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12 years vocal practice, Nothing helps
Old 17th July 2020
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramps View Post
Since we know so little about his actual experience sans his few words and can only speculate his reality it's all guess work for us both. As a guitar and piano player for 50/60+ years, not breathing properly has and has had little effect on my playing...unless of course I'm turning blue from Hypoxia. But, I'm amazed at how well I actually played before numerous hand injuries (as a carpenter) 30+ years ago as opposed to now, being older and slower...and apparently not much wiser as the music teacher's words still echo in my head.

One of these days I'm gonna leave a thread and no matter what anyone says to me right as the door closes I'm leavin'. You may think me wishy washy as you see fit though. Apologies to musicians everywhere for my part in perpetuating a stereotype here.

Gramps, I don't think I've guessed at much. The diaphragm/support angle was a bit of a hunch. But I've made no assessments that didn't spring from his own words and musical efforts. My above assessments were based on my experience as a professional musician and teacher for many years and I stand by them. I really don't need to know anything more about his reality. And for what it's worth, I'd have probably said largely the same stuff whether I played the marimba or the accordion, the pipe organ or the piano. Sorry to contradict you. I'm sure you know your biz...and I know mine.

Yeah, the neck injury in 2002 didn't do my playing any favors either. I was sidelined all the way to last Xmas. Then I tried something new for the pain that actually worked, wasn't harmful by most accounts, and also left me able to function. I was actually pretty sure I'd be able to get back on stage and then...well...you know. Snufaruffaruflesnuff.

Last edited by GearFiddler; 17th July 2020 at 07:02 PM..
Old 18th July 2020
  #32
Gear Addict
 

and I'm sure you won't be the last to disagree with me. Debate makes life interesting if not fun if kept cordial. Sorry to hear about the neck injury as I have been told 3 times I'll never play again and in a way it's true. I never get back to where I was before the accidents then again I'll never be that young again either. Stay safe.

g
Old 18th July 2020
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramps View Post
It's not about loudness per se, it's about confidence in your ability.

...

Then, maybe concentrate on writing good material that someone with "the voice" can give you another kind of success in this business.

g
Confidence in your ability. That really says it right there.

So, I think we agree to some degree. I just maintain that usually it's best if the cart, (confidence) is behind the horse (ability).
Sometimes though if someone is way up in their shell musicianship issues do indeed present themselves because they are simply not fully engaged and the necessary physical demeanor can't come into play. (I've known singers who put every fibre of their being into it, from their toes right on up to their eyeballs...and they don't need a guitar to hold either. )

Sometimes a different mindset, or a couple of beers is all it takes.

But I don't think that's the issue here as much as plain and simple skills and ability are.

If the OP were a violin student of mine I'd check his ears and their ability to discern pitch/intonation foremost, and if after trying everything I can think of to get him zeroed in it just isn't there, I'd certainly be in full agreement with the second sentence of yours that I quoted.

Of course, these days with a bit of work it's possible to tune it all up after the fact. But as others have noted, there are other issues.

Sorry about your hand. I can relate. The avatar is an old pic. I'm 57.

Pain, at the occipital base of the skull in my case, really puts a damper on things.
I'm thankful to have finally found something that allows me some ability to play again. Not all that rusty really, but have precious few illusions about any sort of return for me at this point. That's OK. Sometimes it's enough just to be in less pain.

Old 19th July 2020
  #34
Gear Addict
 

Getting old is a pain. I also had (their words not mine) a TIA in January. What's interesting is that everything on one (right) side is experienced as it should be, hot, cold sensations etc. But on my left side the experience is a polar opposite at normal levels but go above or below that point it's like sticking your finger in an electrical outlet. How does one tell one side of the brain that the other is not reacting properly? One time I did put an ice cube in both hands at the same time; both registered the cold but that was never repeated so what's cold and wet in the right hand is warm and dry in the left. Yep, getting old is a pain...if it doesn't kill you first. ;o)

