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The Music Streaming Business Model is wrong, Should still have to purchase music
Old 4th April 2020
  #121
Gear Maniac
 
denstrow's Avatar
Like other people here, I doubt there's any going back to the old days, for better or for worse. Of course as musicians we can still organise to make our voice heard and demand a more fair share of the pie than now, but unless we *really* come together, I don't expect much.

I think at some point we'll see the introduction of a universal basic income, and whatever you can make on top of that, good for you. Time will tell if, in those days, things will be better.
Old 4th April 2020
  #122
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearrhea View Post
I never blindly rely on statistics, I'd have to research them.
What statistic? It is not a statistic. It is the official total for the whole recording industry for the US for 2019. Those are the numbers from the Recording Industry of America. The official trade organisation that represents the US recording industry.

Quote:
my guess is it has to do with volume (not db, content population) and sync.
No sync, isn't much. About 5.2% of the market globally.

And what do you mean by volume? Because it is high volume? It is the total revenue of the entire US recording industry for 2019. It is the entire market!

Why did you start a thread with the topic "The Music Streaming Business Model is wrong" when you clearly know nothing about the music industry?

Quote:
Also, is it really saying much if the profits should be exponentially higher considering technological accessibility?
Why should it be higher? Higher compared to what? To before? Before YouTube, a zillion games to play (often free), a trillion channels on TV, Facebook, Instagram, SnapChat, smart phones, tablets Etc etc etc

Technological accessibility (the term actually means something else but lets run with it) has resulted in intense competition for our attention from all directions. Music has to compete much more than it ever did yet it is doing better than ever.

Quote:
ie, it's not as impressive of a record-break as it could/should be if the business model were actually fair.
And again you just make stuff up. You have no idea if the business model is fair or not because you know absolutely nothing about the business model. It isn't just that you don't know where to look, you don't even recognise the very best source to check when it is offered to you on a silver platter. (You didn't even look at it).

----

Anyway, as I wrote earlier, as block-chain technology further advances and is further adopted, it will be used for streaming too. It will allow micro-payments for each play. This will be entirely transparent. You won't have to click on any buy button. You will log into your account like you do with Spotify or whatever and there will be a small sum deducted from your account for each play.

Before you get too exited, it won't be $0.05. It will be more like $0.005 cents. But it will add up with all the plays just as it does now. (If you get enough plays of course).

Whys is this interesting? Three main reasons:

- Easy use. You create your Spotify (or whatever) account. Put some money on it (or link it to a bank account/ PayPal or whatever) and then you can just play whatever you want and a tiny tiny fee will be deducted each time. You will hardly notice it it is so small but it will add up on the content owner's side. (If popular enough of course).

- Full accountability and transparency. An artists will be able to look at the block-chain, look up a specific key that corresponds with a specific song and you have a full record of all plays and the exact amount of money you have right to. (No need for any middle men!!!) IMO this is a very important step forward.

- No more adds! This is HUGE! The current business model for platforms like YouTube, Facebook etc is advertising. They sell your attention span to the advertisers and they also sell your information to the advertisers (and others of course) that in turn use that data to better target the adverts back at you.

There are all sorts of issues of privacy, asymmetric power relationships between the platforms and their clients and between the platforms and the advertisers. The platforms have huge power to manipulate the users and huge amounts of information to sell to third parties (often stuff you don't even know about yourself!). This in itself is one of the biggest problems that society faces. Any technology that allows us to move away from the current advertisement model is a good thing.

The platforms like Google and Facebook currently have no choice but to use the advertisement model because they have no other business model. That changes with true micro payment systems. This allows a new business model based on fair payment based on actual usage.

And the micro payment model goes both ways! Say you make a good post on FB and it is shared a million times. Now you just get an ego kick out of it (maybe) but what if you could get some money back for the fact that you are effectively a content creator on the platform? You are helping making FB more interesting for users, you should have a share of the profits.

Alistair
Old 4th April 2020
  #123
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
What statistic? It is not a statistic. It is the official total for the whole recording industry for the US for 2019. Those are the numbers from the Recording Industry of America. The official trade organisation that represents the US recording industry.



No sync, isn't much. About 5.2% of the market globally.

And what do you mean by volume? Because it is high volume? It is the total revenue of the entire US recording industry for 2019. It is the entire market!

Why did you start a thread with the topic "The Music Streaming Business Model is wrong" when you clearly know nothing about the music industry?



