frequency. There are a lot of possible outcomes, but even assuming that the USA wins this war, not all of them are good. It would be nice if the Iraqi people embraced the United States as liberators and set up a friendly representative government.

But I'm not holding my breath.

The point is, these issues are highly complex, and there's plenty of room to debate the nuances without resorting to personal attacks. Of course, being new here, I don't know any of the subtext between Malice and Bassmac. It could be just friendly banter, or maybe they have a long history of personal loathing. So I'll recuse myself on that....

I just think that reasoned examination of ANY government's motives is not a bad thing. It does not mean one doesn't value the lives of fellow citizens who are fighting, especially since most of them were not exactly consulted or asked their opinion before they were sent over.
Old 26th March 2003
  #362
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littledog's Avatar
 

Oops... Malice's last post came in while I was still typing mine. (Yeah, I'm a slow typist).

In light of further evidence, I think I'll withdraw the "maybe it's just friendly banter" remark...
Old 26th March 2003
  #363
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bassmac's Avatar
 

Malice, If you think we're there ONLY for weapons, I suggest you do your homework, instead of simply taking cheap shots at Americans - from your safe European home.

tutt

fuuck
Old 26th March 2003
  #364
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malice's Avatar
 

Littledog, great post.

I have no history with bassmac. I'm fed up with France bashing that's final.
Not that France have nothing to be shamefull in its history, but I thing concerning arab countries, US has a lot to be shamefull.
I provided infos about Dick Cheney receiving money from a company that he ran, and that US gvt gave contract during the War.
I provided infos about US/UK arming Saddam with WMD, and wondering hypocritly if he still has them.
The results of this politic is costing human lifes, today, and his something we should definitly care about.
All Bassmac did is insulting me without giving any usable facts to enlight the debate.
The reality, is that US will need France help to reconstruct this country, cause you can't imagine well how arab populations hate your guts.
You created Bin Laden. You created Saddam power. You took the party of Israel in most of the conflicts with palestinian. Now you are bombing and invading Iraq to clean the mess you did in the 80'.
Well, after war is going to be VERY difficult if you try to administrate this country alone, as well as if your plan is to impose your visions about the middle east like UK did in 1917 and after WW2.
Reducing France vision and opinion to some merchant issue is really frightning me as it shows a total lack of common sense.

As long as Western countries don't admit their mistakes and try to reduce this war to a "crusade" as your president did and mentioned it, we are going nowhere, worse, we're going back to middle-age.

malice
Old 26th March 2003
  #365
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Bassmac,

why don´t you go and read a little bit.
I mean not in industrial spreadings like wall steet and the like, I mean information.

Maybe you would fall from your chair to find out who has initiated and helped all those stupid islamic groups like Talibans, Mudshahedins and co. You could be surprised to understand that islam would since a while now had been fading away without US politics. Even Chomeini would never had been more than a forgotten nobody without the US state politics.

And more than that you might check about Bin Laden hunter John O´Neill who ended up in the twin towers and had been managed to been called to his office there in the early morning of 9.11.

Uppon closing in on the Al Queda leader in the summer of 2001 he had been pulled back on behalf of Bush´s management and it is for certain that he had been to tell some unbecoming details.

Maybe your insights could change if you studied about coincidences of American presidents in inner political tight spots and for patriotism calling occurances throughout the past.

And might be you would like to learn about the circumstances of main parts of American industries, respectively what they need to fleece the national budget.
This I´ll tell you in advance already: It is "ENEMIES".

And don´t you ever come to doubt on a state who has a growing part of population in poverty, simultaneously declaring that there would be no money for helping there while mobilizing hundreds of billions for bombardements?

Maybe you´d like to find out who and why prepared the ground for conflict and war in former Yugoslavia.

And as you are about studying to find out about what moves the world, have a check please also about how comes that 2 years ago 5 trillion dollars vaporized from stock markets without anybody in our so damn logical democratic world ever would have asked in such an obvious case about how and where that cash went to.

Finally, let me tell you that it would had needed only a microscopic fraction of current investments to get rid of Sadam Hussein without any harm to civile people there. BTW; Have you got an idea where Sadam has been schooled? He has been educated by CIA, in case it would matter to you, and made his whole career by support of US.
Further, it has been proven that before attacking Kuweit he even called Bush Senior and asked him for an ok and he actually received it. You might puzzle yourself why that ok was not held to promise back then.

Boy, you don´t have an idea of what you are praying to, believe it. Mentalities like your current state can be fed with terms like the French, the Germans, the Americans and everything already becomes clear.

The French are behind repair biz!?
Yeah, they all are! What do you think the politics of our systems are about, for whom they function? For the people in their countries, for ethics, philanthrophy, peace and social development!!?
Where do you live, in Disneyland?

Ruphus
Old 26th March 2003
  #366
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by bassmac
Malice, If you think we're there ONLY for weapons, I suggest you do your homework, instead of simply taking cheap shots at Americans - from your safe European home.
Where are you posting from, Bassora ?