It must have been in a private email/message to me where he mentioned the confidence or lack there of issue as I cannot find it's mention here. So I will not say what he said.

g
Old 19th July 2020
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramps View Post
Getting old is a pain. I also had (their words not mine) a TIA in January. What's interesting is that everything on one (right) side is experienced as it should be, hot, cold sensations etc. But on my left side the experience is a polar opposite at normal levels but go above or below that point it's like sticking your finger in an electrical outlet. How does one tell one side of the brain that the other is not reacting properly? One time I did put an ice cube in both hands at the same time; both registered the cold but that was never repeated so what's cold and wet in the right hand is warm and dry in the left. Yep, getting old is a pain...if it doesn't kill you first. ;o)

It must have been in a private email/message to me where he mentioned the confidence or lack there of issue as I cannot find it's mention here. So I will not say what he said.

g
Getting old beats the alternative, I reckon. And as many a tall building or high bridge knows, it's not for the faint of heart. Getting knocked off the stage (literally) in your prime, losing your livelihood and living with the equivalent of a really bad migraine day after day for for almost 2 decades ain't no picnic. When it's really bad it shoots/radiates forward into my forehead and eye sockets.

But I am still here, thanks to some fortitude I had no idea I was capable of...and a good woman.

I struggled with confidence issues and performance anxiety for just about as long. I overcame that too. So I really do believe I know from whence I speak. Ultimately there has to be something worthy of having confidence in. One's dependable skills and abilities, for instance.

I posed a question to the OP, perhaps he will return with an answer. If not, I understand. It might be a wrap for me as I type that a teacher can only show you the way and provide techniques and tools that are helpful if not instrumental to assist you on your way. But if you don't embrace them, or at least give them serious consideration and put them to sincere use, they can't help you.

Some people have to work harder for it. It's not fair. I know.
Old 19th July 2020
  #36
Gear Addict
 

+ 1 on the good woman...47 years here.

I've only been on stage once (long story that I won't bore anyone with). Actually I was under a table in front...man, I am not stage material.
Old 22nd July 2020
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramps View Post
Either his vocal coaches were just being nice by not being honest about his talent or lack there of. Or they got their money and quietly walked away.

g
I hate to see an elephant go hungry.

Anybody else see a big 'ol hefalump in the room? A hellable horilump?

SHHhhh...be vewy vewy quiet. Pachydoim twaks!

Is it any worse to do what one can as a teacher to help someone to simply sing better if nothing else... than it is for a recording studio to apply the music version of photoshop to their recorded efforts?

What about those who sing through AT live, or lip-sync to their prerecorded tuned vocals? How honest is that?

How many studio engineers get their money and quietly walk away?

Why not have a talent check at the door? Those that don't make it up to the bar get summarily turned away.

When I was in grad school I taught violin lessons as part of a project for inner city kids. I saw the full gamut of talent levels. There was one girl out of about 40 students that had nothing to work with. Nada. She was dealt no music cards whatsoever that I could tell. I didn't tell her though. As much or more than the rest I did what I could to be kind and to help her to have an enjoyable experience knowing full well there wasn't a snowballs chance. Thirty-two years later and I'm still not sorry, nor do I feel like I did something wrong.

I think I prefer the musician/teacher side of the coin.
Old 22nd July 2020
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
I hate to see an elephant go hungry.

Anybody else see a big 'ol hefalump in the room? A hellable horilump?

SHHhhh...be vewy vewy quiet. Pachydoim twaks!

Is it any worse to do what one can as a teacher to help someone to simply sing better if nothing else... than it is for a recording studio to apply the music version of photoshop to their recorded efforts?

What about those who sing through AT live, or lip-sync to their prerecorded tuned vocals? How honest is that?

How many studio engineers get their money and quietly walk away?

Why not have a talent check at the door? Those that don't make it up to the bar get summarily turned away.

