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another WAR 2003 Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 11th March 2003
  #271
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Re: right of sovereignty

Quote:
Originally posted by hodad
Also, it galls me that pro-war folks can go on and on about US sovereignty and how gosh darn important it is when one of the chief problems with this war (in my opinion) is that it violates Iraq's sovereignty in a big way. How does one justify this hypocrisy?
Easy answer hodad, Iraq lost its right to sovereignty when it invaded its neighbor Kuwait. What is happening now is a continuation of the Gulf war after a 12-year cease-fire.
Old 11th March 2003
  #272
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

IRAQ invaded Kuwait in response to an econimic war that Kuwait was waging with IRAQ, and they only invaded after the US assured them that they would not get involved in an Arab-Arab war.
Old 11th March 2003
  #273
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THIS IS STUPID

Y'all...

Here's the real deal...exactly 100% of the collective discussions on this and every other board is nothing more than an exersise in who can pile bull**** higher....The right wing (of which I proudly admit) can't believe the left wing can be so blind; the left wing cannot fathom why anyone would think of themselves so highly as to put global peace (whatever that means) at risk...

I would hope that no one on this board is so naive as to think they are actually going to change someone else's opinion. All the doves here are to be respected, if not admired, for speaking up for what they believe...the same holds true for the hawks....but...

Nothing any of us say or do is going to change anything or anyone....so please don't try to convince me anymore that the (fill in one position) is evil and the (fill in the other stand) is the only way...instead try to convince me why I should or should not go deeper in debt getting a Radar Classic...

I mean...damn.

A tip of the Stetson to Everyone...

Ken
Old 11th March 2003
  #274
Gear Head
 

Re: Re: right of sovereignty

Quote:
Originally posted by Plus6
Easy answer hodad, Iraq lost its right to sovereignty when it invaded its neighbor Kuwait. What is happening now is a continuation of the Gulf war after a 12-year cease-fire.
I can't say I buy this. I've heard it before, but I don't quite get it. Iraq went to war with Kuwait 12 years ago--shouldn't Kuwait be the only country that might possibly be able to use that as an excuse for attacking Iraq?

Otherwise, couldn't any country that supported Kuwait in the first Gulf War just up and decide to attack Iraq?


Also this: I still do not support this military action, but I don't think this discussion is pointless. I've certainly had a few new things thrown at me by some of the righties here, & I'd say it's refined my view of things but not changed my mind.

Doubt, as one of my old philosophy professors used to say, is the cornerstone of faith.
Old 11th March 2003
  #275
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Re: Re: Re: right of sovereignty

Quote:
Originally posted by hodad
I can't say I buy this. I've heard it before, but I don't quite get it. Iraq went to war with Kuwait 12 years ago--shouldn't Kuwait be the only country that might possibly be able to use that as an excuse for attacking Iraq?

Otherwise, couldn't any country that supported Kuwait in the first Gulf War just up and decide to attack Iraq?


Also this: I still do not support this military action, but I don't think this discussion is pointless. I've certainly had a few new things thrown at me by some of the righties here, & I'd say it's refined my view of things but not changed my mind.

Doubt, as one of my old philosophy professors used to say, is the cornerstone of faith.
Fundamentally, the crux of the issue is whether or not Iraq has ever met and/or is currently meeting the terms required by the armistice that ended the Gulf War.

What mechanism is in place to insure that a belligerent nation (Iraq) who initiated the invasion of another country (Kuwait) is complying with the terms of surrender that allowed it to maintain it's sovereignity? The only effective one in this case, it seems, is the threat, and/or actual use, of force.

Saddam Hussein's "right" to continue to rule Iraq is predicated upon specific conditions he agreed to in order to preserve his rule. Violation of those conditions terminate his right to rule, according to that agreement. He had to agree to those conditions or else be subject to the Gulf War continuing until he did agree or else was captured, killed or deposed.

So the question is not and never has been whether or not Saddam Hussein forfeited his right to rule if he violated those conditions. The only question is whether or not his violations (if any) are severe enough to warrant military force as a correction.

Without the viable threat of force and the enforcement of the no-fly zone by the US and Britain, Iraq would almost certainly already have fully rebuilt it's army, persued all manner of prohibited weapons, and likely finished off the Kurds in Iraq wholesale.

