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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 19th March 2003
  #301
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ultima's Avatar
 

I have done a bit of math and it seems to me that France now owes America support for ...

8.7 Pre-Emptive strikes.
3 1/2 genocides...
1.4 Nuclear attacks...

And a whole lotta fries to go....



No seriously though, i think we can pretty much count on the fact that NO-one here knows the real reasons for this war.

We can only speculate...

Here´s my current speculation..

What America/Uk needs right now is for Saddam to use chemical weapons to gain support from France as well as everyone going like ....." ahhh...so they were right all along"

Wouldnt surprise me that this would conveniently happen in a few days or weeks.....

Again im just speculating.
Old 19th March 2003
  #302
If you can't locate stickpiles of Anthrax & Mustard type gass material in an area, is bombing that area the very best thing to be doing?

Old 19th March 2003
  #303
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by ultima

What America/Uk needs right now is for Saddam to use chemical weapons to gain support from France as well as everyone going like ....." ahhh...so they were right all along"

Wouldnt surprise me that this would conveniently happen in a few days or weeks.....

Again im just speculating.
Well, it is not the worse case scenario, and it might as well happened.

Let's play guessing games :

1 - Saddam hasn't got MDW : I don't buy it, but hey, what do I know. War is quick, The World community wonders why G.W.Bush sent his army to Bomb innocent peoples, the arabs countries hate US gutz, UN seems useless than ever. If some MDW are found after the war, it would be a nasty trick (see why in hypothesis -2), and Bush would lose next elections... France and Germany would gain prestige, Europe would start to think about getting political and military quick to oppose a new counterpower to US that showed a dangerous and ilegitimate behaviour.

2 - Saddam has got MDW: he will use them, as this war is a threat to his regime and he acquire thoses in that purpose. he will use them :

a - against US/UK troops, with minimum casualties.

This is the best case scenario, as it validate US theory, put France in the obligation of supporting US at last. Bush becomes a great president and is re elected.

b- against US/UK troops, with maximum casualties.

This is one of the worse case scenario. It would oblige US/UK to use MDW, probably nuclear. France gave support to US, but condemn Nuclear strike. Arabia would probably unify arab countries against US, OPEP might decide that Oil would not be paid in $ anymore, but in €. Terrorism would increase.
US would confront a crisis of biblical proportions...
mmh, there are probably a lot of nasty things that would happen, let's hope it is not this one ...

c- against a town in Israel.

Well, I'm pretty sure he will try that.If it makes victims, Israel will be force to join the coalition and the war: Saddam is counting on that as a lots of arab countries won't accept Israel part of the conflict. despite of Bush beggings, Sharron won't stay out of it. This would make that powder baril that is middle east explode. May be Israel would nuke Bagdad if there is a lot of casualties.
mmh, looks like WW3 to me, we join the b-scenario, only worth because of Israel implication. Even a country like Moroco would call for Jihad...

Well, this are just speculations, and I remind you than the best scenario would have been to let the inspectors go back and work for several years to dismantle Iraq arsenal peacefully (that way has destroyed more weapons than the Gulf wars). But this is too late.

mmh, your vote please, time is runing fast ...

I vote for 2a, I'm optimistic...Not great, but the best scenario I can find for the world. You noticed I did not mentioned civil casualties, well, they would be important in any case, let's say it is not a relevant parameter in this game (yeah, I'm sarcastic today, and it will get worse).

Peace anyway

malice
Old 19th March 2003
  #304
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Sprry fot the cut&paste but this just has to be read..

Monday, March 17, 2003

A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War


George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com
Old 19th March 2003
  #305
Schnert
Guest
About a week ago I heard Saddam challenged Bush to do a live appearance on TV (obveously not in the same room...), where Bush was entitled to ask Saddam whatever question he liked, and vice versa. Never happened? Wasn't such a bad idea really....
Old 20th March 2003
  #306
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hey yall in here ... good you kept the discussion rollin ...

90 minutes to go ... final countdown ...

thank you for your opinions on that topic ...

hopefully this wont turn into a nightmare ...