The only cheap shots are yours in that matter fuuck




So why your army are there ?

to liberate Iraqi people from Saddam ?

Saddam would not be there without US and UK help.

May be you are talking about other reasons, I would be glad to hear them.

malice
Old 26th March 2003
  #367
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Little dog,

you seem not to know, but Pearl Harbor was arranged on the principle of the Reichstag burning. Among more details that I don´t have all at hand at the moments like administratve control having prepared many points like placing older ships and pulling away the better vessels etc.pp. there is that quote from one of the closed staff around Roosevelt going like "When will they finally attack!?"

Ruphus
Old 27th March 2003
  #368
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littledog's Avatar
 

yes Ruphus, i'm aware of the many theories of american complicity in the Pearl Harbor bombing. There's a good case to be made, but, like the Kennedy assasination, there's still room for debate.

Perhaps it was a bad analogy because of that, but I chose to use it make a general point that most people would understand, without getting bogged down in historical controversy.

But, it would make a fun topic for another discussion. There's some interesting, if not conclusive evidence. Certainly more to support it than, say, those who insist that the holocaust was a myth propogated by Zionist propagandists! (Yes, even in America there are people who ardently believe that!)

Anyway, it's good to know that musicians worldwide are shattering the stereoptype of being non-verbal non-intellectual slugs who only care about gigging, booze, drugs, and sex.

if the internet has done nothing else, it has given us an opportunity to share thoughts directly with individuals on other continents without being filtered through government influence or censorship.

Although it's fine (and inevitable) to disagree on poltical issues, I would hope that we could set a tiny example of civility between individuals, in the hopes that someday governments might follow our example. Yeah, I know, it's a stretch...
Old 27th March 2003
  #369
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
And as you are about studying to find out about what moves the world, have a check please also about how comes that 2 years ago 5 trillion dollars vaporized from stock markets without anybody in our so damn logical democratic world ever would have asked in such an obvious case about how and where that cash went to.
Ruphus,
I'm not starting an argument with you regarding the war or economics. I'm simply asking what you're implying by this comment above? And I'm not hoping to hijack this excellent thread about the war, either.

I will try to offer an opinion as an answer to your question, though.

The artifical valuation of US stocks in the late 1990's, driven by dot.com fever, and ultimately by investor greed, has been pretty well documented by academics and the U.S. press. And yes, there was outright fraud on the part of some companies, but that's not exactly new, and investigations are showing these acts often started long before the artificial run-up in prices started and weren't uncovered until the prices had already dropped dramtically.

The "loss" in a stock's value when the price goes down is no more "real" than its gain when the price goes up. It's only real when a stock is sold, when money changes hands between buyer and seller, and the sellers realizes the gain or loss in price.

The "vaporization" of stock market value didn't happen when the prices went down. The "vaporization" (read this as "creating the vapor") happened when greedy investors knowingly bought stocks of companies who didn't have a product, didn't have sales... hell, some didn't even have a business plan on what they were going to even do to make money! Investors bought them only because they thought they could sell them for more than they bought them.

So when you read a story that the U.S. stock market lost $5 trilion (if that is the number that somebody reported), what really happened is:

- investors bought Internet stocks for $5 that were really worth $1
- they watched the stock price go to $175 (and THEN FELT collectively that they were worth $5 trillion)
- then watched it go down to less than $1 and suddenly felt they had lost $5 trillion.

The facts are that investors were never rich unless they sold out along the way and realized a gain.. The story is that investors were never rich when the stock was $175, and certainly very few investors became rich by having the foresight to sell the worthless stocks at $175 to some other poor souls who thought the price would to to $200 someday.

It was investor greed that caused the prices to go up, until reality checks brought the prices back down. You could see the impending disaster when people that had no business in the stock market were discussing their stock picks around the office. I knew it was over when a secretary in our office said her grandmother had decided to cash out her retirement savings and become a day trader so she could increase her investment returns. Now that's investor greed.

As to your question about "where that cash went to" as market prices went down?

Simple..... from the hands of a buying investor to the pocket of a selling investor. Both of them thought they were getting a good deal. Unfortunately, only one of them was right.
Old 27th March 2003
  #370
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5down1up's Avatar
 

some short add ons to your truth :

bassmac ??? i bet you feel real unsafe in l.a fuuck ...
you think your army and your generals are doing a good job ...
even their first strike plan didnt work ...
the french legion was always the first soldiers who entered enemys land ...
the french and britain are the most important troops if it comes to desert war ....
europe has the best educated anti terror troops , cause the u.s didnt really know till 9/11 what terror is ...
there are european troops in iraq ...
there are european troops in afghanistan ... the germans and french have the most soldiers there after the u.s ...
the u.s entered ww2 when it was already over ...
why do the u.s have allies in that war ... cause they pay em ...

stay a little bit realistic , just a little bit ...

anyway P E A C E ...

good job malice
Old 27th March 2003
  #371
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Midlandmorgan's Avatar
 

5up...I think many historians without political slant or agenda would argue some of your points...