IMO, it's a sorry state of affairs and he should go. Unfortunately, the populace of Iraq either will not, or more likely cannot get rid of him on their own. It's extremely rare for a dicatator to be so all powerful that he continues to rule a country for this long after leading that country into a complete folly of a war with attendant huge losses. History shows such rulers being ousted or killed by a resentful population. For instance, Mussolini after Italy's loss in WWII as an example.

And so here we find ourselves, wondering "now what?"


Regards,
Brian T
Old 11th March 2003
  #276
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Funny how wars always start during global recessions.
Old 11th March 2003
  #277
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BevvyB
Funny how wars always start during global recessions.
I pretty much explained why in a previous post, but where ...

malice
Old 11th March 2003
  #278
Gear Head
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: right of sovereignty

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT


So the question is not and never has been whether or not Saddam Hussein forfeited his right to rule if he violated those conditions. The only question is whether or not his violations (if any) are severe enough to warrant military force as a correction.

And who is to decide this?
Old 11th March 2003
  #279
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: right of sovereignty

Quote:
Originally posted by hodad
And who is to decide this?
I understood it was UN, but I'm so naive sometimes ...

malice
Old 11th March 2003
  #280
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nutmeg II.
I'm with you 200%!

The americans should start building cars that need less gasolin, like most of the other world does! That way oil wouldn't be an issue!

I am afraid of americans!
Jet it's oil tomorow it's the canadian/european water!

Make music not war!

This message has been brought to you by the country that was single handedly responsible for starting both world wars...
Old 12th March 2003
  #281
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by AlanThomas
This message has been brought to you by the country that was single handedly responsible for starting both world wars...
And that is the lamest, unfairest and stupidest post in this thread, so far ...

malice
Old 12th March 2003
  #282
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By the way alan, as you seem to believe nations stick to their past (at the point that a german cannot be a pacifist apparently), how would you comment this historical fact :

When France and Great Britain proposed a resolution to the UN in 1956 to obtain the authorisation to send troops to the Suez Canal in order to protect their interest, USA opposed a veto and the secretary of states representing your country at the time claimed that a military action that is not approved by UN is illegal ???

What is great with history, is that you can reverse an argumentation in no time ...

That goes for France too, of course heh

malice
Old 12th March 2003
  #283
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Quote:
Originally posted by malice
And that is the lamest, unfairest and stupidest post in this thread, so far ...

malice

Interesting. That's exactly how I felt about the post that I replied to.
Old 12th March 2003
  #284
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AlanThomas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
By the way alan, as you seem to believe nations stick to their past (at the point that a german cannot be a pacifist apparently), how would you comment this historical fact :

When France and Great Britain proposed a resolution to the UN in 1956 to obtain the authorisation to send troops to the Suez Canal in order to protect their interest, USA opposed a veto and the secretary of states representing your country at the time claimed that a military action that is not approved by UN is illegal ???

What is great with history, is that you can reverse an argumentation in no time ...

That goes for France too, of course heh

malice

I think that your conclusion, based on a single post, about what I seem to believe is a bit premature.

It's normal and natural, of course, for people, countries, societies, etc. to change thier opinion, doctrine, policy, etc. over the course of time. In fact, "that was then, this is now" is a favorite saying of mine.

However, that doesn't mean that the past is forgotten. People bring up crap from the U.S.'s past all the time for juxtaposition to current events, criticism, and satirization. That's fine, it's human nature. And being so, I'm certainly entitled to do the same.

So if I see a little historical irony in a pacifist Germany and want to make a little joke about it, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

By the way, I'm part German myself and reserve the right, under any circumstances, to talk a little **** with or about meine Brüder...
Old 12th March 2003
  #285
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recorderman's Avatar
 

Re: Re: U.S. history 101 for the weak-minded souls

Cheers Malice and all..these are VERY trying times and emotions of ALL can run high, because we all feel very strongly about these events....

...Malice, chech out your history bro...we did move into Vietnam after the ouster of the french (it was a french colony)...to keep the spread of communism from accelerating ("domino theory")...right or wrong...that's how that happened.