When I was in grad school I taught violin lessons as part of a project for inner city kids. I saw the full gamut of talent levels. There was one girl out of about 40 students that had nothing to work with. Nada. She was dealt no music cards whatsoever that I could tell. I didn't tell her though. As much or more than the rest I did what I could to be kind and to help her to have an enjoyable experience knowing full well there wasn't a snowballs chance. Thirty-two years later and I'm still not sorry, nor do I feel like I did something wrong.

I think I prefer the musician/teacher side of the coin.
I’m not sure there’s any elephant in the room.

If you’re hired as a producer, your job is to get a good recording. It doesn’t matter how you do that up to a point - I mean, ideally you want everyone to have a great time and want to come back and work with you, but in practice it doesn’t really matter how you achieve it. If the artist can replicate it live isn’t your issue.

If you’re a singing teacher, your job is to give the student the tools to improve. Actually improving is usually up to them, but your job is to make that as achievable as possible.

They’re different roles aren’t they? And neither is dishonest.
Old 22nd July 2020
  #39
Gear Addict
 

I held the talent that came into my studio to the same standards as I held myself. Perfection...no...best effort...yes. I had a performer who on his first album (now you know how long ago that was) who was Mr. 1 Take. His second effort many years later involved 20 - 30 takes per vowel or consonant rather than use AutoTune etc. (which I owned 1 of the first 50 hardware units and first few replacement software units). Yes, we experimented with the today's ever so present (pre Cher) and over used effect declaring it useless and artificial. Nut we, the artist and I wanted their take, not some artificially created performance.

g
Old 23rd July 2020
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramps View Post
I held the talent that came into my studio to the same standards as I held myself. Perfection...no...best effort...yes. I had a performer who on his first album (now you know how long ago that was) who was Mr. 1 Take. His second effort many years later involved 20 - 30 takes per vowel or consonant rather than use AutoTune etc. (which I owned 1 of the first 50 hardware units and first few replacement software units). Yes, we experimented with the today's ever so present (pre Cher) and over used effect declaring it useless and artificial. Nut we, the artist and I wanted their take, not some artificially created performance.

g
I like the cut of your jib, sir!

Yeah, I'm a bit dismayed I suppose at the Frankenstein-ing that takes place. Particularly in the classical world, which I come from. It's not a lot of skin off of my back that pop music is often the rough equivalent of a super hero movie as far as how it's made goes. But really good classical players taking things a note or two at a time to hit some artificial level of perfection, or to match some other artist's or orchestra's effort towards the same is off the deep end and sad, I think. My mom, a pianist, had a Glenn Gould recording of the Brahms Intermezzos, and I used to listen to it from time to time as a teenager. I thought that while beautiful of course, they seemed generally rather careful, even plodding at times. Some years later I found out about his M.O. and I thought well, no wonder.

My own tendency is toward maximum preparation on my part. I used to stack violins with a small crew for a studio. We could read. Like it was the morning paper.
We'd show up and play what was on the stand a few times and pack up and leave. Any pass that wasn't a keeper was kind of embarrassing, and that didn't happen often.

Though there's no reading involved with my own music, that is still generally my approach. I'm not a purist really - not above a comp or two. A while after my neck was injured I in fact added the TC Helicon VoiceOne to my studio, thinking I had to continue on as the good days permit and I had a fair excuse since my ability to play and prep as I always had was severely compromised. But I just couldn't stomach it. Dumbest purchase ever. I never did print a mix with it having been used to tune anything. Fortunately I can play quite a bit more now, and it does some other stuff that's cool. But, it's easier to just get it right at the violin for me, or to change my approach in some other way.

If my studio were open to the public, I like to think I'd hold folks to a similar if a bit less stringent standard. If I detect a lack of prep the door swings back open with a "Go Practice". But they'd probably just go somewhere else where the phrase is, "yeah sure, come on in we'll whip that together for ya".