Why should it be higher? Higher compared to what? To before? Before YouTube, a zillion games to play (often free), a trillion channels on TV, Facebook, Instagram, SnapChat, smart phones, tablets Etc etc etc

Technological accessibility (the term actually means something else but lets run with it) has resulted in intense competition for our attention from all directions. Music has to compete much more than it ever did yet it is doing better than ever.



And again you just make stuff up. You have no idea if the business model is fair or not because you know absolutely nothing about the business model. It isn't just that you don't know where to look, you don't even recognise the very best source to check when it is offered to you on a silver platter. (You didn't even look at it).

----

Anyway, as I wrote earlier, as block-chain technology further advances and is further adopted, it will be used for streaming too. It will allow micro-payments for each play. This will be entirely transparent. You won't have to click on any buy button. You will log into your account like you do with Spotify or whatever and there will be a small sum deducted from your account for each play.

Before you get too exited, it won't be $0.05. It will be more like $0.005 cents. But it will add up with all the plays just as it does now. (If you get enough plays of course).

Whys is this interesting? Three main reasons:

- Easy use. You create your Spotify (or whatever) account. Put some money on it (or link it to a bank account/ PayPal or whatever) and then you can just play whatever you want and a tiny tiny fee will be deducted each time. You will hardly notice it it is so small but it will add up on the content owner's side. (If popular enough of course).

- Full accountability and transparency. An artists will be able to look at the block-chain, look up a specific key that corresponds with a specific song and you have a full record of all plays and the exact amount of money you have right to. (No need for any middle men!!!) IMO this is a very important step forward.

- No more adds! This is HUGE! The current business model for platforms like YouTube, Facebook etc is advertising. They sell your attention span to the advertisers and they also sell your information to the advertisers (and others of course) that in turn use that data to better target the adverts back at you.

There are all sorts of issues of privacy, asymmetric power relationships between the platforms and their clients and between the platforms and the advertisers. The platforms have huge power to manipulate the users and huge amounts of information to sell to third parties (often stuff you don't even know about yourself!). This in itself is one of the biggest problems that society faces. Any technology that allows us to move away from the current advertisement model is a good thing.

The platforms like Google and Facebook currently have no choice but to use the advertisement model because they have no other business model. That changes with true micro payment systems. This allows a new business model based on fair payment based on actual usage.

And the micro payment model goes both ways! Say you make a good post on FB and it is shared a million times. Now you just get an ego kick out of it (maybe) but what if you could get some money back for the fact that you are effectively a content creator on the platform? You are helping making FB more interesting for users, you should have a share of the profits.

Alistair
I'm not reading all of that on my saturday bro. pretty much it seems all you're saying is "no you're wrong" anyways.
Old 7th April 2020
  #124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearrhea View Post
I'm not reading all of that on my saturday bro. pretty much it seems all you're saying is "no you're wrong" anyways.
Well - he’s actually informing you WHY he thinks you’re wrong.

You can ignore it of course, but if you read it you might learn something.

Which of course, is the problem pointed out with your post. You think the music industry streaming business model is “wrong” - but you don’t really know anything about the music business, streaming or how it works.

And if you ignore informative posts - you never will!

Why bother posting on a discussion forum if you’re not going to listen to people who disagree with you?
Old 7th April 2020
  #125
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post

Why bother posting on a discussion forum if you’re not going to listen to people who disagree with you?
Because this is the Internet. Where, like the world at large, the intelligent are full of doubts and the stupid are full of confidence. Only more so.

See any lengthy GS thread on the subjects of sample rates, analog vs. digital, the music business, quality of current music, etc. for examples.
Old 7th April 2020
  #126
Gear Nut
 

is the music business a conclusive entity in the universe or something?


Old 8th April 2020
  #127
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianww View Post
Because this is the Internet. Where, like the world at large, the intelligent are full of doubts and the stupid are full of confidence. Only more so.

See any lengthy GS thread on the subjects of sample rates, analog vs. digital, the music business, quality of current music, etc. for examples.
In that spirit - will you stop making sense?! It doesn’t fit in...!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearrhea View Post
is the music business a conclusive entity in the universe or something?


Not entirely sure what a “conclusive entity” is. But as an industry, it does have norms, conventions and an established structure; it has a history of how things have been done, and verifiable stats etc.
Old 8th April 2020
  #128
Gear Addict
Streaming is great, Major labels dictating what gets streamed or not, spending tons of $$$ on artists when they go viral etc, is not.