...John you are on to something with your comments...
..I myself since around Iran/Contra, became a big "conspiracy nut"(I've always been a history/philosophy,ect buff) years ahead of it's popularity...during that time I read many books and articles, always looking for the sources and reading them, ect.
When you REALLY dig, you find that most if not all of the current U.S. basshing fodder is a rehash of anti-U.S. propaganda that evolved and merged with the older ant-jewish propaganda and anti-capitalist propaganda from the former soviet union and proto-facist types. Rockefeller (John D. SR.) is painted wioth all of this really nasty stuff that they taught us about in 7th grade when we study monopoly...when in actuall fact he was a VERY generous person, who lived a comparatively modest life style, and gave away the majority of his money, and in the process almost single-handedly created the modern medical research institutions we have today...millions of lives have been bettered by him (these are only a small fraction of the good he did)...yet all we here are the fourth, fith and sixth generation versions of Ida Tarebells polemic against him.
Another thing...regarding thye oil biz....the big guys...you know Exxon, Standard, Shell, ect...make there real money as middle-men, so it doesn't really matter in the long run who "owns" the oil wells..since they refine/pipe/ship/and sell to the end consumer...they're always going to make a profit.
Back to the conspiracy stuff...Illuminate, ect., we have the cold war and our own media to blame (yes american media -moves, ec- are very popular around the world. Foreigners are people too (ha ha) and on average no better informed than their own self-serving media outlets. So it's easy to jump on the band wagon of the ignorant. Yes, we had watergate here in the U.S....but don't you (other nationals) GET IT! that's what makes america great...stuff like that (government corruption) happens in your countries too...they just get away with it more (on average I'd bet).

Can't really blame the germans...If I was born and raised in that country I'd probably be against ant war at any cost (considering there past)...the French thoughh...are seriously deluded...sure 10% of your population is moslem, and you worry about that...but you have no room to talk...your militaruy is all over the place doing things. You have companies selling mirage fighter jet parts to Iraq now (illegally)....You built the Iraqi reacter. We know (in the U.S. ) theat you have illusions of being the counter weight to the U.S. hegemony...that's fine...but remember...WWII happened in large part for two reasons...you're insistance of excessive reparations on germany, and then your appeasement of hitler and the foolishness of your military (the maginot line...Ha Ha Ha).

NOW....Iraq, for better or worse, invaded Kuwait a dozen years ago. The U.S. went in and oushed him out...what did the french do?...make oil deals, ect. We should have gone to baghdad (alot of Iraqis wish we had) but the UN mandate didn't call for that. The cease fire agreements and twelve resolutions did however...so now that it finacially not in frnces interests to remove Saddam, and because thaty want to thwart anything the U.S. does purely for selfish reasons with no thought of the greater world good...they take the actions they're taking.
What about North Korea? Everyone wants us to be multi-latteral with Iraq...but North Korea? Well THERE everyone wants US to do it alone....the UN and the majority of nations represented ther are weak minded children on the historical stage. Yet we have to deal with them, and give WAY more money, effort and due that they are many times justified.
There are going to be many thankfull sons and dughters, fathers and mothers when we take that M.F. Sadam out.

....Oh well...gotta head to work...got 2 1/2 track to cut today...cheers all..
Old 12th March 2003
  #286
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by AlanThomas

However, that doesn't mean that the past is forgotten.
Not forgotten, I agree, but forgiven, yes ...
I was just pointing that you might be a little too much by assimilating Nutmeg to Germany. He is a man like you and me. The country from where is from is somehow irrelevant in this discussion. Where may have an argument between pro and anti war, but I don't give a damn if some pro war is from US, France, Germany, or Turkmenistan. Beside, as Nutmeg was probably not born during WWII, and for sure during WWI, I can't see how the fact that Germany started 2 wars then has something to do with him.

Quote:
People bring up crap from the U.S.'s past all the time for juxtaposition to current events, criticism, and satirization. That's fine, it's human nature. And being so, I'm certainly entitled to do the same.
As I stated in the same post, history can show that the present situation can be reversed with US being pacifist and respectfull of UN decision, and France being beligerant and not respecting UN (like in 1956). I thing That I made my point saying France might be as coupable as US in a given historical situation.
Just to show you it is not a US bashing, in my mind, as I don't criticise Americans in a general maner, but the present decision to bomb Iraq, as I don't claim France or Germany is perfect either.

Quote:
So if I see a little historical irony in a pacifist Germany and want to make a little joke about it, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
Apart of me flaming you, and I gladly apologise if I misunderstood your point, my post was about historical Irony too.

Quote:
By the way, I'm part German myself and reserve the right, under any circumstances, to talk a little **** with or about meine Brüder...
Well, you being half German proves that individual opinions is not related to nationality or cultural origins, wich is rather comforting, don't you thing ?