The US entered WWII after it was already over? Please cite your reference, as that is something I honestly never heard of, even from my extreme leftist friends...if so why did France, Belgium, et al, erect monuments to the Americans killed there?

When it comes to the 'best' (whatever that means) anti-terror troops, try Israel... their brand of diplomacy (IE fighting back) has kept them alive since 1946... (please DO NOT let this evolve into another propaganda tool for the Palestinian perspective...this is merely an observation...)

Please qualify "French and British troops are the most important in a desert war." What are you basing that statement on; speculation or unbiased historical fact?

FWIW: I feel VERY safe in West Texas...although, I have taken personal steps to ensure that my family and my property will not be endangered by any extremist actions (left or right)...(can you say "Armed to the teeth?")

Just for argument's sake: since the entire planet knows we will not use chemical or biological weapons, why have the Iraqi forces amassed such a collection of protective/antidote equipment? Who did they think was gonna spray them? If they know we won't do it, then who?
Old 27th March 2003
  #372
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bassmac's Avatar
 

I think I got it now!

Europeans are smart, sophisticated people, who know the real truth about everything. And Americans are simply stupid, uneducated, herd followers.

Jealousy is a wonderful thing.

Old 27th March 2003
  #373
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Midlandmorgan

The US entered WWII after it was already over? Please cite your reference, as that is something I honestly never heard of, even from my extreme leftist friends...if so why did France, Belgium, et al, erect monuments to the Americans killed there?
Well, US wait for Pearl Harbour to engage in WW2. They engage Germany in Europe a long time after the beguining of the War. Note that it is although explainable. France has a debt to US soldiers, as well as to Russians (without the east front, US/UK might not have won WW2), as well as US has a dept to France (remember Lafayette ).

Quote:
When it comes to the 'best' (whatever that means) anti-terror troops, try Israel... their brand of diplomacy (IE fighting back) has kept them alive since 1946... (please DO NOT let this evolve into another propaganda tool for the Palestinian perspective...this is merely an observation...)
Yep, Israel comes top of my list, along with France that endured several times massive terrorism attack during Algeria war, as well as more recently by Islamist groups and from Corsica and basques. Along with Spain (ETA), Germany, England (IRA), Italy (Briguade rossa, Mafia, Mano Negra etc ...).
In fact, despite of this monstruous event 911, USA are practicly nowhere in the field of anti terrorism. The Afghanistan war did nothing to eradiquate Al Quaida, only giving more difficulties to locate the active groups.

Quote:
Please qualify "French and British troops are the most important in a desert war." What are you basing that statement on; speculation or unbiased historical fact?
Do a google search on French Legion and desert rats. They were even in the front line during Gulf War2, historical fact.

Quote:
Just for argument's sake: since the entire planet knows we will not use chemical or biological weapons, why have the Iraqi forces amassed such a collection of protective/antidote equipment? Who did they think was gonna spray them? If they know we won't do it, then who?
Wrong again. You won't use chemical weapons, but if Iraq use them (the ones that YOU sold them), both UK and US would use Nuclear tactic weapons. The suits the UK soldiers found are designed for both chemical/bacteriological weapons, and nuclear contaminations.

If you ask yourself if they gonna use the WMD. Well, if they have any in order, and the means to use them, yes, they will ...

malice
Old 27th March 2003
  #374
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by bassmac
... And Americans are simply stupid, uneducated, herd followers.
Oh no, I wouldn't say that.

Bassmac, I have nothing against you. I like americans as individuals. I'm not found of your present gvt, but this is not a big deal between our two countries as a community. I have great respect for you as every posters of this board (well, almost). I think if we can understand each other, even if we don't agree, there is hope in this world. I appologies if I offended you, and I hope we can still exchange our opinions in a civil maner.


Quote:
Jealousy is a wonderful thing.

mmh, no ...

malice
Old 27th March 2003
  #375
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Hi Little dog,

I like your thoughts.
And yes the internet is a really great thing. It gives opportunity for communication and information in a way like never before.

It helped me a lot especially in regard of recording and gear questions and if there are other questions it helps as well. Also one can meet very interesting people wherever on the world they sit. Wonderful!

As you know now internet will be encreased also for chinese people and that will certainly help them too.

Naturally, as you mentioned it is not censored, but still thoroughly watched through automatic tools especially by US services. They BTW, before were already spying 60% of international telephone communication by hugh direction antennas which had been mounted throughout Europe until the nineties. Meanwhile the SPIEGEL reported that already 100% of elctronic communication is frisked by big brother US. ( They also use it for industrial spying. Once there was an article describing how European inventions right on patenting showed up before by American industries. I said the secret services would supply the info to American industrials.)