Until you get those 3 labels to stop dictating to us our listening enjoyment for profit, then it'll go in the right direction.

Hip hop Is currently the music of choice to get pushed, even though most of the songs and artists are really sub par with big mouth personalities to make up for the lack of talent that they have. 4 years ago it was dance, it's cyclical.

Also, I understand that people need to get paid, but why is every vocal producer out there getting paid to tune, time every scratch vocal that some dumbass "artist" made, then next thing you know, the artist is a star only because of a vocal editor and nothing else. Drake is a really good example of that, and I know that his vocal editor doesnt make half as much as the artist, yet the artist, label gets to reap the rewards, and the people editing get pennies?

Everytime I hear new artists blowing up in hip hop etc, I keep on thinking, who's the sucker that edited all those vocals, and for what? to get a tiny slice of the pie, just so the artist can reap all the rewards and annoy listeners in the process because everything sounds so unnatural.

My take here with modern music is this.

Find a vocal editor, find lyricists, have a big mouth and boast, and have a massive PR, and be young. If you're a girl, be hot but weird looking, so you're not blatantly looking hot. Or just be a model. I wish I was making this stuff up for sarcasm, but these days, it's the key to make it.

Extra pointers:

Talk about guns and killing people
Talk about doing drugs
Talk about having sex with no condom on and getting a plan B for the woman.
Talk about money you have and what you own.

If you're a girl:

Talk about relationships, about being weird but you're not really weird.
Make songs off of weird beats.
Talk about how hot you are and men will chase it.
Everything has to blatantly be heterosexual.

Current rate for Spotify: 1 stream = .0035 , 1mil = 3500 usd. That's how I know my ballpark about. If I can get a mil on a song then it adds up, if you get 5 then 10 songs at 1 mil, that's 35000 a year on 1 platform, if you get apple music too, thats extra and they pay more per stream.

Financially It goes like this:

Streams
Soundexchange
Ascap etc
Money for shows or appearances
Sponsors
Merch.

Thats how I can ballpark 150k to 200k a year, and then if there's record deals and pub deal involved, you can get extra advance money on it. 50k or 100k on a record deal per option, 200k + on pub, then you're inching closer to a mil, then you are already incorporated and spending less taxes that way.

Money aside, your productions need to be very very good, your music needs to be culturally relevant, you need to get lucky too. It is doable but like anything, requires time and dedication, hours of research and hope too. Most people dont have the time, dont want to make the effort, that's where I keep going, when everyone else stops as soon as it gets hard.

I'll eventually write a full go to book on all of it.

Streaming is the future of entertainment, you're either in or you're out.

Last edited by hellohead; 8th April 2020 at 05:44 PM..
Old 8th April 2020
  #129
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
In that spirit - will you stop making sense?! It doesn’t fit in...!


Not entirely sure what a “conclusive entity” is. But as an industry, it does have norms, conventions and an established structure; it has a history of how things have been done, and verifiable stats etc.
huh? it's one of the most erratic, unpredictable, evolving industries ever.
Old 9th April 2020
  #130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearrhea View Post
huh? it's one of the most erratic, unpredictable, evolving industries ever.
I thought we already established you don’t really know much about it?! The posts thus far certainly suggest that.

You’re right in a way. But it does evolve and there is a history and trend. Not to mention the general trend of human behaviour.

And one of those trends says that people won’t switch to a less convenient system out of some sort of moral obligation. We’ve seen that repeatedly. Your system is a less convenient system.
Old 10th April 2020
  #131
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianww View Post
Because this is the Internet. Where, like the world at large, the intelligent are full of doubts and the stupid are full of confidence. Only more so.

See any lengthy GS thread on the subjects of sample rates, analog vs. digital, the music business, quality of current music, etc. for examples.
Beginning to second guess who this post was intended for in this thread. Me, or people with 10,000+ posts they've dedicated time to instead of representing their deep music industry knowledge by being the CEO of a major label, or managing an international artist.


Old 10th April 2020
  #132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearrhea View Post
Beginning to second guess who this post was intended for in this thread. Me, or people with 10,000+ posts they've dedicated time to instead of representing their deep music industry knowledge by being the CEO of a major label, or managing an international artist.


Ha.

I know the CEO of a major label - it’s not a job I want! Or would be good at.

Since you’re having a dig at my post count - most of my posting is done when in transit - to my studio job - or when I’m waiting for clients - for my studio job. How about you?!

