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The Word "Music Producer" has Lost all Meaning
Old 20th January 2020
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Because it relates to someone else's "bottom line" I cannot call myself a doctor unless I am a member of the AMA or have a PHD degree, however I can call myself a "producer" even if I know NOTHING about production or producing. So if some one is looking for a producer it would seem that they would want someone who knows what they are doing.

You are a moderator and that means something here on GS. No one can have the title "moderator" here unless they are given that title by the owner of this forum. So I guess the statement "I don’t understand why it matters what someone calls themselves..." is really not true unless you want to make everyone a "moderator". FWIW
This guy gets it.

Let me explain a little.

Most artists have short careers. Most A&Rs have short careers, less than 3 years on average it seems in my experience. Most independent artists don't get signed. Most singers and rappers are competing with each other and see other artists as competitors. Most music producers are in the background unlike artists.

So, if you ask an artist who their music producer is, it's unlikely they will pass their info on in most cases as they see you as 'their producer'. That means, in order to find a music producer to hire you have to Google it. You then get 1,090,000,000 results even though there are maybe 5-10 actual Music Producers for hire in your city. It's a problem.

In my last city I was on the first page of Google so it was fine. Since I've moved to LA I'm on about page 6 or 7. In front of me are maybe 2 or 3 actual music producers and the rest are schools and blogs teaching music production and a bunch of fake music producers. The public doesn't know how to sift through a hundred pages to find a real music producer.

Then we have the problem of people not even knowing what a music producer does anymore and thinking that they make beats from loops on a laptop.

So it's a problem for those that do it professionally to be found.

I met with a Music Producer last week who has worked with 2 Pac, Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, has around 200 top 40 hits, 40 multiplatinum singles and has been advertising himself on Craigslist for super low rates as low as $25 an hour over the last 10 years including studio time for his LA studio in North Hollywood. Recently he has been able to up it to $45 for some clients but some he still has to do at only $25. This is what is happening. So if anyone says it doesn't matter what people call themselves, it matters to those who do it for a living.

So I'm not so much as complaining as trying to educate young artists the differences between the older guys that use the name 'Music Producer' who often have a large understanding of music theory, sound design and the market trends as to what will be popular compared to all the young kids deciding to call themselves a music producer most of which, don't even know or care what the term used to mean or in my opinion, should still mean. All they have to do is just call themselves a 'beat-maker' like Timberland did and everything will go back to normal. Now even professional beat-makers use the word 'music producer' instead.

The trend of beat-makers using the term 'music producer' and more and more kids getting into beat-making because anyone can re-arrange some loops has already caused a negative effect for many professional music producers in the industry. Not because the kids are competition. They're not. But because they have caused confusion among the meaning of the word Music Producer which has made it hard for new artists to find and hire them. Most new artists think that a Music Producer is just someone who makes beats from loops in Garage Band because their friend is a 'music producer' too lol. So it's a problem for those that are professionals as it makes it hard for artists to find them and hire them or even to know to look for them in the first place. If you're a music producer and you don't have a recent connection with a sign artist (who will probably have a short career) or with an A&R (who will probably not work there as an A&R much longer), it will effect you. So eventually it effects almost all professional music producers. This is why you started seeing music producers putting 'prod. by …...' on their artists songs. Then all the beat-makers started doing it even though they just made the beat/instrumental and didn't produce the song. So like I said, those who don't think it's a problem just haven't met many professional music producers.

Last edited by tomwatson; 20th January 2020 at 02:53 PM..
Old 20th January 2020
  #62
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I.R.Baboon's Avatar
At the end of the day, if you produce music, you're a producer. Age, experience, equipment, location are all irrelevant.

The analogy of someone who goes out, buys a knife and a chopping board and says they're a chef: if lots of people want to eat their food and they get paid for it, they're a professional chef.

McDonalds is some of the most popular "cuisine" on the planet. Does that mean it's equal to a Michelin star restaurant? Depends who you are and your expectations.
Personally i wouldn't touch it, but probably the people that stuff their faces with it every day would find Michelin star food weird and would most likely prefer a big Mac ....... etc etc.
Old 20th January 2020
  #63
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.R.Baboon View Post
At the end of the day, if you produce music, you're a producer. Age, experience, equipment, location are all irrelevant.