P E A C E & a prayer for the dying
Old 20th March 2003
  #307
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Well, we are bombing, troops appear to be moving.

A someone who is anti this war, let me say that I am fully with the men and women of the armed forces, and pray for their safe and rapid return.

Godspeed.
Old 20th March 2003
  #308
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Steve, thank you for that sentiment...it is time to set aside differences between hawks and doves, and pull for those who are in harm's way...once this thing is over, THEN lets re-kindle the discussions.
Old 20th March 2003
  #309
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Unhappy

Hi all. I'm in late on this discussion, but the fan has been hit with stuff that doesn't smell good.

Downtown San Francisco is full of protesters. This morning thousands of people were in the streets, blocking traffic in protest. So far the police have been cool, some arrests but that is to be expected.

This is not from the news, I was there. No idea if this kind of thing is getting reported.

Funny, the only way to get around was on a vehicle that did not use oil, a bicycle.

Scary times. Support our troups, bring them home.
Old 22nd March 2003
  #310
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More protests. Right now there are 4 hellicopters above Justin Herman Plaza, the foot of the Embarcadero.

Day 2 of war in San Francisco.

War does not decide who is right, only who has the bigger guns.
Old 22nd March 2003
  #311
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FWIW, most of the country considers the Bay Area to be just left of Fidel Castro, politically. SF may be a huge politcal force in it´s own mind, but for most of the rest of America, SF defines the phrase¨Consider the source.¨

Not trying to be rude. Just another perspective. There may be legitimate reasons for concern regarding the current war, but the political climate within SF is not one of them for most of us.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 22nd March 2003
  #312
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
FWIW, most of the country considers the Bay Area to be just left of Fidel Castro, politically. SF may be a huge politcal force in it´s own mind, but for most of the rest of America, SF defines the phrase¨Consider the source.¨

Not trying to be rude. Just another perspective. There may be legitimate reasons for concern regarding the current war, but the political climate within SF is not one of them for most of us.


Regards,
Brian T
Yes, Brian, but to put another perspective on it, SF is echoing the sentiments of rest of the world.

How would you feel if another nation decided that Bush was an evil dictator with an evil regime that had weapons of mass destruction that they could use against nation X (...not at all far fetched or untrue so far..), so this nation decided to take pre-emptive strikes against US cities and 'tactical' sites, and LA, NYC, Chicago, Seattle, Miami, etc, were attacked in a similar fashion to what is happening in Iraqi cities?

I hope you have the intelligence to see that the more the US and Britain continue with these attrocities, the more it is turning 9/11 into a justifiable pre-emptive strike in the eyes of the muslim countries, and many others.

However far left SF may be, the rest of the world who are opposed to this war, like the majority of the population here in the UK, who also have troops over there, aren't just from the left wing, they cover the full political spectrum. Wrong is wrong, which is why the majority of the world is against what's happening.
The footage I've seen tonight from Baghdad outweighs what I witnessed on 9/11 in terms of my dissapointment in humanity and that deeply concerns me.
Old 22nd March 2003
  #313
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Quote:
Originally posted by Messiah

I hope you have the intelligence to see
I apologize. I am stupid and can predict the future very poorly. Please continue to do so for me. Thank you.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 22nd March 2003
  #314
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Brian, I don't want to get into an argument over this, but it's easy to take things out of context and badly quote people to make your point;

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
I apologize. I am stupid

Regards,
Brian T
Old 22nd March 2003
  #315
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Download this great movie of Bush and Blair together...

and HEY it's musical!