And last week as the SPIEGEL reported about the cut privacy rights of journalists in Germany they reported that when the main court asked German phone companies about how many calls where asked from police to be observed the number was just under a half billion per day. As we have only 80 mio people here I would gather that to be around 100% too. Just for interest.

I am with you in hoping that governments should follow our example, but unfortunately the folks behind government and I don´t mean the population are not after reason rather than endless gathering of cash and power. Unfortunately I estimate chances to be only small that things could change before ecological brake down of the planet.
Still I am open for any ideas of hope as it is no fun to watch the facts.

Tonedaddy,

the explanationyou described is the common one and in my eyes only proves once again how easy it is to appease on obvious circumstances.

The 5 trillion are statetd by serious instances. This number regards official wins and losses. Secondly that cash has been spend, so it is ( was ) there and thirdly didn´t show up anymore since. All instituionals involved declare losses and also if it had been carried away by avarage holders it would had shown in economics as the winners would had been spending their money. But you know of the current international economic situation.

Do you also know that alone the Deutsche Bank while decided to pay no taxes allegedly, because having made huge looses - just like "all" did - payed 20 billion Euro extra bonus to their upper managers in the same time.

So, as 5 trillion had been payed while the money isn´t there anymore where is it then?

I´ll tell what I think how things went. Investors cheated themselfes by giving their money to trusts / banks in order to speculate for them. The banks/ trusts already having access to large amounts through this had even much bigger numbers at their hands. With numbers like tenth and hundreds of billions in only a few or even one hand you know what happens on stock markets?
The stock market changes from related values to determined ones. Thus speculators of that size don´t need speculating, they generate the trends. They determine which and how papers rise or fall. They build mousetraps.
Very easy. They constantly push any values until attract little and middle investors jump in and finally they just sell it when their own investment has doubled, trippled, whatsoever.
That´s they way it works.
And when big trusts declared profits of 10, 15, 30% or even losses it just made me bitterly laugh. It´s a plain lie.

The truth is that they can make what they want and there is no way for anybody to control their real action and numbers. And as they are behind the states institutions themselves you could had just watched what happened in the US about more than half a year or so ago, when steps on market and analyst controls were discussed. There is even a photo where Bush signs a pseudo paper which actually is clearly worth nothing towards real control. On that photo while he sits and signs his consultants stand behind him. You should see that pic and the way they all grin. It says it all, although it wouldn´t even be necessary to explain circumstances by any behaviour of any person ...

Fact after all and at the least is that these 5 trillion $s are currently missing on the world market. They are deposed. And they will slowly start flowing again, certainly.
The money will be used for the same purpose one other time, you will see.
The same thing will occure again.
Stocks will get hyped, people will jump in and at the end nobody officially has seen the cash.

Back to the common explanation named average folks greed:

To me it looks much less like greed when little people try to take some advantage to their little budget that they earn for a hard exploitation of their lifetime - which by the way as being about 40 hours a week under the technological and organizing possibilities of our times is just redicilous, especially in relationship to the rewards for it -, but I see greed, yes, getting-out-of-hand-greed somewhere else.
I see it there where the average curiously never talks about. At people who earn tenth, hundreds of millions and even billions per year and do everything without a second thought on fairness, humanity or whatsoever to make it more and more and more.
That is greed in my eyes.

And for the masses, for the people who earn only a fraction of their outputs worth, who don´t get to teach their kids even the minimum of ethics anymore, how do the accumulating rich appear to those?

They adore them for being so handsome with success.

I say, related to the abilities of information the people in the middle age centuries where more aware of what is up than we do as their modern inherits.

We might be potential Ferraris on evolutionary stage, but drive around as Fiat cinquecentos.
If there was intelligence anywhere out in space watching us they would be laughing their heads off about the muppets show down here. If it wasn´t only that brutal as it is.

Sorry for my bad English.

Ruphus
Old 27th March 2003
  #376
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
Little dog,

you seem not to know, but Pearl Harbor was arranged on the principle of the Reichstag burning. Among more details that I don´t have all at hand at the moments like administratve control having prepared many points like placing older ships and pulling away the better vessels etc.pp. there is that quote from one of the closed staff around Roosevelt going like "When will they finally attack!?"

Ruphus
Dude, that is so completely tired. Please, give me a break. Here we are in 2003 discussing the world situation, and you're spouting a ridiculous conspiracy theory from 1941.

If the US was capable of manipulating the Japanese into planning and executing an attack so precisely that we could position which ships and sailors we preferred to be destroyed (that's a novel concept) in just the right spot, then buddy, we would deserve to rule the world, yes? I mean, that would be a pretty neat trick.

And don't forget, while you're at it, the Mossad planned 9/11, no one in a government anywhere has ever been capable of an enlightened or noble thought, capitalism is satanic, conspiracies are everywhere and only you, an elite member of the intelligentsia, have the real truth, carefully ferreted out in accordance with your predispositions.