The analogy of someone who goes out, buys a knife and a chopping board and says they're a chef: if lots of people want to eat their food and they get paid for it, they're a professional chef.
Note how the above two are different though; in the first case you only say "if you produce music", and in the second it's "get paid for it" and "professional".

The analogy would be "if you cook you're a chef". No caveats.

The post before yours illustrates the problem that the OP is talking about.
Old 21st January 2020
  #64
Right.

Firstly - the general public doesn’t really google “producer”. The general public, assuming they’re into music and want to make a record, generally don’t know they need a producer - they want a “studio”, and they either don’t know what a producer does or they assume the “studio guy” just does that for them.

Once they get a bit more clued up - your track record is your Google. Your more enlightened artist checks out his fave records, sees who’s done them and goes for those guys. So the most important thing you can do is make sure if someone’s looking for you, they can find you.

If I put “Tom Watson record producer” into google, are you the first link? What about “Tom Watson music”, or “Tom Watson records” or something? That makes sense for you - if you’re not coming up first, then you need to try to get that sorted.

I’m lucky - you google me, you get me, THEN the Pope from around the 1600s, and a few pages down some town planner guy from Watford. The Pope is terrible at networking....

I don’t know I’ve ever had an enquiry from someone googling producers in my city - you’re right, you get all the local studios and courses first. Not usually the way it works, unless you’re really gagging to work for anyone.

Your producer mate...well, firstly he sounds like a writer/producer rather than a record producer, which means he’s suffering a little from not being flavour of the month...people who are writers as well have to adapt or they burn bright then fade out. I’m not surprised if his “hits” were 20 years ago he’s not a list. It’s easier if you produce bands - you can stay jobbing and “in style” for a lot longer.

I do get the concern - but I think you’re looking in the wrong place for quality clients. Quality clients, unless very naive and real undiscovered diamonds, don’t google “producer” for someone to work with.

Now - what I WOULD like to stamp out is people listing vague credits - “worked with...” with no specific project or role. If I list a credit, I’ll put what I did and make sure it’s in the label copy.

I’ve had people try to take credit for whole albums I’ve done if they’ve done a day or so on the project...which is sneaky if not 100% lying. I’ve seen people claim awards they’ve not received even! Honesty is much more credible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwatson View Post
This guy gets it.

Let me explain a little.

Most artists have short careers. Most A&Rs have short careers, less than 3 years on average it seems in my experience. Most independent artists don't get signed. Most singers and rappers are competing with each other and see other artists as competitors. Most music producers are in the background unlike artists.

So, if you ask an artist who their music producer is, it's unlikely they will pass their info on in most cases as they see you as 'their producer'. That means, in order to find a music producer to hire you have to Google it. You then get 1,090,000,000 results even though there are maybe 5-10 actual Music Producers for hire in your city. It's a problem.

In my last city I was on the first page of Google so it was fine. Since I've moved to LA I'm on about page 6 or 7. In front of me are maybe 2 or 3 actual music producers and the rest are schools and blogs teaching music production and a bunch of fake music producers. The public doesn't know how to sift through a hundred pages to find a real music producer.

Then we have the problem of people not even knowing what a music producer does anymore and thinking that they make beats from loops on a laptop.

So it's a problem for those that do it professionally to be found.

I met with a Music Producer last week who has worked with 2 Pac, Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, has around 200 top 40 hits, 40 multiplatinum singles and has been advertising himself on Craigslist for super low rates as low as $25 an hour over the last 10 years including studio time for his LA studio in North Hollywood. Recently he has been able to up it to $45 for some clients but some he still has to do at only $25. This is what is happening. So if anyone says it doesn't matter what people call themselves, it matters to those who do it for a living.

So I'm not so much as complaining as trying to educate young artists the differences between the older guys that use the name 'Music Producer' who often have a large understanding of music theory, sound design and the market trends as to what will be popular compared to all the young kids deciding to call themselves a music producer most of which, don't even know or care what the term used to mean or in my opinion, should still mean. All they have to do is just call themselves a 'beat-maker' like Timberland did and everything will go back to normal. Now even professional beat-makers use the word 'music producer' instead.

