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Old 6 days ago
  #1561
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
The "sweethearts" are the touchy part Einstein.
No, they are expressions of love and forgiveness. It is because I think you deserve a chance to be loved, even though failures of thinking cloud your mind. I am like that: Generous! Until the point where you have repeated your failures so many times that you deserve to be called an idiot instead. But even at that point, it does not mean one cannot love you. Rest assured.
Old 6 days ago
  #1562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Eye View Post
I can normally judge music in 3-5 seconds
What a ****ing genius
Old 6 days ago
  #1563
Gear Head
 
drcmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
The "sweethearts" are the touchy part Einstein.

(why do I sink to getting caught up in this stuff? )
Careful. This has become The IncarnateX show.
Passive agression abounds....
Old 6 days ago
  #1564
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drcmusic View Post
Passive agression abounds....
When I am agressive, I am not passive but active. Why wouldn't I be? Who'd stop me? I my case, passive aggression would certainly be an oxymoron.
Old 6 days ago
  #1565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomás Mulcahy View Post
What a ****ing genius
Its fairly common in music and media production to refer to the the 3 second test (or 5 second test or whatever few-second mark), the 15 second test, and the 30 second test.

Most listeners won't get past 3-5 seconds in trying something new.

If the music is country (or whatever), and they don't feel like country, nothing else in the composition or production or the intricacy of the harmony or the chorus hook matter, the song is already skipped. If the first 3-5 seconds sound "wack" or "cheap" or "cheesy" or "boring" or "wrong" or "not my thing" or whatever, same thing. The 3 second test is the strongest determinant in whether people listen to something new. If "the sound of the record" is off to a listener, they don't listen.
Old 6 days ago
  #1566
Gear Head
 
drcmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
When I am agressive, I am not passive but active. Why wouldn't I be? Who'd stop me? I my case, passive agression would certainly be an oxymoron.
What?
Old 6 days ago
  #1567
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
Its fairly common in music and media production to refer to the the 3 second test (or 5 second test or whatever few-second mark), the 15 second test, and the 30 second test.

Most listeners won't get back 3-5 seconds in trying something new.

If the music is country (or whatever), and they don't feel like country, nothing else in the composition or production or the intricacy of the harmony or the chorus hook matter, the song is already skipped. If the first 3-5 seconds sound "wack" or "cheap" or "cheesy" or whatever, same thing. The 3 second test is the strongest determinant in whether people listen.
And that will make the OP's 3-5 seconds omnipotent assessments right by default? Seems like you missed a point here.
Old 6 days ago
  #1568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
And that will make the OP's 3-5 seconds omnipotent assessments right by default? Seems like you missed a point here.
The OP is representative of the typical music listener, by far.

Just using the conversation to lend information, for anyone reading this for something other than grown man drama.
Old 6 days ago
  #1569
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
The OP is representative of the typical music listener, by far.
That was a good one. I certainly hope not, and ask you once again to provide statistics for your claims, or else it will be hard for me and probably a few more to reach suspension of disbelief. And it would be an insult to typical music listeners too.
Old 6 days ago
  #1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
Its fairly common in music and media production to refer to the the 3 second test (or 5 second test or whatever few-second mark), the 15 second test, and the 30 second test.
Yes it is, but it has nothing to do with the discussion here. We are not talking about whether the average person likes a song or not. We are talking about something to do with music theory and innovation. The point is, the OP is making ridiculous conclusions with no research, no critical listening, it's all just out of his own ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
The OP is representative of the typical music listener, by far.
I think the OP's ego would disagree with you And again such a generalisation is not relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
Just using the conversation to lend information, for anyone reading this for something other than grown man drama.
No, you are really doing a form of gainsaying.
Old 6 days ago
  #1571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
That was a good one. I certainly hope not, and ask you once again to provide statistics for your claims, or else it will be hard for me and probably a few more to reach suspension of disbelief. And it would be an insult to typical music listeners too.
The 3-5 second test is well known in art and design man. People give new things a try for a couple seconds. If they're not feeling it by that point, they move on. Which makes the OP representative of the typical music/art/media/content consumer in this regard.

https://usabilityhub.com/guides/five-second-testing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomás Mulcahy View Post
And you are participating in the drama so beware of such criticisms.
Already acknowledged a few posts up. I'm certainly critical of myself for this I don't live in a world where I'm reframing everything so I'm perfect, I'm happy to note where I'm lacking.
Old 6 days ago
  #1572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
That was a good one. I certainly hope not, and ask you once again to provide statistics for your claims, or else it will be hard for me and probably a few more to reach suspension of disbelief. And it would be an insult to typical music listeners too.
He's right though unfortunately.