Thanks for taking your time to enlighten those of us who are so naive.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 27th March 2003
  #377
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Dude, that is so completely tired. Please, give me a break. Here we are in 2003 discussing the world situation, and you're spouting a ridiculous conspiracy theory from 1941.

If the US was capable of manipulating the Japanese into planning and executing an attack so precisely that we could position which ships and sailors we preferred to be destroyed (that's a novel concept) in just the right spot, then buddy, we would deserve to rule the world, yes? I mean, that would be a pretty neat trick.

And don't forget, while you're at it, the Mossad planned 9/11, no one in a government anywhere has ever been capable of an enlightened or noble thought, capitalism is satanic, conspiracies are everywhere and only you, an elite member of the intelligentsia, have the real truth, carefully ferreted out in accordance with your predispositions..

Thanks for taking your time to enlighten those of us who are so naive.


Regards,
Brian T
If you´d given some more time on it instead you´d seen that Pearl Harbour wasn´t brought in by me.
Secondly, for me occasions don´t get meaningless on principle only because they are from the past.

And sure it can all only be conspiracy theories. Isn´t it practical and convinient to take any doubts on official discription as such? I think I understand your point.

As about enlightning you and making me elite member is just a close approach for conservatives to interpret critics with any kind of personal reasons. I would had wondered if such wouldn´t had come up. If it helps you, it is actually worse, I´m sitting here in a mad house where I record nightmares with fashionable preamplifiers whenever they open my gagging jacket.

When I discuss with people who at least partially seem to still believe in the sandman I do this, because I have the idea that deep inside they could have the same will like me, which means wanting to know, no matter if the arguments offered or news are comfortable or not.

Unfortunately, it often really isn´t like that as majority has learned to spend energy rather for "district defense" ( as psychologists name it ) than for consequent update.
BTW, when hearing something not comform with your ideas try to ignore the subjective impression that it would point to you as an idiot and better check the meaning actually given. Makes more sense.

Through the years I experience discussion partners sometimes later finding something as a fact that one might had mentioned before and from there getting attentive towards public interpretation and belonging opposite facts in the future.
That is why I risk myself to appear like for you, besides of the attraction to learn news myself by comparing arguments or just listening.

Capitalism is satanic?
Oh no, BrianT, capitalism is a humanistic invention that helps menkind to progress and bring more efficiency, wealth and truth to everybody who only does care. Right?

No, satanic are all those dictators who had never to do with capitalism and all those lefties who just want to exploit and make slaves for their golden taps. Right again?

I undertsand, you are not naive and nobody should be so bold to tell any item that could collide with what you already gathered from intensive observation, or from people who at least didn´t tell conspiracy theories.

As you see I gave my best, have not even mentioned any event from before March 26, 2003 this time.

Regards,

Ruphus
Old 27th March 2003
  #378
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5down1up's Avatar
 

if i would be american i would say the same ...
i dont understand the point of you defending an general
" AMERICAN OPINION " ...
i know some americans , i was in l.a last week and i heard from
N O B O D Y that this war is a good idea .

my 2k bout "american" & "european" thoughts

Old 27th March 2003
  #379
Lives for gear
 

Sorry if this offends, but much of this thread seems to have devolved into intellectual masturbation, IMO.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 27th March 2003
  #380
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5down1up's Avatar
 

doesnt offend at all <--- i love this new guy

its good to have you here BrianT ...

we only have written words to express our thoughts ...
thats a hard challenge , anyway .
i feel like ive said anything and repeat and repeat and repeat heh

but what else can we do ,

keep on talking ...
Old 27th March 2003
  #381
I feel that the continued US funding of Israel, and turning a blind eye while Palastinian homes were bulldozed to make space for 'setlers' is going to bite us all on the ass very hard, very soon unless the US can force Isreal to 'be nice' to it's neighbours.

Iraqi teatment of US POW's ?
Guantanamo bay ?

Hello?

Ignoring the UN?
Doubling back to the UN with an ileagal suggestion for funding the rebuild of Iraq?

Hello?

Dancing of joy in the streets & accurate bombing?

Hello?

Thats my mid term view anyhow. If the US doesn't do ALL it's promised v f soon, it's rep throughout the world will be sh!tcanned for good, brave army assistance over the years or not.

That means:

Fight
Give it straight back to the Iraqis (not expecting much thanks, like in Afganistan, who threw out both the US & the Brits as SOON as they could)
Fund the re-build - (This one legally is ALL out of US & UK wallets as we attacked them)
No strings attached - No oil contracts for Cheyne or Bush's good old boys
Leave, with a note on the refridgerator saying "if you are selling oil, we are interested, here's our number"....

Still seems a big gamble to me from my couch

See how the game plays out.... Scary stuff... seems a bad mess at present..

Good luck to the coalition troops & civilians & Iragi's troops that want to surrender!

Old 27th March 2003
  #382
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Jules,

I generally agree with you. It's a pretty simple litmus test for the US and Britain.