The trend of beat-makers using the term 'music producer' and more and more kids getting into beat-making because anyone can re-arrange some loops has already caused a negative effect for many professional music producers in the industry. Not because the kids are competition. They're not. But because they have caused confusion among the meaning of the word Music Producer which has made it hard for new artists to find and hire them. Most new artists think that a Music Producer is just someone who makes beats from loops in Garage Band because their friend is a 'music producer' too lol. So it's a problem for those that are professionals as it makes it hard for artists to find them and hire them or even to know to look for them in the first place. If you're a music producer and you don't have a recent connection with a sign artist (who will probably have a short career) or with an A&R (who will probably not work there as an A&R much longer), it will effect you. So eventually it effects almost all professional music producers. This is why you started seeing music producers putting 'prod. by …...' on their artists songs. Then all the beat-makers started doing it even though they just made the beat/instrumental and didn't produce the song. So like I said, those who don't think it's a problem just haven't met many professional music producers.
Old 21st January 2020
  #65
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boombapdame's Avatar
 

Who @ tomwatson was the producer you met?
Old 21st January 2020
  #66
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Old 21st January 2020
  #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternalsound View Post


I always thought "Recording Engineer" was self gloating myself. Maybe a "Recording Tech"??

I'd love to throw a little diffy-q at a random ..."Recording Engineer".

Then to throw fuel into the fire and fight for the title.

Life can be humerus ..that is for sure.
I always had a soft spot for knobber.

But it's probably a bit too inside. Wouldn't put it on a biz card. Biz card... do we still have those?
Old 21st January 2020
  #68
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Oh lord... Been at it since 2003! That's old school...

Sorry, but even back in the nineties, anyone with a Dr. Rhythm and a set of headphones was calling themselves a producer.
Old 21st January 2020
  #69
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I.R.Baboon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Note how the above two are different though; in the first case you only say "if you produce music", and in the second it's "get paid for it" and "professional".

The analogy would be "if you cook you're a chef". No caveats.

The post before yours illustrates the problem that the OP is talking about.
Yes, you've got a good point there.

The thing is, official titles only mean something when people's physical or mental well-being are at risk.

So, you can't call yourself a pilot or a surgeon when you're not one.

Or a doctor or electrician or primary school teacher.

But saying you're a producer when you're not one (when measured by the standards of someone thinking about old school producers) doesn't actually hurt anyone, although some modern tracks can be kinda painful to listen to.
So the governments of the world place no sanction on it.

I work on a lot of modern urban music, including mumble rap, and some of it is so badly, cheaply, lazily, clumsily and thoughtlessly produced, it makes me chuckle.

But i'm also aware that's kinda the point. There's one characteristic that that music must fulfill, which is that the parents and other older people around the kids who are listening to it must, unreservedly, thing it's a pile of crap . Then it has done it's job.
Old 21st January 2020
  #70
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.R.Baboon View Post
Yes, you've got a good point there.

The thing is, official titles only mean something when people's physical or mental well-being are at risk.

So, you can't call yourself a pilot or a surgeon when you're not one.

Or a doctor or psychotherapist or primary school teacher.

But saying you're a producer when you're not one (when measured by the standards of someone thinking about old school producers) doesn't actually hurt anyone, although some modern tracks can be kinda painful to listen to.
So the governments of the world don't put any sanction on it.
I don't think anyone is advocating that governments put 'sanctions on it' though, right?

As for 'harm'; well, if you go out and get yourself a "producer" and it isn't, and you've spent the money, then yeah, you're not in the same tricky spot as if a guy called himself a surgeon but really wasn't and started cutting into you while not really knowing what he was doing... but you still spent money on something and didn't get what you thought you would get, right?

So you're right in that it isn't the end of the world.
And you're right that language is used the way it's used.

But we can still try to have words keep a commonly accepted meaning, or a meaning that makes more sense. The culture we live in today to me seems like one where everyone proclaims their right to just use language any way they want and any word really means whatever that person says it means because we're all equal and we all have a right to an opinion so just be quiet and accept it.. and it's at this point I'd point my finger in some directions if discussing politics was allowed, but alas..