(it's 3.5 meg but it's worth it for you slow guys!)

http://www.bevvyb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/InHere/Blair.mpg

HIGHLY recommended - had me in stitches
Old 22nd March 2003
  #316
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malice's Avatar
 

Damn Bev, you are faster than me, what lip sync !

malice
Old 23rd March 2003
  #317
Here for the gear
 

If Iraq has executed U.S. POW's (as is being suggested in reports on CNN here in the US), does that change the boundaries of anyone's perspective?
Old 23rd March 2003
  #318
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Most likely not...the extremist anti-war movement is not much more than the mind-set of Hollywood: American bad; everyone else good...rich bad; poor good...Iraqis die bad; Americans die in combat or terrorism- we somehow deserved it...now look at me in a $30,000 dress...
Old 23rd March 2003
  #319
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5down1up's Avatar
 

the only thing that has changed during our discussion :

... the war is now for real ...
Old 23rd March 2003
  #320
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by 5down1up

... the war is now for real ...
And for those who are interested to know what of the information on it is manipulated can read here
Old 24th March 2003
  #321
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Quote:
Originally posted by Messiah
Brian, I don't want to get into an argument over this, but it's easy to take things out of context and badly quote people to make your point;

My only point was as follows. Your use of the phrase, ¨I hope you have the intelligence to see¨ leaves very little, if any, room for an opinion differing from yours, regardless of what specific statement may have followed it in your post. If I disagree, then I don´t have the intelligence to see, correct?

That is the sort of phraseology that tends to create entrenched and inflexible positions that ultimately lead to verbal jousting rather than friendly exchange of differing opinions.

That was the totality of my point in quoting that specific phrase, and my following expressions of self depracation were an attempt to highlight the logical conclusion somewhat humorously. It appears that I failed.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 24th March 2003
  #322
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malice's Avatar
 

Yeah the war's for real ...

Where are the MDW ???

Am I alone to wonder why, if Saddam has them, he does not use them ???

either he will, or he does not have them ...

Still nothing was found yet

malice
Old 24th March 2003
  #323
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
My only point was as follows. Your use of the phrase, ¨I hope you have the intelligence to see¨ leaves very little, if any, room for an opinion differing from yours, regardless of what specific statement may have followed it in your post. If I disagree, then I don´t have the intelligence to see, correct?

That is the sort of phraseology that tends to create entrenched and inflexible positions that ultimately lead to verbal jousting rather than friendly exchange of differing opinions.

That was the totality of my point in quoting that specific phrase, and my following expressions of self depracation were an attempt to highlight the logical conclusion somewhat humorously. It appears that I failed.
That's alright, it takes years to hone a good sense of humour. And, you're correct in your failure assumption because I didn't read it as being humorous.hippie

Ok, Brian, I take your point of how my "intelligence" line could be taken like that, maybe "I hope you can understand that" would have been more suitable. It was a little bit 'Dubya' Bush of me now that you've highlighted it, and by Christ, that is the last person on the planet I would wish to have any similarity with.
Old 24th March 2003
  #324
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

To see the problems that America has as a whole with its reporting on a national scale try typing in a google search for Michael Moore's acceptance speech at the oscars last night.

And then try and find two articles that report what happened in the same way.

Old 24th March 2003
  #325
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malice's Avatar
 

Michael Moore,


My hero ....


malice
Old 24th March 2003
  #326
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bassmac's Avatar
 

Michael Moore,

****ing Asshole!

Old 24th March 2003
  #327
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

eek!

I'm not sure if that's very gearlsutty

How about 'I really don't like him because...'
Old 24th March 2003
  #328
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Michael Moore wasted a perfectly good oppurtunity to talk about the topic of his movie - GUNS and GUN VIOLENCE. It's too bad because last night made a seeminly intellegent person look ill prepared and unintelligent. I was hoping that he would have represented his views a bit better.
Old 24th March 2003
  #329
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malice's Avatar
 

mmh,

I kinda agree with you Steve, still the guy did a LOT of interesting films and most of the time I agree with him on the fights he's involved in.

Bassmac, could you extand on what you dislike about Michael Moore in general ?

I'm curious ...

malice
Old 24th March 2003
  #330
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bassmac's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
Bassmac, could you extand on what you dislike about Michael Moore in general ?
Michael Moore makes FICTION films, presented in a documentary format for the purpose of pushing his own misguided beliefs onto uninformed people. It works quite well in many cases. - I'm personally fed up with it.



It seems Hollywood is also a little pissed at him for using "we" to describe his own anti-american sentiments. And his stating that only "five" people booed him last night, speaks well to his accuracy as a documentary filmmaker, IMHO.

tutt
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