In 1-2 years, the people of Iraq, that is the common populace, needs to be better off and have better prospects for their future than any time in the last 20 years.

If that is indeed the case, much of this will sort itself out. The rifts will heal over time and maybe all involved will be wiser in their approach next time round.

If the people of Iraq are not better off in both the near and far future as a result of this war, then I agree that there will be a great evaporation of any US or British moral authority, and rightly so.

As to a couple of your points. By reference, I don't recall any at Guantanamo Bay who have been shot in the head, unarmed. Yet another point to keep in mind. We are not yet anywhere near the number of casualties, on both sides combined that the US saw on the single day of 9/11/2001, without warning. I pray that will still be true when this concludes, though I fear not.

Many in the US were ready to decimate any suspect country immediately after 9/11. We were well able. Feelings were incredibly high after the extremely disturbing images we saw that day. I cried many tears myself. Please keep in mind that it was in fact President Bush who showed great restraint, IMO, to the frustration of many hot headed Americans at that point.

There is no oil in Afghanistan, yet the same sort of goals of liberation were persued and it does appear that the Afghan people are better off today than they were 2 years ago, yes? I believe that is inarguable to the objective person.

Maybe the same will be true for Iraq. Wouldn't that be great? Or would it bother some here to be wrong in their predictions, even if it meant better things for Iraq?

Just thinking out loud.

Credit and blame should be given as due, not as desired.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 27th March 2003
  #383
Interesting..

"There is no oil in Afghanistan, yet the same sort of goals of liberation were persued"

Liberation wasn't the "goals' there! Revenge & retribution on Bin Laden were! lets get real here!

"By reference, I don't recall any at Guantanamo Bay who have been shot in the head, unarmed."

That 2 British soldiers were executed is a sensationalized but so far unconfirmed speculation at present. It looks like you are adding up 'wrongs' to come up with a "right".

" Afghan people are better off today than they were 2 years ago, yes? I believe that is inarguable to the objective person.

Maybe the same will be true for Iraq. Wouldn't that be great?"

If there are catastrophic costs to pay in global disharmony for years to come, I would be forced to disagree with you.

Old 27th March 2003
  #384
Buy hey!

fingers crossed!

Old 27th March 2003
  #385
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

One point the peaceniks amazingly overlook is that many more people over the next 10 years would be killed by leaving Saddam in power, than will be killed taking him out.

By insisting we leave Saddam alone, the peace dudes are calling for continued butchery as shown by Saddam toward the Kurds, Shiites and dissenters over the past twenty years.

The people lost in this war is very painful, but nothing compared to the folks Saddam has butchered so far. The numbers are in the hundreds of thousands, and perhaps millions.

It's just not as "cool" in cultural circles of free countries to protest against dictators who privately wipe out populations, as it is to protest against two countries willing to do something real and forceful to put a stop to it.

Here's hoping that Saddam doesn't kill all his people trying to hold onto power.
Old 28th March 2003
  #386
Yes the siege Baghdad scenario looks to be a frightening prospect.

While I cant be bothered to find too many adjectives to describe Bush & Rumsfelds 'relish' at press conferences, Saddam & his cronies are clearly delighted with the limelight that the invasion has shone on them. They have highlighted - wounded children, paraded captured pilots, shown dead coalition soldiers, downed helicopters, all media images DREADED by the coalition. They fan global anti US Moslem radical opinion at every opportunity.

Lets face it if they are going to be barricaded in some sort of "Saddams last stand" scenario you can be sure CNN & Aljezera TV will be there to bring it to the masses. All the time Saddam would be calling for fellow Arabs and Moslems to rise against the US & Britain. It would be a PR NIGHTMARE for the US & Britain, and genuinely dangerous from a global safety point of view IMHO.
Old 28th March 2003
  #387
Lives for gear
 

Jules,

"Liberation wasn't the "goals' there! Revenge & retribution on Bin Laden were! lets get real here!"

This is dissimilar to taking out Hussein? How?

"That 2 British soldiers were executed is a sensationalized but so far unconfirmed speculation at present. It looks like you are adding up 'wrongs' to come up with a "right"."

You seemed to equate Iraq's treatment of prisoners with the US at Guantanamo Bay. Maybe I misread. You're saying you'd just as soon be a prisoner in Iraq? Not I, that's for sure. Ask a British POW that question, if and when they get home.

"If there are catastrophic costs to pay in global disharmony for years to come, I would be forced to disagree with you."

IF (and I admit it's an "if") the millions of people of Iraq are truly better off (liberated in the best sense) after this is over, you are saying that would not have been a worthwhile endeavor if there is global disharmony?

Here we have disagreement. You don't do a thing because it's easy or hard. You do a thing because it's right or it's wrong. I expect you believe that as well, Jules. There will always be conflicts. Paralysis won't prevent that.