I guess all I'm saying is that it's not the end of the world, and just as people will (mis)use the word (?) others will try to keep the usage more accurate (?), and that's something we all have to deal with I guess.
Old 21st January 2020
  #71
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boombapdame's Avatar
 

You @ I.R.Baboon need to find some non mumble rap talent.

When @ mattiasnyc I think of a producer I think of the person that guides the vocal talent to get the best performance as recording is an art.
Old 21st January 2020
  #72
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I.R.Baboon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
You @ I.R.Baboon need to find some non mumble rap talent.
I'm a mastering engineer, so it's not up to me to find talent, i'll master anything that is sent to me!
Old 21st January 2020
  #73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammiedodger666 View Post
Oh lord... Been at it since 2003! That's old school...

Sorry, but even back in the nineties, anyone with a Dr. Rhythm and a set of headphones was calling themselves a producer.
I remember roiling online debates back around the turn of the century about whether those using music production tools like sampling, looping and other 'music assembly' tools were musicians. Some folks took the practical position that those creating music were, themselves some form of musician. Others, of course, suggested that those folks were simply repackaging and reassembling other's playing. Both positions had a certain sense to them, seemed like. At one point I suggested that such folks could legitimately call themselves music producers, even if they couldn't call themselves instrumentalists. I guess others had the same thinking.
Old 21st January 2020
  #74
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I remember roiling online debates back around the turn of the century about whether those using music production tools like sampling, looping and other 'music assembly' tools were musicians. Some folks took the practical position that those creating music were, themselves some form of musician. Others, of course, suggested that those folks were simply repackaging and reassembling other's playing. Both positions had a certain sense to them, seemed like. At one point I suggested that such folks could legitimately call themselves music producers, even if they couldn't call themselves instrumentalists. I guess others had the same thinking.
My take is, if it's legal, I'll use it. If it's a sample, a vocal, guitar line, synth line etc etc I'll use it if it works for me. If i play guitar, keyboard etc etc that's good. I dont think one is better than the other. No one uses a sample like I would, no one would match pieces of music like I do. I am really open minded and will use anything if it sounds good. A lot of times I record all the vocals, then try a bunch of different music to see what would work best, that way you can get unconventional results out of a song. Sometimes I speed up the vocals, put the vocals up or down, formant them, autotune or leave them as is, and then I do the same with samples, I transpose, change their tempo etc, I will do everything so the final result is great.
Old 21st January 2020
  #75
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellohead View Post
My take is, if it's legal, I'll use it. If it's a sample, a vocal, guitar line, synth line etc etc I'll use it if it works for me. If i play guitar, keyboard etc etc that's good. I dont think one is better than the other. No one uses a sample like I would, no one would match pieces of music like I do. I am really open minded and will use anything if it sounds good. A lot of times I record all the vocals, then try a bunch of different music to see what would work best, that way you can get unconventional results out of a song. Sometimes I speed up the vocals, put the vocals up or down, formant them, autotune or leave them as is, and then I do the same with samples, I transpose, change their tempo etc, I will do everything so the final result is great.
That's not dissimilar to my own approach. I play moderately sophisticated guitar, some banjo and mandolin, and have been somewhat fluid on simple keyboard work at times (I did a live, all-improv keyboard synth echo loop act in the 90s), but I nonetheless don't have any problem using virtualized instruments or samples or even commercial sample loops -- if the music works for me. I mean, I could hire outside musicians to come in. No one would kvetch about that, I don't imagine, as long as I didn't try to claim credit for their playing. I don't have any problems using or acknowledging the use of prefabs in my work -- as long as the end results work.
Old 21st January 2020
  #76
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
That's not dissimilar to my own approach. I play moderately sophisticated guitar, some banjo and mandolin, and have been somewhat fluid on simple keyboard work at times (I did a live, all-improv keyboard synth echo loop act in the 90s), but I nonetheless don't have any problem using virtualized instruments or samples or even commercial sample loops -- if the music works for me. I mean, I could hire outside musicians to come in. No one would kvetch about that, I don't imagine, as long as I didn't try to claim credit for their playing. I don't have any problems using or acknowledging the use of prefabs in my work -- as long as the end results work.
That's great!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammiedodger666 View Post
Oh lord... Been at it since 2003! That's old school...