There's a lot of silly ideas, prejudice, stereotypes, all sorts of bollocks out there really.

Plenty are threatened by education as well because deep down they probably know they are fooling themselves.

Even as a kid, I learnt to just hide it.
Old 6 days ago
  #1573
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
The 3-5 second test is well known in art and design man. People give new things a try for a couple seconds. If they're not feeling it by that point, they move on.

https://usabilityhub.com/guides/five-second-testing




Already acknowledged a few posts up. I'm certainly critical of myself for this I don't live in a world where I'm reframing everything so I'm perfect, I'm happy to note where I'm lacking.
You're lacking in relevance. Read the link. The test determines opinion- like or dislike of a work of art. We are not discussing opinion here, we are discussing music theory and innovation. To find those answers, the challenge of deeper critical listening must be met. Listening to stuff you don't like. Putting your tastes, and even your prejudices aside. Even music you hate, has something for you to learn from, if you wish to learn about innovation. That's longer than 5 ****ing seconds. No pain, no gain. The point was aimed at the OP and now you're gainsaying it, going down another rabbit hole
Old 6 days ago
  #1574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drcmusic View Post
What?
What? I am not passive aggressive when I am aggressive but actively aggressive.
There it was again. Which part of the message is causing you trouble?
Old 6 days ago
  #1575
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
Which makes the OP representative of the typical music/art/media/content consumer in this regard.
Because he claims he judges music in about the same time? Are you ready to take his word for it, really? You just don't think, like I do, that he does not really listen but just confirms his bias in less than 5 seconds? This will not help make him an average listener. Cannot consider the OP a reliable source at all.
Old 6 days ago
  #1576
Gear Head
 
Terrible.Bee's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
But, there’s nothing wrong with traditional music forms. I really well done rock song is a thing of beauty.Good is good. Don’t overthink it.
You nailed it! All music builds on the previous generation's efforts. Anyone who thinks they're doing something different in 2020 is deluded. Its not the destination folks, its the journey. Enjoy the long road, stop and smell the flowers, stop and play a CS-80 or Timbre Wolf, travel across the country in a van with a bunch of smelly guys playing dive bars until you get your first record deal. It took me many long years.....but it was worth every second. Don't become jaded, enjoy the journey. Case closed.
Old 6 days ago
  #1577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
Because he claims he judges music in about the same time? Are you ready to take his word for it, really? You just don't think, like I do, that he does not really listen but just confirms his bias in less than 5 seconds? This will not help make him an average listener. Cannot consider the OP a reliable source at all.
Yeah you got a few seconds to get past the entirety of the average listener's lifetime of accumulated psychology, biases and all. Its much much more about playing to biases than overriding them.
Old 6 days ago
  #1578
Gear Head
 
drcmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
What? I am not passive aggressive when I am aggressive but actively aggressive.
There it was again. Which part of the message is causing you trouble?
Ohhhhhhkayyyy
Moving on....
Old 6 days ago
  #1579
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
Yeah you got a few seconds to get past the entirety of the average listener's lifetime of accumulated psychology, biases and all. Its much much more about playing to biases than overriding them.
So you take his words for it without further question? He actually spends whole 5 seconds before he decides? Whatever but from the deviant and infantile behavior he has shown here, I find it pretty hard to conclude that he is an average listener even if he actually spends whole 5 seconds before his bias is confirmed. Maybe representative for the average kiddo. At the end of the day, he was not among the subjects of the investigation, right? So this is not about him but you making an odd generalization based on reported timespan versus investigated timespans despite the unreliability of the source.
Old 6 days ago
  #1580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
So you take his words for it without further question. He actually spends whole 5 seconds before he decides? Whatever but from the deviant and infantile behavior he has shown here, I find it pretty hard to conclude that he is an average listener even if he actually spends whole 5 seconds before his bias is confirmed. Maybe representative for the average kiddo. At the end of the day, he was not among the subjects of the investigation, right? So this is not about him but you making an odd generalization based on reported timespan versus investigated timespans despite the unreliability of the source.
You’re so far down the rabbit hole of whatever this thread has become man.

Just making a point that most everyone makes most decisions about creative content (and many other decisions) within a few seconds. The book Blink explores this, it’s more pop psychology but it’s a good read
Old 6 days ago
  #1581
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Wonderful term "Passive Aggression". We had a teacher in Abnormal Psychology who would claim it about students who objected to his faith in it. Very self-reinforcing. Lord, did he get complaints running up the pipeline to our boards. But very useful term:

1. If you disagree with me violently, you are actively aggressive
2. if you disagree with me politely, you are passive aggressive

Wow. A gift from psychology to the average internet user. Enjoy.
Old 6 days ago
  #1582
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
You’re so far down the rabbit hole of whatever this thread has become man.