Peace, mein Brüder

malice
Old 12th March 2003
  #287
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Re: Re: Re: U.S. history 101 for the weak-minded souls

Quote:
Originally posted by recorderman
Cheers Malice and all..these are VERY trying times and emotions of ALL can run high, because we all feel very strongly about these events....
Yeah, I know, and I'm sorry to sometimes use a hard tone, please believe me, my deepest beliefs are that I don't consider this war to be US war at all, but the Bush administration war, wich make a UDGE difference, as the result is that I, as the majority of the frenchs will not put our friendship (our nations historical friendship) in geopardy, as I'm sure american will still be our friends and allied after this crisis. Just to state I find this discussion more than interesting, and all you people great to keep this argument civil and manered.

Quote:
...Malice, chech out your history bro...we did move into Vietnam after the ouster of the french (it was a french colony)...to keep the spread of communism from accelerating ("domino theory")...right or wrong...that's how that happened.
Go figure, I had maximum grades at history, and I'm aware of the circumstances of Vietnam war. But you didn't lose because we lost Indochine war. We lost because we did the same mistakes.

Quote:
(the maginot line...Ha Ha Ha).
I didn't say France has not made mistakes too, and that France can't be ridiculous too HaHaHa

Quote:
what did the french do?...make oil deals, ect.
Come on, French always said that victimising Iraq with the Embargo, is victimising Saddam, and therefore, give him more power to the eyes of his people and the Arab countries. We didn't made oil deals after the war, we waited UN to authorise an oil for food plan.

Quote:
We should have gone to baghdad (alot of Iraqis wish we had) but the UN mandate didn't call for that.
So tell me, when do US respect UN resolutions ? when it pleases you ?

about Korea

The Korean big plan is clearly to deal money for giving up Nuclear weaponery.
It is a dangerous desperate game they are playing, and somehow, something more dangerous than Saddam game. I do find we should take care of that problem (as every problem resemble that) within the UN.
I'm not saying, btw, that Iraq shouldn't be disarmed, but I think that we are, as the inspection restarted, in position to disarm Saddam peacefully.
Remember that inspections, after Gulf wars, destroyed more weapons than bombings, it is something that a few people understand.


That said, happy birthday recorderman

and

Peace to everybody

malice

Old 12th March 2003
  #288
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AlanThomas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
I was just pointing that you might be a little too much by assimilating Nutmeg to Germany. He is a man like you and me. The country from where is from is somehow irrelevant in this discussion.
Actually Malice, this is really the only point on which I disagree with you.

The vaguely insulting remarks made by Nutmeg were not directed at a man. They were directed at an entire people. That, I believe, makes the country one is from highly relevant to the issue at hand.

I merely returned a vacuous, insulting remark about my country with a vacuous, insulting remark about his. Tit for tat.

It was really nothing more than that. No deep socio/political meaning, no nationalistic animosity, nothing. Basically, someone said "**** you", someone else said "**** you too", end of story. Happens all the time in the big city.
Old 12th March 2003
  #289
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malice's Avatar
 

Well, I understand your point now.



Still I find that it shouldn't be the case, and I've been really cautious not to make such assimilations (you can see that in my recent posts.
But you are right in a way, and that is why I say this again:

I disagree with the present US administration, and pro war fellawz, not with americans in general.

Damn, how can I be clearer and more polite than that heh

hehe, I'm doin my best

cheers alan

malice
Old 12th March 2003
  #290
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AlanThomas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by malice
Well, I understand your point now.



Still I find that it shouldn't be the case, and I've been really cautious not to make such assimilations (you can see that in my recent posts.
But you are right in a way, and that is why I say this again:

I disagree with the present US administration, and pro war fellawz, not with americans in general.

Damn, how can I be clearer and more polite than that heh

hehe, I'm doin my best

cheers alan

malice

You're alright with me Malice! No hard feelings here.

For the record, I'm not exactly in complete agreement with the current administration either.

It's an odd relationship though. Kind of like, you notice your girlfriend is gaining a bit of weight and maybe kind of mention it to her, encourage her to lay off the cheesecake or whatever. And then you hear a total stranger say something like "man, that chick is a porker" and you get all defensive and say "hey asshole, you can't talk about my girlfriend like that!".

Anyway, cheers to you to too! Take it easy...
Old 12th March 2003
  #291
Looks like Tony Blair's goose may be cooked.