Sorry, but even back in the nineties, anyone with a Dr. Rhythm and a set of headphones was calling themselves a producer.
Slightly ironically - there are those "old school" producers who work with bands and so on who would say the same about the writer-producer approach that the OP seems to deal in! Which I'm not saying I agree with at all - there's after all plenty of approaches to production - but it is another viewpoint.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #78
I'd like to hear more from people with experience being or working with an actual "record producer." How do some well known producers (Daniel Lanois, Eric Valentine, Tchad Blake, and from the past...Phil Spector, Brian Wilson, George Martin etc.) work. What do they or did they do exactly, in their role as producer?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #79
Most of the producers I work with are from the Classical or Jazz idioms so they may have a different approach than a "pop" music "producer" would have. They arrange for the hall, for the engineer, for the time and negotiate the rate of pay. When the sessions are over they may want to do the editing themselves or sit in on the editing sessions and when it is ready they will find a mastering engineer to do the mastering. They are all very professional and keep a tight reign on the sessions and know when something sounds good and when to do a retake. I guess the one main thing is that they are all excellent musicians in their own right and can talk "musician talk" and keep the sessions moving. FWIW

Last edited by Thomas W. Bethe; 3 weeks ago at 02:02 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Most of the producers I work with are from the Classical or Jazz idioms so they may have a different approach than a "pop" music "producer would have. They arrange for the hall, for the engineer, for the time and negotiate the rate of pay. When the sessions are over they may want to do the editing themselves or sit in on the editing sessions and when it is ready they will find a mastering engineer to do the mastering. They are all very professional and keep a tight reign on the sessions and know when something sounds good and when to do a retake. I guess the one main thing is that they are all excellent musicians in their own right and can talk "musician talk" and keep the sessions moving. FWIW
The more moving parts, the more you really need to be organized.

When I was coming up, I'd say most folks seemed to think of the producer as the guy in between the entity who arranged the money (executive producer, typically with or for a label) and the musicians... doing anything that fell in between, from booking facilities, rentals, hiring ancillary musicians, sometimes arranging and scoring those ancillary parts, overseeing key sessions, doing whatever it took to keep things going. (Of course, bigtime producers often had assistants doing grunt work. I'm told. )
Old 3 weeks ago
  #81
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Plush's Avatar
Here in Chicago, a fake producer, or a pro-doo-sah who is a sham, gets dressed down in the studio. Sometimes they get kicked out.

We self police.

It's a piece of crap that posters here are saying that anyone can style themselves a producer.

Real producers who make hits tell them to shut their mouth.

We have pride in real achievement. In real production.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Here in Chicago, a fake producer, or a pro-doo-sah who is a sham, gets dressed down in the studio. Sometimes they get kicked out.

We self police.

It's a piece of crap that posters here are saying that anyone can style themselves a producer.

Real producers who make hits tell them to shut their mouth.

We have pride in real achievement. In real production.
You are living in the past.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #83
Gear Nut
We all can't be as cool as those in shi-cah-go... thankfully
Old 3 weeks ago
  #84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Here in Chicago, a fake producer, or a pro-doo-sah who is a sham, gets dressed down in the studio. Sometimes they get kicked out.
How would you define a "fake" producer? I mean in most circumstances, someone who's been fronting and doesn't know what they're doing gets found out....but how is it different in chicago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
It's a piece of crap that posters here are saying that anyone can style themselves a producer.
Well of course they can - IF they're producing music. Whether or not they're a PROFESSIONAL producer making a living is another thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Real producers who make hits tell them to shut their mouth.
Most working producers don't make "hits". Some have the occasional "hit"; many go through their entire career making a living, making great records, but never having a "hit". That counts though doesn't it? I hope so!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
We have pride in real achievement. In real production.
Define "real" production? Genuine question..in fact, can you define unreal production too, or fake production?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #85
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Plush's Avatar
My point above is that real bona fide producers call out fakes here in my town.