Just making a point that most everyone makes most decisions about creative content (and many other decisions) within a few seconds. The book Blink explores this, it’s more pop psychology but it’s a good read
Whatever, I just disbelief that this criterion makes the OP an average listener even if we could take his word for it, which we cannot.

Cannot see it makes any difference to anything. If you find it informative, go ahead, but your generalizations to the OP are not convincing.
Old 6 days ago
  #1583
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
You’re so far down the rabbit hole of whatever this thread has become man.

Just making a point that most everyone makes most decisions about creative content (and many other decisions) within a few seconds. The book Blink explores this, it’s more pop psychology but it’s a good read
Are you sure it applies to temporal art such as music? Because the link you posted is about visual work. What exactly does the book Blink say about this? You know what I mean by temporal right? Am I going to have to unpack that?

Also it's really weird that you are use the term "rabbit hole" right after I point out that you yourself have created another one, and here we are in it. Seems like you are not really paying attention.
Old 6 days ago
  #1584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomás Mulcahy View Post
Are you sure it applies to temporal art such as music? Because the link you posted is about visual work. What exactly does the book Blink say about this? You know what I mean by temporal right? Am I going to have to unpack that?

Also it's really weird that you are use the term "rabbit hole" right after I point out that you yourself have created another one, and here we are in it. Seems like you are not really paying attention.
Its just something I've come across from a number of different places regarding audience testing, first from an audio production professor in college I believe. There's the 5 second test, the 15 second test, and the 30 second test. Its to help you determine how potent your music is, as you play your music for people, pay attention to whether they've engaged or disengaged in some way by these points.

Spotify would have the closest thing to quantifiable date on listening behaviors I would guess. 25% of songs streamed on Spotify are skipped within 5 seconds. 30% are skipped by 30 seconds, and 48% are skipped before the end. So that first five seconds is very powerful, half of song skips happen within the first 5 seconds.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-study-reveals

Yes, this is a semi-related divergence from where the conversation was at. If you don't want to talk about it just ignore.
Old 6 days ago
  #1585
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badmark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomás Mulcahy View Post
FWIW I agree that the word should not have been used the way it was. On the other hand, IMHO 95% of your contribution to this thread has been mere gainsaying, the other 5% not really helpful one way or the other. So I suspect you're not really as offended as you claim. Just sayin'.
Well, hats off to you for keeping tabs, though I suspect that means I'm trending above average contribution-wise. Perhaps my views on this subject are a bit agnostic. On the one hand I was in a band for quite a while with a guy out of The Exploited. On the other, I did read 'Boulez on Music Today' at rather too young an age

However, where did I claim to be 'offended'? I don't see how you get that from 'very stupid', nor was I the one who started deflection-bleating about 'complain to the mods, then.'

Mind you, IncarnateX's responses have become increasingly offensive in terms of their intellectual dishonesty, and his last statement before I put him on ignore, " I said rape therefore I am a raping sexist" is just embarrassing, really.
Old 6 days ago
  #1586
WDM
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WDM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnorionsound View Post
Its just something I've come across from a number of different places regarding audience testing, first from an audio production professor in college I believe. There's the 5 second test, the 15 second test, and the 30 second test. Its to help you determine how potent your music is, as you play your music for people, pay attention to whether they've engaged or disengaged in some way by these points.

Spotify would have the closest thing to quantifiable date on listening behaviors I would guess. 25% of songs streamed on Spotify are skipped within 5 seconds. 30% are skipped by 30 seconds, and 48% are skipped before the end. So that first five seconds is very powerful, half of song skips happen within the first 5 seconds.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-study-reveals

Yes, this is a semi-related divergence from where the conversation was at. If you don't want to talk about it just ignore.
That test is good only for one thing, it gives the "ball park" how listeners are using their time, and how much to invest in the art from the companies that want to invest or pay for the usage of the art.

I do the same thing when I need to get through a pile of garbage in hope to find anything useful, or potentially useful. You have limited amount of time, you have thousands of files to get through, but the work somehow needs to be done.

That's where it all came from.

Now, 5 seconds at 120 BPM is basically first 4 bars... how the hell you can determine the quality of the music if you didn't pass the intro?

Especially, in dance music... when usually first 4 bars are used by DJ's to sync the transition?

so if you want to talk about innovation and quality of music you can happily ignore those metrics along with the professors. It's not their expertise. Because those metrics are definitely are not the criteria in context of that discussion.