It's just no longer realistic to expect that level of preparedness though. Perhaps it wasn't ever exactly common. But I gather that now it's more like 'gimme a tan and lose the crow's feet. And it might be nice if my waist was in about 5 inches and my eyebrows were longer. No wait, not that long, and thicker too please. Oh and can you make me taller?'

And we're just glad that they said "please". How anyone on the artist's side of the glass could be proud of something like that is beyond me.
Old 23rd July 2020
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I’m not sure there’s any elephant in the room.

If you’re hired as a producer, your job is to get a good recording. It doesn’t matter how you do that up to a point - I mean, ideally you want everyone to have a great time and want to come back and work with you, but in practice it doesn’t really matter how you achieve it. If the artist can replicate it live isn’t your issue.

If you’re a singing teacher, your job is to give the student the tools to improve. Actually improving is usually up to them, but your job is to make that as achievable as possible.

They’re different roles aren’t they? And neither is dishonest.
Fair enough. Just wanted to get that straight.

artistus pachydermus horibilus
Old 24th July 2020
  #42
Gear Addict
 

The only times my "ideals" would lead them elsewhere was suggesting to a parent their prodigy needed more practice and could do it for way less money at home rather than on the studio clock. I must add that much of the take after take on my insistence was on my dime and not the clients. You never knew when the "best" would happen but did when it showed up.

g
Old 24th July 2020
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I’m not sure there’s any elephant in the room.

If you’re hired as a producer, your job is to get a good recording. It doesn’t matter how you do that up to a point - I mean, ideally you want everyone to have a great time and want to come back and work with you, but in practice it doesn’t really matter how you achieve it. If the artist can replicate it live isn’t your issue.

If you’re a singing teacher, your job is to give the student the tools to improve. Actually improving is usually up to them, but your job is to make that as achievable as possible.

They’re different roles aren’t they? And neither is dishonest.
Actually, to clarify, and get it straight -er. I didn't mention the producer.

I specifically mentioned the recording engineer....because he/she has a certain task to perform and much like the teacher, that's where his/her responsibility stops. The job description doesn't include weighing in on whether so and so has what it takes...necessarily. "Take their money and walk away" was the phrase gramps used, and so I used it as well. While it's not exactly a warm and fuzzy way to put it....well yeah, the teacher waits in their studio for the next student, and the engineer does something not too different. It's "next" for both if I'm not mistaken.

The only honesty that I brought into question was that of the artist.

And as far as producers, or managers go, there's good and bad and some in between from my experience and from what I've heard and read.
Old 26th July 2020
  #44
Lives for gear
Do not give up. You can train your voice it takes time. I used to be a bad singer but thankfully I trained and pretty happy with the results. So if I can learn anybody can. And I teach beginners. Do not give up.
Old 26th July 2020
  #45
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

I put bologna in my shoes.
- Steve Martin
Old 27th July 2020
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
The job description doesn't include weighing in on whether so and so has what it takes...necessarily.
Sorry to self quote- but continuing on a bit, and to address the reason I said "necessarily". Sometimes it is part of the job. Students had to play juries for the relevant faculty and got graded, and were sent home sometimes when I was at The North Carolina School Of The Arts. Often times it was the sight-singing/rhythmic-training 'boot camp' that tripped people up. They gave you one year to pass the course as I remember. The woman that taught the class took it really seriously - it gave her ulcers so bad her doctor said she may as well smoke cigarettes if it helped her to cope. So she took up smoking. That was the story anyway.

And we were pretty stressed as well.

The drama department would cull the herd every so often. It was the teachers that made the call. I had a friend that got sent home. It messed with him big time.

And so it was teachers, either alone or as a group that makes up a faculty, largely but not entirely through grades- and whatever additional assessment was required- that separated the wheat from the chafe as it were.

Maybe some private teachers take it upon themselves to shut their door to those lacking talent, or the drive to improve. Certainly, if one is a much sought after teacher...there's only so much room. My mom taught 35-40 piano students a week, 335 days a year for 71 years. AFAIK, she never had to show anyone the door.
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