I define a fake as someone who cannot draw out the best performance from their artist. That would be the first and most vital task of being a producer.

Producers with hits kick the fake producer out of the studio in Chicago. These producers with hits are the real thing with a track record.

I ONLY want to work with professional producers, not any others.

No, I will not define "real" production for you. YOU already know very well what I'm talking about.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #86
Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpe View Post
We all can't be as cool as those in shi-cah-go... thankfully
Especially not in winter. Beware the Hawk.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
My point above is that real bona fide producers call out fakes here in my town.

I define a fake as someone who cannot draw out the best performance from their artist. That would be the first and most vital task of being a producer.
Well that's fair enough, and certainly separates the "beatmaker" or writer from the producer. Obviously beatmakers CAN be producers, lots of great vocal producers who also program and write!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Producers with hits kick the fake producer out of the studio in Chicago. These producers with hits are the real thing with a track record.
This I don't understand. Who books 2 producers for a session? Even if one of them turns out to be a fraud, why is he booked as a producer? And if he's not the client, why is the producer kicking people out of the studio? If the producer IS the client and has this power, why is he booking another producer?

I just don't understand the logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I ONLY want to work with professional producers, not any others.
I'd agree in an ideal world. In a non-ideal world, I'm happy to engineer for a writer who's maybe inexperienced in vocal production, and take over some of that role. And then get credited as such hopefully!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
No, I will not define "real" production for you. YOU already know very well what I'm talking about.
That's cool - didn't know if you were implying people who were programming as opposed to directing "real" musicians were somehow inferior. It wasn't clear. Obviously both are valid.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #88
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I had a "twenty something" intern who worked here for two weeks. He informed me at the end of that time period that "all I want to do from now on is mastering, I don't want to do anymore sh!t work like transferring tapes to the computer". I told him that we did a lot of different things here and mastering was only one of the things we do and if he wanted to continue to work here he had to do what was needed to make money. He left the company saying that anything below mastering was beneath him and his abilities. I have been a mastering engineer for over 25 years and I still do a lot of tape and record transfers to make money for the company so I can employ interns. While here he told me that he had invented a mastering preset that he used on all his mastering work but I told him that there is no such "one preset" that covers all the work we do. He begged to differ. He is, IMHO, heading down a road that is going to be very rough if he continues with his current attitude. FWIW
I think the problem is how corporations have created so many audio engineering, recording, and producer programs. The first program I attended, by the end of the first quarter, the teachers were telling the students to charge $150-250 per hour for mixing and mastering services they never fully understood how to complete. They hadn’t even been taught anything on those topics at all and barely understood the difference between dynamic and time based processors.

I remember being invited to my teachers studio after another student paid him $500 to mix and master a track. He explained to my fellow student that the work should take up to 4 hours and he was giving the student a 50% discount. The teacher literally worked on it for a hour and told the student he actually went overtime and they should be happy with the results.

Even though the school was for Audio Engineering, they made students market themselves as producers, engineers, label owners, or artist before putting out any work.

One of my former classmates made $45k during our spring break “mixing and mastering” 3 albums from overseas. Each album was a complete mess and no matter what suggestions we provided him, he was right, and we were wrong because he is getting a “check”. Now a days I hear he can’t get any clients.

I remember one of my many teachers bragging about his “mastering chain”. He only does it one way. He has a preset full of UAD processors. When we had an artist come in for a master class, our teacher couldn’t wait to ask the artist (his former student) about his mastering chain. The persons reply was, “I never go into mastering expecting to follow the same chain. Each project is different and requires different processing.”

Our teach jumped up and left the room in anger. I was a happy student at that moment.

Last story. The last program I was a part of, the students did nothing to work on their artistry or engineering. They were very entitled. We had 12 studios we could use and I was always the only one there. They would come hours late to class or not at all, never submitted homework, never around for group projects, and would expect to be passed because they paid the school $48-80k, and then the school would adjust for them.