People continue to bring up the spector of increasing the Arab world's inflammation. Too late. They've hated the US nearly across the board for decades. Why? Plenty of opinions about that, including some bad moves on the part of the US, but when all is said and done, it's primarily about Israel. They want Israel completely gone, dead and buried. The US/Britain and a few other nations frustrate that effort.

Until that is resolved, and I wouldn't hold your breath, their will be emnity between those two positions, regardless of any other issue or greivance that may exist or be resolved, legitimate or illegitimate.

I want Israel to be fairer in their dealings. But there is no way I would willingly permit their destruction, which is the expressed goal of many Arab nations and organizations. And that alone is enough to make me and my country the enemy in their mind.

So pissing them off is a moot point. They already want me dead. Thankfully, most Americans do not feel the same way about them.

Swap the military forces between the US and any one of many of the Arab nations. The US would have been a smoking crater in the earth long ago, to the rejoicing of much of the Arab world. Therein is the difference between the cultures.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 28th March 2003
  #388
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
Tonedaddy,
the explanationyou described is the common one and in my eyes only proves once again how easy it is to appease on obvious circumstances.

The 5 trillion are statetd by serious instances. This number regards official wins and losses. Secondly that cash has been spend, so it is ( was ) there and thirdly didn´t show up anymore since. All instituionals involved declare losses and also if it had been carried away by avarage holders it would had shown in economics as the winners would had been spending their money. But you know of the current international economic situation.
No apologies needed for your English, I struggle with it, too, and I live in the US! And thanks for the civil discussion, I appreciate your ability to express your opinions without assuming I disagree or am trying to convince you to change your mind.

Just a couple of comments: The $5 trillion is NOT official wins and losses. It's the difference in reported market values of stocks when prices are high compared to when prices were low.

The reason for this is simple. Stocks are valued at the price the last share sold at, not the price any other share may or may not ever sell for.

Think about this. Bigass Records goes public, and 1000 people each buy one share of stock in the company. Each share is worth $1. The total stock market VALUE of this universe is $1000.

Now, the CEO of Bigass, Mr. MediaMonkey thinks the stock will be imminently more valuable in the next week, wants to get in early and buys one share each from 6 people at the following prices:
the first share for $100, the next for $1000, the next for $10,000, the next for $100,000, the next for $1,000,000, the the next for $1,000,000,000.

Now remember I didn't say MediaMonkey was smart, I just said he could pay the price. Out of his pocket he's spent $1,001,111,100. But remember he thinks the price will go even higher next week. So he let's the word out among the other stock owners that the price of one share of stock has gone from $1 to $1,000,000,000 in less than a week, and it's bound to go higher, IT HAS TOO BECAUSE IT WAS WORTH LESS LAST WEEK! In fact, since he's got 7 shares now and he paid $1,000,000,000 for the last share, MediaMonkey feels like he's now personally woth $7,000,000,000, can finally get the get the plastic surgery he's wanted for so long, divorce his wife of 25 years, and marry his Executive Assistant, Ms. Morgo Down.


The facts are that of the 1000 shares of Bigass Records that have ever been sold, the total value of those sales is only $1,001,112,094. But MediaMonkey tells everyone in town that now each of their shares of stock is worth $1,000,000,000 because the last share sold for that price. In fact MediaMonkey announces that the TOTAL MARKET VALUE of Bigass Records has grown from $1000 to $1,000,000,000,000 (that's one trillion $) in the last week, and not only is this the buying opportunity of a lifetime, it certainly is the start of a Bigass Media Empire. He announces that Bigass is in the market to acquire as many media companies as they can, all in stock swap (non-cash) deals.

Later that week, some of the stock owners, the LunchBoyz, meet and all the talk is about MediaMonkey, and the Bigass Deals that are going down faster than Morgo. One stock owner who's been out town say's, "What? No frickin' way is MediaMonkey an investment genius. In fact his name isn't MediaMonkey, he changed it from ****forBrains when he hit LA 12 years ago. No way is Bigass Records worth $1,000,000,000 a share... In fact, Bigass Records hasn't sold a record, hasn't signed anybody, bought Napster for $50 billion so they can make all of their records available for free MP3 downloading, has no distribution, and has plans to record all of it's artists using their company producer, Alsihad R. Dreams.

Well, the LunchBoyz are off like a prom dress, and each sell their stock that day for whatever they can get for it. The stock market records that all 994 share owners besides MediaMonkey sell their stocks that week for 50 cent. The next week, the cover of the magazines has pictures of MediaMonkey and the lead stories are about how Bigass Records went from a MARKET VALUATION of $1 trillion to $50 in less than a week.

So what does this add up to.

Stock market value at the start: $ 1,000
Stock market value at the peak: $1,000,000,000,000 (again, thats $1 trillion)
Stock market value after the crash: $ 500
Loss in stock market VALUE: $ 999,999,999,500

Total amount stock buyers spent: $1,001,112,094 + (994 x $.50)
Total amount stock sellers received: $1,001,112,094 + (994 x $.50)

All of the money is there. It doesn't disappear. There can't be any money missing. All money used to buy stocks goes from the pocket of a willing buyer into the pocket of a willing seller.