That is also a potential takeaway, that majority of the listeners can't appreciate and distinguish the high quality music from the garbage.. because they all are busy with clicking and overwhelmed with quantity they need to go through to get some potential "reward" for the monthly service payment fee.
Old 6 days ago
  #1587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDM View Post
That test is good only for one thing, it gives the "ball park" how listeners are using their time, and how much to invest in the art from the companies that want to invest or pay for the usage of the art.

I do the same thing when I need to get through a pile of garbage in hope to find anything useful, or potentially useful. You have limited amount of time, you have thousands of files to get through, but the work somehow needs to be done.

That's where it all came from.

Now, 5 seconds at 120 BPM is basically first 4 bars... how the hell you can determine the quality of the music if you didn't pass the intro?

Especially, in dance music... when usually first 4 bars are used by DJ's to sync the transition?

so if you want to talk about innovation and quality of music you can happily ignore those metrics along with the professors. It's not their expertise. Because those metrics are definitely are not the criteria in context of that discussion.

That is also a potential takeaway, that majority of the listeners can't appreciate and distinguish the high quality music from the garbage.. because they all are busy with clicking and overwhelmed with quantity they need to go through to get some potential "reward" for the monthly service payment fee.
Id also add people seem to have a very short attention span these days. I used to listen to whole albums over and over as a kid in the 80s. They're living in an age of constant bombardment of the senses. You'll never have another Rock n Roll, Punk, Hip Hop or Rave revolution again were everyone gets into an underground scene. They have everything and nothing at the same time. My mate calls them the random playlist generation or something like that, can't remember his exact words - but that sentiment.
Old 6 days ago
  #1588
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Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by breakmixer View Post
My mate calls them the random playlist generation or something like that, can't remember his exact words - but that sentiment.
Indeed.
Old 6 days ago
  #1589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark View Post
Mind you, IncarnateX's responses have become increasingly offensive in terms of their intellectual dishonesty, and his last statement before I put him on ignore, " I said rape therefore I am a raping sexist" is just embarrassing, really.
Cry me a river. For the use of a metaphor. How patethic. Well, someone obviously needs something, anything, to make up for the fact that they cannot argue their case concerning “the tragedy” of being trained or whatever.

And here is the full quote instead of your selective and transparent choice of snippet. It was a question, not a statement.

Quote:
Is this your way out? I said rape therefore I am a raping sexist and therefore I am wrong on all accounts?
Answer is obviously yes. Your way out. Bye-bye coward.
Old 6 days ago
  #1590
Re the 'my natural artistic self was waylaid - crushed by the system'.

My dad the voice professor hated popular music from Elvis on. HATED IT!
There was no room for snobbery because pure hatred took up all the space.
I was in my room after school one day listening to "The Great Gig In The Sky" when he stuck his head in and said with a sneer, "How can any son of mine listen to that crap!"

A few days later I was listening to Kansas Masque when he stuck his head in and said much the same. I was ready for him. I calmly walked over to my stereo and lifted the record off the turntable and winged it at him. He barely got the door closed a ways as it arrived, shattering into pieces.

The following summer I was at a music camp in the Rockies. One day I was in one of the practice chalets jamming with a Tommy Bolin album when my violin teacher for the summer came barging in yelling about how I was abusing my talent. He closed the door and left. I went over to the window and watched him walk away and once he was out of likely earshot I started the record over and continued on my merry way. Yeah, I had to keep an eye peeled for my dad, and the violin teacher for a while. The related events may have been acutely distressful to a small degree - but mostly it was water off a ducks back and I redoubled my extracurricular efforts. What doesn't stop me only makes me stronger.

A few years later when I was meeting with a WEA A&R guy my dad had nothing disparaging to say at all. He was rather supportive, actually.

Anyway, at no time during my years of school did anyone ever tell me what to write, or how to write it, or in any way get in my way. I was given tools plain and simple. I had my share of theory. It was required to get the degrees. Voice leading was the easiest for me. It, along with other matters theoretical was simply a description of what my ears already seemed to understand.

That said, I can probably count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of times in many years of songwriting when I had to check some theory. I don't think I ever have actually.

And at this point it seems to me the world is littered with easy bake booty shake music and I find the whole idea of the suppressed natural artistic tendencies of the common man to be weak at best.

RUUUuuuu... Ever since Og hit log theory exist. Og like hit log. It make Ugastasia move nice. One day Ugastasia hit another log at same time as Og. It make different note. Ugastasia say it interval and call it augmented 4th. Og sad. Magic gone when Og know what different sound called. Og confused. Brain hurt. Theory kill Og creativity and innovation. Og pout and get up. Og leave. Ugastasia laugh and find someone else to hit Og log.
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