Out of 400+ Alumni from 3 audio programs (recording, production, software programming), I only consider 5 of my Alumni to be my brother or sister engineer. The rest are customers.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #89
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxdkModexxx View Post
I think the problem is how corporations have created so many audio engineering, recording, and producer programs. The first program I attended, by the end of the first quarter, the teachers were telling the students to charge $150-250 per hour for mixing and mastering services they never fully understood how to complete. They hadn’t even been taught anything on those topics at all and barely understood the difference between dynamic and time based processors.

I remember being invited to my teachers studio after another student paid him $500 to mix and master a track. He explained to my fellow student that the work should take up to 4 hours and he was giving the student a 50% discount. The teacher literally worked on it for a hour and told the student he actually went overtime and they should be happy with the results.

Even though the school was for Audio Engineering, they made students market themselves as producers, engineers, label owners, or artist before putting out any work.

One of my former classmates made $45k during our spring break “mixing and mastering” 3 albums from overseas. Each album was a complete mess and no matter what suggestions we provided him, he was right, and we were wrong because he is getting a “check”. Now a days I hear he can’t get any clients.

I remember one of my many teachers bragging about his “mastering chain”. He only does it one way. He has a preset full of UAD processors. When we had an artist come in for a master class, our teacher couldn’t wait to ask the artist (his former student) about his mastering chain. The persons reply was, “I never go into mastering expecting to follow the same chain. Each project is different and requires different processing.”

Our teach jumped up and left the room in anger. I was a happy student at that moment.

Last story. The last program I was a part of, the students did nothing to work on their artistry or engineering. They were very entitled. We had 12 studios we could use and I was always the only one there. They would come hours late to class or not at all, never submitted homework, never around for group projects, and would expect to be passed because they paid the school $48-80k, and then the school would adjust for them.

Out of 400+ Alumni from 3 audio programs (recording, production, software programming), I only consider 5 of my Alumni to be my brother or sister engineer. The rest are customers.
Thanks for that horror story. It seems to help demonstrate the problematic aspects of so-called 'loan mill schools' that sell big dreams at fairly high prices and then, in too many cases, fail to deliver -- or perhaps, in the case of the example above, fail to hold their students to responsible continuation/completion responsibilities. (Because, of course, who's going to want to go into upper 5 or even 6 figures of debt at a school where only a handful complete the course or graduate?)

It really made me appreciate the time I spent in a couple of next-to-free community college programs. Neither was perfect (one had lots of hands on time but little formal education, the other had lots of book learnin' -- a scientific calculator was a course requirement -- and had some very good gear for a j.c. program -- but getting hands on at that school was tough, particularly since they were rebuilding the main studio all during my third semester and well into the fourth) but that kind of worked out pretty well for me. I got lots of time on the sort of affordable 1" TASCAM 16 track I'd see a lot of over the next decade but still got great lectures and at least some exposure and experience on the MCI 16 2"/Neve setup at the other school. (The TASCAM school went out of the studio training 'biz' earlier this decade; the program was listed as vocational -- but too few grads ended up working in the field, apparently.)
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Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Well that's fair enough, and certainly separates the "beatmaker" or writer from the producer. Obviously beatmakers CAN be producers, lots of great vocal producers who also program and write!



This I don't understand. Who books 2 producers for a session? Even if one of them turns out to be a fraud, why is he booked as a producer? And if he's not the client, why is the producer kicking people out of the studio? If the producer IS the client and has this power, why is he booking another producer?

I just don't understand the logic.

Plush says[/COLOR]--"Fake producers are only tolerated for a little while. Then they are kicked out either by a big name producer who is asked to come over and kick them out or the big name producer is asked to take time away from his session in a different studio in the same building. He comes over and kicks out the fake producer. We don't want any fakes."



I'd agree in an ideal world. In a non-ideal world, I'm happy to engineer for a writer who's maybe inexperienced in vocal production, and take over some of that role. And then get credited as such hopefully!



That's cool - didn't know if you were implying people who were programming as opposed to directing "real" musicians were somehow inferior. It wasn't clear. Obviously both are valid.
Multi studio complex. Hitmaking producers are on the scene. They discipline and kick out a fake producer. They are asked to come in from their session in a different part of the building. Then they kick the fake out the front door. Then back to their session.

There is also a gun on the console.
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