I do dabble in artist management but only as a byproduct of production work.

I just don’t really see what the problem is. No one thinks your idea is very good - that’s ok. If you still think it is, why not pitch it to one of the streaming majors? Or better yet start your own service!
Old 10th April 2020
  #133
https://www.fairplay.fm/

Saw this today. Interesting. But I can’t see it overpowering Spotify - the only people likely to prefer it are maybe other musos?
Old 10th April 2020
  #134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgod View Post
Why would you be automatically entitled based on how hard you worked at something? Why does your product deserve grocery money, yet alone anyone giving a ****? Most musicians are fungible, replaceable, in a saturated market that doesn't care for them.

Just because I spent 10,000 hours on my poem or mud-pie, does not entitle me to anything. There's no such thing as "inherent value" - only the value that others assign to it -- which in the case of musicians with no money - is apparently near-zero.

Musicians that religiously moralize people to pay them more are failed entrepreneurs trying to shame the customer into paying more.
And musicians that want to force it beyond social shaming, and via regulation, are failed entrepreneurs that want a government bailout.

If you care about getting their money, how about you actually provide something of value to them, a label, an aristocrat (old school artist funding ), etc. --- anyone?
Tough talk -- but it's a tough reality.

The 'music biz' can barely figure out what customers want. And they really do not care about what musicians want. Any more than the beef industry cares about what cattle want.

I've been watching the music biz since the mid-60s when I started getting serious about music and sound. It's an exploitive business run mostly by suits and bottom-liners who don't give two whits about actual music.

Somehow, though, musicians and other creatives manage to get some great records made and, now, at least, there are less tin-eared suits standing in the way of getting the music into folks' hands.

It's probably worth noting that the roughly $10/10EU monthly nut for a basic stream subscription is close to double estimates of what then-average music consumers WERE paying for music a month on average 5-10 years ago. But it would be nice if more of the money changing hands got into the pockets of the people actually making the music. The problem is that as the pie finally starts getting bigger, the powers that have been in the music biz have wrapped their MBAs (and other experts at wheedling money out of market processes) around the task of separating even bigger slices from the hands of their 'talent.'
Old 10th April 2020
  #135
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I've been watching the music biz since the mid-60s when I started getting serious about music and sound. It's an exploitive business run mostly by suits and bottom-liners who don't give two whits about actual music.
Most businesses are like this.
Old 10th April 2020
  #136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Most businesses are like this.
Well, there are a lot of people whose personal, ethical values rise little higher than those that have dominated the music biz, so, certainly, they will run businesses at the ethical level they're used to operating at.

That said, while I've certainly known some sharks and sleazes (and worked for a few), I've often been treated with more respect in the mainstream business world as both a service provider and, in many ways, as a customer.

But, to be sure, the 'problem' is people and, as the 'good book'* pointed out, greed (love of money, avarice, whatever one wants to call the love of excess, the constant grasping for more even after one doesn't know what to do with what he has).


*I'm an agnostic, but I've got a a fair bit of familiarity with the Bible as well as other religious/ethical traditions (the burden of a broad education, )...


I've shared this bit of (self-obvious) practical wisdom before...


[click image to read more]
Old 10th April 2020
  #137
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Well, there are a lot of people whose personal, ethical values rise little higher than those that have dominated the music biz, so, certainly, they will run businesses at the ethical level they're used to operating at.

That said, while I've certainly known some sharks and sleazes (and worked for a few), I've often been treated with more respect in the mainstream business world as both a service provider and, in many ways, as a customer.

But, to be sure, the 'problem' is people and, as the 'good book'* pointed out, greed (love of money, avarice, whatever one wants to call the love of excess, the constant grasping for more even after one doesn't know what to do with what he has).


*I'm an agnostic, but I've got a a fair bit of familiarity with the Bible as well as other religious/ethical traditions (the burden of a broad education, )...


I've shared this bit of (self-obvious) practical wisdom before...


[click image to read more]
Wow. “The rest of us” is where I fit in. Rob from the right to give to the poor after taking my half of course, all while pretending to be a decent guy.
Old 10th April 2020
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Wow. “The rest of us” is where I fit in. Rob from the right to give to the poor after taking my half of course, all while pretending to be a decent guy.



You'll probably note I didn't write "... the rest of you."
Old 11th April 2020
  #139
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post



You'll probably note I didn't write "... the rest of you."

Duly noted.
Topic:
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