Conclusion: Losses in over-inflated stock market valuations do not translate to any money missing from anywhere.
Old 28th March 2003
  #389
**"Liberation wasn't the "goals' there! Revenge & retribution on Bin Laden were! lets get real here!"

This is dissimilar to taking out Hussein? How?"

**Revenge for Sept 11th US attack and trying to catch the perpitrator was Afganistan. But "Weapons of (so far unfound) mass distruction" and er 'nasty stuff' we didnt care too much about untill Bush got a hair up his **s. All add up to an unsatisfactory why the hell now? headscratcher for many, including the UN. Dont get me wrong Saddam does seem to be a genuinly nasty piece of work, but virtuous claims of liberation and sudden US interest in the Iraqi people just seems plain odd to me, don't forget the US & Britain funded him and sold arms to him a few decades ago. It all smacks more of media manipulation than heartwarming brotherhood between mankind.

"That 2 British soldiers were executed is a sensationalized but so far unconfirmed speculation at present. It looks like you are adding up 'wrongs' to come up with a "right"."

You seemed to equate Iraq's treatment of prisoners with the US at Guantanamo Bay. Maybe I misread.

**No, that is corect, US government's blood seemed to boil at the 'outrage' of (admitidly VERY unfortunate) POW's sitting on a couch sipping a glass of tea. Let's just cut to shots of kneeling, blindfold & manicled detainees on Guantanamo Bay picked up and carried by a bar under their armpits!

You're saying you'd just as soon be a prisoner in Iraq?

**Time will tell how the very unfortunate POW's in Iraq fare. All fingers & toes crossed for them. I dont think you or I will ever hear from the Guantanimo bay detainees again.. What? You think ones going to come out and write a book about it?

**"If there are catastrophic costs to pay in global disharmony for years to come, I would be forced to disagree with you."

IF (and I admit it's an "if") the millions of people of Iraq are truly better off (liberated in the best sense) after this is over, you are saying that would not have been a worthwhile endeavor if there is global disharmony?

**Correctamundo, if the whole shebang ends up badly handled, great 'misadventure' that pushes us towards an othrwise avoidable WW3, yes, I reserve the right to disagree.

Here we have disagreement. You don't do a thing because it's easy or hard. You do a thing because it's right or it's wrong. I expect you believe that as well, Jules. There will always be conflicts. Paralysis won't prevent that.

**Is a cheeta paralized while it waits and watches in the long grass? Or is it being "smart"?

People continue to bring up the spector of increasing the Arab world's inflammation. Too late.

** that is 'giving up' More peace love & understanding required IMHO.

They've hated the US nearly across the board for decades.

** Resigned unwilling to see a solution IMHO

Why? Plenty of opinions about that, including some bad moves on the part of the US, but when all is said and done, it's primarily about Israel. They want Israel completely gone, dead and buried. The US/Britain and a few other nations frustrate that effort.

Until that is resolved, and I wouldn't hold your breath, their will be emnity between those two positions, regardless of any other issue or greivance that may exist or be resolved, legitimate or illegitimate.

I want Israel to be fairer in their dealings. But there is no way I would willingly permit their destruction,

** They have to give back that grabbed settler land. That would be fair & a good bit of PR, much needed at this time.

which is the expressed goal of many Arab nations and organizations. And that alone is enough to make me and my country the enemy in their mind.

So pissing them off is a moot point. They already want me dead. Thankfully, most Americans do not feel the same way about them.

** What a way to carry on! They = all Arabs I suppose? Or should that also include all Muslims?

Swap the military forces between the US and any one of many of the Arab nations. The US would have been a smoking crater in the earth long ago, to the rejoicing of much of the Arab world. Therein is the difference between the cultures.

** The US army isn't big enough to wipe em all out, how about figuring out how to get along a bit better? Thier culture a few hundred centuries older than the USA's , we should have some respect for it.

Old 28th March 2003
  #390
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Hi Tonedaddy,

thank you very much for your explanation. I appreciate your communication very much. And BTW, there would be no prob at all if you were at any time trying to change my mind. Actually, it somehow is what I want others to try, so that I can check my ideas. If it shows reasonable to change my mind then it is a winning situation at the end, because without change no progress.

I was aware of difference of share value and stipulating, if I can say so, but at the same time meant to remember it the way I said before. Now, you made think it over and I think it could be a good idea to try to find out about that specific point.
I will write to the editorial office of source and ask them, hopefully they will answer.

But the one point which remians as the question on principle, even if the real losses were smaller than 5 trillion $: Everybody claimed actual losses, including the big banks.

I mean this definitly can´t be.
First, because that would mean that the small investors had won the money of the big fishes, which they shouldn´t have without question ... Secondly, because the banks / trusts can hardly fall victims to their own abilities of market manipulation.

Do you agree?




Ruphus
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