He may get ousted for going out on limb without the mandate of the British people or his own political party.

Interesting times indeed!

Perhaps Bush will give him a job in the US foreign affairs dept.

Old 13th March 2003
  #292
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But Jules, think of the continuing irony here.

Churchill was bounced by a British populace disillusioned with him, not all that long before WWII broke out. Only to be called back into service when all hell broke loose after appeasement, which he utterly opposed, failed.

I'm not saying history will in fact repeat itself nor am I directly equating Blair to Churchill. Nevertheless, the only certainty is that there is no certainty, at least in humans. None of us has any concrete clue about the future here on planet earth. If any of us truly had a view of the future, we could be rich beyond our wildest dreams in a week.

But instead, we're all just guessing and trying to sell it like we actually know something.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 13th March 2003
  #293
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Perhaps Bush will give him a job in the US foreign affairs dept.

Or Tony will give GW a .... never mind ... that Job made me think of Monica Lewinsky or what was her name again ....
Old 14th March 2003
  #294
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

read this after downloading it

http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.u...fings/Iraq.htm
Old 14th March 2003
  #295
Gear Maniac
 
recorderman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BevvyB
read this after downloading it

http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.u...fings/Iraq.htm
won't be the first time that an expert is too deep in they're own details and misses it entirely...history points aout that most speculation on the future is a crap shoot at best (even really smart speculation). Only time will tell.

...yeah! it's friday...and these tracks I'm working on are cookin'....
Old 17th March 2003
  #296
Gear Addict
 

Haven't been following this thread, though I've been following all the insanity elsewhere. The France bashing in the states is really disturbing. I have no French ancestry, I don't speak the language, I just like the wine, cheese, and good croissants. However, this stupidity of "freedom fries", "freedom toast", and general name calling has been assinine. The closest historicaly parallel I know of is Americans renaming sauerkraut as "liberty cabage" and frankfurters as "hot dogs" durring WWI. The last I checked, the US is not at war with France or intent on bombing France. But it gets worse.

This morning I saw a disturbing escalation on the news. I was still so asleep I couldn't really process it. Someone's home had been vandalized, with something like "Go home, French scum" painted on the front of their house. What the hell? How can Americans believe that evil only exists outside their borders?

Bear
Old 17th March 2003
  #297
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

that is awful
Old 17th March 2003
  #298
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Gone Fission
Haven't been following this thread, though I've been following all the insanity elsewhere. The France bashing in the states is really disturbing. I have no French ancestry, I don't speak the language, I just like the wine, cheese, and good croissants. However, this stupidity of "freedom fries", "freedom toast", and general name calling has been assinine. The closest historicaly parallel I know of is Americans renaming sauerkraut as "liberty cabage" and frankfurters as "hot dogs" durring WWI. The last I checked, the US is not at war with France or intent on bombing France. But it gets worse.

This morning I saw a disturbing escalation on the news. I was still so asleep I couldn't really process it. Someone's home had been vandalized, with something like "Go home, French scum" painted on the front of their house. What the hell? How can Americans believe that evil only exists outside their borders?

Bear
Bear, thanx

really

malice
Old 17th March 2003
  #299
Gear Head
 

this and/or that

As we sit merrily awaiting war, I thought I'd share a couple of thoughts:
1. The Bush admin has always wanted to go to war with Iraq. The only reason diplomacy was ever pursued was because of pressure from without & also from certain folks within the admin. With that sort of mindset, is it any wonder that diplomacy has "failed"?
2. There's still no smoking gun. The Bush folks talk about Iraq's WMD, but nothing's turned up. They don't habeas a corpus, so to speak. Now, I know there's an excellent chance that Iraq possesses WMD, but if you're gonna call someone a liar you ought to have some empirical evidence to support the claim--especially with so many lives on the line.
3. The Bush admin's "diplomacy" seems to consist almost solely of bullying, bribery and fearmongering. They seem well acquainted with brinksmanship, but not nearly so familiar with statesmanship. Not exactly what one wants to see from folks who fancy themselves stewards of the free world.
Old 18th March 2003
  #300
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Messiah's Avatar
 

Sorry to divert this a touch, but I spent time reading the following last night before retiring;
WEBLINK

Whether or not you believe this kind of thing is not the point, I think it should be taken and read more as a warning. The 'New City' stuff was kinda freaky though, oh, and so was 'Hister'.
It doesn't make great bedtime reading!!
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